Wellstone Was Murdered"American Assassination," two professors explain how

[seemslikeadream]

Wellstone Was Murdered
In "American Assassination," two professors explain how.



Senator Paul Wellstone was, ''the first 1960s radical elected to the U.S. Senate.'' In Senate Race 2002, the White House made defeating Wellstone priority #1. Karl Rove hand-picked arch Republican Norm Coleman to run against him. Despite massive funding, Coleman was trailing the popular Wellstone two weeks before election day.

Then, tragedy struck. On the morning of October 25th, 2002, Wellstone was killed after a mysterious communication cut-out and crash of his small aircraft. He died alongside his wife Sheila, their daughter Marcia, three staff members, and two pilots, while trying to land at Minnesota’s Eveleth airfield. CNN’s Wolf Blitzer insisted to his reporter at the scene that foul weather was the lethal factor in the crash, despite the statements to the contrary from the CNN correspondent. To this day, the public tends to blame the weather.

Ph.D. Professors James Fetzer and Don "Four Arrows" Jacobs present the harrowing truth. The weather didn’t bring down Senator Wellstone. Nor were the two pilots incompetent, as the ridiculous report of the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) eventually claimed.
more
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/WO0409/S00143.htm

[Cha]

1. I wonder how they messed with the plane

if that's what happened?

I wouldn't put it past them ..that's how much I disrespect them.

[seventhson]

15. EMP Weapon - simple and consistent with the facts.

I have said that was the case from day one.

The 9-11 Pennsylvania crash was also probably EMP too. There were similar reports of EMP like power problems in the area of that crash and the technology is top secret so would NOT be publicly revealed.

But look at the archives. I have said this for a long time.

Carnahan too, probably and Numerous others. Very clean "icicle" attack (evidence melts away or is invisible)


Here is from the link on the book:

Since becoming active in this issue, normal citizens contacted Professor Fetzer and related strange electronic communications interference in the area at the time of the crash. The automatic garage doors in entire neighborhoods mysteriously opened. Cell phones experienced never-before-heard kinds of static. These auditory patterns eerily match those created by "electro-magnetic pulse" (EMP) weapons recently developed by the Pentagon to jam the computer-assisted controls of an enemy aircraft. Radar images from the time of the crashes of both Senators Carnahan and Wellstone match the profile for EMP fingerprints. EMPs not only jam an airplane’s electronics, they disable the radio communication of the plane.

In the wake of the crash, 69% of Minnesoteans blamed "A GOP Conspiracy" for Wellstone’s death. In appendices to American Assassination, Wellstone’s courageous stands against the rich and powerful continue to inspire us. Our epilogue presents highlights from Wellstone’s agenda, and his speech "On Iraq." His opposition to the oligarchy helps the reader understand why Wellstone was assassinated. When the reader meets Wellstone in his own words, his vision is kept alive and lives on in each of us, despite the desires of the plutocrats.

[Minstrel Boy]

20. you're right, seventhson

To too many, EMP sounds like science fiction. There's nothing fictional about it. And the denial with which it's met is about as informed as "what I can't see can't hurt me."

[seventhson]

21. Instead of the RNC - I watched "The Day After" nuke movie

Jason Robards starred.

EMP from the blast knocks out all the power so the main characters suddenly are without cars and motorcyles or electricity in the hospital.

Oceans Eleven also uses the effects as a plot device to rob a casino.

Tarteted EMP "lasers" can target planes and cut their power so they "stall" and fall from the sky.

Lots of folks discount this but they are idiots who deny the evidence.

The evidence is VERY strong.

[Minstrel Boy]

23. I think of that film often

though I haven't seen it since it was originally broadcast.

The closing image of Robards fighting another dying man over his rubble, and then embracing in tears, is haunting.

Time's running out to change America's, and the world's, destiny. And a good part of the change begins with Americans admitting the murderous corruption of their leaders.

[seventhson]

30. The truly SCARY thing is they are killing our own soldiers with DU

and Wellstone was trying to STOP that

www.radiation.org has LOTS of info on the dangers we face that Wellstone would have tried to stop if he wasn't murdered by the BFEE.

[bobbieinok]

33. I thought star was George C Scott.....horrific TV movie

[Elginoid]

35. nope...it was jason robards.

a couple friends came over, and i had a very bright red mars-type(rotating) light from an airport...we turned off all of the lights in my basement bedroom(except the tv, of course) and kept the mars light(and the bong) going...it really enhanced the experience.

[tblue37]

36. I actually live

in the town where they filmed The Day After. I used to get double takes from people when they found out where I live, but hardly anyone now seems to remember the movie at all.

[truth2power]

38. A question, seventhson...

There's no doubt in my mind that Wellstone was murdered, and the EMP weapon makes sense.

But something I don't understand. You said planes stall and fall from the sky. I've been a passenger in small planes that were purposely stalled by pulling the nose up and slowing the speed. What happens is that the nose drops and once the plane is level you can regain control and glide quite a long way, looking for a place to land (assuming the engine can't be restarted). Of course you have to have some altitude to accomplish this.

Was that the problem with Wellstone's plane...not enough altitude?

[seventhson]

54. According to the report the plane was going too slow to stay aloft

it veered off and crashed

the problem is that with ZERO power - steering and instruments would not work properly. Neither would radio or transponder signals.

Have you ever been in a plane with a TOTAL electriral failure? NOTHING on?

I am not an expert on this but the plane crashed after a stall when it had slowed so much it could no longer fly.

Could it glide? I do not know. Maybe they did the best they could. The fire was a bit mysterious too.

All I know is that is the ONLY explanation that makes sense.

[truth2power]

244. I don't know why I'm obsessing over this.

Not that I don't agree with you that he was murdered. I believe you're right.

I've been trying for two days to get hold of a friend who is an aviation expert. No luck so far.

Lacking any expertise I'm floundering here. No, I've never been in a plane with total electrical failure (thankfully). Just with someone taking flying lessons where purposely creating a stall is part of the training.

Guess my question is, is the King Air A-10 a fly by wire? In which case a total electrical failure would be curtains. If the control surfaces are controlled by cables, then it might be a different story.

As far as gliding, all planes will glide as you probably know. Some farther than others, of course. The little single engine jobs have about a 15:1 glide ratio IIRC. So if you're at 5000 ft. you can glide about 15 miles - gives you a chance to set it down somewhere.

I realize this is a moot point in terms of the Wellstone crash. Not enough altitude, obviously. I'm just trying to put the pieces together.

What breaks my heart is that I just know he was murdered, but I also think we'll never prove it. Cheney, that sick POS, gets away again.

[DBoon]

159. Google "HERF gun"

from : http://www.itglossary.net/herf.html

HERF stands for high energy radio frequency. A HERF gun is used to disrupt digital equipment such as computers by blasting them with HERF emissions.

A herf gun will typicaly cost around $150 to make, it is also generaly the size of the a backpack that can put out an impressive 16 megawatt pulse.

A HERF blast is a very high type of electromagnetic radiation that can do a considerable amount of damage to a PC. It can completely erase a hard disk, crash the PC and could even fuse the silicon barriers on the chips in the computer rendering it useless. Most electricl appliances are at risk to this type of attack, it is even possable to stall a car at a set of traffic ligths with a herf gun.

Also look under "information warfare", such as http://www2.norwich.edu/mkabay/overviews/infowar_1995.htm

I've heard the federal contractor SAIC has developed such a weapon for halting speeding automobiles. Can't find a source, though.

[Digit]

2. This is chilling

It always did appear "convenient" for this disaster to happen to someone so vocal against the opposition.

[seventhson]

98. Chilling and horrible - the Bush-Cheney thugs are very much like Hitler's

thugs: knocking off the opposition and consolidating their power.

The Senate became a Republican majority and one of the chief opponents of the Bush agenda was destroyed along with his wife and daughter.

Reprehensible.

Those posting here at DU were on this story from day one and the EMP possibility (or, rather, likelihood) has been kicked around from day one.

No one has ever been able to plausibly rebut this possibility and since it remains the MOST likely scenario under all the cirucmstances - it is all the more frightening to think that this election may see, once again, the restoration of his killers to their executive and military offices.

[goforit]

3. Ruthless!!!.........As bad as the Chetyna massacre!!!!

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

4. Nope.

That these guys don't know squat about aviation is painfully obvious. It's tempting to think Wellstone was murdered, but he wasn't. This was a sad, stupid accident caused by pilot error. If, while you are trying to locate the airport in marginal visibility, you stop watching your airspeed and allow your King Air to slow to 80 knots on final approach, you will stall, crash and die.

[Sheldon Rowan]

7. Ocelot, nope again

There's not enough in the article for you to be able to say that. Unless you've read the book, you're talking out of your butt. If you've read the book, give more details.

[Minstrel Boy]

8. Did you read this:

"The NTSB's own simulations, which replicated properties like those of King Air A-100s under similar conditions, were unable to bring the plane down—even when conducted under abnormally slow speeds."

[stickdog]

78. Why wouldn't you use autopilot to help locate in marginal visibility?

The King Air A-100 is fully capable of a coupled approach, and the pilot is known to have preferred these approaches.

And, even if they didn't do a coupled approach, how did two pilots manage to ignore both the airspeed AND the CDI needle for well over a full minute?

[TrogL]

200. You can't do coupled approach on a non-ILS strip

Please document your assertion that the pilot preferred these approaches. They are rarely used.

[stickdog]

207. Really? So there's no such thing as a non-precision coupled approach?

That will be news to millions of pilots, TrogL:

http://stoenworks.com/Tutorials/Flying%20the%20coupled.html

As for documenting that Conroy prefered coupled approaches, see the NTSB interview document.

It used to be linked on www.startribune.com, but I can't currently locate it.

[Cheswick2.0]

127. nope

you are assuming that the information given by the government about air speed etc... are accurate.

[fearnobush]

5. Was Paul Wellstone Murdered?

<http://www.alternet.org/story/14399/>

Posted on Fri, Nov. 21, 2003
Wellstone assassination claim prompts lawsuit

NEWS TRIBUNE
<http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/duluthtribune/7312959.htm>

[The Zanti Regent]

242. Yes he was murdered, just like Mel Carnahan!

The Bush Family DOES get away with murder. Ask Pickles!

[Minstrel Boy]

6. This I didn't know:

Others reported odd cell-phone and garage-door phenomena that were taking place about the same time the plane lost both communications and control.

The NTSB's own simulations, which replicated properties like those of King Air A-100s under similar conditions, were unable to bring the plane down—even when conducted under abnormally slow speeds!

One of the members who actually signed the report, Richard Healing, admitted that they really had no idea what had caused the plane to crash.

The FBI team's seemingly impossible early arrival upon the crash scene hours before the NTSB always bothered me. And the pattern of destruction to the aircraft: the fuselage was consumed by an intense long-burning fire which gave off, according to eyewitnesses, an unusual light-blue smoke, but the fuel-bearing wings were virtually intact.

