Terrorists were White and Russian!?

[goclark]

I was listening to the news all weekend about the horror in Russia. I cried to see the footage and the sadness of the families.
My prayers go out to the Russian people for suffering this enormous tragedy.

I just kept hearing "terrorists, bad people,terrorists,killed children in their school."

I don't recall them ever saying,until they showed the pictures today, that they were homegrown terrorists.

I also recall Bush saying something about "those terrorists in Russia." I honestly believed that the terrorists were Muslim and a part of the OBL group.

Did I miss something or did Timothy McVeigh have relatives in Russia?

Does Russia have a Homeland Security Department? Will we stop honoring any Passports from that region? Will someone get arrested if they say, "Vodka please!"

[UpsideDownFlag]

1. problem: russians aren't swarthy.

they slip past the profilers at the airport.

[Maple]

2. And Chechens are what?

[UpsideDownFlag]

4. white, blonde or brown haired.

almost all of em.

(should i have added a sarcasm smiley?)

[Maple]

21. No, I assumed you were

joking with that remark. ;)

[UpsideDownFlag]

24. lol, alrighty.

it is an interesting problem, though.

timothy mcveigh, ted kaczisnki, and co. have been reliably un-swarthy and unmuslim.

[slor]

3. You do not need to be Middle eastern...

to be a muslim or a terrorist. We have the Krar people right here at home.

[Must_B_Free]

5. were they muslims?

[LisaL]

7. Chechens are muslims.

[LisaL]

6. What in the world are you talking about?

Terrorists were not Russian.
Most of them are Chechens.

[Sufi Marmot]

23. So weren't most of the victims then North Ossetian?

...rather than (ethnically) Russian?

:shrug:

-SM, who wonders if people aren't confusing ethnicity with nationality.

[LisaL]

25. Ossetians are Christians.

Chechens are Muslims and Ingush are Muslims.

[BlueStateGirl]

8. It's been reported from the beginning they were Chechen. With

exception of the 10 who were said to be Arab
mercanaries.


I don't recall seeing anyone in the media saying this was Al Qeadea.
Chechens are Muslim, but not Arabic,

[goclark]

28. What did GW say they were?

I really don't remember him saying they were NOT associated with OBL etc.

My question is... was Bush,or the Media,"forgetting" to let us know that there was no known connection to the Middle East?
My impression was that they were using this tragedy for their political "fear"games.

[progressivebydesign]

58. The Arabs were linked to Al Quaida in several reports...

.. but I don't know if there was ever a real link.

[Maple]

9. No one,even in Russia,

knows who the hostage-takers were.

We do know it has nothing to do with Al Qaeda, and it's doubtful it has anything to do with Chechens either. So please stop blaming people at random.

[LisaL]

11. They certainly know who they are.

Most of them were killed, so they have their bodies.
They also have one surviving Chechen terrorist.

[Maple]

15. No they don't

but they do like blaming Chechens, no matter what happens.

It makes the massacre of Chechens so much easier, if you can get people worked up.

No one actually knows who they are.

[LisaL]

16. How can they not know

when they have their dead bodies?
They know exactly who they are, including names.

[Maple]

19. The bodies are in pieces for one thing

and for another, that is the 'official' report, and Putin has reason to blame Chechens. It would allow him to go all out on an attack.

Chechnya has been fighting for independence for years. There is no connection to 911 or anything else. And they certainly wouldn't be blowing up schoolchildren and bringing world condemnation, and Russian revenge down on themselves. Which is why they denied any connetion to it within hours of it starting.

Hostages say none of them were Arab, or Chechen. Just a motley collection of people in a variety of clothing, including new issue NATO camoflauge.

[LisaL]

26. Hostages did not say

none of them were Chechens.
They even got a surviving Chechen terrorist, who wants to live so he is spilling the beans on everybody.
How in the world can you say hostages said none of the terrorists were Chechens?
It's absolutely not true.

[Maple]

33. You are watching

'official' Russian reports. Russia has been attacking Chechnya for years, and want the unrestricted right to wipe them out.

No more reliable than 'official' Bush war reports.

Chechens said they have no connection to it, and indeed, it's unlikely any Chechen would be involved. There is no gain here for Chechyna. There is a gain for Russia.

Don't fall for state propaganda, no matter what govt puts it out.

[makhno]

38. What are you talking about?

Hostages clearly said in interviews that at least some of the terrorists were Chechen.

