I know there are many Christian DUers.. but are there any FUNDIE DUers?

[UdoKier]

Just wondering. If you do consider yourself a fundamentalist, how do you square that with the bigotry and hatred that characterize 99% of Christian (and apparently muslim) fundamentalists?

How do you deal with them at church when they spew their horror that "the queers are trying to marry" or "the secular humanists have forsaken the 10 Commandments in thhe public commons!"


Are there any fundies here? Is it possible to be a fundie and a liberal? I'm seriously curious. I've yet to see a DUer call himself a FUNDAMENTALIST.

[UpsideDownFlag]

1. if there were fundies on DU, do you think they'd respond to this thread?

lol.

[UdoKier]

2. I dunno. Just wondering...

I'm sure it would be pretty tricky.

But I suppose if you were going by your own PERSONAL fundamentalist interpretation of the bible, and rejected the radical hate elements of the normal fundie philoshophy...

It is possible, isn't it?

Beats the hell out of me, I've only been to church 3 times in my life, and yet I'm always being told by religious folks what I can and can't do and who with...

[amber dog democrat]

3. I dont think you CAN find a fundamentalist biblical view

with out truncating much of the New Testament. There are too many contradictions.
And for that matter Which bible are we talking about. sorry for the rant.

I think where it really gets wierd is the "born again" sect within the Protestant sects.

so Are there any fundamentalists here ?

[Ron Green]

12. What the beady-eyed ones don't get about being "born again"

is that you have to do it EVERY DAY. Maybe even every hour or every MINUTE, until you're vibrating with awareness. It's not just a one-time dunk in the water and say the words, it's realignment with Spirit in a constant and continuous way, IMO.

[amber dog democrat]

14. and that would be a scarey thing for Bush and his friends.

Can you imagine the transformation that may result from SINCERE prayer and meditation? I wonder about what would happen if Bush really intended to be a good and moral person. There would be changes in outward and inward behaviors as well that are not compatable with spiriutal awareness and the committment it takes to maintain it.

I think this is the the key difference between someone who truely has a spiritual center based on love, practice and discipline - and someone who merely professes to be saved but has a superficial veneer of sanctity - in order to gain followers.

I really appreaciated your remarks. I need to remember there are others who do not suscribe to the Fallwells, Pat Robertsons, Jimmy Swaggerts et al.

I remember a quote from Aldous Huxley's book The Devils of Loudoun where he says something to the effect that until the ego moves aside for the Spirit, a person is a bundle of psychoactive elements. ... I can sense this spiritual weakness in Bush.
Its not a good thing to have so much authority in the hands of some one who is so juvenile.

[Ron Green]

16. Precisely. For him to start to find that kind of spirituality, he'd first

have to see his mistakes, ask for forgiveness, humble himself to a Higher Power. The fact that he APPEARS to do all of this as a "Christian" is what pisses off so many people who are truly caring about the life of the soul, or whatever you want to call it. I mean, this guy was a drunk until age 40, right? And then got Religion? I'm sorry, but I figure it's a much more subtle and difficult path than that.

[amber dog democrat]

26. It would be the ultimate irony

if he actually began to learn theology and begin the process of spiritual awakening.
My favorite fantasy is that the deity would one day show up in his bathroom mirror and tell him he will get what he is asking for..starting now with absolute honesty
and going from there. I do feel this stuff is dangerous to play around with in absolute insincerlty. There is such a thing as getting what you ask for.

Other wise bush is a total phoney; its all an act with hm.

[Ron Green]

62. Of course I feel like a first-class hypocrite to talk about these

spiritual matters, when I have so much hatred for Bush and his crew. My head and my heart know that I'm called on to love him, but my gut tells me I want to kick the shit out of him, LOL.

[Arianrhod]

80. I could accept a late conversion.

Two genuine believers who come to mind are Augustine and CS Lewis, both of whom converted in their 40s. While there are some who might question Augustine's spirituality--he gave us, after all, some of the more horrific teachings of the Church--there are elements of his humanity visible if one looks for them. I'm thinking of his prayer: "Make me chaste, Lord--but not just yet!"

But I don't believe for a second that * is a believer.

[Arianrhod]

77. It's not just your opinion.

It's the Apostle Paul's, too.

"I affirm, brethren, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily." -- 1 Corinthians 15:31

[shawn703]

84. Sure you can

If you are referring to supposed contradictions in the Bible as proof the Scripture is inerrant. For many of the "contradictions" (like what happened to Judas and the silver after the betrayal), the answer can be found if you examine all the relative passages in the Bible together instead of looking at the passages separately as contradicting statements.

I do agree with the problem with the translations in the Bible - I think it can be Biblically proven that Christ was crucified on a Wednesday with any translation, but easier with the Young's Literal Translation, since that one specifically uses the word "Sabbaths" There were two Sabbaths the week Christ was crucified because of Passover, but the other translations only mention Sabbath.

[LoZoccolo]

6. I don't think any will.

I just don't know how a condescending tone and a use of a derogatory label would attract anyone to spend their time in this one.

[UdoKier]

17. I wouldn't condescend to a Fundamentalist DUer...

and "Fundie" is just shorthand. It's no more derogatory than "dem".

The problem is that most fundamentalists have a chip on their shoulder the size of a boulder where it comes to ANY of the tenets of their beliefs being questioned.

Besides, if they believe in spreading the Good Word, shouldn't they be able to handle a "tone" they may not like?

[LoZoccolo]

22. It doesn't matter if you say that you didn't mean it that way later...

...because I'm giving you advice on how to get responses. It matters how it's taken.

[UdoKier]

29. You may be right, but...

All over America, the vast majority have to constantly tiptoe around the feelings of fundies, to avoid offending them, or worse, setting off a violent rage.

I'm not about to start tiptoeing here.

[LoZoccolo]

40. Oh, so that's what this is really about.

:eyes:

[Arianrhod]

83. Who cares how it's taken?

Ego entanglement is their whole problem. They are so bound up in themselves that they miss the bigger picture. They are to be held in compassion, but I see no reason to defer to their weakness.

