Russian Special Forces blew up & then stormed the Caucasus school.

[stickdog]

I don't know who decided to take a school of little kids hostages, but I will point out that you couldn't come up with any plan to make Chechen rebels appear more heinous.

According to some of the survivors, the terrorists kept control of their hostages by saying that for every person who moved, they'd shoot 15 random people. This I buy completely. But the official story of what happened on the last day goes something like this:

http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=38844

Troops surrounding School Number One in the small Caucasus town of Beslan were expecting another long day of waiting and negotiations when suddenly all planning was thrown out of the window shortly after 10:20 BST. Reports suggested the militants had agreed to let Russian authorities retrieve the bodies of 10 to 20 hostages who had been killed. Emergency personnel went to get the bodies, and the gunmen began setting off bombs and opening fire on people around the school.

A group of near naked children and their mothers then began fleeing from the school. Some gunmen - or women - left the school and began chasing the escapees, and Russian special forces began firing back. An explosion - thought to be the gunmen detonating charges - blew the roof off the school gym where hundreds of hostages where being held.

In the mayhem some of the gunmen - and at least two gun women - escaped with the fleeing hostages and were being hunted throughout the North Ossetia town toward the Chechen border.

About 100 bodies laid on the floor of the school gymnasium where the hostages were held for three days - some apparently killed when the roof collapsed.

The Russian Special Forces (RSFs) also reportly blew a hole in school "to help the hostages escape."


Sorry, but this "explanation" makes no sense whatsoever.

1) I suppose it was just a coincidence that the explosions starting going off shortly after the RSFs were allowed to approach the school.

2) 1000 people were being universally controlled by just 30 gunmen because of threats that if anybody even tried to escape, 15 others would be killed. So if the first explosions were "terrorist accidents" that had nothing to do with the special forces storming the building, why would a number of teachers and kids suddenly decide the time was right to make a break for it -- knowing what might happen to the others they left behind? This really doesn't make much sense. However, if the explosions were the initial part of a RSFs' assault on the terrorists, then their flight makes perfect sense.

3) Even if some hostages did decide to attempt escape in the confusion caused by a "terrorist accident", would any of the surviving terrorists really have run out of the building chasing them -- knowing that the whole school was surrounded by thousands of crack-shot RSFs? That would make them sitting ducks. And even if 100 hostages escaped in the confusion, the terrorists would still have 900 more to terrorize. So why let the entire hostage situation dissolve into immediate suicidal chaos just to go after a few escapees unless they were already under assault?

4) Finally, I suppose that it was just a coincidence that bombs that were supposedly located inside the gym later caused the roof to collapse, killing over 100 people and opening up the building so that they would be indistinguishable from bombs that came from above. And I'm sure the RSFs blew that hole in the side of building "to help the hostages escape" only long after the terrorists started chasing after hostages to gun them down for trying to escape -- making themselves sitting ducks for the RSFs in the process. Yes, to think that the RSFs actually blew holes in the building's side and roof as part of an initial assault on the terrorists would be simply ludicrous! Right?

Note that I'm not saying that the RSFs were necessarily wrong to storm the building. But I am saying that they are obviously lying through their teeth about what happened.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

1. Blowing entrances in doors, roofs and walls...

Using shaped charges and detcord is SOP in "Dynamic Entry" situations. It is not far-fetched or tinfoil territory to consider that was done.

One of the big problems is placement and getting your charges right, from the standpoint of explosive yield. Someone could have screwed up.

[Wonk]

2. Ah, but the real question is: did they have white plastic chairs, too?

[stickdog]

6. So I'm a tinfoil hatter because I think that Russian officials lied?

Just think of the absurdity of what you are saying. Am I supposed to refrain from questioning even Russian officials now? Because of Russian government's long history of honesty and transparency, right?

What about Baghdad Bob? I mean he was a government official. Right? So if I question what he said, does that make me a conspiracy nut as well?

[Nevernose]

8. Smithsonian magazine on white plastic chairs

http://www.smithsonianmag.si.edu/smithsonian/issues04/jul04/pdf/chair.pdf

The print version has photos -- Guatamala, Iraq, Rome, Kenya, Fiji, virtually everywhere on planet Earth with a population of more than a couple fo hunderd people has plastic white chairs. Really, really bizarre.

