Christians: Please help me with this questions concerning * and Jesus

[Ugnmoose]

My wife and I (we are both Jewish) were having a political discussion today about The Christian Right. Admittedly we are no experts on the New Testament and just peripherally familiar with the teachings of Jesus. Here is my question:

If Jesus was supposed to be a strong advocate of peace how can fundamentalist christians support a President who would make war and justify it in his name. There seems to us to be a strong measure of hypocrisy going on here. Have any DU'ers raised this issue with hardline Christian Repukes?

[maveric]

1. CINOs

Christians in name only.

[slojim240]

39. The evangelicals and funndies live in Revelations and the OT

In Revelations, the deciple John supposedly in some kind of trance-dream is given a glimpse of the end times by either Jesus or an angel. Also, in the Gospels Jesus tells of the "beginning of end" ushered in by wars, rumors of wars, earthquakes in divers places... Signs of the beginning of the end. Evangelicals and funddies (I don't know how to distinguish the two) long for the end of the world which will take them up in the sky to be with Jesus.

Now, IMO, many of them are going to be "left behind" having not met the criteria that Jesus sets out for "reigning with HIM" They don't feed the hungry, visit the prisons, take care of the widows and orphans, they don't love their neighbor as themselves, they don't love God with all their might, they don't do good, seek justice, or show mercy. However this thing goes down, I suspect there will be a lot of surprised folks and maybe including me.

[MsConduct]

57. You're right

about that. Pulling the religion card only when it suits their purpose. They give real Christian's a bad name.


Peace

[lgardengate]

2. In My Opinion

Jesus was speaking about his followers responce to and relationship with others.Not so much sociaty in general or the church.


I was raised in a conservative home and this is JMHO.

[donco6]

7. Well, maybe.

But it's hard to figure how bombing Iraq can come out of "Love your neighbor as yourself" or "Love your enemies."

Just some food for thought.

[Quahog]

23. What utter nonsense

So you're saying that Jesus, the incarnation of the Almighty God, the second person in the Holy Trinity, came to Earth to live and die among men solely to address the twelve guys who tagged along with Him? The entirity of Christianity, from the miracle of God made flesh in the person of Jesus Christ to the redemptive and salvific vision manifested by Christ's passion on the cross, is based upon the notion that what God did was for ALL human beings. Every word Jesus spoke was meant for every person who ever lived or ever will live. He was not just chatting up "His followers," this is simply moronic. Jesus was teaching men how to save their own souls, and His teachings were for all of mankind.

Therefore, it is not possible that george w bush* is a Christian, becuase he regularly, consciously and defiantly ignores the teaching of the God who he called his "favorite political philosopher." I guess if Jesus is just a philosopher, then guys like bush* are free to ignore Him at will. But anyone who calls himself a Christian supposedly shares in the ecumenical Christian belief, which transcends all denominational differences, that Jesus Christ was the one true Son of the ever living God, the salvation of mankind, and he died on the cross to redeem our sins. He rose from the dead, indeed, He defeated death, to show to all mankind the possibility of life eternal as the just reward for a life lived according to God's teachings. Clearly, anyone who so religiously defies God is either pretending to be a Christian, or saying they are a Christian for effect when in fact they have read nothing of the New Testament and understand nothing of Christ's life and ministry, or else they understand all of this and are willing to trade their mortal souls for wealth and pleasure in this life.

As the original poster suggests, there is a major disconnect here.

[yardwork]

24. Excuse me? You are saying that the Sermon on the Mount

was just for Jesus's followers? Wasn't everybody supposed to be his follower? What was the point of Paul and the other apostle's traveling all over the known world to convert people if they weren't looking for additional followers?

There was no Christian church in Jesus's lifetime. It was created after his death and resurrection.

I mean no disrespect - I am simply puzzled by your comment. I was raised Episcopalian.

[Jayster84]

3. You're right.

Jesus was the first peace activist, but the christian right only uses parts of the bible that further their agenda. They're hypocrits. When you speak to the right wingers you find out that they don't understand any of the bible's teachings or even Jesus for that matter. If they actually practiced what they preached their would a lot less misery in this country.

[CarolynEC]

4. Trouble is, you're attempting to use logic and reason...

... to conceptualize fundamentalism. Can't be done, there's just no overlap, no matter what "flavor" the fundamentalism comes in.

[donco6]

5. Google "Crusades"

It's never bothered them before.

Seriously, though, most fundie types have no personal ethic. They only believe what others tell them is "biblical". Bush is painted as a conservative Christian (the only true kind), therefore he can do no wrong.