But it's just koo-koo ga-ga KWAZY to think this was anything but another tragedy for America's accident-prone liberal leadership. As you'll be promptly informed shortly by respectable DUers who are embarrassed by the faintest suggestion of assassination.

Thanks seems :hi: I'm looking forward to it.

[seemslikeadream]

9. Memory lane MB, almost a year ago

The Paul Wellstone crash was.....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=561809

Senator Paul Wellstone and Mozambique's President Samora Machel
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2167138

:hi:

[seemslikeadream]

11. Plane Crashes, WR Grace, Deadly Asbestos, WTC Collapse & Wellstone

JANUARY 03 From the archieves

Plane Crashes, WR Grace, Deadly Asbestos, WTC Collapse & Wellstone

stickdog (1116 posts) Jan-16-03, 08:21 PM (ET)
Plane Crashes, WR Grace, Deadly Asbestos, WTC Collapse & Wellstone
LAST EDITED ON Jan-16-03 AT 08:30 PM (ET) In the recent NC plane crash, 3 WR Grace employees were killed: Joseph Spiak, general manager of specialty vermiculite (including the highly toxic asbestos containing Zonolite), Paul Stidham, director of environmental health and safety, and Richard Lyons, global health and safety manager. From: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/080400-02.htm Although Halliburton is an enormous operation with more than 100,000 employees in 120 countries, it is a relatively small player when it comes to asbestos litigation, at least when compared with W.R. Grace & Co., GAF and the Johns Manville Corp. Nevertheless, Halliburton has spent $99 million to settle or dispose of 129,650 asbestos suits, according to company records. From: http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2001/9/12/192330/380 WR Grace Asbestos containing insulation was used at the World Trade Center (WTC). James Cintani stated that Grace Vermiculite did not contain asbestos. Unfortunately this was not true this material was 2-5 percent asbestos. 100,000 80 pound bags of this vermiculite was used in the WTC. In addition 9,150 pounds of MonoKote 3 was used at the WTC. Monokote 3 was about 20 percent asbestos. Therefore in total about 201,183 pounds of pure asbestos fiber from Grace was used in the WTC. From: http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/News/ADD5A0C8A02AD67B86256C9C006CC522 White House budget office thwarts EPA warning on asbestos-laced insulation BY ANDREW SCHNEIDEROf the Post-Dispatch The Environmental Protection Agency was on the verge of warning millions of Americans that their attics and walls might contain asbestos-contaminated insulation. But, at the last minute, the White House intervened, and the warning has never been issued. The announcement to warn the public was expected in April. It was to accompany a declaration by the EPA of a public health emergency in Libby, Mont. In that town near the Canadian border, ore from a vermiculite mine was contaminated with an extremely lethal asbestos fiber called tremolite that has killed or sickened thousands of miners and their families. Ore from the Libby mine was shipped across the nation and around the world, ending up in insulation called Zonolite that was used in millions of homes, businesses and schools across America. Zonolite insulation was sold throughout North America from the 1940s through the 1990s. Almost all of the vermiculite used in the insulation came from the Libby mine, last owned by W.R. Grace & Co. Interviews and documents show that just days before the EPA was set to make the declaration, the plan was thwarted by the White House Office of Management and Budget, which had been told of the proposal months earlier. Former EPA administrator William Ruckelshaus, who worked for Presidents Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan, called the decision not to notify homeowners of the dangers posed by Zonolite insulation "the wrong thing to do." "When the government comes across this kind of information and doesn't tell people about it, I just think it's wrong, unconscionable, not to do that," he said. " What right does the government have to conceal these dangers? It just doesn't make sense." The question about what to do about Zonolite insulation was not the only asbestos-related issue in which the White House intervened. In January, in an internal EPA report on problems with the agency's much-criticized response to the terrorist attacks in New York City, a section on "lessons learned" said there was a need to release public health and emergency information without having it reviewed and delayed by the White House." The EPA's files are filled with studies documenting the toxicity of tremolite, how even minor disruptions of the material by moving boxes, sweeping the floor or doing repairs in attics can generate asbestos fibers. Most of those who have studied the needle-sharp tremolite fibers in the Libby ore consider them far more dangerous than other asbestos fibers. In October, the EPA team leading the cleanup of lower Manhattan after the attacks of Sept. 11 went to Libby to meet with Peronard and his crew. The EPA had reversed an early decision and announced that it would be cleaning asbestos from city apartments. (NOTE: THIS STUFF WAS IN THE WTC TOWERS!!!) Peronard told the visitors from New York just how dangerous tremolite is. He talked about the hands-on research in Libby of Dr. Alan Whitehouse, a pulmonologist who had worked for NASA and the Air Force on earlier projects before moving to Spokane, Wash. "Whitehouse's research on the people here gave us our first solid lead of how bad this tremolite is," Peronard said. Whitehouse has not only treated 500 people from Libby who are sick and dying from exposure to tremolite. The chest specialist also has almost 300 patients from Washington shipyards and the Hanford, Wash., nuclear facility who are suffering health effects from exposure to the more prevalent chrysotile asbestos. Comparing the two groups, Whitehouse has demonstrated that the tremolite from Libby is 10 times as carcinogenic as chrysotile and probably 100 times more likely to produce mesothelioma than chrysotile. (Please read. There's much, much more here.) From: http://www.msnbc.com/local/pisea/102011.asp?cp1=1 Murray promises to renew push for asbestos warnings By ROBERT MCCLURE SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER Dec. 30 - After revelations that the Bush administration squelched public health warnings about a widely used form of insulation that contains cancer-causing asbestos, Sen. Patty Murray vowed yesterday to renew her fight for a public education campaign. Murray, D-Wash., said she will demand an explanation this week for why warnings planned last spring by the Environmental Protection Agency were called off at the last minute by high-ranking Bush administration officials. Internal EPA documents show that about 15 million to 35 million of the nation's approximately 105 million households contain a brand of insulation known as Zonolite. Mined for decades in Libby, Mont., Zonolite contains a particularly lethal form of asbestos known as tremolite. "I just find it astounding that when this kind of information is available that can save people's lives, that this administration has decided to keep that secret and not let people know," Murray said. "Here's a health risk we can do something about." Murray's co-sponsor, Sen. Paul Wellstone, D-Minn., died in October in a plane crash. W.R. Grace says the insulation is safe, and wrote a letter to the EPA in April insisting that no health warnings are necessary. In addition to its use in insulation, the brownish-pink vermiculite was contained in garden products, cement mixtures and many other products. One of those products was as fireproofing in ceiling tiles used widely in schools and federal office buildings. Helping manufacture those tiles as a side job while in college likely gave Brian Harvey of Marysville mesothelioma, a disease caused only by exposure to asbestos. Harvey criticized the Bush administration's decision to pull the public health warning. "I have a real problem with that," Harvey said. "That I consider unforgivable." "At the top levels of the Bush administration, they are maintaining this cloak of secrecy that I can't imagine the people who I've worked with at the EPA are very happy about," Murray said. "Hopefully, the public will start crying out for Congress and the administration to do something about this." (more)