"That dawned on me recently after I started noticing The
Chair in news photographs from global trouble spots. In a
town on the West Bank, an indignant Yasser Arafat holds a
broken chair damaged by an Israeli military operation. In
Nigeria, contestants in a Miss World pageant are seated de-
murely on plastic chairs just before riots break out, killing
some 200 people. In Baghdad, U.S. administrator L. Paul
Bremer III, during a ceremony honoring Iraqi recruits, sits
on a white plastic chair as if on a throne.

...............

...in West Virginia, at roadside food stands in Vietnam, at a
rustic waterside tea garden in Istanbul, at a school princi-
pal’s office in Malaysia, in shallow seas off Bora-Bora (where
ster off plastic tables). Friends told me of seeing it at huge
village weddings in Afghanistan and Pakistan and in cinder-
block houses in Mexico."

[The_Casual_Observer]

3. Apparently, the Russians apply the rules used in US prisons

regarding hostage taking. This would seem to deter criminals, however it just might encourage terrorists.

[librechik]

4. A girl who escaped said the first thing the terrorists did

was booby trap everything and wire 18 bombs to the ceiling of the gym where they were holding everybody. I can believe that one or some of those bombs blew up the roof, yesespecially in a highceiling gym where the ceiling might be the roof.

The other stuff, who knows. I know firemen chop down walls to get people out quickly, so it could have happened like they said.

[TexasSissy]

25. I saw an interview with a girl (before the storming, end event)...

she said that the terrorists had killed some hostages. There were dead bodies laying around and in the hallway. She also said that one of the female terrorists had explosives on her body, and she tried to blow herself up near some of the hostages, but they were able to push her away far enough. But another terrorists had, in fact, blown herself up, killing some of the hostages with her.

Sounds like the Special Forces had nothing to lose by storming the school, if that's what happened.

[kayell]

5. I wouldn't be surprised, but I also wouldn't be surprised if it was really

stupid, fanatical asshole terrorists either. In fact, either way it was really stupid, fanatical asshole terrorists. It will be interesting to see what comes out (if it does) over the next few weeks. Putin has history here with the Moscow apartment explosions. Black, black ops indeed.

Meanwhile, I mourn for the children and their parents. This was a cruel, cruel act.

[mikehiggins]

7. I wouldn't be so fast to stick this on the Russkies

What is there to suggest things didn't fall out exactly as they said?

Nothing in this seems out of line with what people do who are willing to knock down the Trade Center, blow up railroads, attack unarmed civilians in the night and set off suicide bombs indiscriminately.

What is a more real question, to me at least, is how Bushco can claim to be making progress against world terrorism when hundreds of children can be cut down like this. Does this make us feel safer? Is this what Bushco is selling?

Maybe that is the question that should be getting asked: after three years of unremitting war against the terrorists and al Quida, just how does something like this happen?

Looks like the war on terror is working out just like the war on drugs. Throw lots of money around and claim to be making progress, even while the guy next to you is snorting coke.

We have to get new leadership. These guys have failed, even by George Bush's lifetime standards.

[stickdog]

12. Who is sticking it on the Russians? Whether or not they fired first,

whoever took hundreds of kids hostage bears ultimate culpability.

[gasperc]

9. although with 340 people killed including alot kids

the russian government will be working overtime to contain the backlash regardless of the hatred against the rebels

[TrustingDog]

10. I believe nothing, everything is sacred. I believe everything, nothing is

sacred.

[Zynx]

11. Got any proof or military knowledge to go with the tin foil?

>>1) I suppose it was just a coincidence that the explosions starting going off shortly after the RSFs were allowed to approach the school.<<

Proof that it wasn't? The explosions were not near the Russians that were approaching the school. They were on the other side of the building.

>>2) 1000 people were being universally controlled by just 30 gunmen because of threats that if anybody even tried to escape, 15 others would be killed. So if the first explosions were "terrorist accidents" that had nothing to do with the special forces storming the building, why would a number of teachers and kids suddenly decide the time was right to make a break for it <<

Desperation perhaps? You have gotten no food and no water and not even been able to use the bathroom for 48 hours. People in this situation, especially if there was a deliberate or accidental terrorist explosion, will most likely be most worried about themselves, not what will happen if they flee.