[LoZoccolo]

87. Oh fuck fuck fuck fuck I give up.

Right. There's nothing stupid about asking people to reveal themselves after using a deragotory term to describe them. You got it, pal.

[Arianrhod]

90. Actually, I find most Fundamentalists relish a fight.

They're just aching for a chance to come out swinging against what they perceive to be "anti-Christian persecution" in a Christian country.

Why so sensitive, if I may ask?

[LoZoccolo]

91. Because people like you /create/ the religious right.

A sickening part of your behavior, is that you're talking about other DUers who are coming here to try and change things in this country. These are people who are not using the government to impose their religion on people and all that, they're fellow Democrats who are aligned with you on many things, and you can't find enough tact and diplomacy to keep yourself from being odious to some of the only people that have enough truck with people in churches and what-not to try and break this imagined hegemony that the Republican party has on people of faith.

It's like we all sit here and wonder why these people act all hypocritical and take a GOP stance on all these issues about compassion and human rights and what not, and then I find a couple cranks turning them away at our door telling them they're not welcome and making fun of them. I think you can hold yourself for long enough to make common cause with people here and get stuff done, so do it. I'm sick of the Republicans using religion to divide people, and I'm sick of Democrats being actors in that exact same game.

And another part of it is that the original post was meant to call out some people, and it just becomes more and more obvious it's not from a standpoint of genuine curiousity, or at least not done tactfully enough to appear as such.

[Arianrhod]

95. Hm.

Sorry you feel that way. The Religious Right was here long before I was born. I had nothing to do with their creation.

How do you know how I behave when a Jehovah's Witness comes to my door? I spent many months on a Mormon list-server, talking quite amiably to some rather intelligent people. You think because I'm a non-Christian that I necessarily despise Christians--but in so doing, you demonstrate your own prejudice and shoulder-chip.

Time to get over the anger. If you don't like the word "Fundie", request politely that the writer not use it. Meanwhile, Jesus told us to turn the other cheek. Perhaps we could all use a little practice in that.

[LoZoccolo]

96. I guess my prejudice and shoulder-chip was based on things like this.

Ego entanglement is their whole problem. They are so bound up in themselves that they miss the bigger picture. They are to be held in compassion, but I see no reason to defer to their weakness.

They're just aching for a chance to come out swinging against what they perceive to be "anti-Christian persecution" in a Christian country.

These are other DUers you're talking about, who I'd like to stick around for the aforementioned reasons.

[Arianrhod]

99. Ego-entanglement is the problem of the entire human race.

It is the central tenet of such religions and philosophies as Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Celtic paganism (my religion), and Wicca. It is also a central tenet of Jesus' teachings--although that has been mitigated by the later writings of Paul. That you consider it an "anti-Christian" teaching is rather enlightening.

Giving in to our animal nature, while ignoring the higher yearnings of our human consciousness, is a condition that calls for compassion, understanding, empathy, and discipline. Compassion, because it is a miserable way to spend one's life; understanding, because we need to realize its roots and its prevalence; empathy, because we are all subject to it; and discipline, because it must be overcome if we are to truly be human.

As for my description applying to other DUers--well, it applies to each and every one of us. I sincerely doubt that my pointing it out will chase anyone away.

[LoZoccolo]

100. Now you're twisting my words around.

That you consider it an "anti-Christian" teaching is rather enlightening.

This is ridiculous. You know what you meant when you said it, and how it would be recieved in the context in which it was said, and so does just about everyone else reading this, and that's why I'm pretty sure this conversation is over.

[Arianrhod]

82. The "derogatory label" you refer to was applied by themselves.

In the late 19th Century, a group of Presbyterian ministers wrote a series of volumes entitled The Fundamentals. These laid out a detailed description of what, in their opinion, it meant to be a Christian--along with a specific political plan for imposing these beliefs on the rest of the country. To call someone a "Fundamentalist" is not demeaning in the sense that you seem to think it is; it is rather a reference to a particular form of thought and act.

[LoZoccolo]

86. I wasn't talking about the word "fundamentalist".

I was talking about the word "fundie".

[Arianrhod]

88. Yeah, sorry.

I just realized that, and was going to post a retraction.

I never call them that, for that very reason. I always refer to them as Fundamentalists.

[wildeyed]

4. Well I know some really hardcore christians who

disagree with Bush intensely b/c the Iraq war. They have bumper stickers that say 'Blessed are the Peacemakers'. One of them grew up in Africa, her family are missionaries. She doesn't like Kerry either, abortion. I don't know if she is a 'fundie'. Probably would not appreciate being called that if she was. I repect her opinions, regardless. They are rooted deeply in her christian beleifs and she is well informed.

[luaneryder]

5. As I know a few here in the wilds of east TN

When first speaking with them one would be quick to tag Fundie on them, but they are dead set against *. It kind of tickles me when they get riled up and start calling him Shrub.

[UdoKier]

18. I think the definition of fundamentalist is cut-and-dried.

A literal interpretation of the bible, with little or no flexibility to allow for science, evolution, many of the advances in understanding of modern psychology, etc.

Being a devout Christian or anti-abortion does not make one a "fundie".

I don't especially care for the practice of abortion, and I'm an atheist.

[sangh0]

42. There's more to fundamentalism than that

Fundamentalists believe that their religion, as it's popularly practiced, is a weakened, worldly, and corrupt version of their "true" religion. They seek to get back to the "fundamentals" of their religion, often emulating their religion's founders.

Or trying to, at least

[wildeyed]

69. Well like I said, I am not sure where her faith falls on

that continuum, exactly. Wouldn't surprise me if she is fundamentalist, though.

There was a great letter to the editor someone posted here a few weeks ago. It was from a fundamentalist democrat. He basically said that he thought the values of the democratic party were closer to the values jesus preached than the values of the republican party. He said just 'cause he was religious, didn't mean he had thrown away his brains. He said it better than that, though. It was a great letter. Wish I had bookmarked it so I could post it again.