[Maple]

41. Please pay attention here

You are watching official Russian news. It doesn't bear any relation to reality, and never has.

It was a ragtag band of mercenaries. Not any sanctioned Chechen move. Indeed Chechens wouldn't have done such a stupid thing. What would be the benefit to Chechens to do such a thing?

What, however, would be the benefit to others to lay the blame on Chechens?

Think about things before you post.

[LisaL]

42. And why in the world wouldn't Chechen do such a thing?

What are they, sweet peace loving people?
I don't think so.
As for the goal, the surviving Chechen claims the goal is to start all out WAR in the region.

[Maple]

45. And get world condemnation

and Russia in a full scale attack against them? No.

Chechens have been fighting for independence for a century or so.

It stepped up after the USSR fell, and they looked to the west for the kind of help other breakaway countries got. We ignored them.

They've done a low level resistance ever since, much like the Iraqi insurgents have done. Russia has been brutal to them, killing thousands, including children.

The world has protested. The US protested.

After 911, Putin wanted to attack the Chechens as 'terrorists' taking a page from Bush's book. Bush said no. Oil is involved here after all.

So...'suddenly' the Chechens are guilty of 'an atrocity' and Putin figures he now has permission to commit genocide.

Something the Chechens said they didn't do, even though they are quick to take responsibility for other attacks they did do.

However, the world, and Bush still say no...dagnabit. So Putin is now angry at the west.

Can you figure out the 'why' behind all this?

[LisaL]

47. Oh, please!

When the planes went down, Russia didn't even want to say it was terrorism.
They also apparently lied about number of people killed by terrorists, trying to keep the number of victim's down.
And why would they do it, if the goal was to get World's condemnation?
The more the merrier, right? And why does Putin need Bush's permission anyway? What do you think Bush can do if Putin doesn't listen to him?

:eyes:

[makhno]

49. Don't make me laugh

What did the Chechens gain by taking hostages at the Dubrovka theater? What did they gain by the suicide bombings in Tushino? More generally, what do terrorists hope to gain by their attacks?

How about forcing their opponent to revise its policy by exercising pressure on the opponent's constituency? That is the goal of terrorism, flawed as the strategy has proved to be.

Now, if you want to engage in a more rational discussion of how and why Russia's extensive security appartus has allowed attack after attack to happen and what might the Putin regime gain by an atmosphere of perpetual terror, we might actually have a discussion.

However, as you probably also believe that the official media is downplaying the WTC missile, the Pentagon drone and the Easter Bunny theories, I'm likely wasting my time.

[Sufi Marmot]

30. Why do you think that "Chechens" are a monolithic entity?

Chechnya has been fighting for independence for years. There is no connection to 911 or anything else. And they certainly wouldn't be blowing up schoolchildren and bringing world condemnation, and Russian revenge down on themselves. Which is why they denied any connetion to it within hours of it starting. Isn't it possible (even likely) that given the chaos in Chechnya there are multiple groups (including non-Chechens) operating in (and around) Chechnya, with agendas that don't completely overlap? I will grant the possibility that maybe the terrorists weren't strict Chechen nationalists, per se, but to me it's certainly plausible that a mixed group of Chechen and non-Chechen Islamists are responsible.

-SM

[Sufi Marmot]

20. What's the evidence for either of those two statements? n/t

[Cleita]

10. There are many so-called white muslims.

There are also non-muslim white terrorists. The IRA comes to mind. Or in our country the Aryan Nation, who also claim to be a Christian church.

[maveric]

13. The IRA are terrorists?

Here comes the flames.

[Cleita]

14. Yeah, and I knew in the past Irish Catholics from Belfast

who felt they caused more troubles than they helped. You know when you blow up women and children even though they supposedly are the enemy you become a terrorist. It's that simple.

[SomthingsGotaGive]

36. So are American G.Is terrorists ?

They have killed a lot of women and children.

A lot more than 400.

Does it not count if you do it wearing a uniform or from 30 000 feet in the air?

[Cleita]

37. I would say they are working for a terrorist.

They know it too.

[SomthingsGotaGive]

40. So then the people that took the school hostage.

Are they just working for terrorists.

They were wearing uniforms. Were they following orders.

I don't think we can split hairs like this

Either baby killers are terrorists or they are not.

If we are going to change things we need to stop justifying the actions of some while vilifying those same actions committed by others.

