Third time a Freeper says we are not a Democracy

[complain jane]

Can someone help me with a quick rebuttal to this? I don't have time today to go look up a lot and I want to respond quickly.

Context: I told him that if he supports the stuff outlined in the PNAC goals, fine, but that shouldn't we be acting as an informed Democracy rather than a nation misled into it?

His response is, we're not a Democracy.

Any help is *greatly* appreciated

[alittlelark]

1. We're not, we are a representative republic

[Warpy]

12. Call it a DEMOCRATIC representative republic

and you'll get it right. We elect our leaders democratically, even though we're still burdened with the anachronism known as the electoral college. The President is the only leader we don't elect directly, although we do elect our state electors to (or we're supposed to, as opposed to the "winner take all" perversion we now have).

Right wingers, fascists, whatever you'd like to call them, have always mistrusted democracy, and the biggest threat to any democracy has always come from the right, with no exceptions.

Tell your friend that, and tell him democracy is one thing you will not allow him or any other fascist to destroy.

[Frodo]

18. Is there such a thing as a NONdemocratic representative republic?

n/t

[rinsd]

23. No.....

But hey...we like having the Brand Name ;-)

[ProfessorGAC]

24. Is There?

Actually the terms are not interchangeable, and you should know that. You're parsing just to parse.

Democracy is a form of government. A republic is an organizational structure of gov't.

One defines the philosophical construct behind the gov't and the other describes its functional formatting.

And the answer is yes. The USSR had members of the Politboro assigned from each of the republics. The overall Soviet administration was therefore a republic of republics, run by a group which were not elected by, but still representative of each of the individual republics.

Each republic had regional and sectional commissars assigned to the republic's caucus. Very few of those were elected, so no democracy. But, each of those regional or sectional comissars was unique to the region of section. Therefore, representative of that region or section.

So, yes there is such a thing as a NONdemocratic representative republic. Only lasted about 70 years, so i'm not saying they work. Look into how the Somoza regime was structured as well. Pretty much the same thing, although not an exact match. But, they can exist.

The Professor

[Frodo]

28. Sorry Professor - wrong again.

Not that I usually agree with you on economics, but at least you would be sticking to your area of specialization. :-)

A Republic requires sovereign power to reside with the whole body of the people. The "We The People" from the Preamble. There can not be a "non representative" republic. Though one might argue how WELL (what with redistricting and such) OUR republic is "representative".

You're thinking of what was ONCE called a "republic" but is now called an "Aristocracy".


As for what WE are? I shy away from the labels because people always want to move from the label to what they THINK we SHOULD be. (e.g. "The Electoral College is a JOKE - I thought we lived in a DEMOCRACY!"). The fact is that WHATEVER we are (regardless of label) is enshrined in our founding documents. Arguments that try to remove us from the system by using a label (as above) are silly. ANY label that doesn't include "Constitutional" in it is inadequate to me.


I enjoy jousting with you again. Be well! :hi:

[ParanoidPat]

38. Constitution-based federal republic; strong democratic tradition.

United States, Constitution-based federal republic; strong democratic tradition. :)

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/gov_gov_typ

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html#govt

[Susang]

45. Actually, I believe the prof was referring to the USSR

You might recall them, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics? It can hardly can be confused with an "aristocracy". Perhaps you could explain that connection?

[Frodo]

48. lol. And Korea uses the word "Republic" too. That doesn't make it so.

As does China. Also not really a republic.


But yes, I was referring to the Professor's definition of a republic, not so much the characterization of the soviets.

Truthfully though, an aristocracy refers to a government by a privileged few - or a ruling class. Or some say a ruling class composed of "the best citizens".

That fits soviet Russia just fine.

[northzax]

50. actually, that's not quite right either

an aristocracy implies that the power is hereditary, the Soviet Union was an Oligarchy (rule by the few) since the power was not inherited. And yes, the USSR was, in fact, a Republic. True, it was a one-party republic, but a republic none the less.