[Maat]

6. My husband and I were raised Christians...

he's now an atheist and I'm a religious scientist (liberal divinity-is-in-all-of-us, like-Unitarian religion).

I don't understand it either. We look at the Southern Baptist Convention resolutions -- look there if you want to blow your brain. There's one justifying the death penalty, one justifying the war in Iraq, and one stating that women must submit to male authority, right alongside a condemnation of abortion. Go figure.

I figure that they have to keep the money coming in, a class society where the Robertsons and the Falwells are rich, a lot of poor people around so that there is a source of cheap labor, with the husband making minimum wage, and the wife having babies all of the time.

pfaw.org is an excellent source for info on the 'relgious right.' It covers the extremists in Judaism, Christianity, etc.

[clydefrand]

8. Absolutely, I have

And I've had a letter published in our newspaper in which I say Jesus was a liberal for he healed the sick, took care of the elderly and children, wanted peace on earth, took no money for himself and his disciples, appreciated people who were not Jewish --different from himself-- and had high regard for women. Now whether he did any of things---I don't know, but IF he did, he certainly was doing what we horrible liberals are accused of doing today. I'm proud to be a liberal.

[greblc]

9. Jesus weeps.

Bush has it wrong. St. Peter will clear things up for him.

The right has stolen Christianity. Liberal Christians are just to docile to fight to get it back.

The two groups are worshiping to different Gods.

I've lost friends over this. It boils down to Abortion and "Family Values"(Homo phobia).

[jdj]

10. It's all about the 2nd coming of Jesus. That is the key.

They want to be special enough for it to happen in their lifetimes, so they are trying to fulfill the prophecies in revelations to make it come true.

This way they can say that it's is God's will what they do, like stealing every election they can.

You need to go to revelations in the new testament to understand what they are doing and why. Apparently this chapter was written as fantasized revenge on the romans during xtian persecution, and here we are 1500 years later, in a country with religious freedom and, um, no more Roman empire, and yet they still can't let it go. We ARE the stupidest species on the planet.

[clydefrand]

12. AMEN!!!

[jdj]

20. I'll go futher and give my stock theory that these

are all abused children seething with anger they can't let themselves feel because of the commandments so they are gonna take it out on the "untouchables" whomever they deem that to be at the moment, because a large enough majority accedes to this. The bible is just a permission slip to vent their rage.

[SharonAnn]

29. Yes, I feel the same. Very dysfunctional behavior, wierd

desire for authority figures and discipline, sarcasm and belittling of anyone different.

[jdj]

37. otherwise known as stockholm syndrome, terror-bonding, etc n/t

[Tsiyu]

11. Even though Jesus said "I am the way..

the truth and the light. No one comes to the Father but through me," today's pseudo-Cristians try to enter their vision of Caucasion heaven by firmly clutching a verse from Paul here, a law from Deuteronomy there.

Christ's words mean nothing to them. They prefer the parts of the bible dealing with death and dismemberment and eternal damnation. And they take those parts literally.

Jesus' words of compassion and love and tolerance are lost to them in their bloodlust...

[SemiCharmedQuark]

13. Jesus was decidedly not for what the conservative right says he is

He didn't just talk about people in his group. He openly said that any old hypocrite can love their friends. It's loving your enemy that is the trick. This is further proven by "love your neighbor as yourself." Simple, no strings attatched. Not "love them...if they are like you."
If you notice, Fundies only use the Old Testament. They are anachronistic towards this. Not only do they pick and choose what they want to say, but they interpret these passages as it suits them and will not acknowledge any other positions. As someone else stated in this thread, fundies believe in a Christianity that they are told. They never penetrate further than this feeble veneer. They don't want to. They don't want to be told they are wrong. I think they, like most people, enjoy placing themselves above others.

[Tsiyu]

17. Fundies enjoy the Epistles as well

Paul is their God of choice

[SemiCharmedQuark]

51. That's true, I forgot about Paul.

Although to be fair, I don't know much about Paul. However I think some people may abuse his "no good works, faith alone saves you" idea.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

35. But only the parts of the Hebrew scriptures that talk about

"smiting enemies."

The prophets, such as Isaiah, Jeremiah, Micah, and Amos, are very tough on powerful people who oppress the poor.

The problem is that fundamentalists are trained not to question what their leaders tell them, and they are not encouraged to read and interpret the Bible without guidance. The leaders try to insulate them from all outside sources of information, and that includes parts of the Bible that contradict their twisted interpretation.