Not 'caring' for abortion doesn't make one pro- or anti-choice. No one 'cares' for abortion. Anti-abortion folks are the ones who would stop other people from having one.

[Arianrhod]

85. Fundamentalism began as a response to science

and to the Industrial Revolution. Its first political act is now known as the "Scopes Monkey Trial" of 1925. Today, the vast majority of what we call "Creationists" are actually Fundamentalists. The whole point of the sect is to oppose scientific research, a materialistic worldview, and the reduction of religious power in a secular society.

It is not a religion so much as a political movement.

[TwentyFive]

7. I'm an evangelical Christian & I'll gladly debate...

any evangelical or fundamentalist Christian who uses the bible to hate people or justify anything the christian coalition/gop stands for.

The church I go to is not into politics, and I've never heard my pastor say anything about political issues or candidates. We are ALL sinners before God. End of story.

If you want a non-GOP evangelical perspective, try Tammy Faye Messner's book, "I will survive...and you will too!" She is quite an inspiration...she is very gay friendly and says things like "God's church is a hospital - not a courtroom" She is also friends with Mel White who is an openly gay Christian. She has seen first hand how mean the radical right so called Christians are.

She doesn't get into politics, but I'm willing to bet she is politically liberal.

[LoZoccolo]

9. Welcome to DU.

Don't get intimidated by some of the sentiments you see around here - I make the point every now and then that people like you are actually some of the most important people on DU as you have influence with people in your church where a lot of us don't.

[TwentyFive]

11. Thanks for the welcome!

I can understand some of the hatred liberals have for Christians because of Robertson, Falwell, Ashcroft, Bob Jones university.

But, they may forget that Jimmy Carter is an evangelical Christian. Who would you rather have as a neighbor? Jimmy Carter...or John Ashcroft.

Jesus said, "blessed are the peace makers", "give your money to the poor", "turn the other cheek", "forgive people who trespass against you"....basically be humble and do what you can to help others.

[Djinn]

31. I don't think it's hatred

atleast if it is it's from a tiny number. My view is that while I certainly don't agree with you (atheist no matter how much I try) I don't know and neither does anyone else so as long as their beliefs don't turn into actions that effect others negatively - it's a free country (both mine and yours)

People have a problem with folks who use their religious stance (or political or idealogical whatever) as an excuse for bigotry and hatred without accepting that not everyone shares their beliefs.

Oh and welcome to DU :hi:

[TwentyFive]

61. What is wrong with hate? Hatred defined

Many people don't like the word hate, but hate is just another human emotion. I don't trust people who put 'hate free zone' bumper stickers on their car. I figure they must hate something.

Here is a defintion of hate:

To feel hostility or animosity toward.
To detest.
To feel dislike or distaste for: hates washing dishes.

However, it does becomes a problem when somebody is consumed with hatred - especially if it's a person or a group of people. At that point, they need to get a grip on reality and get counseling.

[Djinn]

67. nothing per se

I too am always saying I hate this or that and getting told off because "hate is a strong word" it's just I really don't think many people here "detest" or "feel dislike for" or "feel animosity to" Christians

[TwentyFive]

73. I hope you are right

What I don't understand is why some people use terms like 'fundie' or 'Xtian' to describe Christians. It reminds me of the derogatory names used by people do describe groups of people they detest.

That said - when people like Bush or Robertson (in the name of Christianity) say & do bad things to gays - I understand why some gays have negative feelings toward fundamentalist Christians. My point is I wish they could see that Bush or Robertson are not acting in a Christian manner.

Also, I think it's more productuve to channel these emotions into defeating Bush at the polls.

[UdoKier]

76. I use "lib" and "dem" too.

I do have negative dfeelings towards fundamenbtalists - for reasons well detailed by many here and elsewhere. But using "fundie" and "Xian" is more about saving keystrokes that taking a swipe. If I wanted to do that, I would use terms like "religious nutjob" or fundie wacko". I don't pull punches on such things.

But Christians for some reason want THEMSELVES to be treated with the same kind of reverence as if they were God or Jesus themselves. I try not to deride God or Jesus, and THAT is out of respect for people who believe in them, even though I see them in the same league as the tooth fairy.

I understand objecting to folks saying "Jeebus" etc. But fundies and Xians are mere mortals. You deserve no more reverence than "libs", "cons", "dems", etc.

[UdoKier]

37. I don't consider Robertson, Falwell, AssKKKroft, Bob Jones...

... or their followers to be Chrisitians of any sort. They are flim-flam men and their willing suckers.


It boggles my mind that there is an audience out there willing to give tthose people money.

Even my Southern Baptist grandmother in Texas used to tell me as a kid that Swaggart and the like were all "a bunch of hucksters. they don't teach God's word."

She was no a sophisticated person. Lived on a poultry ranch all her life, and she could see through it. Mind-boggling.

[left is right]

105. If God did not exist they would be forced to make Him up.

I think they exhibit more con than conservative

[UdoKier]

38. DUPE sorry

nt

[Arianrhod]

93. I don't hate Christians.

My problem is, I don't know any.

The vast majority of religious believers in the world are not "true" believers--regardless of what philosophy they may claim to follow. Human beings are, first and foremost, animals intent on survival, and as such are liable to adopt just about any worldview that will enable them to keep on going. Some worldviews are closer to truth than others.

What I have no time for is anyone who rejects truth in order to cling to preconceived notions.

Fundamentalists--be they Christian, Moslem, Buddhist, or scientist--are out of the reality loop, because they insist on the world being a particular way, no matter what the evidence might suggest. That's a recipe for ignorance, and ignorance breeds violence, and I see no benefit in encouraging it.

Moreover, most so-called "Christians" are actually Paulinists. They don't follow Jesus' teachings, but rather those of Paul. And Paul had--well, let's just say that Paul had his issues.

I love the Apostle Paul. He is ever passionate, evocative, educated, eloquent, emotional, extremely confused--and essentially closeted. He falls for some of the most obvious logical fallacies, yet for my money, nothing expresses Christianity as marvelously as the first seven chapters of the Book of Romans. I despise hero-worship, but hell--I could follow this man.

