Well, the plot thickens in Russian hostage incident.

[slojim240]

No Chechens among the dead hostage-takers.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,5010670-103610,00.html

Now who would benefit from pitting Russia against the Muslim Chechens?
You have to wonder about this.

[jdj]

1. I'm speechless...

I really don't know what to say or think..

[Junkdrawer]

2. Or tying up the Russian military so that they couldn't interfere with,

say, an Iranian invasion?

:tinfoilhat:

[LisaL]

3. This has got to be bogus.

The surviving terrorist that you link lists, Nur-Pashi Kulayev, is Chechen.
How in the world can they say there were no Chechens, when the one they show on TV spilling the beans is Chechen?

[JanMichael]

7. They said that none of the DEAD which hade been identified were

Chechen.

What that means in the end I have no idea.

[LisaL]

12. That's not true either.

Mr. Nur-Pashi Kulayev's brother participated in the attack, and was killed. He is Chechen also.

[JanMichael]

41. So what? I simply pointed out that there's some mixed messages.

BTW what I said was true from the reading of the article:

"Not a single Chechen has been found among the dead gunmen who took children hostage in Beslan last week, Sergei Ivanov, Russia's defence minister, told the Guardian yesterday. "About half of the 32 terrorists have been identified and we have not yet discovered anyone from Chechnya," he said."

Gee, I wonder if the brother could be one of the 16 or so that haven't been identified?

Also, why would there be so many non-Chechens if this was a Chechen operation?

[SoCalDemocrat]

45. grain of salt

Be careful about dis-information and where it may come from.

The Russians seek to benefit if they can link this to Al Qaeda. They would LOVE nothing more than to have the U.S. backing them in their civil-war.

I heard an initial report that said just 10% of the terrorists were Muslim.

Don't believe what you read on this, especially if the source is Russian.

[Aidoneus]

13. Kulayev is actually from an Ingush village according to some

Of course, there are competing claims.

Various Russian officials have been claiming, at some point or another, that the gunmen were Ingush, Osset, Russian (or "Slav"), Kabarda, Kazakh, Uzbekh, Tatarstani, Arab (which no witness or anybody inside would ever back up), some giant black guy, various Daghestani nations, and Korean. I would believe the 'Black Widows' were Chechen, but that is the only I have seen.

...Korean?!--Yes, Korean.

[Aidoneus]

15. no wait, I am confusing him

this man Kulayev has been in Russian prison custody for three years, having been seized by FSB in 2001 after battles fought.

[LisaL]

16. Yes, the surviving terrorist

Nur-Pashi Kulayev is from the Chechen village. His brother who died is obviously also Chechen.
There also several other Chechens dead who have been identified by name.
The rest of the terrorists apparently were a mixed group.

[Aidoneus]

18. I got that, but it still seems off

for example,
1) Ivanov's remark above.. no independent rogue is he, but rather a loyal gov't line Minister
2) this man being in jail for the last 3 years, suddenly to turn up and read from the script

[Aidoneus]

20. and for semantics

if this man is alive, then he wouldn't have been found dead, now would he.. but that's a minor matter at this stage.

[LisaL]

21. It's not the same man, I presume.

I am talking about Nur-Pashi Kulayev. I don't think he was in jail for 3 years.

[Aidoneus]

23. ok, I need to sort through a few things ('sort of' sorted now)

have about 5 rough translations of old & new articles open, have some conflicting matters to sort through on this.

it finally happened, I have read too much in the last week.

Now that's bizarre--while trying to make sense of things, I research the names. A very small handful of Russian-language references to a Kulayev held hostage by FSB back in 2001, and there's nothing else on these "infamous Kulayev brothers" up until September 6th. They have nice stories written up for them now, when it's convenient, but these infamous men were virtually unpersons until then. Khanpasha being the one I'm thinking of, held in captivity since that 2001 reference then suddenly turns up in Beslan 5 days ago, dead. Then his brother reads the script that the war party wants to have heard. There are times that I wish I wasn't so fucking cynical.