party_line (2235 posts) Jan-16-03, 08:50 PM (ET)
1. All that asbestos was turned to ash?
It might be interesting to know what becomes of the properties of asbestos when it is incinerated.
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stickdog (1116 posts) Jan-16-03, 08:55 PM (ET) Reply to post #1
2. It wasn't all turned to ash.
Most was pulverized into dust, and that's its most lethal form, by far.
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party_line (2235 posts) Jan-16-03, 09:03 PM (ET) Reply to post #2
4. Hasn't the EPA been doing tests?
Aren't several agencies doing air quality tests? This would show up, don't you think? With so much of it, you would think that the levels would be detectable.
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stickdog (1116 posts) Jan-16-03, 09:19 PM (ET) Reply to post #4
6. Read The Article.
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/News/ADD5A0C8A02AD67B86256C9C006CC522 The question about what to do about Zonolite insulation was not the only asbestos-related issue in which the White House intervened. In January, in an internal EPA report on problems with the agency's much-criticized response to the terrorist attacks in New York City, a section on "lessons learned" said there was a need to release public health and emergency information without having it reviewed and delayed by the White House. "We cannot delay releasing important public health information," said the report. "The political consequences of delaying information are greater than the benefit of centralized information management." It was the White House budget office's Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs that derailed the Libby declaration. The regulatory affairs office is headed by John Graham, who formerly ran the Harvard Center for Risk Analysis. His appointment last year was denounced by environmental, health and public advocacy groups, who claimed his ties to industry were too strong. Graham passes judgment over all major national health, safety and environmental standards. Thirty physicians, 10 of them from Harvard, according to The Washington Post, wrote the committee asking that Graham not be confirmed because of "a persistent pattern of conflict of interest, of obscuring and minimizing dangers to human health with questionable cost-benefit analyses, and of hostility to governmental regulation in general." FAA Head Whitman, Horinko and some members of their top staff were said to have been outraged at the White House intervention. "It was like a gut shot," said one of those senior staffers involved in the decision. "It wasn't that they ordered us not to make the declaration, they just really, really strongly suggested against it. Really strongly. There was no choice left." She and other staff members said Whitman was personally interested in Libby and the national problems spawned by its asbestos-tainted ore. The EPA's inspector general had reported that the agency hadn't taken action more than two decades earlier when it had proof that the people of Libby and those using asbestos-tainted Zonolite products were in danger. Whitman went to Libby in early September 2001 and promised the people it would never happen again. "We want everyone who comes in contact with vermiculite from homeowners to handymen to have the information to protect themselves and their families," Whitman promised. A government analysis of shipping records from W.R. Grace show that at least 15.6 billion pounds of vermiculite ore was shipped from Libby to 750 plants and factories throughout North America. In a confidential memo dated March 28, an EPA official said the declaration was tentatively set for April 5. But the declaration never came. Instead, Superfund boss Horinko on May 9 quietly ordered that asbestos be removed from contaminated homes in Libby. There was no national warning of potential dangers from Zonolite. And there was no promise of long-term medical care for Libby's ill and dying. The EPA's files are filled with studies documenting the toxicity of tremolite, how even minor disruptions of the material by moving boxes, sweeping the floor or doing repairs in attics can generate asbestos fibers. Most of those who have studied the needle-sharp tremolite fibers in the Libby ore consider them far more dangerous than other asbestos fibers. In October, the EPA team leading the cleanup of lower Manhattan after the attacks of Sept. 11 went to Libby to meet with Peronard and his crew. The EPA had reversed an early decision and announced that it would be cleaning asbestos from city apartments. Peronard told the visitors from New York just how dangerous tremolite is. He talked about the hands-on research in Libby of Dr. Alan Whitehouse, a pulmonologist who had worked for NASA and the Air Force on earlier projects before moving to Spokane, Wash. "Whitehouse's research on the people here gave us our first solid lead of how bad this tremolite is," Peronard said. Whitehouse has not only treated 500 people from Libby who are sick and dying from exposure to tremolite. The chest specialist also has almost 300 patients from Washington shipyards and the Hanford, Wash., nuclear facility who are suffering health effects from exposure to the more prevalent chrysotile asbestos. Comparing the two groups, Whitehouse has demonstrated that the tremolite from Libby is 10 times as carcinogenic as chrysotile and probably 100 times more likely to produce mesothelioma than chrysotile.
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seemslikeadream (441 posts) Jan-17-03, 11:20 AM (ET) Reply to post #6
14. After everything I have read lately
this just pulls it all together and makes me truely sick to my stomach. With tears in my eyes I read your post over again, stickdog. How can anyone not believe with this evidence that there are some very dangerous games being played out. Wellstone was murdered no doubt and now a few more. Will there ever be justice?
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stickdog (1116 posts) Jan-16-03, 10:44 PM (ET) Reply to post #4
7. More for those who like breathing asbestos.
http://www.labournet.net/world/0201/asbest1.html WTC asbestos horror from Montana vermiculite mine Report by Andrew SchneiderSt. Louis Post-DispatchFirst Published: 01/13/02 Mining town in Montana endured the horrors of disease from asbestos LIBBY, Mont. Much of the asbestos-tainted vermiculite that spewed from the collapsing World Trade Center was dug from a mine in the Cabinet Mountains above this picturesque Kootenai River town. And in Libby, as in New York, environmental and health officials failed to disclose just how dangerous the mineral could be. Miners digging vermiculite ore at the now-closed W. R. Grace Zonolite mine in Libby breathed dust containing asbestos fibers, then carried it home on their clothes to their wives and children. Trucks carrying the dust spread it throughout the town, and trains hauled the potentially lethal cargo to almost 300 towns across the nation. The company knew it was deadly. But it did not require miners to wear respirators. Federal and state officials knew the dangers, but they looked the other way. Until, that is, the death toll began to climb. So far, hundreds of miners and their relatives have succumbed to the diseases caused by the asbestos fibers that painfully destroyed their lungs. Hundreds more are clinging to a torturous life, sucking air from portable oxygen bottles. And the federal government says its testing has found signs of the disease in thousands more who have been examined. EPA and federal health investigators have been virtually living in this tiny town in the western corner of Montana just below the Canadian border since November 1999. Most arrived three days after the Seattle Post-Intelligencer reported the deaths and contamination. They have studied the way asbestos kills - up close and far too personal. Their findings make suspect many of the absolute statements the government is making in playing down the hazards those living in lower Manhattan face from asbestos. http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/54382_asbestos14.shtml NYC under an asbestos cloud SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCERMonday, January 14, 2002By ANDREW SCHNEIDER©2002 ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCHFederal and state officials have grossly underestimated the number of people in lower Manhattan who are at risk of lethal asbestos-related disease because of the collapse of the World Trade Center, independent experts say.Evaluations by teams of leading asbestos researchers show the increased risk to people who live, work or study in homes or offices that have not been properly decontaminated could be as high as one additional cancer death for every 10 people exposed.These figures come as leading government officials continue to insist that there is no long-term health risk to those living and working near ground zero from the dust of hundreds of thousands of tons of asbestos-containing products used in the floors, walls, ceilings and steel frame of the twin towers."I am glad to reassure New Yorkers ... that their air is safe," Environmental Protection Agency Administrator Christine Whitman said a week after the attacks.When the World Trade Center went down, the EPA and the Occupational Safety and Health Administration rushed teams to the site. They have gathered thousands of samples of the dust that blanketed lower Manhattan, but they used 20-year-old methods for collecting and counting asbestos fibers to assess the health risks. The agencies and their state counterparts said only low levels of asbestos were found in the air outside. "The public faces little or no danger from asbestos," numerous agency heads echoed.Civilian scientists and physicians hired by unions, tenant groups, contractors and New York political leaders found just the opposite. Taking hundreds of samples, many inside apartments, offices and condos, these experts used the newest electron microscope technology and fiber-counting protocols. They found far more asbestos fibers than did government investigators. These private experts -- all regularly used by the government as consultants -- found levels in the dwellings that alarmed many assessing the health risk faced by New Yorkers."If people continue living and working in places that still have dust in the carpets, furniture, drapes and heating and cooling system, these fibers will continue to be resuspended," Jenkins explained. "The elevated risk could be from around one in a thousand extra cancers to maybe as high as one in 10."Four other federal health experts -- two toxicologists, an epidemiologist and a physician -- from the EPA and the Centers for Disease Control, have studied the data gathered by Chatfield, Kominsky and a team headed by Hugh Granger of HP Environmental in Virginia. They agreed with Jenkins' interpretation of the data. http://www.asbestosnetwork.com/news/nw_020102_nyc_wtc.htm Asbestos Remains a Problem Near Trade Center NEW YORK, NY February 1, 2002 Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) ombudsman Robert Martin recently opened an investigation into how the agency has handled air quality concerns in the World Trade Center area since the September 11 terrorist attacks. The study will concentrate on the type of testing performed and the EPA procedures for informing the public about levels of asbestos and other toxic substances. Various testing laboratories hired by neighborhood tenants, labor groups, and contractors have found elevated levels of asbestos in apartments and offices, according to news sources (Seattle Post-Intelligencer, January 14, 2002; Los Angeles Times, January 18, 2002). However, EPA administrator Christie Whitman and many New York City officials have repeatedly assured Lower Manhattan residents that their community is safe. A senior EPA scientist, Cate Jenkins, thinks otherwise. The asbestos contamination in Lower Manhattan, up to seven blocks away from Ground Zero, is comparable or higher than that found in Libby, Montana, a designated Superfund site, she states in a recent report. http://landofpuregold.com/truth38.htm A Red Flag on Air Tests at WTCBy Juan Gonzalez, Daily News, March 21, 2002 In the days after Sept. 11, EPA officials used standards to determine dangerous asbestos contamination that were never intended to measure health risks, according to a new 43-page memo by a dissident Environmental Protection Agency scientist. Cate Jenkins, a 22-year veteran with the agency's Hazardous Waste Identification Division in Washington, charged that the agency "misrepresented safety levels and standards for asbestos" and failed to accurately detect possible health risks to the public. Jenkins first criticized her agency's handling of the World Trade Center disaster in late November, arguing that EPA officials effectively "waived" federal asbestos guidelines by endorsing lenient cleanup methods. In the days after Sept. 11, federal officials repeatedly referred to two "standards," one for asbestos in dust and debris and another for asbestos fibers in air. For dust and debris, the agency standard was 1% asbestos content. For air, it was usually 70 asbestos fibers per square millimeter of a testing filter. The "EPA has performed 62 dust sample analyses for the presence of asbestos and other substances. Most dust samples fall below EPA's definition of asbestos- containing material <1% asbestos>," EPA Administrator Christie Whitman announced Sept. 18. Whitman was correct about one thing. Most dust samples were below the 1% standard, but a significant portion were not. Around 35% of those taken in the first few days were above 1%. But as Jenkins explains in her memo, federal regulations never meant the 1% figure to be considered a health standard or even to be applied to measure dust. "She's absolutely correct, this is not a health-based standard," said Joel Shufrot, the executive director of the New York Committee for Occupational Safety and Health. "People exposed to 1% or less can have significant exposure with adverse health impacts," he said.
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seventhson (1167 posts) Jan-16-03, 09:05 PM (ET) Reply to post #1
5. So - the three MAIN witnesses who could nail Grace died in the crash.
Engine failure? Power died out. Unexplained crash? Three dead witnesses? Wellstoned. If these guys had ratted on what Grace knew about the dangers to New Yorkers from the WTC asbestos (which I inhaled on my visit to the tower site) then there would be hell (and maybe billions in damages) to pay. And Bush is covering for them. Grace has ties to the Skulls/BFEE too. They are the company Travolta fought in "A Civil Action". I knew a Grace heir who went to Yale. He once told me "we're all guilty". I told him "Not me." Once again. Disgusting and VERY expensive if these guys had talked. Remember when the plane went down mysteriously? I asked who the passengers were. Brilliant reporting. EMPWeapons again? Wellstoned. Salaam/Shalom and Peace Out!!!Gore in '04!!! “I DON'T KNOW WHETHER I WAS TARGETED, BUT I certainly know that human rights activists are targeted,”“It’s a small story that tells the larger story of what’s happening..." THE LATE SENATOR PAUL WELLSTONE commenting on reports that he was the target of an assassination attempt in December 2000.
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patcox2 (745 posts) Jan-17-03, 11:35 AM (ET) Reply to post #5
17. The plane never lost power.
And it happened in broad daylight at an airport with hundreds of witnesses, and there was a black box and its been recovered. You are not as free to speculate wildly in such circumstances. Its easy enough to beleive the plane was sabotaged, as all the evidence so far in fact points to a faulty repair to the hroizontal stabilizer trim tab. Faulty repair? Maybe faulty on purpose? Thats so much more easy to believe than your chupacabra theory.
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stickdog (1116 posts) Jan-17-03, 04:23 PM (ET) Reply to post #17
21. I must agree.
This looks more like a message than anything. Killing these guys was probably second to simply sending them (and others?) a message that accidents can and do happen.
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seemslikeadream (441 posts) Jan-20-03, 10:33 AM (ET) Reply to post #5
50. Yes who were those employees
what did they know and what papers were they carrying that are now gone forever. Only the very people that could blow the lid off the biggest cancer causing conspiracy ever! Wellstone was murdered trying to uncover it. Watch Out Pat Murry!
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nu_duer (413 posts) Jan-16-03, 08:59 PM (ET)
3. Man. wtf is going on here?
Lotta connections and questions here. And the smear of Murray about her bin Laden commments - that coincided as well, didn't it? Guess she wouldn't get on a small plane. I would love to see some investigative reporting from some mainstream press on this. This looks like big, big stuff here. Thanks.
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ElsewheresDaughter (367 posts) Jan-17-03, 09:55 PM (ET) Reply to post #3
27. send link to this thread to GREG PALAST!