Unfortunately, he was wrong.

Oh, but you're right. If what the New Testament says about Jesus' teachings is even half accurate, it's pretty certain that he would dismiss the Fundamentalists you mention as utterly incomprehensible.

[UdoKier]

20. You take my post the wrong way.

I'm open to the possibility that thgere may be a tiny number of liberal, non-bigoted FUNDAMENTALISTS. I'm aware that there are plenty of Christians like that.

It's kind of like if a fundamentalist were to admit that there were such a thing as a good, moral atheist. (I've yet to hear of a fundie make such an admission, though.)

[sangh0]

35. You accidentally started two threads

and in the other I said I didn't think there'd be any Fundamentalists but there might be an Evangelical or two.

Welcome TwentyFive!!

[TwentyFive]

58. Real Fundamentalist Christians cannot be bigots

The basic tenet of 'fundamentalism' is the bible is the inerrant word of God. Furthermore, the new testament tells Christians how to conduct themselves.

Where in the new testament...does God tell Christians to enforce their biblical laws onto the greater world? Nowhere!

People like Robertson/Falwell (and their followers) cannot be true Fundamentalist Christians because all they do is focus on other peoples' alleged sins. The bible goes to great lengths to tell Christians NOT to admonish others' for their sins. If we want to focus on sins, then we should focus on our own. To do otherwise would be hypocritical.

The ONLY way Christians should treat others is with kindness. If you hit our cheek, we should turn the other cheek. We are told to follow Jesus example...just rent The Passion and see how Jesus treated his tormentors.

If it's any comfort to you, true Christians probably believe that Robertson/Falwell are haughty, full-of-pride....and if they can't repent, they will not be able to enter Heaven.

[Cheswick2.0]

75. have you ever talked to one? A fundamentalist I mean.

If so have you ever asked the question? Or are you expecting CNN to cover the story when that Fundamentalist makes that admission?

[amber dog democrat]

13. Tammy Faye has earned my respect

She is an interesting person. I think this is what real Christianity represents.
I would say the same for Jimmy Carter too. I don't care if she is liberal or not. She seems to practice what she preaches.

Also welcome to DU.

[PassingFair]

43. Oh yeah,

like the $5,000.00 dog house? Like the swell digs at Heritage USA. Sure, she's a peach after they're caught out like the hypocrites they are. She has a likable persona. But just because she rubs elbows with gays on TV doesn't mean dirt.
I don't believe she was totally in the dark vis a vis the dirty dealings with her church's donation scandal.

Don't forget the Pass The Loot church. I think that's what PTL stood for...

[Kire]

68. Tammy Faye Rocks!

check out "The Eyes of Tammy Faye", a great documentary narrated by Rupaul

[UdoKier]

19. What is the distinction between evangelical and fundamentalist?

I really don't have any idea.

[sangh0]

36. My understanding is that Evangelists are more liberal and "worldly"

.

[Cheswick2.0]

78. not exactly

Evengelical means to evangelize, spread the word or good news. Evangelical Christians are those who think of themselves as freely sharing their experience, or "testifying" for God. They can be very liberal or very conservative and everything in between.

It really makes no sense to try and categorize people's politics by their religious affiliations. There are too many inconsistancies.

[LanternWaste]

46. Acording to one source I have handy...

The term, Fundamentalist, tends to have a variable meaning. Historically, and for those who use the name to describe themselves, a Fundamentalist Christian is one who holds to all of the five Fundamentals of the Faith as a bare-minimum definition of Christian faith.



In the common vernacular, Evangelicals encourage evangelism, that is the act of sharing one's beliefs in the gospel with others in order to convince them to convert, either in organized missionary work or through personal witnessing. It has cross-denominational meaning.

(Source: "Modern Religion in the West" by Jeffrey Hardy)

[pelagius]

72. Fundamentalism vs. Evangelicalism

Fundamentalism is a movement that sprung to life in the early 20th century in reaction to religious modernism. They particularly objected to new forms of Biblical scholarship that delved into how the text came to be.

For example, a commonly held belief was that Moses wrote the Pentateuch in its entirety through a sort of "divine dictation." The new scholarship coming out of Europe (particularly Germany) in the last half of the nineteenth century treated the Bible (and other ancient texts) as redactions from many sources, compiled over time by more than one author or editor.

This seems uncontroversial today, but it was a bombshell back then, and, in the fundamentalist mind, implied a rejection of the inspiration and authority of the Bible.

Their reaction was a hyper-affirmation of the Bible as the authoritative, divinely inspired, inerrant Word of God that was to be read in the most literal manner possible. For example, if the Bible says the world was created in six days that means six days.

In addition to the theological reaction, fundamentalism also had a socio-historical component. As the great movement from farm to city was occurring in the early 20th century, traditional values were being overturned. The fundamentalists found company in the so-called "holiness" movements of the late 19th/early 20th period. These religious movements rejected "the world" and its ways and sought to cultivate personal piety through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Evangelicals were also formed in this crucible, but the separatist instincts were tempered by a greater connection with historic Christianity (or at least the Reformation tradition) and, as was mentioned above, more engagement with "the world."

Evangelicals and fundamentalists are sets that can intersect, but don't always. The differences are not so much theological as they are sociological.

[Arianrhod]

98. "Moses wrote the Pentateuch in its entirety "

...including the description of his death? :D

Obviously, the "old school" cannot be correct, eh? :)

[pelagius]

101. Well, that's just the amazing power of God, isn't it?...

...accept it and don't ask too many questions. ;)

Seriously, though, American Christianity has some murky intellectual backwaters that seem preposterous to non-American Christians.

[jdj]

54. I loves me some Tammy Faye!!!!!!!!!!!!

She is the Bomb!!!!!!!!!!

A real Christian, the way I was raised and taught about Christianity.

Watch "The Eyes of Tammy Faye" and watch her on "The Surreal Life" last season. On The Surreal Life, she acted EXACTLY like the bible tells Christians to behave, loving without judgementalness.