[Aidoneus]

24. so my new mystery, before I lose interest for the night and paint the town

is who that 'really Ingush' guy was. Read in passing earlier in the evening along with a dozen other pieces, now what was it.. :cry:

[TheDebbieDee]

4. So, are you thinking this school hostage thing......................

was the Russians' LIHOP or MIHOP?

[lovuian]

5. I heard they were Militant Saudis

just like 9/11 they were Saudis too

Somebody needs to talk to His Highness!!! and see what he has to say

[Ms. Clio]

6. Maybe the "Committee for Peace in Chechnya"

Brought to us by some of the same folks who signed onto PNAC and a similar committee to bring "democracy" to Iraq.

http://www.peaceinchechnya.org/about_members.htm

Elliott Abrams
Zbigniew Brzezinski
Midge Decter
Robert Kagan
Richard Pipes
Norman Podhoretz
Richard Perle
R. James Woolsey

[Disturbed]

9. Oh, I get it now.

I was wondering about a post yesterday about Russia attacking Arabia.

Ya know the Neo Fascists promote that, as well.

Guess that would disturb the Bush Crime Family though.

[Ms. Clio]

22. The NeoFascists want nothing less than a crusade

How all this fits into their evil schemes is beyond my feeble reckoning, but I don't believe anything is what it appears to be.

[Junkdrawer]

10. The RW talks shows yesterday were saying...

"That's why people love Bush - They know he is the only candidate that will kill the terrorists"...

Meanwhile...

U.S. calls for diplomacy with Chechens

[Ms. Clio]

17. "Why don't you meet Osama bin Laden (from your link)

Why don't you meet Osama bin Laden, invite him to Brussels or to the White House and engage in talks, ask him what he wants and give it to him so he leaves you in peace?" the Guardian quoted Putin as saying sarcastically.

"You find it possible to set some limitations in your dealings with these bastards, so why should we talk to people who are child-killers?"


Putin does appear to have a point, here. Just imagine the self-righteous shrieks of outrage that would erupt if a world leader suggested that Bush do something similar.

I sure don't pretend to know what the hell is going on--but I am certain there are wheels within wheels, and that nothing is as simple as it appears.

[peacetalksforall]

14. Along with all the PNAC and right wing operatives, the list includes -

Geraldine Ferraro
Richard Gere
Thomas Kean

[Ms. Clio]

19. I know, I saw that--Richard Gere???

Like, WTF?

[smirkymonkey]

42. Check out Pipes' timely piece in today's NYT

Hmmmm....

"Give the Chechens a Land of Their Own
By RICHARD PIPES

Published: September 9, 2004

"The terrorist attack in Beslan in Russia's North Caucasus was not only bloody but viciously sadistic: the children taken hostage by pro-Chechen terrorists were denied food and drink and even forbidden to go to the bathroom, then massacred when the siege was broken. It is proper for the civilized world to express outrage and feel solidarity with the Russian people. But to say this is not necessarily to agree with those - including President Bush and President Vladimir Putin of Russia - who would equate the massacre with the 9/11 attacks and Islamic terrorism in general...."(more sentimental bullshit about freedom when we all know what they are really interested in)

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/09/opinion/09pipes.html

[Ms. Clio]

43. Damn, the gall of these people is astounding

From the link:

This history makes clear how the events in Russia differ from 9/11. The attacks on New York and the Pentagon were unprovoked and had no specific objective. Rather, they were part of a general assault of Islamic extremists bent on destroying non-Islamic civilizations. As such, America's war with Al Qaeda is non-negotiable. But the Chechens do not seek to destroy Russia - thus there is always an opportunity for compromise.

Never mind that bin Laden said that al-Q did have specific reasons for attacking on 9/11 (whether they were valid or not is another argument, of course). Just put the old clash of civilizations thesis out there, like his Muslim-hating son, Daniel.

