Being called a "freeper" for expressing an opinion

[Stew225]

about this campaign that is not positive and similar to the majority of others is analogous to being called a traitor or unpatriotic for not agreeing with everything our government says.

It's not a case of being with us or against us here on DU, just as that is obviously not the case in the world.

I never want to end up looking or being like the nut lady shown in the news at the RNC wearing the purple band aids. I would suggest, however, that she probably would make a "positive DU'er" if her philosophy were like ours.

Being positive and acting positive are not the same. Of course, if you act something long enough you can become what you're acting. But, I'm afraid, that we don't have the luxury of time necesarry to do that.

Therefore, if a post on DU is "too negative" for you how about accepting the fact that it's from an individual that perceives something differently than yourself? Flaming the person not only exacerbates any negativity but also simulates the modus operandi of the government; i.e., agree with what we say and put on a happy face about it.

[Dookus]

1. the problem is

posting a lot of the crap that has been seen here lately is playing DIRECTLY into the republicans' hand.

If *I* were an evil, nefarious right-wing political consultant, I'd encourage as many people as possible to post "sky-is-falling" complaints on Democratic boards. The Republicans benefit when the left is split. They benefit when we attack Kerry for them. They benefit when doubt is sown as to whether Kerry is a capable candidate. They benefit when doubt is sown as to wether Kerry is a capable leader.

You know, it really doesn't matter a fig if Kerry isn't ahead in the polls right now, but people act as if the election is over. Kerry has done pretty well in all his other elections, as well as the primaries. He KNOWS when the election is. Casting doubt and uncertainty here is simply carrying the Republicans' water. Let THEM do the work - we shouldn't help them.

[H2O Man]

3. amen!

I agree 100%!!!

[ElsewheresDaughter]

11. here here!

[Selwynn]

17. Whatever.

I'm also not willing to sacrifice free expression of opinion on the road to winning either.

If people are afraid things are looking bad for their candidate, and want to say so, that's there right. I'm not willing to give up that right just yet.

Personally, I was never an optimist, I've always felt we were the underdogs in this election, but that we have a shot, and I still think we have a shot - just a long shot.

Sel

[Dookus]

19. I'm not asking you to sacrifice anything

Post all you want on how bad things are going.... I post all the time, too.

You have a right to your opinion, but it doesn't mean I have to respect it. I'll argue against it.

[Selwynn]

24. Well I'll argue against and respect you.

I think we ought to be able to do both at the same time.

[Dookus]

25. I respect you

and most everyone here. But there are ARGUMENTS I don't respect.

[Selwynn]

26. Ah - ding. I get it now.

:)

[Maddy McCall]

22. As usual...

you hit the nail on the head.

:loveya:

[TahitiNut]

36. Absolutely anything can be spun as playing into repug hands. Anything.

"Kerry has a big lead!" --> Good, we can relax and not GOTV on 11/2.
"Bush has a big lead!" --> Woe is us! It won't help to GOTV.
"It all depends on Ohio!" --> Oh, well. I live in Michigan so I can relax.


Hell, we have enough of a problem getting the past straight. I get a bit tired of pugnacious "prove me wrong" prognosticators.

As far as I'm concerned, it's still the ISSUES - not the personalities. If we merely focused on FACTS and valid reasoning we'd probably be better off. The Reich-wing has been getting the ducks in line for 25 years. From the weed-roots, they went into the rural and suburban areas, organized the 'white flight' churches, infiltrated school boards, moved up to state legislatures and bought seats in Congress. In the media, they started by taking over radio and then cable TV. They increased their hold on newspapers and, all the while yelling "liberal media," put the fear of retaliation into every presstitute. Liberals were coasting on the "good life" of the 70's while the right wing was, with the help of deep-pocketed heir-heads, buying democracy like it was a garage sale.

Even so, only about 20-25% really feel the fire licking at their asses and only about 10% feel 2nd degree burns or worse. Altogether too many think that just winning the 2004 general election is enough. Well, it isn't even close. Not by a looong shot.

[DulceDecorum]

2. Oh darling

take it in stride.

If you want to see what flying fur looks like
come down to the 911 forum sometime.

where there was once a thread dedicated ENTIRELY
to trashing poor lil ole me.

I understood what Clinton went through and I take comfort in him saying that his opponents told him that if they fought fair they would lose every time.
I think we have the exact same situation in 911 forum.

[Dem2theMax]

38. WHAT 9-11 forum? I could swear I saw one in the forum listings

some weeks back, but there isn't anything there now. Am I just under so much 'voter stress' that I'm seeing things? Or not seeing them?
:crazy:

[Stephanie]

4. Get tough or get out

We don't have time to coddle whiners. There's work to do.

[George W. Dunce]

6. Gets old

It just gets old when you have people in here one day predicting landslides for our guy only to return a day later with doom and gloom and were going to lose.At the risk of sounding like Dunce Boy.. that's what the enemy wants to hear.

[Andy_Stephenson]

8. Hummm

I always and gloom and doom...Ever hear of Diebold or e-voting?

But I still work for change.

[Andy_Stephenson]

7. God I just love a strong

Woman.