A few months ago, a DUer (I forget which one) told of a relative who was an Assemblies of God minister who was disturbed at the way political conservatives were taking over his denomination. Given the stories of fundamentalist and Pentecostal churches distributing Republican voting guides, I find it easy to believe.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

52. Yep, they pick and choose.

I find Hosea to be absolutely beautiful, and you're right that the others are tough on those that don't "walk the walk" so to speak. Even those that they "pick" are taken out of context and twisted. You can't take one phrase out of the Bible, ignore its context and read it in light of 20th century ideas, especially with a preconceived notion in mind.

[outanames1]

14. Just war

I'm not going to present myself as an expert on this but there is a "just war" (as opposed to unjust) concept. A Christian is not obligated to sit back and allow violence and injustice to happen. WW2 would be a recent example. I think most theologians supported our involvement in WW2.

[Tsiyu]

16. We do not Murder for Oil

We do not bear false witness

Aren't these in the Ten Commandments?

[yardwork]

26. Please show me where Jesus said anything about a "just war"

I am not familiar with that passage.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

36. "Just war" is a medieval concept, not a Biblical one

Some of the earliest martyrs were Roman soldiers who converted and then became pacifists.

[Ladyhawk]

56. Do you think the Iraq War was a just war?

And if you do, have you had your medication checked lately?

[Arcturus]

15. As has been said by others...

...they're not really taking Christian values into account with their politics.

I am a Christian and the son of a Vietnam veteran - most of my family believes that we should only go into war when absolutely necessary (in fact, only one of my sisters supported the Iraq campaign). What's surprising is that my Dad, normally conservative, highly questioned the war, and will probably not be voting for Bush.

[RevCheesehead]

18. Fundies use the Bible like a cookbook

The fundies I've encountered look for their argument, then look up individual verses to support their claim "it's in the Bible." Given that format, I can manipulate the Scriptures to say pretty much anything I want it to.

The irony is that Christians use the Bible like Bush uses his interpretation of the Constitution. He and his minions are the "certain scribes and pharisees" that kept trying to denounce Jesus, who called them "vile as snakes". These same people went to the local and provisional government to silence Jesus permanently through his death.

Evil comes in many, many forms, and it's still true today.

[TXDemGal]

19. To paraphrase what the disgruntled artist character Frederick

said in Woody Allen's movie "Hannah and Her Sisters":

"If Jesus were alive today and saw what people are doing in his name, He would never stop throwing up."

[quaoar]

21. I, too, am a Christian

And I must constantly remind my Democratic friends that the Republican Party does not own the exclusive franchise on Jesus. Unfortunately, some on the left lash out at Christianity in general as a way of lashing out at the Christian Coalition types.

Jesus was the original liberal. In fact, he was probably a Marxist. The fact that Republicans today worship him is a testament to compartmentalization. They go to church and listen as the preacher tells them they must work to uplift the poor and the oppressed and the despised, but it's more like a history lesson to them -- something somebody else should do. Or they think that their annual pledge to the church covers their responsibility for looking after their fellow man.

If Jesus were to return to Earth today, the last places He would visit would be corporate board rooms and country clubs. He would visit AIDS hospices and homeless shelters. He would visit Death Row and sleep under bridges. In other words, Jesus would not be welcomed in the palaces of power where Republicans congregate. He would not be asked to preach at Bob Jones University. In His disheveled state, He would not be welcomed in the multi-million dollar cathedrals of today with their lavish sound systems, escaltors, gymnasiums and health spas.

[jdj]

22. Concrete Blonde lyric:

"I told the priest, don't count on any second coming/
God got his ass kicked the last time he came down here slumming...

[yardwork]

27. Very well said! If Jesus were to return to Earth today

he would be arrested for disrupting the public peace - just like he was last time.

[Mr_Spock]

32. Absolutely! Jesus was KILLED for being a radical liberal.

Too bad the Right-wing troglodytes can't even conceive of the truth.

[Mr_Spock]

31. Jesus was a radical liberal.

I agree with everything you say. I try to tell people every day about the hypocrisy of the Conservative Right (Wrong) and Dumbya. Sometimes I scream. People have to hear it - every day - over and over again. Bush is the anti-Christ. Apparently someone else thinks so too - LOL http://www.bushisantichrist.com/

[Blue_Roses]

41. Oh wow! Well said!

you hit the nail on the head. I have alot of "fundie" family members and I use your argument with them all the time. In the book of Matthew Jesus warns of false teachers.

[VOX]

45. Well stated. Jesus was about love and forgiveness, and he was...

adamantly against cruelty and oppression. He cautioned everyone about judging others, and underscored the power of love and personal sacrifice.

If Jesus walked the Earth today, would he be administering lethal injections to condemned prisoners? Would he command a tank in the streets of Baghdad? Would he chat idly with Pat Robertson on the 700 Club? It's staggering that fundamentalists cannot perceive the fact that Jesus was a far-left revolutionary, as liberal and as radical as they come.