And this!:

The Russians ought to learn from the French. France, too, was once involved in a bloody colonial war in which thousands fell victim of terrorist violence. The Algerian war began in 1954 and dragged on without an end in sight, until Charles de Gaulle courageously solved the conflict by granting Algeria independence in 1962.

Until and unless Moscow follows the French example, the terrorist menace will not be alleviated....

That someone could write this in all seriousness, while the U.S. is ravaging Iraq in a bloody colonial war, and is threatening Iran and Syria, just boggles the mind.

Thanks for posting this link.

[rfkrocks]

8. Holy Shit

I like the guardian but how likely is this? Is the American media reporting this? Didn't the Chechens have the same fundie whabi(spelling) schools put there by the Saudis (like Pakistan)-are they Saudis?

[LisaL]

11. It has got to be bogus.

That says no chechens were identified, yet lists a surviving terrorist Nur-Pashi Kulayev, who is Chechen.
Other terrorists from Checnya have been also identified by name by Russians.

[Minstrel Boy]

25. xymphora has a very interesting take on Beslan today:

What if the Russian school attack had nothing to do with terrorism, at least as the term is currently understood, and everything to do with the geopolitics of oil? Putin appears to be trying to create a Russian-European oil alliance to compete with the Bush Administration's attempts to corral the whole world oil supply. Conspiracy theorists suggest that his attacks against Yukos were to stop the dalliance of Yukos management with American oil companies. The North Ossetia school attack made Putin look weak and vulnerable - not something he is used to - and his political stature in Russia could not stand any more such attacks. At the same time, he can't agree to any concessions with the Chechens or any of their neighboring troubled areas (presumably, his hard core base won't accept any further diminution of the traditional Russian empire). After the school attack, Putin is immediately interested in falling in with the American model of a 'war on terrorism', seeing it as a Manachaean fight of Good versus the Evil Islamic fundamentalists (Putin: "Why talk to child killers?"). Putin is even supposed to be bargaining with Israel for cooperation in fighting the terrorists. Israel and the United States may be running a sort of protection racket, with Israel agreeing to 'help' Russia prevent terrorism in return for a change in attitude of Russia towards Syria, the Palestinians, and Iraq, and the United States agreeing to do what it can to ensure the school attack isn't repeated in return for Russian agreement to the American dominance in the world oil supply. It's like the Mafia agreeing to protect your store windows in return for a weekly payment, with the understanding that if you don't pay, the Mafia itself will send somebody to break them (Greece's hiring of Israel to provide security at the Olympics seemed to be a similar case of paying off the greatest threat). Do the Russians think that the CIA and/or the Mossad are really the prime movers behind the school attack? Was Putin's attack on American tacit support for Chechen leaders - something which, by the way, shows just how incredibly bogus the whole American 'war on terror' is - his way of expressing who he really thinks was behind the school attack? Based on the complete absence of evidence of a plausible tie to Islamic fundamentalist terrorism, it wouldn't be a bad guess to think that this attack was a threat to Putin to stay in line with respect to neocon plans for the Middle East and the control of oil.
http://xymphora.blogspot.com/2004/09/beslan.html

[Ms. Clio]

26. That makes a lot of sense to me, sounds very plausible

I found this article at the Committee for Peace in Chechnya website, too, which notes the U.S.'s former supportive stance on the Chechens:

In 1999 the Chechen insurgents were typically portrayed in the United States as Afghan-style "freedom fighters" engaged in a heroic David-versus-Goliath struggle against the neo-Russian imperium. The anti-Russian Chechen resistance was hardly viewed as a component of Osama bin Laden's "World Islamic Front for Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders," which had been formed to expel the United States from Saudi Arabia in 1998. Condoleeza Rice, the future president's National Security Advisor, best summed up the Bush administration's views of the Chechens when she announced that "not every Chechen is a terrorist and the Chechens' legitimate aspirations for a political solution should be pursued by the Russian government." <2>