>>3) Even if some hostages did decide to attempt escape in the confusion caused by a "terrorist accident", would any of the surviving terrorists really have run out of the building chasing them -- knowing that the whole school was surrounded by thousands of crack-shot RSFs? <<

Stupid terrorists? The "they're getting away, catch/kill them" thing isn't exactly a hard thought process to see. It is incorrect and will result in you being killed, but most people's reflex would be to chase the escaping prisoners.

>>4) Finally, I suppose that it was just a coincidence that bombs that were supposedly located inside the gym later caused the roof to collapse, killing over 100 people and opening up the building so that they would be indistinguishable from bombs that came from above. <<

Reports from surivors indicate that the gym's upper walls and roof were lined with makeshift explosives and jerry-rigged detonators.

[stickdog]

13. Is this what it's come to? Suspecting ANY government of lying makes one

a tinfoil hatter?

1) So it was just a coincidence. Right?

2) Score one for you. This is my weakest point.

3) You are nuts on this one. Only submorons would expose themselves to a surrounding army to chase down a handful of fleeing hostages when they still had 950+ more to control and bargain with.

4) Yes. Of course, Putin knew this as well, which is why he ordered the initial strike through the roof.

Sure anything's possible. But what's more likely considering what we know about Russian history? Do we have ANY reason whatsover to prefer the less likely explanation over the more likely one other than the word of a few former and current KGB agents?

[stavka]

14. Read some history - to say the Russians embrace western values...

Is a bit short of the historical record when it comes to issues like this.

AS IS THEIR RIGHT by the way. (being a truely soverign nation, meaning they actually have WMD, and oil! and can say FU to the US)

[stickdog]

15. NYT eyewitness update

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/05/international/europe/05scene.html

First they produced their makeshift bombs. Some were large plastic beer bottles packed with explosives, others rectangular, bricklike packets, wrapped tightly in brown tape, the survivors said. The captors strung rope between the two basketball rims, and hung a line of these explosives overhead. The basketball nets themselves were tied shut, forming mesh baskets, into which more bombs were placed. Other bombs were arrayed along the floor and walls; the hostages estimated 20 in all, strung together with remarkable speed and skill.

The entire assembly was connected by blue and red wires, and at all times one of the terrorists held a black box with which the bombs could be made to explode. "They told us that one press of a button was enough to detonate everything," Ms. Bekoyeva said. Another group of hostages, about 10 or 15 boys, were ordered into the adjacent school building, where they stacked desks against doors and windows as a barricade for their captors' protection from Russian gunfire or advance.

The terrorists also spoke of politics, saying they wanted the release of six Ingush who had been detained after an insurgent raid in June left nearly 100 dead, and that they wanted to extend the war between Russia and its breakaway republic of Chechnya. They also showed strange signs of fastidiousness, considering their evident determination to die. Several terrorists, three hostages said, carried toothbrushes, razors and toothpaste, tucked beside their ammunition on their camouflage-clad chests.

(snip)

Then came the end, at shortly after 1 p.m. Five or so terrorists had checked on the explosives, the survivors said, and a few minutes later, the hall shook from an unexpected blast. The first bomb blew out the windows.

Did it bust some of the windows on the way in, too?

Note that the hostages had let several people go, so the Russian authorities knew about the hanging bombs. If they decided to attack (and I wouldn't blame them), sending a small missile into the gym would allow them to deal with the terrorists decisively without admitting that they took matters into their own hands. It would also explain why the terrorists -- knowing that they were under attack -- responded with a firefight rather than controlling the remaining living hostages or immediately exploding the rest of the bombs, which were probably less deadly than they pretended. Note that they were obviously at least pretending that all the bombs were linked together.

Also note that the fact that the first explosion busted ALL THE WINDOWS argues against a single homemade bomb. And if they really were ready to die and kill everyone there and they really had dozens of bombs with that kind of firepower, why didn't they use them ASAP?