The right wing has a need to pervert beautiful things -- Jesus and his teachings, our Constitution, our very country -- so that their selfish ends will be served.

[Yupster]

50. If Jesus were alive today,

I believe he would have nothing to do with any government, just like last time.

[JPJones]

25. This is what the Pope said about Iraq

The current war on Iraq is of a type that has been rejected by the conscience of humanity, Pope John Paul II said on Tuesday, expressing "deep concern and great anguish" at the suffering caused by the conflict.

In a message to Catholic military chaplains gathered at the Vatican, the pope said: "The use of war as a way to settle conflicts between nations was rejected by the conscience of a large part of humanity, long before the United Nations Charter."

"Thoughts for the victims, the destruction and the suffering caused by conflicts always inspire great concern and anguish," the pope added.

Making it clear that his remarks concerned the present conflict, the pope also said that the only form of military action that could be considered legitimate was in defence against an aggression.

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraq/0%2C6119%2C2-10-1460_1338083%2C00.html

[jdj]

28. other comments (from capitol hill blue)

Laghi came bearing the pope's message: A war would be a "defeat for humanity" and would be neither morally nor legally justified.

The Pope also questioned the President's statements invoking God's name as justification for the invasion.

"God is a neutral observer in the affairs of man," the Pope said. "Man cannot march into war and assume God will be at his side."

In Rome, the pope called for "common efforts to spare humanity another dramatic conflict

[kwolf68]

30. Yes I have had this debate

Jesus himself says "Blessed are the Peacemakers"

When I ask a religious, fundie friend he quoted something from the old Testament about "Keeping one's house in order" or something.

I asked him that he inferred justification for war based on THAT? He said yes. Of course, Fundie Christians are famous for quoting shit from the Old Testament to advance their agenda. That's where they get this "Eye For An Eye" thing from as well.

The Conservative Right, the corporate oligarchs are exploiting these Christians based on one issue ... abortion.

I do not believe true Christians have a real problem with gay people. I went to a Methodist Church in Richmond that was very Conservative and they didn't hold any malice toward gay people, but they were deadset pro-life...non-negotiable.

That issue (abortion) is used to co-opt the votes of millions of Christians who aren't intuned to all the other issues they would likely be Democrat (or downright Liberal) on.

I believe the Christian rights marriage with the Neo-Cons is a house of cards. At some point the right Democrat will come rolling out with tremendous command of the Bible and will simply slaughter nearly every argument from the 700 Club types. How he deals with the abortion issue, of course, will be the trick.

[Ladyhawk]

55. I don't know why the Dems haven't used this as a wedge issue.

"I believe the Christian rights marriage with the Neo-Cons is a house of cards."

On one hand you have the greed-hungry, atheistic Ayn Rand objectivists and the PNAC types. On the other hand you have the religious reich. Yes, politics makes strange bedfellows, but this is an alliance that could come apart if certain Christians got out there and started actually living and preaching what Christ taught. Christ was not greedy, nor was he bent on world conquest. The Pat Robertsons and Jerry Falwell types have to be rooted out and the only people who can do that are the Christian Left.

As an atheist, I can only look on sadly as a bunch of unthinking religious morons allow the right wing to destroy their religion and their country.

[chefgirl]

33. In my experience

From what I've heard from the fundamentalists I've known (ex boyfriends father was a promise keeper) they seem to try and pull parts of both the Old and New Testaments together to fit their beliefs.

The way Christianity was taught to me was that Jesus came here to deliver the message of a 'New and everlasting covenant' between God and His Church. This 'New and everlasting covenant' was meant to forever do away with the idea of a judgemental, punitive God, which was the God of the Old Testament.
In short, most of the outward expressions of piety and Godliness that were taught in the original Jewish faith, were, to Jesus, man made behavioral structures that had less to do with faith and much more to do with conforming to the politically driven societal laws of the High Priests, or Pharisees.

He taught that you must have a personal relationship with God, and that He was sent here as the Messiah to show people the truth and the way.
He said things like, "Whatsoever you do to the least of my bretheren, that you do unto me" and " By their fruits you shall know them". These are two of my favorites.

All of the above, by the way, I say with no intention of impuning your Jewish faith, for which I have the utmost respect, because I was also taught that we must believe what we believe and when we die, we will all find out the truth.

For all the reasons I stated, plus many more, I believe that the Christian Fundamentalists of today are more like the Pharisees and less like Jesus Christ himself. I believe they hide behind the humanity and charity of His message (much the same way the RW hides behind the true meaning of the American flag) while displaying the outward behavior that he condemned.