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Sophree (267 posts) Jan-19-03, 04:36 PM (ET) Reply to post #3
45. I fear for Patty Murray's safety
She should avoid small planes at all costs. Apparently, 'conspiracy stuff' is now shorthand for unspeakable truth.- Gore Vidal The harder they come, the harder they'll fall/One and all- Jimmy Cliff
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JohnyCanuck (482 posts) Jan-16-03, 11:18 PM (ET)
8. It's all ok folks
as any coincidence theorists will explain, it's all a BIG F**KING COINCIDENCE. Move along now, nothing to see here. You're holding up traffic. JohnyCanuck Proud founding member of Canadian Chapter - Cynthia's Grassy Knoll Society.
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Nottingham (1293 posts) Jan-17-03, 01:14 AM (ET)
9. OMG OMG OMG!! WHOAH!
That was just even more added reason to go after Wellstone! Have Any Dreams Lately!
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goforit (741 posts) Jan-17-03, 01:22 AM (ET)
10. OMG!!! Who is going to arrest Cheney and Bush??????
This is just going tooo damn FAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I'm just so damned TICKED OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We have got to bear down and do something!!!!!These guys are getting away with Bloody murder!!!!
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anamandujano (211 posts) Jan-17-03, 07:33 AM (ET) Reply to post #10
13. There have got to be plenty of people who
know they're at risk of having an accident. They would be smart to come forward before anything happens. Especially those on the inside who know facts.
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Cronus (1285 posts) Jan-17-03, 01:31 AM (ET)
11. Excellent work (eom)
Thanks. "...political leaders need not trouble themselves very much with reality provided that their performances consistently generate a sense of versimilitude." — Neil Postman (Amusing Ourselves to Death) Visit My Favorite Web Sites
Progressive buttons —http://brainbuttons.com/ Political Satire —http://bushspeaks.com/