[Frodo]

54. Sorry, no.

Though they most often WERE hereditary, an aristocracy does not HAVE to be a hereditary rule. I think the original is from Greek and means "by the best".

A bit like the difference between "nobility" and "gentry" in some histories.

[northzax]

64. ok, since we're splitting hairs

what would be the difference, in your opinion, between an 'aristocracy' and an 'oligarchy'? according to my dictionary (which I confess is only a Webster's, not the OED) the first definition of 'aristocracy' is: A hereditary ruling class; nobility. While it is technically correct to use the second definition, A form a government, in which the supreme power is vested in the principal persons of a state, or in a privileged order; an oligarchy. it's worth noting that even the dictionary simply cites oligarchy as a synonym for this use.

[Susang]

66. It actually means "rule of the best born"

And implies heredity.

[Susang]

65. I disagree with your definition of aristocracy

Most definitions I am aware of refer to it as a heriditary ruling class, one that relies on a bloodline for succession, i.e. "royalty". This would be more in line with the Tsars than Soviet Russia.

[ProfessorGAC]

67. Forget It, Susang

Frodo will define the terms however necessary to refuse to admit error. Happens all the time, 'round these parts.
The Professor

[Susang]

68. That's okay

I still enjoyed myself and even learned a couple things in the process! :-) It helps that I work with someone who's from Greece and is willing to explain the nuance of her fine language whenever I ask a stupid question like "what does "aristokratia" mean?". ;-)

[stavka]

61. Rome for instance....the Soviet Union would be another

Some of the Roman tribes votes counted more....

In the case of the Soviet Union, there was some "democratic" representation among local autocrats and magnates at many levels...much like the national "commission" in American organized crime.

So to be technically true, it is possible.

[DebJ]

2. Under Bush, we aren't a democracy. We are a theocracy...

apologies to TRUE Christians....

[Fenris]

3. We are a republic.

It's sort of a gray area. We aren't a direct democracy technically.

[trotsky]

4. Democratic Republic

We democratically elect representatives who then vote on laws for us. In a true democracy, every law would be put up for public referendum.

[Eloriel]

16. Bingo. And the REASON we're not set up as a "true" democracy

is that our Founders were well aware of the "tyrrany of the majority." They thought it essential to allow the minority voice in any given question or debate to have an opportunity to be heard and even win. Many important forward steps in our "republic" would never have happened with a true democracy where majority sentiment always wins: abolition, women's suffrage, civil rights, etc.

[DrWeird]

5. They sure did whine...

when Clinton won by plurality.

[complain jane]

7. So we're

bringing "Democracy" to a nation when we're not a Democracy in the first place?

I'm so confused.

Either way, the Freeper seems to think that what the President does with the country is basically none of our business.

:argh:

[yardwork]

9. The freeper is wrong.

We are a republic, and in a republic, the leaders are elected by the people. Bush is our employee, and evaluating his performance is our job as citizens.

It sounds like the freeper would prefer to live in a monarchy, which is what they have in Saudi Arabia and what the Bush dynasty is attempting to impose on the United States. Tell the freeper to kiss your ass and move to Saudi Arabia.

[niyad]

6. technically a republic, but, since december '02, have been a fascist state

thank you, republican appointed supreme court members

[otohara]

8. When The GOP Rules The WH, Congress, Senate, Supremos

Governorships....we are not a democracy

[Inland]

10. Like being a representative democracy or republic justifies lies to us

Pubbies love it when Bush lies. They figure that they are in on the scam--that Bush only says things to get the voters off his back so he can return to the business of doing what's best for the country and getting christ back in charge. Whatever you call our system, its isn't conducive to secrecy and lies.


Because we find out that Bush lies most of all to cover up for himself and his failures. He lies because its convenient. He lies to make us do things we would never do if we knew the truth. He lies to give goodies to the rich and death to the reserves.

And most of all, he lies to keep us from knowing what an enormous, failed, craven liar he is.