Because of that, I cannot refer to them as Christians. However, there is a school of thought (which I've even seen here on DU) which holds that if someone merely professes a belief in Chrisianity, then they must be Christians.
My argument to that is, no matter what a person may profess to believe in, if they follow the teachings of the Old Testament, they simply cannot call themselves Christians. Yes, that would include the Ten Commandments. Jesus taught that the guidlines for living a Godly life were the Beatitudes.

The Fundamentalists are trying to have it both ways... to rely on the teachings of the Old Testament when they want to justify all things inherently opposed to Jesus' teachings, like war, to use your example, while at the same time wrapping themselves in the ambient humanity, charity and assumed morality that wearing His name can buy for them.

-chef- (who fully expects to be unmercifully flamed by certain DUers, but hey, you asked) :shrug:

[kwolf68]

34. READ THIS POST

HAMMER. NAIL. HEAD.

[Tsiyu]

40. I heard it, too

Hammer. Hitting nail on head....

[Blue_Roses]

43. another post

well said!

[VOX]

46. Wow. Only flames of love here!

Beautifully stated, and so very well thought out.

Thank you, chef! :hug:

[BeHereNow]

47. NO Flames from me sister-

Just a resounding AMEN!
A bad tree can not bare good fruit...
And a good tree can not bare bad...
I know which one you are.
And we know who they are.
BHN

[BootinUp]

49. Nice post - spot on. n/t

[Ladyhawk]

54. You know, maybe I should start telling fundies they aren't Christians.

How far do you think that would get me? :) Seriously. They're always pissing on me for being an atheist. Why can't I piss on them for being Pharisees?

[BeHereNow]

38. They are not Christians!

That is the first thing to understand about them.

They follow false teaching which is impossible
for a Christian to do; they rely and trust other men to reveal the
truth of God's word in scripture to them when any true
Christian will tell you that God alone can do that
and that understanding is what the scriptures reveal
is part of a gift that we call "sanctification"
that follows justification or "salvation."
Sadly, our country is swarming with false teachers
and many are being deceived about their
own salvation.

"Jesus wept" indeed.
BHN

[vetwife]

42. I believe that these people are who Jesus warned about as

Saying Lord Lord and denying the power therein. These people are macking a mockery of what we christians do believe. Jesus hated religion and was a Jew. Jesus believed that man was to do no harm to any man. Look at the example of Martin Luther King and you have a good example of christianity. Don't look at what this bunch is spewing. They are phony. Jesus was not white and blonde haired and blue eyed but tell that to some of those phonies. they won't have it. No.....It is true they have completely thrown away the new testament except for wanting to have and end time revelation which cannot be taken literally in all manner and they have hijacked the meanining of christianity and took a good many of the church goers with them. If they really lived their faith, we would not be doing what we are doin , especially in the name of God. Yes I have talked to them and they are speechless and are almost cult like. There is no reaching these folks. They scare the true lovers of Jesus.

[LibDemAlways]

44. If Jesus showed up at a wingnut fundie

church today and began preaching his message of love, peace, and tolerance, he'd be lucky if he was only quickly escorted out and not arrested for disorderly conduct.

Bush is not a Christian. He only plays one on tv.

[BootinUp]

48. They're being told by their ministers that the war is a good thing

Bringing democracy to the heathens kind of twist. I know its sick. I witnessed it first hand the last time I went to a fundie pentacostal church with some friends (few months ago).

There is another thread tonight about an Op-Ed by a United Methodist that raises the same question you just did. It was published in the Charlotte Observer (NC).

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x72110

edited to add link

[Ladyhawk]

53. Yep, I've seen it, too.

When I was attending a peace vigil a few months ago, a fundy whack-job came and said she was going to be a missionary in Iraq and that the occupation was a good thing because of all the Iraqis converting to xtianity.

Barf.

I told her I was an atheist and proud of it, whereupon she placed a hand on my forehead and started praying for me.

Barf.

More problems with fundamentalists:

1) Taught to respect authority too much
2) Taught to filter everything through fundamentalist beliefs
3) Taught more about Old Testament and Paul's Epistles than the actual teachings of Jesus. They're more like fundamentalist Paulian Jews than Christians. I would call them on it, but they believe that "all scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for instruction in righteousness." That's another Paulian quote...can't remember which epistle and I don't give a crap.

So basically, the OT admonitions to go kill everyone who "pisseth against a wall" are just as valid as Jesus saying, "He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword." That the two are completely contradictory may cross their tiny minds, but a little thought-stopping kills the cognitive dissonance.

Can you tell I really, really--damn, REALLY!--dislike fundies?