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seemslikeadream (441 posts) Jan-17-03, 06:09 AM (ET)
12. Just to make sure the morning
people don't miss this
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JackRiddler (109 posts) Jan-17-03, 11:28 AM (ET) Reply to post #12
15. kick!
x
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Nottingham (1293 posts) Jan-17-03, 11:39 AM (ET) Reply to post #12
18. Well I feel sorry for the People who live in Manhatten! Their Screwed!
Manhatten has truly been destroyed! Osama Bin Laudin has killed more than 3000!Have Any Dreams Lately!
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loudsue (1107 posts) Jan-17-03, 12:07 PM (ET) Reply to post #18
20. And Bush KNEW, and Bush LET IT HAPPEN!
NO JETS WERE SCRAMBLED!!FEMA HAD ARRIVED ON SEPT. 10TH!! Just more and more amazing "coincidences"!
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patcox2 (745 posts) Jan-17-03, 11:31 AM (ET)
16. The dust looked like snow falling even months after 9/11
I spent 3 days in Manhattan, midtown, in November of 2001. You could see the dust in the air, it was sparkly, like tiny crystals, and at night you could see it form halos around street lamps like tiny snowflakes.
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Nottingham (1293 posts) Jan-17-03, 11:41 AM (ET) Reply to post #16
19. Pat cox it was a Death Snow!
I feel truly sorry for the people who breathed it! Have Any Dreams Lately!
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stickdog (1116 posts) Jan-17-03, 04:31 PM (ET) Reply to post #19
22. Yep. No conspiracy other than this single conspiracy of silence
should be required to put this entire inhuman crew of corporate murderers behind bars. But, of course, a program director might have an accident if this story was featured on a primetime "news" magazine. And the judge and prosecutors might have accidents if this ever came to trial.
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goforit (741 posts) Jan-17-03, 08:06 PM (ET) Reply to post #22
23. Certainly there is something we can do before more get murdered
My god.......I can not stand sitting here typing away knowing that we have these premeditative murders happenning as we talk. Some how we have got to find a reliable connectionthat can resolve this serious problem.
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stickdog (1116 posts) Jan-17-03, 08:59 PM (ET)
24. More on the destination of the three W.R. Grace & Co. victims
From: http://greenvilleonline.com/news/2003/01/08/2003010834140.htm Crash ends promising lives in an instantBy Liv OsbyHEALTH [e-mail] Many were just starting their lives, like the two Clemson University graduate students, the Bob Jones University co-ed and the young father traveling with his adolescent daughter. Others, including the North Carolina computer salesman with two small children at home and three employees of W.R. Grace & Co., were just making a living when their US Airways plane flipped, crashed and burst into flames moments after takeoff Wednesday morning from Charlotte. W.R. Grace & Co. veteran Richard Lyons was global health and safety manager at Grace Performance Chemicals in Cambridge, Mass. Lyons, 56, joined the company in 1969. Married with two children, he lived in Lynnfield, Mass. Joseph Spiak, 46, also worked at the Cambridge site as general manager for specialty vermiculite (note: this includes the highly toxic, widely distributed brand of asbestos contaminated vermiculite marketed under the W.R. Grace brand name of Zonolite). A resident of Acton, Mass., he had been with Grace since 1981 and occasionally visited its Spartanburg facilities. He was married with two children. Paul Stidham was a newcomer to the company, joining last July as director of environment health and safety for Grace's corporate headquarters in Columbia, Md. He and his wife, Dora, and their two young children made their home in Howard County, Va. All three were on their way to a Grace mining plant in Enoree, S.C. "We are devastated and stunned by this tragic loss," said Grace CEO Paul Norris. From: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/gard31.shtml Asbestos found in many common garden products EPA tests to determine health risks Friday, March 31, 2000 By ANDREW SCHNEIDERand CAROL SMITHSEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTERS 2000 Seattle Post-Intelligencer. All rights reserved. Federal investigators have found potentially lethal forms of asbestos in several lawn and garden products that contain vermiculite, a mineral used in hundreds of such products nationwide. "I think it is cause for concern," said Dr. Christine Oliver, assistant clinical professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School, who has about 600 patients with asbestos-caused diseases. "There is no safe level of asbestos exposure," she said. The EPA findings could explain some of the so-called spontaneous tumors that arise in people who have no known exposure to asbestos, Oliver said. "My contention is they are not arising spontaneously and these data support that," she said. "Who would have known asbestos was in these products?" After the first results came in, the investigators repeated the tests and confirmed the findings. The types of asbestos found were fibrous actinolite and tremolite, both classified as carcinogens by several government agencies. Concern about the safety of vermiculite was sparked by Seattle Post-Intelligencer stories in November about a now-closed W.R. Grace & Co. mine in Libby, Mont., where more than 300 miners and their family members contracted fatal diseases including asbestosis, cancer and mesothelioma because of their exposure to tremolite asbestos fibers in the vermiculite ore. The EPA's results confirm similar tests of several brands of potting soil, soil enhancers and vermiculite conducted by the P-I from December through March as part of the newspaper's ongoing investigation of asbestos dangers in the United States. "We got numerous calls from citizens who had read about the deaths in Libby and asked if there was asbestos in garden products, will they be exposed to it and will they become sick from it," McDermott says. "Yes, there is asbestos in some of the products. And, yes, in using the product the way many people do, asbestos can be released. Horticultural industry analysts estimate that at least 65 local, regional and national companies produce more then 375 lawn and garden products containing vermiculite. The world's largest vermiculite mine is in the northeastern corner of South Africa. Some U.S. companies buy it, but many say they purchase ore from the Grace mine in Enoree, S.C., or from Virginia Vermiculite's mines, owned by Robert Sansom, in Louisa, Va., and near Enoree. Officials at the EPA regions responsible for Virginia and South Carolina said there was no indication that the agency had inspected any of the vermiculite mines in recent years. EPA studies on vermiculite mines were done in 1981, 1982 and 1991. The studies showed the presence of asbestos at Grace's Enoree mine, but at levels far lower than those at Libby. "Asbestos is a toxic substance and if it's in commercial products, we have an obligation to look as far back as it takes, to get to the bottom of where it's coming from," says John Melone, EPA director of national programs, chemical division. "When that product leaves the mine, someone is putting it into commerce. Whoever that someone is, whether they own the mine or not, that person is responsible for knowing what is in the product. And we have a right to ask for that information."
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Nottingham (1293 posts) Jan-17-03, 09:44 PM (ET) Reply to post #24
25. So this stuff is everywhere!
Wow this is soo sad! Have Any Dreams Lately!
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stickdog (1116 posts) Jan-18-03, 01:00 AM (ET) Reply to post #25
31. Dude, they are still makings billions selling it!
LAST EDITED ON Jan-18-03 AT 01:14 AM (ET) It's in everything from topsoil to insulation to fireproofing paint to door cores to auto gaskets to fertilizer to animal feed to concrete to bricks to plaster to pool construction materials to roofing. They even sell it to--get this--clean up asbestos and other toxic waste! http://www.na.graceconstruction.com/prodline.cfm?did=10 How does this sound to you? Recognized worldwide for their in-place performance and superior durability, Monokote products can be found in all types of buildings including high-rise construction, manufacturing facilities, schools, hospitals and sports facilities. above from: http://www.na.graceconstruction.com/prodline.cfm?did=3
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ElsewheresDaughter (367 posts) Jan-17-03, 09:49 PM (ET) Reply to post #24
26. Murray promises to renew push for asbestos warnings....
and murray was smeared in the media about her osama comments to silence her and make her look like a loop...murray was mckinneytized in the hopes of discrediting her.someone else posted this a few weeks ago..... Amazing , Grace airline travel gets riskier and riskier for certain folks... You remember this article:<snip> Murray promises to renew push for asbestos warningsBy ROBERT MCCLURE SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTERDec. 30 - After revelations that the Bush administration squelched public health warnings about a widely used form of insulation that contains cancer-causing asbestos, Sen. Patty Murray vowed yesterday to renew her fight for a public education campaign. Murray, D-Wash., said she will demand an explanation this week for why warnings planned last spring by the Environmental Protection Agency were called off at the last minute by high-ranking Bush administration officials. Internal EPA documents show that about 15 million to 35 million of the nation's approximately 105 million households contain a brand of insulation known as Zonolite. Mined for decades in Libby, Mont., Zonolite contains a particularly lethal form of asbestos known as tremolite. In Washington alone, at least 53,505 homes contain Zonolite insulation, according to lawyers who filed a class-action suit seeking to force W.R. Grace & Co., the Libby vermiculite mine's last owner, to warn homeowners of the danger. Now, look at who was on that plane that crashed in North Carolina: http://www.islandpacket.com/news/state/regional/story/2073734p-1989786c.html Paul Stidham, 46, of Dayton, Md., was traveling on business for his employer, W.R. Grace of Columbia, Md.Stidham, who was the director of environment health and safety at Grace's corporate headquarters, was one of three Grace workers on the flight. The other two, 56-year-old Richard Lyons and 46-year-old Joseph Spiak of Boston, were employees of Grace Performance Chemicals in Cambridge, Mass. Wow.....gee, it sure seems like a coincidence. Heck, the news media hasn't connected those dots. Nothing to see, please move along. The US government would never participate in targetted assassinations of "potential problems"... I suspected something like this. Just like the Choicepoint exec who died in a plane crash shortly after the florida felon purge was going to be examined. One of the other 2 Grace employees was director of the very area of environment and safety that would have been involved in the asbestos case. Did you know that Murray's asbestos education bill, introduced in July, was co-sponsered by Paul Wellstone? Seriously. Who knows how or if ANYTHING connects?
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JohnyCanuck (482 posts) Jan-17-03, 10:00 PM (ET)
28. Does anyone at DU know any NYC firefighters?
Or for that matter any other workers who took part in the rescue efforts or the cleanup of the WTC. If so they need to know about this. One way to help get this info out is to forward it to the people who are most likely to be affected. It's likely that these emergency workers would start showing symptoms or having lung problems first as they probably had the most exposure. For a start they should be warned of the possible medical problems they might run into so they don't pussy foot around about getting medical attention if they start developing any symptoms of lung problems. JohnyCanuck Proud founding member of Canadian Chapter - Cynthia's Grassy Knoll Society.
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ElsewheresDaughter (367 posts) Jan-17-03, 10:29 PM (ET) Reply to post #28
30. my husband is a hoboken firefighter and
i know 7 NYC firefighters and believe me this will be in thier hands tomorrow!btw hoboken is directly across the hudson river from the WTCthis is most disturbing...will this bush nightmare ever end?
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Eloriel (4958 posts) Jan-17-03, 10:11 PM (ET)
29. Stickdog, you are amazing
Simply amazing. Kudos. Ya know what I'd like to see? I'd like to see someone get to talk to some of the people under the 3 who were killed, or their wives/family, or both. Do you feel up to writing all this up for publication? If not, how about passing it on to someone like Greg Palast, or someone at MoJo? Surely someone somewhere can do something with this. Ya think? Eloriel Bush is neither a uniter nor a divider. He's a destroyer. "Face it," wrote Garrison Keiller in Time, "a nation that maintains a 72% approval rating on George W. Bush is a nation with a very loose grip on reality."
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Nottingham (1293 posts) Jan-18-03, 01:04 AM (ET) Reply to post #29
32. i agree ya need to show this to someone! Its Awesome!
Awesome Awesome! Have Any Dreams Lately!
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goforit (741 posts) Jan-18-03, 01:09 AM (ET) Reply to post #29
33. Greg Palast is a great idea!! On the NY firemen call 1411 for info
and I'm sure they would find someone in Ny who would listen.I am so proud of all of you digging your heals in.Keep up the great work!!!
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stickdog (1116 posts) Jan-18-03, 12:32 PM (ET)
34. The Sordid History of WR Grace and the Lilly, MT Asbestos Mine
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/asbestos/chronology.shtml
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Despondent (51 posts) Jan-18-03, 03:28 PM (ET) Reply to post #34
35. Eliott Spitzer
NY'S Attorney General is someone you could forward this info to he seems to be on our side
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9215 (1541 posts) Jan-19-03, 04:06 PM (ET) Reply to post #34
42. Question
First I want to thank your for this fantastic work. I think you meant "Libby" not "Lilly" in your post title. The weird thing is that ex Eli Lilly head Mitch Daniels is Bush's OMB boy that Patty Murray sent a letter to on the asbestos warning being pulled. When I saw your post title I almost crapped me drawers thinking there was a link between Eli Lilly and WR Grace. Empoweryour Democrat representative. Send them important info on a topic. They will listen. Easy way to send your three national representatives e-mail with one letter: www.congress.org.
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Insider (2155 posts) Jan-18-03, 04:35 PM (ET)
36. hypothetical
for whatever reason, the towers are identified as a hazard (materials, construction, outdated, whatever). would the issue ever see the light of day?if so, what methods would be considered for destruction?how would the public (NY city, NY state, USA, world) handle plans to bring down the towers? what would be the response? Proud Member of The Grassy Knoll Society (Chesapeake Bay Chapter) Black slaves built the White House.
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seemslikeadream (441 posts) Jan-19-03, 04:24 PM (ET) Reply to post #36
43. I have to tell you that's guite the
LAST EDITED ON Jan-19-03 AT 04:38 PM (ET) story you present. Sure does tie everything and I mean everything together! You know the more I think about it, God forgive them for they know not what they do, I believe you and stickdog have put it out there, how many will take note.
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stickdog (1116 posts) Jan-19-03, 02:24 AM (ET)
37. Wellstone vs. Corporate Asbestos Murderers
From:http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:Zds7vaEKUrUC:wellstone.senate.gov/asbestos.html June 18, 2002 Wellstone, Murray, Dayton Introduce Bill to Ban Asbestos Joined At Press Conference By Susan Vento, Widow of Congressman Bruce Vento (Washington, D.C.) - Senator Paul Wellstone (D-MN) today joined Senators Patty Murray (D-WA) and Mark Dayton (D-MN) in introducing the Ban Asbestos In America Act of 2002 that would ban the 6 regulated forms of asbestos, require additional research into the risks associated with asbestos, and initiate a public information campaign increase awareness of the dangers posed by products that contain asbestos in homes and workplace"As chair of the subcommittee with jurisdictional responsibility for protecting worker health and safety, I am extremely concerned about the problems of asbestos contamination in the workplace," Wellstone said. "I also know first-hand, from the experience in my home state of Minnesota, how far the tentacles of asbestos contamination can reach. Thousands of residents in Minneapolis are potentially at risk from a facility that processed asbestos-laden vermiculite from the Grace Mine in Libby, Montana. And unfortunately this is only one of the many sites around the country experiencing this dreadful contamination." Today, asbestos is everywhere -- in brake pads, roofing shingles, insulation, corrugated paper and fire protection. Despite the fact that most Americans believe that we have we have banned asbestos, this deadly substance remains in products we use everyday. The health effects of asbestos can take up to 40 years to set in, but the consequences of asbestos exposure are often deadly. Among its many victims, Minnesota Congressman Bruce Vento (D-MN) died of mesothelioma from exposure to asbestos. "Asbestos contamination is not a thing of the past - far from it. It is killing and injuring countless numbers of people," Wellstone said. "We must do everything we can to end this devastating problem. While many recognize asbestos as a contaminant, in fact a carcinogen, I believe the American public would be shocked to know that asbestos is still being added to products on purpose." From:http://216.239.33.100/search?q=cache:uB2IDWMw-FUC:wellstone.senate.gov/asbestos.htm April 18, 2000 Wellstone Stands With Steelworkers in Opposing Asbestos Legislation Bills Before Congress Would Rob Victims of Their Basic Rights (Eveleth, MN) --Senator Paul Wellstone, joining steelworkers in Eveleth today, announced his opposition to a proposed settlement which would prevent workers afflicted with asbestos-related illnesses from collecting the compensation they deserve. Wellstone said legislation before Congress, if passed, would deprive workers of their basic right to receive just compensation for illnesses they unknowingly contracted while working in factories polluted with asbestos."This legislation is a slap in the face to steelworkers and other Minnesotans who struggle to put a roof over their families' heads and put food on the table; never mind pay high medical bills for diseases they contracted for doing nothing more than putting in an honest day's work," Wellstone said. "It would rob them of their right to just compensation, it would rob them of their right to see justice served on those responsible for making them sick, and it would rob them of their right to get their lives back on track. I will do everything I can to honor the labor of these workers, and friends like Bruce Vento, by fighting this legislation in the Senate."
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seemslikeadream (441 posts) Jan-19-03, 06:24 AM (ET) Reply to post #37
38. Thanks again stickdog
I think you've found the real reason we don't have Paul around anymore.
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opus460 (12 posts) Jan-19-03, 02:31 PM (ET) Reply to post #37
39. Bill number S.2641
I think we should all write to our Senators and ask the status of bill # S.2641 (Ban Asbestos in America Act of 2002). Seems they're just trying to let this die in a committee.
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Nottingham (1293 posts) Jan-19-03, 02:43 PM (ET) Reply to post #39
40. Hopefully the Bill didn't die like its Co Sponsor!
This is worse than Dioxin! Have Any Dreams Lately!
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seemslikeadream (441 posts) Jan-19-03, 03:07 PM (ET) Reply to post #39
41. Thanks for the info opus460
good idea. I was wondering who to send this stuff to. A hand written note along with a copy of what stickdog has posted here. A top 20 list of people that just might take it to heart if they only knew. Any suggestions? Maybe Grace employees families? Wellstone's family? Maybe they already know.
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opus460 (12 posts) Jan-19-03, 04:35 PM (ET) Reply to post #41
44. Show me the money!!!
Robert M. Tarola, Senior VP and CFO, W.R. Grace$1000 to Republican Senatorial Committee 1/22/01 Paul M. Norris, Chairman, President, CEO, W.R. Grace$5000 to Republican National Committee 10/10/2000$3000 to American Chemistry Council 3/6/2001$5000 to American Chemistry Council 4/16/2002$1000 to American Chemistry Council 2/22/2000$500 to GW Bush 6/4/1999 There could be more, just don't have the time to look it all up. Another interesting angle would be to look for any connections with Skull & Bone Society. Also looks to be strong links with the American Chemistry Council and Homeland Security.
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seemslikeadream (441 posts) Jan-19-03, 04:49 PM (ET) Reply to post #44
46. opus460 have you read insiders post 36
what do you think, interesting huh?
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reprobate (1755 posts) Jan-19-03, 05:11 PM (ET) Reply to post #46
47. Seemslikeadream
I'm a , but this seems like a stretch. Could you put it together for me? My mind keeps hitting walls on this. George Washington on crossing the delaware: "Move your fat ass, Henry. And do it slowly so you don't swamp the boat."As told by Gen. Henry "Ox" Knox. Flags are bits of colored cloth that governments use, first to shrink wrap peoples brains, and then as cerimonial shrouds to bury the dead. Arundhati Roy
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seemslikeadream (441 posts) Jan-19-03, 06:13 PM (ET) Reply to post #47
48. You want me to say it outloud!
LAST EDITED ON Jan-19-03 AT 07:04 PM (ET) Oh, no tooooo scary. You know though I have always been fasinated with the art of demolition. You know when buildings become useless or hazordous to peoples health and have to be imploded and all the rubble hauled away to a special dump. Maybe an EPA regulated dump for harmful materials. Somewhere safe from, lets say ground water? Maybe Insider post 36 would elaborate, that's where my nightmare started.
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opus460 (12 posts) Jan-19-03, 06:31 PM (ET) Reply to post #48
49. Fresh Kills Landfill
Most of the WTC wreckage was taken to this landfill: http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/dcp/html/fkl/ada/about/1_0.html Though I haven't heard anything regarding the environmental impact, I hope there is a study done on the lower Manhattan and surrounding areas (including where I previously lived across the Hudson in NJ) residents over the next several years/decades regarding asbestos related illnesses.