I am so sad she has cancer again. I love this woman dearly, for her early stand on homosexuality and AIDS she was THE ONLY ONE of the evangelicals with the cojones to be Christlike.

I am not a xtian, fundie or otherwise, but Tammy Faye Messner is one of the only public figures drawing people to Christianity instead of driving them away.

[Cheswick2.0]

74. Welcome to DU

[ArkDem]

8. I'm a fundamentalist basketball player.

[Crunchy Frog]

10. Jimmy Carter

I don't know whether he's a fundie, but he is a Born Again.

I know, he's not a DUer, but someone with his beliefs would certainly fit here.

[UdoKier]

21. I've heard him described as a foot-washing baptist.

I wonder what church he attends?

[Philostopher]

28. He used to be a Southern Baptist ...

but he officially and formally left the denomination when, a few years ago, it went for a rather radical right-wingish turn in its overall operation. He didn't feel they represented his beliefs anymore -- my guess is he probably went to a more open, less-restrictive Baptist sect. There are several within that church.

[Jackpine Radical]

15. Go read Sojourners Magazine.

Conservative Xian, politically radical. Kinda like a Prod version of the Catholic Workers.

Edited because I just KNEW you'd want a link:
http://www.sojo.net/

Mission Statement
Sojourners, www.sojo.net, is a Christian ministry whose mission is to proclaim and practice the biblical call to integrate spiritual renewal and social justice.

In response to this call, we offer a vision for faith in public life by:

publishing Sojourners magazine, SojoMail and other resources that address issues of faith, politics, and culture from a biblical perspective;
preaching, teaching, organizing, and public witness;
nurturing community by bringing together people from the various traditions and streams of the church;
hosting an annual program of voluntary service for education, ministry, and discipleship.
In our lives and in our work, we seek to be guided by the biblical principles of justice, mercy, and humility.

[yardwork]

23. I had a posting conversation with a self-described fundamentalist

here on DU in one thread.

We disagreed about a number of issues, but agreed on most others. He was inclined to vote for Kerry.

[The Flaming Red Head]

24. Not a fundie, but I am a southerner who lives in a double wide

don't ya hate me, too?


edited to add: and I don't have billy bass in my living room; my kid broke it years ago.

[UdoKier]

30. Aw shucks.

I used to have a singing, laughing Santa Claus doll, given to me by a fundie relative who lives in Mississippi of all places.

I hated it so much, I put it in a garage sale, couldn't get anything forr it and had to give it away for free.

I don't hate anybody, certainly not trailer dwellers. I've met some who were class acts. None of them were fundies or republicans, though.

I AM, however terrrified of Christian fundamentalists, and the insanity they seek to wreak on this country via the government.

It offends me no end that my child, the son of an atheist and a buddhist, should have to say "under god" or read the ten commandments in a public school. Sorry, but that is NOT America.

[Pepperbelly]

34. i live in a single wide ...

:(

Maybe I can upgrade. But I am in the south as well as yep, there are a lot of folk here who do not like/undersatnd the south or southerners. But what the hell ... the rest of the guys usually gang tackle 'em before any harm is done.

:D

Welcome aboard.

:smoke:

[yardwork]

89. Welcome to DU

I grew up in Appalachia and live in the south. I have never lived in a mobile home, but I know lots of people who do. It's no different than living in an apartment except people in trailers tend to own their own homes and land, and they have bigger yards and more privacy than apartment dwellers.

Stereotypes are ignorant.

[rocktop15]

25. All Fundamentals dont believe that

I live in East TN. Chat to be exact. I have several, several friends who are Church of Christ Fundamentalists and they do belive the earth is like 8000 years old but aren't judgemental or whatnot.

I am a Christian but not a Fundamentalist.

[LanternWaste]

27. I am...

I'm a fundamentalist Christian. I'm also a liberal Democrat. :)

We really don't spend too much time on homosexuality at Church. In fact, I can't remember when that was touched on let, alone a central tenet of any Sunday message.

Nor do we worry about "secular humanists... in the public common". Tolerating something is much different from condoning something-- at least in my opinion.

Hmmm... how do I square my faith with the bigotry and hatred of others? I don't. If I do come across something in the Scripture that tells me to be a bigoted or hateful person, maybe I'll re-evaluate what I've read. But I certainly haven't come across anything in the Scripture that commands me (or even condones me) to do that.

As for other Fundamentalist Christians who do hate--
I simply ask myself: Is that a central core of their faith, or is it simply a central core of who they are and are they simply using their religion to justify their negative actions. I usually end up thinking it's the latter, but I can see why many people don't perceive that.

And just so you know... "fundie" is usually perceived as a pejorative statement by many fundamentalist Christians, myself included. Whether you use that bit of info in the future is completely up to you. :hi:

Hope you don't think I'm deluded or brainwashed or engage in myth worship-- I'm just another guy who happens to hold a few opinions about things differently than you. Not really a big deal :)

[UdoKier]

32. I don't think you're deluded, if you don't think I'm hellbound.

I'm actually refreshed to read your message.

Why do you think people who think like yourself don't have more influence on the fundamentalist churches, Southern Baptist in particular? Do you feel uncomfortable to express your opinion when they go off on a right-wing tangent? Or do you belong to a less extreme sect?

EDIT: apparently I did mention it. Never mind. It's not just bedroom matters, it's the pledge, the commandments, the whole shebang.

Are you against forcing such religious gestures on the general population?

[LanternWaste]

41. Hmmm...

Before I forget... you did mention homosexuality in the initial post. Something about, "queers wanting to marry". That's the only reason I responded to it. :)

People like me do have influence in many fundamentalist churches, but the churches we influence stay quiet and rather... boring by most accounts- and that is precisely the reason we stay under your radar and don't get factored in the "99% of all fundies do this or that..." equation. We don't get on the news at five and we don't provide ammunition for water-cooler discussions, so you don't see us- you merely see the loud ones.