Such sentiments were not limited to the American right. Zbigniew Brzezinski, Democratic President Jimmy Carter's influential National Security Advisor, similarly said of the Second Russo-Chechen War: "What should be done? To start with the U.S. should not fall for Russia's entreaty that 'we are allies against Osama bin Laden'...Terrorism is neither the geopolitical nor moral challenge here (in Chechnya)." <3>

Fast-forward two years later to the aftermath of al Qaeda's kamikaze attack on the United States. As the domestically focused Bush administration surveyed Eurasia through the new prism of the global war on terror, the Chechen resistance, whose objectives (that is, national self-determination of the sort achieved by the Baltic states) were once looked upon with a degree of tacit sympathy by the Bush administration, was suddenly discovered to be in league with the "evil ones" responsible for 9/11.

In a volte-face that stunned the moderate Chechen leadership of President Aslan Maskhadov, a pragmatic leader known for his struggle to crush Islamic extremists attempting to infiltrate his own republic, President Bush now declared that "Arab terrorists" linked to Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda organization were operating on Chechen territory and ought to be "brought to justice." <4>. U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell went a step further and proclaimed "Russia is fighting terrorists in Chechnya, there is no question about that, and we understand that." <5>

http://www.peaceinchechnya.org/news/200310-11%20-%20BGW%20Article.htm

[RegexReader]

46. Questions are not facts

The Russians love their children too much for this. Especially when there is so few of them now in Russia. If this outed as a Putin lead plot, his own guards would execute him.

Again, a question is not a fact. Based on the complete absence of evidence of a plausible tie to Islamic fundamentalist terrorism,

Try http://www.lenta.ru/terror/2004/09/10/colonel/

with BabelFish to get a better idea of what the terrorist leader was like

http://babelfish.altavista.com/tr

After reading that blog, I really wish I had invested in tinfoil futures rather than dot com stocks.

RegexReader

[CaTeacher]

27. some muslim leaders

are saying that Zionists could be behind this. I am not going to take a side, I am just pointing out that people believe many different things and there are many different truths.

Why do so many people immediately blame Muslims but they never seem to think of the possibility of Zionist involvement. Zionists are known to cause terror, destruction, and mayhem....

Food for thought.

[Must_B_Free]

28. Zionism is merely a conspiracy theory

I bet they really don't exist, just like little green men from Mars.

[T Town Jake]

34. "Zionist involvement"?....why don't you at least be honest...

...and just say "Jew"?
"Food for thought" my ass - just rank anti-semitic implications.

[geek tragedy]

35. Those Muslim leaders have shit for brains.

They're part of the "blame Jews for everything bad that happens crowd."

Zionophobia is a mental illness.

[troublemaker]

29. This might mean a Russian invasion of Georgia before the election

Assuming the Russian story is bullshit, which seems safe, they are really going to the mat for this US vs. Al Qeada equivalency argument. And they have loudly signaled an interest in striking terrorists outside Russia.

Putin probably figures that Bush doesn't have the nerve before the US election to draw a nuanced position on global terror (by condemning Russia for rooting out terrorists in another country) and that Russia will get away with a Georgian mission as long as it's "temporary."

[Nordic]

30. Don't forget Poppy Bush's special little visit to Russia 1 year ago

I've always known Russia was involved in some mysterious way in 9/11. And certainly post 9/11. All of this stuff is the spiral around the eye of the storm, stuff that is very difficult to make sense of, but as usual I'm sure it involves the old adage "follow the money".

I'm pretty sure ALL of this is about peak oil.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/russia/article/0,2763,1042141,00.html

Putin greets Bush Sr to bolster US visit

Nick Paton Walsh in Moscow
Monday September 15, 2003
The Guardian

Vladimir Putin, the Russian president, laid on an especially warm welcome at his favourite holiday spot of Sochi yesterday for a man many Russians think is really driving American policy - George Bush Sr.