[Sophree]

16. And then there's the issue of depleted uranium.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2253052

Depleted Uranium: Dirty Bombs, Dirty Missiles, Dirty Bullets
by Leuren Moret
SF Bay View

A death sentence here and abroad
“Military men are just dumb stupid animals to be used as pawns in foreign policy.” - Henry Kissinger, quoted in “Kiss the Boys Goodbye: How the United States Betrayed Its Own POW’s in Vietnam”

Vietnam was a chemical war for oil, permanently contaminating large regions and countries downriver with Agent Orange, and environmentally the most devastating war in world history. But since 1991, the U.S. has staged four nuclear wars using depleted uranium weaponry, which, like Agent Orange, meets the U.S. government definition of Weapons of Mass Destruction. Vast regions in the Middle East and Central Asia have been permanently contaminated with radiation.

And what about our soldiers? Terry Jemison of the Department of Veterans Affairs reported this week to the American Free Press that “Gulf-era veterans” now on medical disability since 1991 number 518,739, with only 7,035 reported wounded in Iraq in that same 14-year period.

This week the American Free Press dropped a “dirty bomb” on the Pentagon by reporting that eight out of 20 men who served in one unit in the 2003 U.S. military offensive in Iraq now have malignancies. That means that 40 percent of the soldiers in that unit have developed malignancies in just 16 months...


How was the truth about DU hidden from military personnel serving in successive DU wars? Before his tragic death, Sen. Paul Wellstone informed Joyce Riley, R.N., B.S.N., executive director of the American Gulf War Veterans Association, that 95 percent of Gulf War veterans had been recycled out of the military by 1995. Any of those continuing in military service were isolated from each other, preventing critical information being transferred to new troops. The “next DU war” had already been planned, and those planning it wanted “no skunk at the garden party.”

********

I think they must have had numerous reasons for assassinating him.

[seventhson]

25. This is really upsetting info. Thank you for posting it.

www.radiation.org

Learn and KNOW what they are doing to ALL of us by reading the info at the link and go beyond that.

the depleted uranium is just sickening.

Halliburton IS the nuclear lobby.

[Sophree]

121. Thousands of soldiers are blaming melanoma

on the hot Iraqi sun. I read about an 18 year old (yes, 18) kid here in one of the local Florida rags who enlisted in the army when he was 17 and has been to Iraq and back already. He had a cancerous tumor removed from his back. He said it was from the hot Iraqi sun.

My question is- How much hotter is the sun in Iraq than Florida? I realize it's the desert and we're in the subtropics, so the average temp is higher. But still!

Here are some more articles on DU:

http://www.mindfully.org/Nucs/2004/DU-Trojan-Horse1jul04.htm

on edit: this paragraph from the article above is key to understanding the WHY:

"The fact is that the United States and its military partners have staged four nuclear wars, "slipping nukes under the wire" by using dirty bombs and dirty weapons in countries the US needs to control. Depleted uranium aerosols will permanently contaminate vast regions and slowly destroy the genetic future of populations living in those regions, where there are resources which the US must control, in order to establish and maintain American primacy."

http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/du_syndrome.html

[seemslikeadream]

27. Yes thanks for posting Sophree

I think they had numerous reasons for assassinating him also.

[Sophree]

133. no problem

It's time for people to stop covering up their ears.

[seemslikeadream]

144. Do you know about Kathy Kelly?

http://www.vitw.org/

Iraq Activist Kathy Kelly Sentenced to Federal Prison

by Kathy Kelly
Voices in the Wilderness
Yesterday in Columbus, Georgia, Kathy Kelly, co-founder of Voices in the Wilderness and three-time Nobel Peace Prize nominee, was sentenced to three months in federal prison for enacting her habit of bearing witness against US military violence, this time by crossing onto the property of Ft. Benning military base in November of 2003, as a form of protest against the School of the Americas/Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation (SOA/WHISC). You can read "Hogtied and Abused at Fort Benning," her account of the inhumane treatment that she received by her arresting officers.


By visiting the SOA Watch website, you can find more information about the SOA/WHISC, which has trained many of the military dictators and soldiers who have massacred hundreds of thousands of people of Central and South America, especially indigenous people. You can also learn about other ways to support the project of closing the SOA/WHISC. Just as the US occupation in Iraq fails to provide for the security of ordinary Iraqis, the SOA/WHISC has, at the very least, failed in its stated task of 'security' for Latin America and, in actuality, created more insecurity and fear for millions of people in the Global South. Kathy's act of crossing the line with 27 other witnesses for peace, including VitW friend Rev. Jerry Zawada, O.F.M., is a sign of the commitment to nonviolent direct action which Voices in the Wilderness clings to as a hopeful road to peace and social justice in our world

http://www.antiwar.com/orig/kelly.php?articleid=1799

:hi:

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Minstrel Boy]

13. "It is equally likely..."

No, it bloody well isn't.

But if it makes you feel better...

[Octafish]

22. What an interesting perspective.

"Let Paul rest in peace and wait for Oliver Stone to make a movie about it before we jump to any conclusions about conspiracy theories."

Remember what Gore Vidal said about "conspiracy theories"? Vidal said "conspiracy theory" was code for "unspeakable truth."

Wellstone's death changed the balance of power in the Senate. Without the ability to investigate the executive branch's nefarity, that's done wonders for the Bush Crime Family fortunes.

BTW: Ted Kennedy was supposed to be on Wellstone's plane. Gee. That would have meant two famous people with one crash.

[Minstrel Boy]

12. Here's an early review:

Target Wellstone
BY RUSS WELLEN Sept 7

...

Excluding, and perhaps removing, evidence is exactly what official bodies seem to have set out to do. Only an hour after first responders arrived on the crash site at 11 a.m., the FBI materialized on the scene. In other words, they would have departed from St. Paul at 9:30--when Wellstone's plane was taking off.

After possibly spiriting away the cockpit voice recorder, the FBI announced the crash wasn't the work of terrorists. Meanwhile, the National Traffic Safety Board's lead investigator, Frank Hildrup, when asked why there was no public hearing, responded that they were reserved for "high profile cases."

...

Understanding the crash, they believe, requires establishing why the King Air suddenly stopped communicating. Another man on his way to the funeral, driving within a couple blocks of the airport at the time of the crash experienced otherworldly cell-phone interference. He reported hearing a sound "between a roar and loud humming voice...oscillating...screeching and humming noise."

...

Wellstone reported that before the Senate vote on Iraq, Dick Cheney had warned him that bucking the administration could result in severe consequences for both him and the state of Minnesota. Neither was the vice president happy about the legislation Wellstone had introduced to improve protection against asbestos poisoning. Cheney had left Halliburton in a position to be sued by its insurer for asbestos claims staggering in their potential for remuneration. Only his assumption of the vice presidency granted him immunity from deposition.






http://www.freezerbox.com/archive/article.asp?id=309

[greblc]

14. There was certainly motives.

There certainly is the capability.

There certainly was the will.

There certainly will never be any proof.

Karl rove is very good at covering his tracks.

[seventhson]

19. I think there is plenty of proof

and I think the proof is beyond a reasonable doubt.

EMP was used to down Wellstone's plane. It is a relatively simple means and almost undetectable.

BFEE is the perp

probably ordered by Mad Dog Cheney -- and Bush, who is too stupid to be in the loop, was just practicing his "love" with the electorate when he let his mad dog run wild.

[donkeyotay]

142. Sure, but do you have the smoking memo???

If you have the paperwork, can you prove the font was from Dick's word processor???

No, I didn't think so.

Back I go to happydale where America is never wrong and our politics are pure as snow... job.

(sarcasm)

[JNelson6563]

17. I knew they whacked him from day one

Those miserable wretches. They are so overdue for a serious reckoning....

Julie

[bvar22]

18. I can't prove it,

but in my I heart, I know they killed him. The timing, and the fact that he had just pulled ahead of Coleman in the polls clinches it for me. Beyond coincidence.



Paul kicking republican ass!
#1 Target on NeoCon hit list

[seventhson]

24. We COULD prove it if the evidence were looked at objectively

Proving something depends on who's the judge and/or the jury.

Right now WE are the jury and I think it is already well proven that Wellstone's death was an assassination.

Certainly by a preponderance of the evidence.

In my opinion it is proof beyond a reasonable doubt because there is no other viable explanation for the crash than intentionally targeted EMP interference with the plane's power.

I litigate cases on a regular basis as a trial attorney.

Proving something is easy: you just need to convince whoever is making the official decision.

In this case WE make that decision.

Hopefully one day a jury will reach a verdict on it.


But in the meantime the evidence so far proves that it was an assassination in THIS juror's mind. I am certain that the Bush/Cheney team assassinated him via EMP.

Main Entry: <1>proof
Pronunciation: 'prüf
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, alteration of preove, from Old French preuve, from Late Latin proba, from Latin probare to prove —more at PROVE
Date: 13th century
1 a : the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or a fact b : the process or an instance of establishing the validity of a statement especially by derivation from other statements in accordance with principles of reasoning
2 : obsolete : EXPERIENCE
3 : something that induces certainty or establishes validity
4 : archaic : the quality or state of having been tested or tried; especially : unyielding hardness
5 : evidence operating to determine the finding or judgment of a tribunal

[natrat]

26. nothing here

move along

[burythehatchet]

29. what a great picture od Senator Wellstone

[Cascadian]

80. Not too long ago this would have been considered tinfoil hat talk.

Now I am not so sure this should be treated as a conspiracy theory. I no longer put anything past these people. The timing of it was strange and the reports in regard to that crash also seem inconsistant. I do not think people should make humor of this and make it out to be a tinfoil hat thing anymore. The people on the Neocon side of politics are ruthless, evil, and twisted. They are not above murder. I am not 100 per cent certain that they killed Wellstone but the percentage is pretty damn close. The same with Mel Carnahan as well. I am also starting to wonder if the same thing is going to happen with anybody else running for office this year.


John

[Eloriel]

136. It's NEVER a good idea to dismiss "conspiracy theories"

out of hand. Never. Take it from one who knows -- There was a time in my life in the not so distant past when I pretty much eschewed so-called conspiracy theories. I didn't totally dismiss them, but I DID treat them dismissively.

CIA? Overturning legitimate governments? Nahhhh, couldn't be.

So the Warren Commission got it really wrong about a "magic bullet." The fact is, Oswald killed Kennedy, and that's that.

The U.S. military completely bungled a rescue attempt for U.S. citizens held hostage in Iran? And then they're finally released on the very day that Reagan gets sworn in? How odd. Guess the Iranians really didn't like Carter.

GHWBush had Nazis on his campaign staff? What an odd coincidence. Niazis, in this day and age? Very strange.

Hmmm, what does it mean for a sitting president to have once been head of the CIA?

Prescott Bush, Nazis? So what? That was ages ago. What relevance does that have to today?

Do NOT dismiss "conspiracy theories" out of hand. NEVER, ever, ever, ever, ever. Keep your mind open, be curious, explore them, be open to what you find without making a judgment one way or the other too quickly and CERTAINLY not a judgment against too quickly.