Have your freeper bud explain how lying and secrecy by Bush are good for anything or anybody but himself.

[tom_paine]

11. Ignores everything that happened since Jacksonian Democracy was introduced

We are a Denocratic Republic.

Jacksonian Democracy (the first moves towards democracy)

http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/rcah/html/ah_046700_jacksoniande.htm

The 17th Amendment of the Constitution allowing for direct election of Senators

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment17/

Like most Busheviks, he is easily lied to because he is unable to critically think nor does he have historical knowledge not fed dircetly to him by THE PARTY.

This means that it is EASY for someone like him to say something which utterly disregards 225 years of Old American History because he doesn't acknowdledge those things, only what THE PARTY has told him through AM Talk Radio or one of the many other Bushevik Pravda Outlets.

Which means, even if you point out everything that has happened since 1828, of which there is much more than I have linked to, it won;t be likely to make an impression on him nor change his "mind" even though the facts are prettyt clear cut.

Like trying to use rewason to convince a Nazi that the Jews aren;t evil.

It can't be done.

But here are some tools for you to try, if you wish.

[yellowcanine]

13. I believe this particular meme dates to the John Birch Society - just tell

him that we are a representative democracy - A republic is a democracy. This is a favorite of Christian Identity and Posse Comitas types as well.

[salvorhardin]

35. Posse Comitas?

I'm not familiar with that term. Can you help? Thanks.

[northzax]

51. Posse Comitatus

refers to an 1878 law banning the Federal Military from participating in domestic law enforcement. Basically, it forbids a military-police state.

[salvorhardin]

57. Thanks

The information is appreciated.

[K-W]

52. Its a far right facist group.

as far as I know

[NoPasaran]

53. Posse Comitatus was a faction in the right wing militia movement

A decade or two ago. I think most of those turdballs are dead now after drinking antifreeze when they ran short of moonshine.

[salvorhardin]

58. Ah. Thanks.

With the little nugget of information above I see how they derive their beliefs.

[ParanoidPat]

14. Then why is Bush* trying so hard to force Democracy on everyone else?

:shrug: :evilgrin:

[Zynx]

15. We're a Democratic Republic.

We are not a pure Democracy, and Republic is a very broad term that incorporates virtually every type of government out there.

[whistle]

17. First, a definition of democracy....

...Literally, the term means power of the people (combining the Greek words demos, meaning "the people," and kratien, meaning "to rule"). It is usually used to describe a political system where the legitimacy of exercising power stems from the consent of the people. Accordingly, a democratic polity is often identified by the existence of constitutional government, where the power of the leaders is checked and restrained; representative institutions based on free elections, which provide a procedural framework for the delegation of power by the people; competitive parties, in which the ruling majority respects and guarantees the rights of minrities; and civil liberties, such as freedoms of speech, press, association, and religion.

www.indiana.edu/~ipe/glossry.html

Now, what it says about a republic...

...Definitions of republic on the Web:

a political system in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who can elect people to represent them
www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn


a form of government whose head of state is not a monarch; "the head of state in a republic is usually a president"
www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn


A state or nation in which the supreme power rests in all the citizens entitled to vote. This power is exercised by representatives elected, directly or indirectly, by them and responsible to them.
bensguide.gpo.gov/6-8/glossary.html


A state or nation in which the supreme power rests in all the citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by representatives elected, directly or indirectly, by them and responsible to them.
www.lksd.org/kongiganak/kongiganak/ContinuousEdCarnagie/Carnagie/Government/GovtGlossary.htm


A form of government in which the head of state is usually elected by the citizens. (Not to be confused with "democracy" because many republics, past and present, have heads of state who came into power by military force, or were elected by a small minority of the population.)
www.saburchill.com/history/hist003.html


A form of government in which there is an elected president rather than a king.
pittsford.monroe.edu/jefferson/calfieri/government/Glossary.html