The former US president and father of the incumbent, George Bush Jr, is on a private trip to Russia, meeting senior officials and businessmen.

Yet President Putin altered his agenda to fly the former president to Sochi and personally greet Mr Bush and his wife, Barbara, on the airport asphalt. The three then left for the presidential residence of Bocharov Ruchei in a Kremlin limousine.

[banana republican]

31. where is the OIL ??????????? n/t

[alphafemale]

32. ...whhaa...wha...what?

[Tight_rope]

33. Well Well Well...Who are the guilty ones?...I wonder if the US has a part?

[Dover]

36. We did the same thing in Afghanistan, when Russia tried to go in there

I feel pretty certain that U.S. intelligence had a hand in the airline crashes and other recent terrorist acts that threaten to work against Putin. I've read that he is taking a lot of heat for his apparent failure to provide security.

I don't think anybody in Bushco is very pleased with what happened to Yukos Oil either, with whom they had strong ties (and maybe spies). That was, imo an attempt to grow a powerful company inside Russia that would eventually outweigh the Russian government in power and clout....much like the oil company in Venezuela. Yukos was certainly not friendly to Putin's leadership and was taking several covert actions to gain more power (such as buy up major media companies that were used to publicly criticize Putin). I haven't figured out how much the Russian economy has been hurt by the breaking up of Yukos, but it has seemed to temporarily hurt Russia too. What else could Putin do?

U.S. held Russia in check over "humanitarian" issues regarding Chechnya for a long time. And if I'm not mistaken, I think one of the major Russian pipeline routes goes through Chechnya.

On the other hand.......

These terrorist activities and the way things are unfolding in Russia seems to mirror 9/11 and its aftermath (such as power grabs by Bushco...the Bush Doctrine, Homeland Security, Increased military spending, etc.). Read the Russian headlines right now and you'll experience deja vu.
So it's also possible that Putin IS behind at least some of these terrorist activities in an effort to jumpstart his administrations power grab.

[allemand]

37. Islamists are internationalists

So the fact that the terrorists were people of various nationalities strongly suggests that Islamists were behind the attack.

[Professor_Moriarty]

38. Remember what happened in Peru with Alberto Fujimori. He

too pulled off a massive hoax about the Shining Path Guerillas and is now hiding in Japan evading a warrant for his arrest.

[Disturbed]

40. So many theories.

They make my mind reel. I know that what is happening is not a good thing for us Middle Class and below leftists or left leaning. The new world order went from the Cold War to Wars of Imperialism, mainly about oil, natural gas and pipe lines. The USA is a mess and the US Neo Fascists are going to make things a whole lot more messy, if they stay in power.

[DemExpat]

39. Dutch news interviewed a friend from childhood of one young Chechen woman

involved in this tragedy.

Lots of conflicting views here in the media about what has happened, by whom, and why....
Radical Muslim group in England says it is Islamic Jihad....Chechen asylum seekers say this could not have been Chechen rebels - that it was an inside Russian job........Russian news says one thing....another "expert" says it is up to the EU to solve this......
:wtf:

It really is a mess. And who knows what really is happening?


DemEx

[RegexReader]

44. Not what is being reported in Russian media

The people on the ground at Beslan are saying that eight terrorist killed inside the school by the Spetsnaz and three that were captured outside were Chechen. Two dead terrorists were Arabic. Seven terrorists cannot be identified due to disfigurement due to bomb vests and/or fire.

Also new out about the massacre. One of the terrorists was killed by the group's commander for refusing to go on with the mission after being told outside of Beslan what the target was. The two bombs that detonated prematurely that started the Spetsnaz attack were caused when two women terrorists refused to kill children when ordered and the commander detonated their locked on bomb vests as an example to the others.

http://www.lenta.ru/

RegexReader