Personally, I can't recall a single "conspiracy theory" that hasn't had some if not a lot of truth in it -- and many with as much truth as outsiders without any official access can cohere. I wish I'd looked at the Prescott Bush-Nazis connection when I first heard of it. I wish I'd have explored the GHWB-CIA issue when that question first occurred to me.

Frankly, I think one of the most important services DUers can perform is to try to spread those "conspiracy theories" far and wide. The ONE thing that will do the most good in our fight against fascism (which a Kerry presidency is unlikely to stop) is exposing it as completely as possible. The facts for all these various "conspiracy theories," when properly assembled, are quite damning enough as a rule. Just ask Michael Moore.

[Minstrel Boy]

28. Michael Ruppert: "The day after the crash I received a message

from a former CIA operative who has proven extremely reliable in the past and who is personally familiar with these kinds of assassinations. The message read, 'As I said earlier, having played ball (and still playing in some respects) with this current crop of reinvigorated old white men, these clowns are nobody to screw around with. There will be a few more strategic accidents. You can be certain of that.'"
http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/fetzer.htm

[Minstrel Boy]

32. "Ruppert also interviewed two Democratic Congressional representatives

who said they believed Wellstone was murdered. One said, 'I don't think there's anyone on the Hill who doesn't suspect it. It's too convenient, too coincidental, too damned obvious. My guess is that some of the less courageous members of the party are thinking about becoming Republicans right now.'"
http://www.opednews.com/thoreau1203_wellstone_assassinated.htm

[seemslikeadream]

37. W.R. Grace (division of Haliburton)

Senator Murray's who, along with Senator Wellstone, was co-sponsoring a bill trying to hold W.R. Grace (division of Haliburton) to the fire for the possibility that, "201,183 pounds of pure asbestos fiber from Grace was used in the WTC."

Do you remember that small plane crash with the W R Grace employees on it?
The very employees of W.R. Grace that would have had to testify in defense of their company in any upcoming W.R. Grace liability suits, insurance claims, and/or Senate Investigations prompted by the remaining bill sponsor, Senator Murray.

[Minstrel Boy]

31. no justice, no peace.

[Shallah Kali]

34. Remember the ReThuglicans braging about "had to kill off Wellstone"

http://web.archive.org/web/20040308115617/http://www.sltrib.com/2004/feb/02202004/utah/140572.asp

During a Feb. 5 meet-the-candidate night for the newly formed College Republicans U. chapter -- not to be confused with the older and more established College Republicans -- representatives for several candidates revved up the jovial crowd with such statements as "We need to put an end to the liberal Matheson era" and support "the Democrat killers."
As the audience giggled off and on, Mike Clement, representing congressional candidate Tim Bridgewater, spoke excitedly about Republican successes when College Republicans work hard, citing the victory of Norm Coleman in the 2002 U.S. Senate race in Minnesota.
As Clement bantered with the audience, one Republican gadfly noted that they defeated former Vice President Walter Mondale in that race, adding: "We had to kill off Wellstone to get it." He was referring to the death in a plane crash of Sen. Paul Wellstone and his family before the election.
An audio tape captures laughter. But both Clement and Danielle Fowles, acting chairwoman of the club, said they did not hear that comment and believe the laughter was just a continuation of the ongoing banter.

[Elginoid]

39. About the funeral that Paul was headed for-

who was it for, and how/when did that person die?

if this is indeed a conspiracy, wouldn't it make sense that that death/funeral was the bait to get him to travel by small plane to another part of the state...?

[seventhson]

46. No - it was a crime of opportunity

planned but waiting for a time and place where there would be the fewest witnesses (on the ground, etc.). No need to plan the death of a friend. Just be ready to attack when he is vulnerable.

They almost got Ted Kennedy too (and the same bastards had already killed Ted's brothers)

[geek tragedy]

40. This is ghoulish obsession.

The family believes it's an accident. I'll take their words, the NTSB, and the fact that the airline thought they would get nailed for negligence over professional and semi-professional quackery peddlers.

This is just paranoid crap from two professional conspiracy theorists who don't know a damn thing about aviation.

[walldude]

41. I don't know about this being paranoid crap,

it was awfully convienent timing. He would have trounced his opponent keeping the Senate in the Dems control. There is some interesting reading out there on the subject. Accident or not it was a huge loss.

[seemslikeadream]

42. Huge loss? Yes, but certainly not for Dick Cheney

[flaminbats]

50. ohh he's probably closely weighing the odds..

which is worth more, two deaths or 5,002 deaths?

[geek tragedy]

43. I worked on Senator Wellstone's campaigns, and I was devastated by

his loss.

As I recall, it was going to be a close race. Minnesota is no longer the progressive state it once was--too many suburban Pukes.

[Minstrel Boy]

44. This is what a head-in-the-sand sounds like.

This is just paranoid crap from two professional conspiracy theorists who don't know a damn thing about aviation.

Did you read the NTSB simulation couldn't crash their plane, and that a named NTSB panel member admitted they didn't know why Wellstone's plane crashed? Did you read about the impossibly early arrival of the FBI and their tampering with evidence? Did you read about the electronic anomolies at the time of the crash? Did you read about the extreme fire which consumed the fuselage yet left the fuel-bearing wings unscathed? Did you read about the asbestos connection? Did you read Cheney's warning to Wellstone? Did you read the quotes of the CIA operative and the Congressmen?

Did you, in fact, read anything that could challenge your prejudice against "conspiracy"? I ask, because this is a paradigm issue. If you refuse to consider the notion that elements of your government are capable of such acts, then the case for assassination will always be "paranoid crap" to you, regardless of the evidence, motive or means.

And this story is not just about aviation. It's about power, and the wicked men who wield it.

[geek tragedy]

47. As I said, people who cry conspiracy at every turn have no credibility.

The bottom line is that those most qualified to offer an opinion and those who had the most personal heartache at stake reject this idle speculation.

The asbestos connection is the dumbest theory this side of the Pentagon Missile.

Most conspiracy theorists approach it as an article of faith--they are emotionally invested in these theories. They KNEW that Wellstone was murdered the second they heard and they KNEW that 9/11 was an inside job the moment it happened.

One might as well debate the Virgin Birth with Catholics.

[seventhson]

49. SURE! No one could POSSIBLY believe Wellstone was assassinated

by the Bush-Cheney Industrial complex!

Nor could anyone believe Saudi friends of Bush/Cheney pulled off 9-11 to benefit Bush and temsleves.

Paranoia to think 9-11 was a CONSPIRACY at all? Isn't it.

At least we use facts to back up our beliefs and arguments instead of ridicule and emotion.

[geek tragedy]

52. Given the complete lack of coherent reasoning on behalf of either theory

I have no problem rejecting them.

Such theories must be proven, not disproven.

And no one uses facts to defend the Pentagon Missile theory.

[seventhson]

56. Once again - you are not arguing facts - you are just making

arguments based on ridicule.

The fact is that this book presents corroborative evidence for the EMP story.

EMP remains a plausible explanation for the crash no matter how much you ridicule it.

The evidence is all in the hands of the perpetrators so good luck meeting YOUR impossible and inane standard.

Research EMP's and THEN tell me it is impossible (it is not.

good luck

[geek tragedy]

57. I see speculation and random dot-connecting.

I see no evidence.

That's the thing about conspiracy theories--they can't be disproven--just expanded. That's not logic or science--that's the very freaking definition of a religion and article of faith.

It's good to see that you are so much more committed to the truth than his family, though.

[seventhson]

63. Why insult Wellstone's family?

They are the vicitms here.

I asked you to verify that they say it was an accident and not a political murder.

You have no such evidence.

As for EMP the evidence for that is pretty simple. The plane, for no explainable reason, fell from the sky after losing its electrical power.

Bush and Cheney have the means to make that happen as well as a HUGE motive.

There is no other plausible (or more plausible) reason for the crash (unless maybe everyone on board was unconscious)

Pilot error is SUSPECTED but is NOT proved in the NTSB report.

They fif not even EXAMINE the possibility of EMP, I would bet, because the Bush admin ran the investigation.

Why trust Bush at ALL? Why conclude pilot error or accident when you have insufficient evidence to prove that either.

Having worked on numerous investigations, including homicides, as an attorney my conclusion is that your position is untenable. There is PLENTY of evidence for murder and little for accident.

MORE investigation is required to get a more definitive picture of what happened. BUT you can NOT rule out my belief as to how it happened.

You can only try to disparage it with no evidence -- only your opinion.

[geek tragedy]

70. I'm not the one insulting Wellstone's family.

The ones insulting Wellstone's family are those who are accusing them of extorting money from people they don't think are responsible and are just hitting "deep pockets."

Again, of course I can't disprove your conspiracy theory. Conspiracy theories are impossible to disprove. They only get expanded. The NTSB contradicts the conspiracy theory? THEY'RE IN ON IT!!! The FBI was at the scene to investigate evidence of foul play? THEY'RE IN ON IT!!!

Sorry, but the conspiracy theorists here are not acquitting themselves particularly well. Conspiracy theories are a matter of faith, and I'm an atheist.

[stickdog]

91. The NTSB report didn't explain the cause of the accident.

NTSB reports ASSUME accidental crashes. They aren't tasked with considering alternatives. The FBI somehow ruled out foul play THE VERY DAY of the crash. Under these circumstances, the NTSB hardly had to be "in on it" to simply shrug their shoulders when it came to explaining how two pilots could have been so incompetent to veer the plane well off course AND slow down more than 60 mph below the recommended approach speed over the last 90 seconds of flight.

[geek tragedy]

97. The NTSB didn't shrug its shoulders.

"As a result of the crash, the investigators recommended the NTSB ask the FAA to require better crew training to prevent future accidents. NTSB member Carol Carmody said investigating the accident would've been easier had the air carrier been required to equip the plane with a cockpit voice recorder or cockpit data recorder.

Investigators also suggested that enhanced airspeed alerting systems for pilots could help prevent future accidents. Inattention and distraction can lead pilots to allow aircraft to slow to dangerous airspeeds, they said. They said there have been 18 air crashes since 1980 due to pilots inadvertently losing the airspeed required to keep their planes flying.

They said existing "stall" warnings don't activate until well after the airspeed has slipped to those dangerous levels. In this crash, they said, up to 40 seconds elapsed before the pilots were made aware of the situation, too late to allow them to avoid a stall and crash.

Investigators said when the plane crashed, its wings were level, apparently indicating that pilots were trying to keep the airplane flying, but ran out of time, and altitude."

One has to assume that the FBI was part of an evil conspiracy to make your theory work. No evidence of that.

And no one has yet explained why the NTSB report was good enough for Wellstone's colleagues and loved ones, but not good enough for people on this board. Well, I have an explanation . . .