:hi:

[Selwynn]

18. Spoken like everything I hate from the other party.

We should always have time to "coddle" free expression of ideas in an open forum.

[Stephanie]

35. It's counter-productive to coddle negativity

We don't have time for that. We have two months.

[sweetheart]

37. negativity and doubt are toxic

and infectious. I'd even go the step further to empower moderators
in this next 60 days, to liberally lock and delete negative doubt
threads. It is shouting "fire" in a theatre, and depending on the
post, can be a bit of an abuse of free speech.

I've experienced similarly discussing tax reform, as it is a hot
issue, and people are sensitive to issues that sound even remotely
like they are republican, rather than simply an issue. This partisan
charge skews debate and inevitably spoils the depth that threads
can develop with honest views expressed across the spectrum.

Bottom line, 2 months. This website, like it or not, is part of a
campaign... as people come here to be informed. I hope all
democrats and patriotic americans speak up in these next 60 days
bringing the brightest and wisest of their writings.

[Stephanie]

39. We are a part of the campaign.

We are the grass-roots. We are the base. We can't indulge those who wallow in negativity, and it is right to suspect that they might be deliberately trying to undermine Kerry. Our voice is heard and our voice must be positive and supportive and confident.

[DeepModem Mom]

5. I agree Stew225 -- the invective aimed at DUers who have questioned...

campaign strategy is really distressing IMO. I have worked in campaigns, and I can tell you that the mood inside our campaign, among the professionals, after the recent polls, was not happy. I see just now in LBN that Newsweek is reporting that Kerry is furious with Mary Beth Cahill. I have not posted any of the threads you refer to, but I think DUers should have every right to post them, should have the right to be discouraged, without being ridiculed with, "SKY IS FALLING, WE'RE DOOMED, I TELL YOU, DOOMED."

We have a candidate of real substance; I admire him more and more. But we face enormous odds, and we have to face that reality. And the stakes are so high I can hardly let myself think about them. The investment in this campaign of emotion, time, and money is enormous here. I agree, people should be given a break, allowed to share both ups and downs, and even vent when things aren't going as well as we'd hoped.

[wyldwolf]

9. I don't like it when DU'ers are called "freepers" but I do have a problem

I don't like it when DU'ers are called "freepers" but I do have a problem with your post.

expressing an opinion about this campaign that is not positive and similar to the majority of others

You have done a poll on this? The majority of who?

[Rabrrrrrr]

10. I did a thread on this the other day

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=1626259

[Zorra]

12. Yeah, we need to make sure that our morale is kept down by negative

posters intent on spreading their phantom doom and gloom so that people will not want to vist DU anymore because it is too depressing.

No one here is hiding their head in the sand. We already know that everything is not perfect. We have a lot of work to do, and don't need to be distracted by whiners and snivelers who present negative information and opinions that have no constructive discussion value or possible short term practical solution.

It is not unreasonable for us to suspect that posters who present this type of negativity are disruptors whose intention is to divide us and lower our morale.

[against all enemies]

13. People have implied that I was an undercover Repuke because

I questioned Kerry's campaign tactics. I guess "you are with us or with the enemy thinking" and "don't ever question our party" mentality that we find so disgusting in the republicans is OK if it is within the Democratic party.

Should we all march behind the Kerry campaign if it is going the wrong way? Sorry, that's not my idea of being a good democrat, or American for that matter.

[Must_B_Free]

14. Only a Freeper would write a post like this.

freepers whine like a vinyard.

[trumad]

15. I'm accused of being a freeper all the time

and it baffles the shit out of me....

[against all enemies]

16. You made me laugh.

[TexasProgresive]

20. I thought you were

the freeper asshole of DU. Just kidding Trumad!

This whole thing of microanaylizing polls and campaign strategies is like some one who checks on their stock prices 300 times a day. It's a big mistake and totally unproductive. We like to think that we have some great power because of the internet but that just dilutes our real power. We need to set up tables for Kerry and our Reps, to canvass door to door, to telephone and to register voters, especially likely Dem voters.

[xcmt]

21. I've experienced similar.

I don't have many posts under my belt, but I've already been at the heart of two, erm, "debates" where my opinions weren't exactly popular enough to warrant not being flamed. I think you have to accept that DU is less of a discussion forum and more of a tool, for distribution of news and (more importantly) moral support.

It's an election year. A super-conservative evil Republican is in the Whitehouse and leading some polls. Up to four Supreme Court positions could be decided by this election, which would dictate the rule of American law for the next decade. We need moral support right about now. So, part of me understands why somebody suggesting negative ideas would be rallied against. Being reminded of the stakes of failure doesn't help us feel better.

Then again, it's precisely the same behaviors people seem to hate the Republicans for; Ad hominem attacks, exclusion of anybody not following the party line, descending the level of discourse. I hope nobody takes offense, but some of the reactions around here (to anything ranging from criticism of Kerry's campaign to the plights of Social Security) are extraordinarily similar to the reaction you'd expect from telling an evangelical bible-thumper that Creationism is total hogwash. Lots of yelling, lots of insults.

Both sides probably have to be more considerate of the other.