[Cleita]

56. This argument could take a thread of it's own.

If you want to believe that the IRA are freedom fighters, I guess trying to argue the point would be like trying to tell a freeper that Bush is a fascist and an unelected fraud. My husband is a native of Limerick, Ireland so I do get a different view expressed about the IRA and the Provos. You may have the Sinn Fein, who are legitimate and a political party, confused with the guys who are the ones setting off bombs to kill civilians.

Remember it was the IRA who started training all these Middle Eastern terrorists groups in Libya and Lebanon with the guerilla tactics, making bombs and working out of cells that was so successful for them. The Chechnyans no doubt have been trained by other muslim terrorsit groups in those same tactics.

On edit: I forgot about the uniforms. Right here in the good old USA, the Aryan Nation dresses up in brownshirt uniforms with little swastika emblems and they parade down the streets of Coeur d' Alene, Idaho once a year. It's quite a sight to see. So far the AN hasn't bombed anyone, but they commit the lion's share of crimes in the Inland Northwest.

It also makes you wonder if Timothy McVeigh and Ten Kazinsky might have been affiliated with them. The crafty old Reverend Butler always disassociates his "church" with anyone caught in a criminal activity that can be traced back to them. You see the same with the ME terrorists. Just because we don't see baggy pants and headgear as uniforms, they very much are especially the head scarf, which formerly were tribal.

[BayouBengal07]

12. Obviously

They hate Russia's freedom.

[TA]

17. Don't forget about the terrorist with multi-able weapons in Texas

Was in the news about 6 months ago. The white male with a Christian back ground was found with a garage full of major weapons and ammo. Comparable to Timothy McVeigh. Funny how it quickly disappeared from the news.

[Sufi Marmot]

18. Are Russians and Chechens distinguishable by appearance?

As far as I'm concerned they aren't.

I honestly believed that the terrorists were Muslim and a part of the OBL group. They could be both and still be Caucasian (both in the literal sense and in is popular usage).

-SM

[poppabear36]

31. The man in your avatar

is Caucasian and a Muslim.

[Sufi Marmot]

53. He sure is...

...although, lucky for us, neither Chechen nor Russian. :-)

And most people, presented with the superficial details of his present life, probably wouldn't recognize him as a Muslim.

-SM

[librechik]

22. One of the terrorists said "We need to start a war"

Provocateurs.

[Swede]

29. Sounds like the Chechen rebel Basayez ordered it.

TERRORIST STATEMENT: We were gathered in a forest and our commander, who's nicknamed "Colonel" announced that we would seize the school in Beslan. He told us that it was ordered by Chechen rebel leaders Aslan Maskhadov and Shamil Basayev.

Our group consisted of various nationalities – there were Uzbeks, Arabs, and also some of us were Chechens. When we asked Colonel why we had to do it, he explained that the goal was to unleash war throughout the Caucasus.

http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2004/s1193825.htm

Although this could be disinformation too.

[Aidoneus]

34. that obviously is disinfo..

"the Colonel" is an obvious attempt to suggest Maskhadov ordered it, which is plainly absurd.

I doubt Basayev would either. When he announced "Operation Boomerang", schools were specifically off limits, and he is not a liar.

People here should be experienced enough dodging the Bush gang's bullshit to sense the sort of lies flying out.

[Pallas180]

27. "Semitic is a Language Group, Not a Race or Ethnic Group" by

Sam Hamod: Semitic is a Language Group, Not a Race or Ethnic Group
... is aware of his own history within semitic language speaking ... people who are
anti-Jewish or anti-Arab, or anti ... or attack others based on their race or ethnicity ...
www.counterpunch.org/hamod07122003.html - 58k - Sep 5, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages

[Aidoneus]

32. Ingushes, Ossets, Tatars, Kazakhs, Uzbekhs, Russians, Koreans,

Daghestanis, and maybe a Chechen or two. That's who various Russian officials have suggested as being involved.

...

oh.

[Maple]

35. Yes exactly, a motley collection of people

from all over, in a variety of clothing.

NOT the way the Russians originally tried to present it to the world.

But, E for effort as they say.

[LisaL]

39. Well, could you provide a link

that they only had a Chechen or two?
The guy who survived is definitely Chechen, and there were certainly more than a Chechen or two who were killed.