My parish stays out of politics for the most part-- well, it was my parish til I moved out of the country a few months back, but I still consider it home :) We see most political debates as worldly arguments and feel, that while it has its place, is not really worthy of pre-empting discussion and education on The Word itself.

Our political activism is limited to helping fund Meals-On-Wheels, a homes less shelter in the community and helping low-income students get into college.

I'd never cast any "for" vote in a secular election based on forcing anyone to bow, pray or recite anything against a person's will or ideology. I'm satisfied with the Pledge of Allegiance as it stood prior to 1952 and I'm satisfied with out motto, "Out of many, one". A person's faith (or lack of faith) belongs to that person only.


A blind man walks into a party of 30 people. He hears 3 people singing loudly and somewhat abrasively. He immediately walks out because the sound is offensive to his ears. He tells a co-worker the next day that everyone at the party he attended was singing and rails on against how horrible it was. He didn't know that 27 other people left also because of the singing and went to a neighbor's house to continue the soiree.

:P

[UdoKier]

53. What a great post.

You mentioned a parish. Does that mean you're Catholic? or Episcopal?

I didn't know there were fundamentalists other than the Baptist kind.

But you could fill an encyclopedia with the things I don't know about the various religious sects.

[LanternWaste]

63. Presbyterian

I'm Presbyterian. Very low-key kind of thing. Sunday servies are less the "feel-good-clap-your-hands stuff and more analysis and interpretation of Scripture.

Having a difficult time finding a Presbyterian Church in Cancun so I'm thinking about going to a Catholic church when I learn a bit more conversational Spanish...

[Cheswick2.0]

79. Presbyterian USA, or some other?

Just curious since I am a Presby too.

[LanternWaste]

102. Presbyterian Church U.S.A.

Presbyterian Church U.S.A.

...and don't forget, Sept. 21 is the International Day of Prayer for Peace! :)

[Djinn]

33. great so you "tolerate" us

you tolerate something unpleasant like loud neighbours or whinning children. I don't "tolerate" Christians I respect their right to beleive whatever they choose. How can you not "condon" secular folks etc in a country founded on the seperation of church and state?

[sangh0]

39. It's called "Freedom"

and that means we are all free to condone or not, as we please

[Disturbed]

45. Tolerate, accept,, condone.

Those are three different concepts.

[Djinn]

48. who said you weren't

all I said was that you "tolerate" something you dislike or find distasteful - and I thought it was us atheists that weer supposed to be bigoted

[LanternWaste]

44. As do I

As do I respect your right to whatever faith (or lack of faith) you posses. I can easily respect a person yet not condone a particular action he/she chooses.

I'm sure you could easily come up with a litany of things your friends do that you tolerate-- but I doubt that means you respect them any less. :)

Don't be so quick to look for negativity or infer unintended meanings in my posts where none exists. :shrug: I bet we have more things in common than not!

[Djinn]

49. can't think of one

none of my friends DO anything I wouldn't condone (that I know of, natch - they could have bodies stashed under their floorboards for all I know) but there's a difference between condoning (or not) actions and beliefs. You seem to be suggesting that you don't condon removing the ten commandments from public buildings, how can you "not condon" that in a country that's founded on the seperation of church and state?

[LanternWaste]

51. I'm not sure how you infered...

I'm not sure how you inferred that I don't condone the removal of the Ten Commandments from a governmental building. Unless it's in an historical or artistic context I think it's a waste of time, money and effort. If it's in an historical context, say-- displayed with Hammurabi's Code and the Magna Carta, I've got no problem with it. :)

This is from Merriam-Webster--
Condone: To treat as if trivial, harmless, or of no importance.
Tolerance: Sympathy for practices differing from one's own.

I really can't see how a person could read anything negative into the statements I previously made using the two aforementioned words.

If you're insulted that I have am sympathetic to people who's practices differ from mine, then it begs the question-- "Is my complete agreement on the practices you engage in or the things you believe the only way you *wouldn't* be insulted"? Of course, you can see how silly that would be...


If it helps put it into context let me add:
There are a large number of things my closest friends do that I do not condone. It does not force (or even tempt) me to like or respect them any less. Do you think it should? :P

[Djinn]

52. quote

"Nor do we worry about "secular humanists... in the public common". Tolerating something is much different from condoning something-- at least in my opinion."

unless you learnt a different form of english grammar than I did this infers that while you tolerate (Oxford: allow the existence of - endure - treat as endurable) this (again assuming you are quoting from original poster) you do not condone (Oxford: forgive or overlook wrong doing) it.

Tolerate and tolerance are not the same words but either way you left out the full quote from Merriam

Granted I may have taken you out of context but I GUARANTEE had I posted "I tolerate Christians but I don't condone them" I would have been accused of being an anti-christian bigot

[LanternWaste]

59. Well....lol

Well, the quote of mine you used was in fact a direct quote from the original post I was responding to ...lol. I suppose that's where your confusion popped up. :) And as an aside, no-- I don't think I learned a different form of English Grammar than you.


How's this for ya... "I have tolerance for many things I do not condone". Still offended or is that better?

You bet I left out the full definitions. I simply pasted in the definitions that were appropriate to the ideas I was trying to convey. I also left out the etymology and usage since they too were irrelevant to my meaning. Was that wrong?

Again, I think you're looking for bigotry and intolerance on my part where none really exist (well, except for the SF 49'ers...)

Maybe you would get labeled as a bigot if you started a thread stating, "I tolerate Christians but I don't condone them"... but not by me. How about starting a thread like that and we see what the response is? Might be interesting-- maybe we'd both learn a thing or two. :)

[Djinn]

65. but your response to the quote was

that you tolerate but don't condone it - I found the use of "tolerate" odd and that you wouldn't condone it unless you want a nation founded on Christianity. But we're probably getting into semantics and going around in circles.

No way am I posting a thread stating I tolerate but don't condone Christianity because apart from it not being true I get enough grief from certain religious types here already I'd need asbestos undies to deal with the flamage :-) - not most but there are a few who post here who seem to think that Christians are somehow persecuted which is kind of bizarre.