[The Straight Story]

16. All a cover up I tell ya

In the tradition of conspiracies...There was no school. It was a building painted to look like a school. All the people were actors, I know because some of the dead were really alive later (at least someone with that name).

And the 'terrorists' did things which were not always 100% logical either, so it must all be fake. Bush planned the entire thing, he had to have because no one but him will do bad things (and he profited from it). And it all ties back to those two russian planes and even 9/11 (the people who were on the real planes which they later swapped for the holographic planes were flown to russia to start new lives (so they were told) and then killed aboard the two russian planes, to get people to ignore this all the school thing was staged on the same movie stage the moon landing was faked on.

It all makes sense when you drink enough and surf the net...

:)

[stickdog]

17. Well, either the terrorists did illogical things or the Russians did

a logical thing in a way that allowed them to logically blame the terrorists for initiating the assault?

What makes more sense to you? Do you really think Putin thought there was a better way out of this crisis? Because if the Russians didn't set off the initial blast, Putin & Bush must share the same lucky charm that allows them to reap the exact political benefits they desire from the illogical actions of their purported enemies.

[The Straight Story]

18. Far be it from me

to trust the russians :) Used to play them in chess tournaments though, quite strong players.

It may well have occured as you describe (and I was not poking fun at you earlier, just conspiracies in general) but even then not sure it was entirely bad. And I would not rush off blaming putin even if it did (ie, he may have requested a blast and some soldier may have went way off on a tangent, as a bare example).

Putin & Bush must share the same lucky charm that allows them to reap the exact political benefits they desire from the illogical actions of their purported enemies.

Now I don't see this as completely logical in some ways. I have heard people say 9/11 made bush look bad because it occured on his watch (had it went down under clinton would we be saying it was the pnac people trying to make clinton look bad?). I don't see how putin looks too good in all this - afterall had he done more to kick the chech butt then this may not have happend (taking the view from those who say it makes him look better because he did something about it...obviously not enough, so I cannot see how this makes him look good).

We could take entirely other views - that 9/11 occured when it did because the clintons wanted to punish bush for winning and hoped to unseat him, so as soon as he gets in there folks go to work on making him look bad. the economy tanked not because of the dot com bust but because clinton sabatoged it knowing that bush was coming in. Same in russia, the dems want bush and putin out, and blair too maybe, so they are funding and helping terrorists (like they did in spain)...

Ok, so it is all BS, but someone with enough time and desire could find dots to connect if their focus was on hating someone more than the facts. I think sometimes we get 'bushvision' and see everything through that filter.

I do read all the conspiracy threads I can here (been reading DU over 2 years daily), and I think some excellent questions have been raised (and I have my own theories as well that are not mainstream).

But sometimes, I just gotta poke fun when they crop up :)

[stickdog]

20. That's cool.

About 9/11 & Bush:




Concerning Putin, his political popularity gain won't be quite as stunning, but when Russia passes its own version of the Patriot Act in response to this event, will he be shedding any tears?

[The Straight Story]

27. Maybe he should have waited

Sept 11 was a few years early to help him much in the election.

Now looking at the poll numbers above - it is an approval rating, which tells us what exactly? People felt he handled things well, when it all died down people judged his approval on a broader spectrum of things and it leveled out. Now a few years later (and close to the election) we have questions like from Moore, et al, and people have doubts, see the government as the problem (which failed to stop the terrorists) and so on. So bush gained for a short time some extra votes in a poll.

Now the story here often goes, but yeah - it helped him to invade afghanistan and iraq so we could get more oil and it helped deflect other issues like the economy. So here we have the smartest and biggest minds in cover ups and conspiracies pulling all the strings and the only way they make things happen is to use holographic planes to blow up buildings and then use the high people had to get them to agree to things.

I get lost in all the varied conspiracies. But here is where I think the smartest way might have been. Bush calls up osama and tells him to bring some hijackers in (might even have sent him an IM ya know). These jokers fall for it and send in the nut cases. They start to hijack the planes, but alas they are stopped! Bush saw the evil plans ahead of time through super intelligence and thwarts the attacks, saves the day. They find papers linking iraq, al qaeda, afghanistan and others to plots to bring in some nuclear weapons, the hijackers that lived 'confess' to other major operations planned.