A variation of the Federal style.
www.furniturequest.com/Furniture_R.htm


A state or nation in which the supreme power rests in all the citizens entitled to vote. Â This power is exercised by representatives elected, directly or indirectly, by them and responsible to them.
hrsbstaff.ednet.ns.ca/waymac/Sociology/A%20Term%202/Simulation%20on%20Governments/glossary_of_american_terms.htm

I think that the key difference has to do with citizens who are enfranchised (right to vote) and citizens who are dis-enfranchised (have no right to vote). This may well explain the actions by the neo-cons and this administration to take more and more rights away from Americans including the right to vote. If you aren't for me, you are against me, so thus I'm not going to let you vote, or let your vote count.

[deutsey]

19. Democracy is the means by which we select reps in our Republic

Theoretically, anyway. This system is supposed to ensure that the will of average citizens is represented in the national government.

In America, our democracy has gone from being limited to white, male, property owners to include all eligible citizens of all races, genders, economic status. This franchise was not handed over willing by the powers that be and there was a lot of agitation and even bloodshed (just think of the civil rights movement) to make sure that all of us could participate in our form of representative government. Without real democracy our Republic is just like the "Republics" in the former Soviet Union or "Banana Republics" down south.

Why freepers can't get that through their thick little heads is beyond me.

So we are a Republic and democracy is supposed to be the lifeblood of our represenative form of government. This is why I'm so outraged over what happened in Florida 2000 and how corporate interests have pretty much rendered our votes irrelevant.

[democratreformed]

20. Well, we certainly weren't set up as a dictatorship.

Isn't that what it is when the ruler refuses to listen to the people? When he says he owes no explanation for any action he takes? When he makes all decision based on what HE chooses?

[rinsd]

21. We are a Representative Republic which is a form of Democracy

While all Representative Republics are Democracies, not all Democracies are Representative Republics.

[Room101]

22. We are not a Democracy we have a constitutional Republic

The word Democracy is never mentioned in the Constitution. The founding fathers were scared of both a Tyranny and a Democracy.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[0rganism]

30. quite wrong. The USA is an indirect democracy

which is a type of democracy.

Read up: http://home.att.net/~Resurgence/L-democracy.htm

[mitchum]

25. Even a blind pig...

can find an acorn sometimes. The freeper is right

[0rganism]

29. Nope, the freeper is wrong as usual

representative democracy is a form of democracy

Read up: http://home.att.net/~Resurgence/L-democracy.htm

[mitchum]

32. Yes, but unfortunately we have a representative democracy in name only

[0rganism]

33. Cynicism is fine, just don't let it stop you from voting

After another 4 years of bush, I might be agreeing with you.

[mitchum]

37. Don't worry, I will be voting (and have been regitering others)

Consider me an idealistic cynic :)

[0rganism]

27. We have indirect democracy, which is a type of democracy

Every branch of the Federal gov't is either elected by a body of constitutents or appointed by someone who is so elected. All our laws are formed by people who were elected, or by the people themselves. They are interpreted by people elected or appointed by elected officials to our various courts, which carry out common law.

It's called "democracy", and the republicans need to get over their bad selves.

cf http://home.att.net/~Resurgence/L-democracy.htm

[Media_Lies_Daily]

31. Since the Coup of December 2000, we have become a dictatorship.

[Lex]

34. "I thought we were an autonomous collective."

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Cat Atomic]

36. Ask him if he thinks China is a republic. Or the old USSR.

Sticking feathers up your ass does not make you a chicken. Calling yourself a "republic" does not make you a republic.

The US is a democratic republic in practice, and that's all that matters.

[Selwynn]

39. We **ARE** A DEMOCRACY - A ***REPRESENTATIVE*** DEMOCRACY

God...

There are TWO kinds of govermental democracies.

1) direct democracy which works well of your have a county of 1,000 people.

2) representative democracy which works when you have a country of hundreds of millions of people.

They're BOTH DEMOCRACIES.

[Selwynn]

40. Seriously - give him the answer inside my post above..

..there's really no way to argue around that.