[LanternWaste]

71. Not, "it"

Not "it". The specifics in the opening statement were addressed in my initial post to that statement separately, point-by-point. The phrase, "tolerate but don't condone" was a very general response to a very general phrase about non-specific things that happen in the "public common". I'm sure there are many, many things we have all learned to tolerate that happen in the public common.

I made no implications at all re: what specific things I do or do not tolerate in the pubic common, only that there are "things" which I do not condone. I imagine most people, if they gave it some thought would find numerous instances of things which they tolerate but do not condone. Speaking for myself, it's one of the great things about living in an open society-- for the most part we are not all forced to agree on the same standards or absolutes.

Even if (for argument's sake) I *did* want a nation founded on Christianity, I'm out of luck as it was founded a few centuries back and I'm not a time traveler. I can't really do anything to change the past.

Honestly... I think you simply assumed the worst in my initial meaning and based your responses on that.

[Cheswick2.0]

81. oh come now Djinn, no one here at DU says Christians are persecuted

The only people who say that would not last 15 minutes on this web site.

[Djinn]

107. I'd answer

but then I'd probably just be yapping at heels and establishing a pattern :eyes: - try searching the threads though you'll find them

[wildeyed]

70. great quote

"As for other Fundamentalist Christians who do hate--
I simply ask myself: Is that a central core of their faith, or is it simply a central core of who they are and are they simply using their religion to justify their negative actions. I usually end up thinking it's the latter, but I can see why many people don't perceive that."

Read a great quote the other day, something like this- 'If god hates all the same people you do, might you be guilty of creating god in your own image?'

[Red State Rebel]

47. Evangelical/Fundamentalist Christian Here

I'm not sure what everyone's definition of a fundamentalist is, but here is what I believe:

I am against abortion, I believe that God does everything for a reason and while we may not know that reason or understand it, in the end it will all work out. I believe adoption is the answer to unwanted pregnancies. I was at one time an escort at an abortion clinic as a member of NARAL and my sister has had 2 abortions so it's not like I haven't seen all sides of this picture.

I believe that Jesus Christ fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies and took our sins upon himself to the cross. When he died, he died for us so we may be forgiven of our sins and stand rightously before God when we die.

I believe in judging people for who they are not what they are. Christ associated with the lowest of the low and with those who loved him and tried to live in according to his teachings. He did not discriminate and neither do I. I know what it's like to have sin and guilt on my heart so I try to stay very true his command that we not judge others lest we be judged ourselves. I believe in forgiveness, not just for others, but for releasing the pain of anger and hatred in myself. Unforgiveness is like a cancerous tumor that can eat away at your happiness and your life like nothing else. I believe that the most important things you can every say are "I'm sorry" and "I forgive you".lky

I believe that I don't know everything and will probably never understand all the mysteries of the bible. I listen to my pastor who I believe teaches to the best of his ability and I discern from from that what feels right to me. I'm talking about nuances of the faith, not the basic tenants of Christianity.

I believe in the manifestation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit as described in the book of Acts. Speaking in tongues, healing, prophecies. I don't believe they are to be made into carnival acts but like everything else in my faith, they are private and personal.

I believe that instead of beating people over the head with my faith that best way I can "evangalize" is by my own behaviour and deeds. I believe in the scripture that says "Let your light shine before men that they might see your good deeds and thus praise your father in heaven". I do not believe that I have to do good deeds to earn my ticket to heaven, I am saved by grace.

I believe that I am not perfect, I screw up on a daily basis. I lose my temper on occasion, gossip on occasion, etc. This doesn't necessarily mean I'm a hypocrite, just that I am a human being.

Any questions?

[yvr girl]

60. I don't like the term fundamentalist but...

you might consider me one. I live my life to a pretty strict code. I'm not perfect, but I try to improve. The reason I don't like to be associated with 'fundies' is because I believe that they forget Grace. (God's Riches at Christ's Expense). While I believe it is appropriate for me (or anyone else) to make judgements about others (do I agree/disagree, are their actions right/wrong/neutral etc.) I don't think that it is my place to judge them. It's not my job. I believe that one day all of us will need to account for our actions to God.

I also believe that all people are essentially equal at the foot of the cross. I like to think that I am a reasonably good person but compared to God, I'm not much better than Hitler. By human standards, I'm much better - start with the fact that I haven't killed or injured anyone etc. God is perfect, we're not.

If people ask me what I believe, I'll tell them. I'll make my agruments, but I don't preach at them. I'm never going to convince someone to have a relationship with God. It's not about changing minds, it's about changing hearts. Again, not my job. I'm responsible for living the most authentic life possible. My hope is that no one will ever look at me, and my actions and say, "If that's what a Christian is, I don't want any part of it." If my life points someone to God, that's great.

I have a variety of friends. Many have the same beliefs as me. I also have a several friends who would fit in as characters on 'Sex and the City.' One even writes a column.

On the issues:

Abortion. This is a tough one for me, because I believe that aborting a baby is killing a person. I could never do it. I'm also realistic enough to know that banning abortion will not stop it. It would only take us back to the days of back alley butchers. We actually do not have any law in Canada about abortion. I would like to keep it that way. I think that the best solution for abortion is to have fewer unwanted pregnancies. I also believe in supporting girls who want to give up their babies for adoption. (Or help them to become good parents.)

Gay Marriage. I fully support equal rigthts. In Canada, non-married gay and straight couples (who have been together long enough) have common law status. They are treated the same as married couples under the tax code. They have inheritance rights etc. I like how they do it in many European countries. Everyone needs to get married in a civil ceremony. It is that ceremony that grants the legal status. If they so choose, they can also have a religous ceremony. I believe that each religion should have the right to say who they shall agree to marry.

As far as my religous beliefs go, I divide them into a few categories. There are things that I'm certain of. There are things that I have an informed opinion on, but I won't be dogmatic about. There are things that I don't know, but I trust God enough to believe that if I truly needed to know, I would.

If you're curious, this is what I'm certain about.

The Apostles' Creed
I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:

Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.

He descended into hell.