[Anon]

23. I agree with Stew225

Why should we be afraid of negative news? If we only accept positive news don't we run the risk of growing complacent? I've been wary of posting anything less than glowing for fear of being called a free-per, hence my low post count. Sometimes I think the motto of Du should be "We eat our own."

[sandnsea]

27. BULLSHIT, it's flamebait and you damn well know it

It isn't the difference of opinion that's the problem, it's the 50 threads a day ranting about the campaign. It's bullshit and anybody who does it is absolutely NOT ON MY SIDE. So fuck all of you who think yelling fire is freedom of speech. It's not. It causes panic and chaos and that's all you're doing. You got an opinion on the campaign, put it in an open thread. You start ANOTHER thread on the subject, you're an asshole. That's MY freeom of speech.

[TryingToWarnYou]

28. Welcome to DU! Thats how it is here with some folks...

If you express an opinion, no matter how well you do it, and no matter what your history is here, someone, somewhere, if they disagree with it, will tell you to go back to FR. Ive seen it time and time again and experienced it directly when trying to ask a question or discuss something.

[Eloriel]

30. I've never been called a freeper, but I've been disagreed with

plenty.

Sorry you've had that experience. See if my previous post explains any of it to you.

[TryingToWarnYou]

31. Eh, no reason to be sorry...

I just take it for what its worth and realize that some people will say and do things simply because they dont agree with your opinion. I would expect the same thing if I was at FR and was saying things they didnt agree with.

[Eloriel]

29. I've not seen the thread(s) you're apparently referring to or

any of your posts, and in general I'm not the least bit interested in Kerry campaign issues (which this seems to be about), but I have a few general comments.

Calling someone a freeper is against DU rules. That doesn't change the fact that we get "visited" by freepers all the damn time. Some of them have been slick enough that we haven't caught them until sometime after they've gotten 1000+ posts under their belt. One freeper was caught posting on a conservative board (by a DUer, I have no idea if Admin was aware) boasting that he even served as a moderator -- twice!

We don't LIKE freepers, and we especially don't like them here at DU. Yet, freepers at DU is and probably always will be a problem.

The second thing I want to say is this. I see a lot of new people come onto DU telling DU how to conduct ourselves: "ohh, shhhh, don't say things like that, the other side will speak badly about us with all these conspiracy theories. This is embarrassing."

What's embarrassing is the ignorance of those who caution us against speaking up about the Bush/Nazi connections, the LIHOP/MIHOP 9-11 issue, the Bush Body Count, the PNAC fascists, etc., etc., etc. I suspect (hope) that most of them are merely uninformed (tho, to be fair, there are a handful of longtime DUers who still can't bring themselves to see the truth), but the possibility or even probability exists that those who object are plants or freepers. We have no way of knowing, but I can tell you it's frustrating and sometimes infuriating to hear from people who know orders of magnitude LESS than some of us do that we're all wet and should shut the fuck up.

So while some people think what they're doing is merely expressing their own opinions about matters, what they're really doing is parading their ignorance about things that if they would pay attention (instead of lecturing us or trying to tell us the "truth" according to them), they'd learn that there DOES exist a fairly vast body of very credible knowledge at DU which an awful lot of DUers are pretty well aware of.

Sometimes those of us who have repeatedly accessed this "body of knowledge" over months and even years now can appear to be exhibiting "groupthink." There may be some truth in that, but for the most part I think it's merely the shared knowledge of the REAL facts and truth of what we're dealing with during this era.

If the comments you made were about Kerry's campaign, then probably my comments here don't really apply. But you may run up against other subjects where they will. IMO one of the best strategies for a new DUer is to ask questions when they encounter some discussions they disagree with vehemently or consider to be "conspiracy theories" and so forth, instead of insisting that their own beliefs and understandings of the subject are "the real truth" of the matter -- esp. when those beliefs track with the "official story" on the subject (e.g., 9-11).

[TryingToWarnYou]

32. Good Points!

NT

[EST]

34. You my hewo!

:-) (Sigh) How well put and succinct! Everyone has a gift to give and that gift may not necessarily be particularly welcome in some discussions-the proverbial skunk at the wedding. Each of us needs to choose wisely how we are prepared to react and if a fellow traveler should trip or be dragging, pick him up, dust him off and keep moving. We truly are the big tent, tolerance. Not only is that the higher calling, but, for us, it is absolutely necessary. The only way we will win is to try to keep this herd of cats together. No small group has any chance of fighting the machine by itself!

[Placebo]

33. I get called a freeper ALL THE TIME by my democratic friends!

Freeper, traitor, media whore, 'who needs enemies when we have friends like you', mentally ill, having no social life, IT GOES ON!

It's sad nowadays that u can't disagree with the Kerry campaign without being called one or all of those. I USED to think the great thing about our party was that we valued a diversity of opinion and allowed dissent! Guess not.

[Snellius]

40. Actually I think DU has been pretty tolerant

of letting us vent some of our frustration and disappointment the last few days. A lot of it has to do with tone. Posts that start with "Kerry's a wimp" or "So go vote for Nader" are like a cyber punch in the nose.