Bush the hero saves the day, we see an imminent threat, go and kick some booty, and his poll ratings stay up because a few years later around election time people remember what he stopped from occuring. He gets re-elected and then goes and does some more stuff.

I keep seeing people say how dumb terrorist X was, ask why would they do this and not that, and use that for placing doubt. Well, here is doubt - bush had a zillion more ways to do things and make himself look good and in charge and he did not do them. mihop? why did he read the goat book? He could have lept into action with a pre-made plan and looked presidential. But no, he reads and runs. How did this benefit him? How did anything bush did benefit him in the long run? lihop? I can't see that as being any more viable as it would leave too much to chance (ie, any number of things could have went wrong and that would ruin his fun, I don't see his crew as trusting others to do the job for them right). A branch off lihop tree - they knew the terrorists were planning something big and instead of sounding the alarm bells they decided to lay low and wait for them to make a mistake and hope to catch them. They took an inactive role and kept the info to only a few.

In the end 9/11 did not give bush a sustainable level of approval, there were more intelligent ways to wage war against countries he did not like. If the bush empire was so all powerful to control the whole world then why did bush 1 lose to clinton? He could have done something like 9/11 right before the election and saved his ass.

I love a good conspiracy, and hell 9/11 may well have some dark sinister side (and again, have my own ideas on that) but I don't see bush as they guy behind it all (and if he is, he damn sure has no clue how to run a real conspiracy for his own benefit). I didn't see clinton as the evil one with waco and Okie city (but many on the right did, and they had in-depth details. I worked for a company with close ties to a few milita's and gun manufacturing, and them boys had clinton pegged as hitler who would not give up office ever. He was behind everything from drug running to killing off people, and come end of his term he would have some big attack on america so he could keep power, yadda yadda yadda).

I miss the issues, all of them. From forestry service impacts to pollution laws, all the way down the line to each and every segment of our huge government. It all gets overlooked because the media blows it off and the smart detective people are off chasing holographic planes and old vietnam crap.

We talk about sheeple and how dumb some people are (or out of touch if you like) on the issues. Yet we send them in droves to see michael moore and web sites about 9/11 and don't happen to mention hardly any legislation passed over the last 4 years, job performance of each section of government, Fish and wildlife studies, tax analysis and funding issues, and so on. The media is piss poor on this so it is up to us to bring back true accountability of those we employ, and we won't achieve that is we spend years trying to tell people that the planes they saw hit that day were remote controlled tankers and that the passengers ended up in the ocean after a trip to nasa.

Maybe, just maybe, when kerry gets in we will move on and start looking at the whole job our elected officials are doing and focus on keeping them honest and hard working. Cause right now, they are slipping through a big crack to most of america.

Thank god Bev Harris and crew have spent their time on bbv and not mihop/lihop - otherwise we might have let that all slip under the rug while we were busy trying to tell the general public bush was using an atari joystick to crash the first plane while in his limo snorting with an underage hooker. :)

At any rate, hope you took nothing personal in all this, just blowing off general steam. thank you for your time in responding to me.

[burrowowl]

32. Not letting anyone drink water

Small children would be dead in 3 or 4 days and older people 5 to 6 days.
I don't think the terrorists had thoughts of anyone getting out alive.

[TexasSissy]

26. Yes, I see. Glory Halleluyah! I see the light!

It's all a conspiracy! Everything! Glory Glory! I see the light!:think:

[The Straight Story]

28. come on down the aisle sister

So I can lay upon you my hands and heal you of your malady of ignorance to the truth of the great evil, that all seeing eye which controls the world (dan quayle). For $14.95 you can own my video "I made up some crap to sell to the believers and they eat it up" which has proof (of purchase that is) of the conspiracy to rule mankind by gay teletubbies led by...well I can't tell you, have to buy the video (with rare footage we re-enacted).

[TexasSissy]

31. I shall never speak the name "La La" again (he carries a purse!).

And His name shall be....Koresh.

[Junkdrawer]

19. stickdog, I think the bigger mystery is "Who did this?". So does Putin...