[ParanoidPat]

41. Is it a CANDY mint or is it a BREATH mint?

LOL! :evilgrin: Can't we be BOTH?

[Selwynn]

43. I don't see how

Direct democracy is the opposite idea - you *don't* elect representatives to make the decisions, you the citizen directly cast a vote on every decision. That a little hard to do for a country if hundreds of millions...

[Darranar]

42. We're not...

unlike this particular freeper however, I think that's a bad thing.

[Union Thug]

44. He's right - under bush, its a

theocratic monarchy.

[donkeyotay]

46. I hope you're not sorry you asked, but we are a democracy

I wouldn't be surprised if this "we're a republic" meme can be traced back to the Birchers. They are splitting hairs with the definition since a republic is defined as having representatives selected by voting citizens, something most of us refer to as democracy. The founders dealt with worries about mob rule by having a constitution and checks and balances. They never intended anything other than a democratic process.

I question why the rightwing is so interested in discrediting the word "democracy," like they did the word "liberal."

What have they got against democracy? What is their point? Are they prepping us to accept George Bush IV as our duly appointed representative?

[K-W]

56. Im sorry, but you are just wrong.

A democracy is when the population makes policy.

I dont care if most of you refer to it as a democracy, that is an error, and letting the definition of the word democracy slip means everyone gets confused.

The founding fathers did NOT mean to establish a democracy. Had they, we would have had a democracy. The founding fathers studied democracy and republics and other governments in the past and conciously chose a constitutional republic. The soveriegnty lies with the state, the policy lies in a government of elected officials. And the constitution is the highest law of the land.

The original setup of the federal government was not based on popular elections. It was designed to be an umbrella organization for state governments. State governments, not the people would determine who was in the federal government.

At no point were we ever supposed to be anything resembling a democracy. We have moved the sovreignty to the people and not to the state, which is good, but we would need to make many more changes before we reached a point where you could say that policy power was in the people's hands.

[progactivist]

47. We are a democratic republic, and how does that excuse lies?

Our leaders still have to rule with the consent of the governed. If they lie to us we can't give true consent.

[AntiFascist]

49. The problem is....

in a time of war many neoconservatives feel that they know what is best for the country (really what is best for their party) and that any opinion counter to their's needs to be squelched. In wartime, Nixon's watergate activities would have been acceptable, from their point of view. Manipulating the media, suppressing voters, getting favors from the Saudi monarchy....these are all the tip of the iceberg.

[catbert836]

55. That's bull

we are a democracy. his only arguing point is the electoral college, whic should have been done away with in 1876.
<img border="0" src="images/Kerry-John_Lennon.jpg" width="400" height="312">

[proud patriot]

59. We are a Democratic Republic

if we were a true democracy we would be making policy
through our votes , but instead we vote for the people
to make policy.

the fact that we vote makes us a Democracy
the fact that we vote for people to make the
descisions makes us a republic .

so we are a democratic republic IMO

[Jack Rabbit]

60. America is a republic, not a democracy

That's probably true, but something we shall strive to remedy.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

62. Defining feature of a republic: no monarchy. Period.

That's why France and Germany and Mexico and North Korea and Indonesia and Nigeria are republics and Britain and Sweden and Japan and Belgium aren't. However, all the non-republics that I have mentioned are representative democracies.

One of the political questions in Australia is whether to become a republic (they're already a parliamentary democracy), since Queen Elizabeth is their official head of state, as she is for many British Commonwealth countries.

Explain that to your freeper friend slowly and using small words. If necessary, refer him to Webster's Unabridged Dictionary, which says much the same thing.

[oddtext]

63. cite the constitution:

Preamble:
We the PEOPLE of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the PEOPLE.

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the PEOPLE.

so, citizens of this "republic", do indeed have democratic powers enshrined in this nation's founding document. this "republic" (to the exclusion of all other terms) is therefore founded on democratic principles. FU freep-bag.