The third day He arose again from the dead.

He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy *catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.

Amen.

*The word "catholic" refers not to the Roman Catholic Church, but to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ.

[ironflange]

92. Neither of you are what I consider fundamentalist

You both sound sensible middle-of-the-road Christians, who teach by example rather than browbeating. Keep up the good work.

[JNelson6563]

94. One question

How do you feel about you rpersonal religious beliefs voted in as law and all being made to abide by them?

Thanks,
Julie

[shugah]

50. i'm not a fundie, but i have a dear friend that is

"fundamentalist," generally speaking, tends to translate to a literal belief in the bible. all that wrath of god, eye for eye, etc...

i find it sad that so many of the "fundies" these days seem to miss the new testament so completely! one of my best and dearest friends is a real fundie. she is also quite liberal, tho she would balk at that term. she believes the words of jesus christ, as presented in the bible, and does her best to live her life with the gospels as her guide. she is not judgmental, she does not hurt others, she is warm and giving, she cares about people.

she also expects the rapture, and i think is a little sad that someone she loves (me) will not be joining her in heaven. but, she does not try to force me to think the way she does. and i think she hopes her prayers will rapture me too, even tho she knows i don't quite deserve it ;-)

well, we can let the right wing gain a monopolyoy on the gospels of christ. why not? they have a monopoly on everything else at the moment.

i'm not a christian, but as a liberal, i have no problem with the teachings of jesus christ (we-ell, except for that hell thing ;-) )

[UdoKier]

56. I'm no bible scholar, but...

I was under the impression that most bible scholars do NOT believe there is such a thing as a "rapture".

Also, I didn't know Jesus ever spoke of the existence of hell. I could be wrong, but I've never heard of it.

[ckdexter]

103. Actually, Jesus did mention hell

Udo,

(Love the choice of screen name! You're not the real U.K. are you?)

My first thought was the same as yours, but I checked, and we're wrong. Turns out he mentions hell a number of times. A couple of examples:

Matthew 5:22: "whoever says, `You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell."

Matthew 23:33: "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?"

Kind of harsh, huh? A number of people have correctly pointed out that fundamentalist Christians are sometimes selective about which parts of the Bible they emphasize or incorporate into their faith. But to be fair, it's not only the hellfire-obssessed Christians that do this. Christians and non-Christians who have a very loving, tolerant and peaceful image of Christianity often justify this with misleadingly selective use of the Bible, too.

To the fundamentalists who have responded, I've enjoyed reading your thoughtful replies. Lantern Waste, I was particularly impressed by your posts--and by how you kept your cool when explaining yourself in the face of criticism.

I'm an athiest myself, but was raised fundamentalist Baptist. I know many profoundly kind, decent people who share your beliefs, so I can't bear hearing sweeping generalizations about their personalities, politics, motives, intelligence, etc, from people who don't know them and don't know anything about their beliefs. I think you've really educated some people here today. Thanks,

C.K.

[HEyHEY]

55. I think Canuckamok is one

;-)

[shawn703]

57. I am a fundamentalist

if what you mean by that is you believe the Bible to be the inerrant Word of God. If you mean I have to read passages in the Bible and interpret them the same way I'm told to by other fundamentalist Christians, than I would not be a fundamentalist. One example is abortion - my interpretation of the Bible leads me to believe that life begins when God gives you your first breath (Genesis 2:7, Job 33:44). I also think the oft-quoted passage in Jeremiah 1:5 "“Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee" used by anti-abortionists is misinterpreted. God was speaking to Jeremiah, a PROPHET, not to a regular person.

Yes it is possible to be both liberal and an evangelical Christian. And my pastor does preach against homosexuality and secular humanism, and when he talks about politics from the pulpit, I can tell he'll vote for Bush in this election.

The difference, in my case anyway, is that I think that people should obey God of their own free will and not because you're forced to.

[Djinn]

66. can't agree on the word of God stuff

just because it was not written by God but by fallible humans - but I had to say it's really nice to hear someone who considers themselves as a beleiver in the Bible as word of God acknowledge ALL of the relevant passages in the Bible rather than cherry picking ones that fit an agenda, I honestly don't think I've ever heard a Bible passage being used to negate an anti-choice position so YEAH on that one. :hi:

[pelagius]

64. Former Fundie, Current Christian, and LIBERAL!

Just another Christian outing himself here. I'm now Episcopalian, but was raised fundamentalist. I think that thing that threw me was that I believed that the Bible was the inspired, inerrant, authoritative Word of God, but most of the "fundies" I knew (including many highly skilled teachers) referred to it rather selectively. As I began to read the Bible and study for myself, I came to the conclusion that God had a lot more to say about economic justice than he did sexual behavior or other things that (then and now) preoccupy most of my "fundie" cohorts. I will so bold as to state that my Bible studies led me to liberalism. It's a natural progression if you read the Bible open-mindedly.

[Mike Niendorff]

97. ex-fundie here

Born and raised into it, managed to escape into reality after 20 years of immersion in that delusional, half-baked, paranoid hell.


MDN

[left is right]

104. I'm a fundie and a liberal

I believe in each and every fundamental of the Christian faith. God created the world. Created us in His image. Jesus is God and God's son. He lived a sinless life. Crucified as atonement for sins. Raised from the dead. The Bible contains great truth. I am a liberal for two main reasons--First, I believe that we are what God has made us and God gifted my genes with a streak of liberalism and second, because I believe with all my heart that God expects us to act liberally toward others. We are to give to the poor, treat them with respect and dignity. Live honest and decent lives. Turn the other cheek even when it comes to actions that could lead to war. Money should not be our primary pursuit. Acknowledge that we can stand before Him only because of the redemptive work of Christ and that should make us humble with no room for boasting. I believe that on Judgment Day we all will answer for our failures (sins). I think that most people on that day will be shocked to learn that God considers pride and bitterness to be more sinful than sex--even homosexual or adulterous sex. We will answer for every time we fail to lift up the down-trodden. I am a fundie. I only hope that the Republicans would also act like fundies.

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

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