[Maple]

43. Sure.

Even Russians Question The Terrorist Idea

"Like some Western leaders, critics in Russia questioned Putin's stance that Russia was the victim of international terrorism rather than home grown Chechen militants.

"The official claim that international terrorism is behind the Beslan tragedy is a trick designed to divert responsibility away from the Kremlin," said liberal politician Boris Nemtsov."

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=PZXNJBP2HVIPACRBAELCFFA?type=topNews&storyID=6161445&pageNumber=1

Putin now blames west for whole thing.

"Mr. Putin took a defiant tone, acknowledging corruption in Russian law-enforcement agencies but lashing out pointedly at unspecified foreign foes seeking to tear the country apart.

"Some want to cut off a juicy morsel from us; others are helping them. They are helping, believing that Russia, as one of the world's biggest nuclear powers, is still posing a threat to them," Mr. Putin said. "Therefore, this threat must be removed."

Analysts said Mr. Putin had turned a new page in his foreign policy, blaming terrorism on the West. "(W)ho fears our nuclear weapons? Who are they aimed at? It's the West. It's not Osama bin Laden," said Pavel Felgenhauer, an independent military analyst."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040905.wbeslan0905/BNStory/Front

Now no Arabs were involved

In another development, the early government claim that up to 10 of the militants were Arab was coming under scrutiny.

No evidence has been presented to support that, and residents of Beslan were skeptical. Some who had looked at the bodies of dead militants said it didn't appear there were any Arabs among them.

A few former hostages said they thought the militants were Chechens, and one suspect shown on Russia's state-controlled Channel One spoke Russian.

Channel One, without citing sources, said the hostage-takers included Chechens, Ingush, Arabs, Kazakhs and Slavs. Earlier reports by Russian media said the hostage-takers included Chechens, Ingush and a North Ossetian.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1094387774071_12/?hub=TopStories

Moscow slams Chechen's US asylum

Russian officials have condemned a decision by the US to grant asylum to a high-ranking Chechen separatist, who Moscow says is a terrorist.
Ilyas Akhmadov was foreign minister in the separatist Chechen government led by Aslan Maskhadov from 1997 to 1999.

The senior pro-Russian Chechen official in Moscow described the move as a "sign of US double standards".

Observers say Russia has repeatedly failed to convince foreign governments to extradite alleged extremists.

But BBC regional analyst Steven Eke says the US has been noticeably less critical of Russian conduct in Chechnya since President George W Bush launched his "war on terror".

However, our correspondent notes that Russia interprets foreign refusals to extradite alleged militants as tolerance of terrorism when it is aimed against Russian targets.

A senior adviser to President Vladimir Putin suggested the decision would cast a cloud over US-Russian relations.

Objections dropped

Mr Akhmadov is the latest representative of the separatist Chechen leadership to be granted asylum in a foreign country.

Former President Maskhadov's government dispersed and went into hiding following the Russian decision to send troops back into Chechnya in 1999.

Mr Akhmadov fled to the US two years ago and was granted asylum after security officials dropped objections.

Earlier this year, Mr Maskhadov's representative, Akhmed Zakayev, was granted asylum in the UK, which also angered Moscow.

For their part, foreign governments point to the unexplained deaths of Chechen rebels in custody, and the widespread use of torture in Russia.

Our analyst says foreign officials have also pointed out that Russian evidence, presented to extradition hearings, has been inconsistent and, at times, obviously fabricated.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3542560.stm

School attackers wore NATO issued camouflage

The attackers - described by the authorities as including Chechens, Ingush, ethnic Russians and some still-unidentified foreigners - seemed to follow a plan after they seized the school with precision and alacrity, forcing their hostages to help place explosives and build barricades that limited the options of Russian forces outside.

The attackers wore NATO-issued camouflage. They carried gas masks, compasses and first-aid kits. They communicated with hand-held radios, and brought along two sentry dogs, as expertly trained as the attackers themselves, the officials said. All suggested detailed planning, including surveillance and possibly rehearsals, the officials said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/06/international/europe/06plot.html?hp


In other words...no one knows for sure who or what they are, although it would be easy enough to drag a Chechen speaker in front of the camera, but Putin is trying mightily to blame first Al Qaeda, and when that doesn't work, Chechens. Then he gets angry at the US for not going along with either scenario.

Neither does anyone in the town involved.

Wait upon events. Eventually it will all become clear.