Some want to cut off a juicy morsel from us while others are helping them.

They are helping because they believe that, as one of the world's major nuclear powers, Russia is still posing a threat to someone, and therefore this threat must be removed.

And terrorism is, of course, only a tool for achieving these goals.


From the Putin Speech: Who is the "someone" (para 2) ?

Also see:
Chechen separatist spokesman Akhmed Zakayev said the militants were not Chechens. “The hostage takers were Ingush, Ossetians, Russians, but not Chechens,” said Zakayev, once a spokesman for Chechnya’s separatist president Aslan Maskhadov.
“But of course, their demands have all to do with Chechnya, so whatever has happened, the Chechens will be held responsible. That’s what I’m afraid of,” he said on Britain’s Channel 4 television. agencies.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/print.asp?page=story_4-9-2004_pg1_1&ndate=09/04/2004%205:54:34%20AM

[stickdog]

21. Agreed. That's the $640 billion dollar question. (nt)

[kohodog]

22. Putin and Bush are Buds, both dimwits.

They deal with threats in the same heavy handed way. I mentioned this as a possible scenerio to my family before I saw any evidence. It ie truely tragic, especially if negotiation could have ended with a better result.

[GoldenOldie]

23. Word from Moscow

I have been worried about my daughter and her family that are working/living in Moscow. I finally got through to my daughter today (she and hubby are teaching in Moscow with an international school,)to get her perspective on recent events and if they were safe. I didn't realize that the Metro where the car bomb had been set off was so close to their residence. She had also talked to her sister a few moments before and said that all their calls are monitored and that she was cut-off numerous times during their conversation and that her sister would give me more info. She said that it was not the Chechen rebels involved in the planes, the car bombs, or the attack on the school but rather Arab muslims. They knew this because the bodies recovered from all of these were identified as Arab Muslims. King Abdullah (sp) of Jordan arrived in Moscow soon after the attack with offers of assistance....his father made a good choice in selecting him to follow his rule. Also the Chechen's claim they are not responsible for these latest attacks and they have always willing acknowledged what they had done.

My daughter said that there is an uneasy feeling amongst the people and an unusual eerie quiet. They were having rain along with thunder and lightening storms which only adds to the sense of something foreboding. Their Russian friends are now saying their normal casual goodbye's with an added little comment that they may never see them again. I am hoping that all of this is due to the Russian history and not anything they know for certain. They have years of experience dealing with horrible things and events happening and we Americans have been so immune.

I now worry for my daughter, granddaughter (13), and son-in-law but at the same time I am furious with George W. Bush for opening this "Pandora's Box." Yes they have always had terrorists but George & thugs have now opened a recruiting office within the ME and there are unlimited numbers that are willing to join up.

[TexasSissy]

24. Hold your horses, there. I heard on TV BEFORE the "storming" from

the mouth of one of the escaped child hostages THAT THE TERRORISTS HAD KILLED SOME HOSTAGES. There were dead bodies in the school.

That was BEFORE the Russians had gone in.

It is U.S. policy, I believe (and common sense, as far as I'm concerned), that once terrorists start killing hostages, all bets are off, and the authorities must make an attempt to save the remaining hostages. They are definitely being killed by being left in their current position with the kidnappers.

Don't try to make the Russian Special Forces out to be evil demons before we even know all the facts. That was a no win situation, no matter what. Some of the hostages had intentionally been killed already by the terrorists, and it was likely that more hostages would be killed in an effort to save the remaining hostages. Who would want to be in that situation? What would you have done? Waited it out, while the terrorists continued to kill more and more hostages?

The story I heard is that the forces went in to the school, on agreement with the kidnappers, to collect the dead bodies (it was hot in there; I imagine the stench was strong). When they went in, the terrorists opened fire. That may not be true. But maybe it is.

We should give the Special Forces the benefit of the doubt over the terrorists, I think.

[stickdog]

29. Who is sticking it on the Russians? Whether or not they fired first,

the terrorists are to blame.

And yes they killed people -- several days ago. I'm not judging what the RSFs did, I'm just pointing out that they are probably lying about what actually went down on the last day.

[belle]

30. It sounds like Waco, only more so.