[LisaL]

44. Hmm.

That link sure doesn't prove there were no Chechens involved, does it?
:eyes:

[Djinn]

46. how on earth do you know that??

even if you were qualified to tell from a few brief words whether someone was speaking with a Chechen accent (which I'm doubting) that does not mean he's ethnically Chechen.

How are you so damn sure this was all planned and executed by Chechens...the only thing I'm sure of these days is that I can'tr be sure of anything

[LisaL]

48. WTF does it have to do with Chechen accent?

I couldn't even begin to know what Chechen accent it. The Russians have shown this guy on TV, they know his name, they identified him, and he is from Chechnya. He is Chechen. His family is Chechen. LOL.

[Djinn]

50. oh right

so you're basing this soley on what the Russian government has to say - excuse while I roll on the floor pissing myself for a while. Can you say naive?

[LisaL]

51. Well, who did it and why?

Since you are so non-naive and all...
:eyes:

[makhno]

52. It's the FSB, don't you know

They couldn't find a reason to make a move on Chechnya before, but this provides a perfect pretext. Just like Iraq! ... oh wait.

[LisaL]

54. LOL.

Obviously, Putin had plenty of reasons before this hideous act.

[Djinn]

55. I don't know

I just know better than to beleive what I hear - particularly from state media.

I also know the situation is a little more complex and longstanding than you make it out to be. YAWN

[Yupster]

57. Book recommendation

This is a book about an American who became a Muslim in prison, and then was trained as a jihadi warrior in Afghanistan. He ended up going on jihad in Kashmir, and twice to Chechnya where he was seriously wounded. He eventually turned against the Chechnyans because they were targetting civilians rather than defending Islam like he thought they should.

This is a wild guy telling his wild story, but it tells the story of what's been going on in Chechnya, from the Chechnyan side. This guy's experiences were in the 90's. Part of the story is how he slipped over the many borders to get into Chechnya with hundreds of other Islamic holy warriors mostly from Arabia to fight alongside the Chechnyans.

Check your library.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1585745650/103-7882722-7454263

[Djinn]

62. tells the story of Chechnya from a Chechen side

as told by an American who was there for a few years?

[Yupster]

63. It's a book recommendation

It tells why a guy would drop his whole life time after time and fly around the world to fight in wars as his jihad.

It taught me a lot about an idea I just can't even fathom. I think the fact that he's an American makes it easier to follow his thinking, though I by no means can understand why he did what he did.

If you don't want to read a first person book about a guy's jihad, then don't.

If you have better first person accounts, recommend them.

I think it's an important topic to know about today, especially since at least some of the terrorists who murdered the schoolkids were apparently not Chechnyans. They sounded just like the guys this guy met in Chechnya ten years ago.

[Djinn]

64. if I want to read about an American's converison

to militant Islam and jihad then it'd be a good book no doubt - I just disputed that it was told from the Chechen side

[cheezus]

59. 1 part vodka, 2 parts kaluha, 2 parts cream, fill to top with terrorists

[Yupster]

60. Donations to Victims

The Russian Embassy is accepting donations if anyone's interested

2650 Wisconsin Ave
NW Washington DC 20007

Please make checks payable to:
Embassy of the Russian Federation in the USA

Please clearly mark checks:

To the victims of Beslan attack

Please mail your checks to:
2650 Wisconsin Ave., NW, Washington DC 20007
Please make sure to include the following information:
Your name, street address, telephone and e-mail address (All of your personal information will be held in the strictest confidence by the Embassy, and will never be released to any third party individuals or organizations.)

[theboss]

61. Have you not read the papers over the last decade?

I know I am often a smart ass, but come on....how can you not know what has been going on in Chechnya? Chechnyans are Caucasions (living in the Caucus Mountains will do that to you), who happen to be Muslim. They also are arguably Russian, since Chechnya has been part of greater Russia since tsarist times.

What is interesting about the Chechnyan war is that it did not initially begin as a war between Islamic radicals and Russians. That has slowly evolved over time. It was originally simply a nationalistic struggle. I think that Russia is to blame for the radicalizing of the rebels due to their extreme heavy-handidness in dealing with Chechnya. Your own mileage may vary on that issue.

But I don't think any abuse justifies what happened last week to those children. And I think Chechnya is about to experience some real barbarity as a result. A pissed-off Russian army in a vengengeful mood is a very scary thought.