[stickdog]

104. You don't know shit about the Wellstone family so stop lying about them.

How did two pilots manage to forget to engage autopilot in overcast instrument conditions, ignore the CDI needle for a full two minutes, slow more than 60 mph below the recommended approach speed, ignore the stall warning horn, and never even attempt a stall recovery or a go around or to radio a distress message?

The NTSB report didn't even try to explain this. If you ever read the report yourself, you'd have known this.

So why don't you try to explain this for us in narrative form. What was happening in the cockpit that led to this extraordinary level of pilot incompetence?

[geek tragedy]

119. You're not intersted in the truth, and you accuse me of being a liar

for going by the public record. What a mind you must possess.

AS I'VE SAID FOUR TIMES NOW, they said "EXISTING 'STALL' WARNINGS DON'T ACTIVATE UNTIL WELL AFTER THE AIRSPEED HAS SLIPPED TO THOSE DANGEROUS LEVELS. IN THIS CRASH, THEY SAID, UP TO 40 SECONDS ELAPSED BEFORE THE PILOTS WERE MADE AWARE OF THE SITUATION, TOO LATE (DID YOU CATCH THAT--TOO FUCKING LATE?!?!?!?)TO ALLOW THEM TO AVOID A STALL AND CRASH.

[stickdog]

123. But they never even TRIED to recover from any stall condition.

And in the NTSB simulations, every pilot who tried to recover recovered easily, even under severe icing condition that DIDN'T EXIST!

So, once again, you've written some words, but explained nothing. Just like the NTSB report itself.

[tom_paine]

82. Which is of course what people are left with in Totalitarian Socities

(or those in mid-transition between Democracy and Totalitarianism)

I understand it's painful for you. We all want to live in a nation where we can believe we are getting most of or the whole story maybe 50% of the time.

We ALL want to live in those halcyon days.

But those days, unless we ouselves restore them within the System, are over.

There was no evidence that Hitler & the Nazis burned the Reichstag down.

There still isn't direct evidence, to this day.

To play the Good German doesn't exactly make you a Nazi. It makes you among the weak and slavish who couldn't believe the Awful Truth, and thus helped lose everything.

[Minstrel Boy]

51. no:

Most conspiracy theorists approach it as an article of faith--they are emotionally invested in these theories. They KNEW that Wellstone was murdered the second they heard and they KNEW that 9/11 was an inside job the moment it happened.

I didn't on either score. I had to see evidence. For 9/11, it had to take me kicking and screaming. The gravity of it made me sick. I wish I thought otherwise. And note it's a matter of thought, not belief.

Please note your presumption, which rules out "conspiracy" before you've weighed the evidence. That's faith.

[geek tragedy]

53. No, where there's actual evidence

(WMD, Plame, aWol/cocaine coverup, Smearvets) I have no trouble believing it. The problem is that the Wellstone arguments are utterly unconvincing and unsupported. Same thing with the 9/11 theories.

[Minstrel Boy]

59. "unconvincing and unsupported"

There is FAR more evidence to support some measure of White House 9/11 complicity than, say, Bush's cocaine use. But you can't see it, because your paradigm won't permit you to consider the possibility.

Have you seen my Coincidence Theorists Guide to 9/11? Feel free to avail yourself of it.

[geek tragedy]

71. There is no strong evidence contradicting Bush's alleged cocaine use.

However, the existence of a much more likely suspect--Islamist terrorists who have declared war on the US--is proof that he wasn't involved. Unless you have evidence that Bush was conspiracing with OBL during the Clinton administration. Which you don't.

An allegation of a massive conspiracy within the US government requires more than a bunch of half-baked coincidences and weak circumstantial evidence.

[MadHound]

108. You know what friend, I'm old enough to remember when those words

Were shot at people who believed, then proved, that the Kennedy assasisnation was a conspiracy. If you didn't believe in the fantasy of the Warren Report, well, you were a kook, nut-case, conspiracy theorist, freak, etc. etc. ad nauseum.

And then, much to the suprise of the American public, in 1979 a group of handpicked men, charged with the task of whitewashing the matter, not actually investigation the charges but covering them up instead, were so overwhelmed by the evidence that they had to admit that the Kennedy assasination WAS a conspiracy. That group was the House Committee on Assasinations. Tragically, there was no follow through on the matter, and the perpetrators of that dastardly deed remain unpunished.

And now we are faced with more of these events, tragic deaths under mysterious circumstances. Those dedicated few who are doing their own investigating are turning up troubling, disconcerting evidence that doesn't fit the official explanation. As a consequence they are being smeared, labeled as kooks and tin foil hatters. Yet that pesky evidence, those inconvient facts keep piling up and piling up. And perhaps in another fifteen years, there will be a whitewash committee appointed that reluctantly finds these matters to be the work of a mysterious conspiracy. Will you believe us then, or will you continue to keep your head in the sand so that your head doesn't explode?

As FDR stated(and he should know)"Nothing that happens in politics is a coincedence."

[geek tragedy]

151. When they do actual investigating instead of armchair speculation

based on stuff they read on the net, then I'll take them seriously.

[Minstrel Boy]

157. And your armchair speculation should merit our consideration why?

This thread is supposedly about a book which two scholars have spent nearly two years investigating - they've visited the crime scene, interviewed witnesses and NTSB personnel, and so on - and yet you cavalierly dismiss their work from the comfort of your own armchair without having so much as read it.

[geek tragedy]

163. Fetzer is a nut.

And this EMP stuff his pure tinfoil. Jesus Christ, and Kennedy assassination buffs make fun of the "magic bullet."

All these people do is take holes in official investigations (which always exist--this is not a laboratory experiment or math equation) and fill in the blanks with their fantasies.

[Minstrel Boy]

166. I take it, then, you believe at least in character assassination.

:eyes:

[geek tragedy]

167. He could be a very nice guy and real smart to boot.

Doesn't mean he's playing with a full deck.

The guy is a PROFESSIONAL CONSPIRACY THEORIST.

[Minstrel Boy]

169. And since he's a researcher of government conspiracy,

he must be, therefore, a "nut." Because you say there's no such thing.

Welcome to your circular logic.

[geek tragedy]

171. The guy tries to cast everything as a conspiracy theory.

Theories in search of proof are just quackery.

His work on this is also crap--I read his columns. Nothing but idle speculation.

He knows nothing about airplanes. He is not a relevant authority on the subject.

Just like people who have no background in science are not relevant authorities regarding the whole Pentagon Missile garbage.

Btw, he pushes the "no plane hit the Pentagon" garbage on his website. Believing in that crap is per se proof for me that someone is simply nuts and is not of sound mind.

It gets even better--he thought Bali was a MICRONUKE!

http://www.assassinationscience.com/balilinks.html

What a fucking joke. Of course, the crap he links to includes stuff authored by evil insane mongerer Joe Vialls.

[stickdog]

180. You offer a page of LINKS to prove the man is insane?

Why not demonstrate his deficiencies by attacking HIS OWN WRITING? You obviously know where to find MANY EXAMPLES.

The answer is, of course, quite telling.

[geek tragedy]

182. He believes in the Pentagon Missile theory.

That is more than enough.

[stickdog]

195. Does he? Or does he just think the question is legitimate?

Because there's a big difference.

[geek tragedy]

198. The former.

http://www.assassinationscience.com/911links.html

And it's not such a big difference, given that the Pentagon Missile theory is so goddamn stupid it is considered rightwing disinformation by many 9/11 conspiracists.

[stickdog]

204. Taking him at his "word" again, are you?

Once again, a link is not an explicit, unquestioning endorsement. And the photos shown on the page you linked are certainly interesting, to say the least. Wouldn't you agree?

Like I've said many times on this thread, there are DOZENS of Fetzer's personal articles on that site -- including about a dozen discussing the Wellstone crash. If you want to prove the man looney, isn't that where you should start?

[geek tragedy]

206. As I've said,

the man links to bigoted loons and HOLOCAUST DENIERS in his 9/11 section.

No sane and credible person links to Holocaust deniers from his website.

By including such articles in his 9/11 section, he is implicitly endorsing them.



He links directly to an article that says the following:

"And when the world's media feigns hysteria about Iraq being a menace to its neighbors " at the same time when not far away Israel is perpetrating one of the great genocides in human history, the erasing of the entire nation of Palestine, and because most newspapers are owned by Jews, no one is saying a word " it makes me want to ... well, you know."

The article is written by Nazi bigot puke fuckface John Kaminski.

My philosophy is "you link to it, you're responsible for it."


Here's his 9/11 spiel:

http://www.assassinationscience.com/911_an_Inside_Job.pdf

The reasoning contained therein is absolutely hideous and shows a blatant disregard for the scientific method. An utter disgrace.

[MadHound]

177. Then I suggest you pay attention then friend,

For there are many people out there doing a great deal of "actual investigating" on both the Wellstone incident and 911. Not armchair speculation, not reading stuff off the net(though many are publishing on the net, due to the MSM's unwillingness to publish supposed "conspiracists"{shades of JFK assasination}) And guess what? There are many many discrepancies regarding both incidents.

And these aren't just "professional conspiracy theorists". Many are quite expert in their own fields, architecture, engineering, airplane pilots and mechanics, etc. etc. Much expertise has been brought to bear on these issues, yet you poo-poo it all. So what is your expertise that allows you to judge all such issues as being tin foil? What have you done besides acting as a keyboard character assasian? What effort have you put in to prove whether or not these people are correct? Oh, yeah, that's right, you simply spew crap onto an internet chat board and expect all of us to accept it as gospel:eyes:

So I'll ask you friend, why should I believe you, who are simply posting stuff on the net, with NOTHING to back yourself up?

[geek tragedy]

183. Please provide a link to aviation experts who support the assassination

theory.

I rely upon people who know what they're talking about. Like the NTSB and the engineers who studied the after-effects of 9/11.

[MadHound]

186. Ah yes, "people who know what they're talking about", much like

Those who formulated the magic bullet theory for the Warren Report. And we all know how well those "experts" did:eyes:

Once again I'll ask you, what do you have to back your happy ass up besides spin and blather? Just more of the same ol' same ol' is my guess.

[geek tragedy]

187. Besides the NTSB report?

That's 100 times more than you've got. Not to mention the pilots here who have also stated that your theory is a bunch of crap.

But, then again, you are an anonymous internet poster, so I should accept your word over the NTSB and every other aviation expert or pilot I've heard on the subject, including those who post at DU.

So, in short, I am supplying simple logic: Those who have technical expertise and no ideological agenda should be believed over those with no technical expertise and are driven by an ideological agenda.

[MadHound]

190. LOL you are so unintentionally funny friend

I have posted no "theory" on either the Wellstone crash, or 911. I'm simply calling you out over your repeatitive abuse of other posters, while having nothing to back yourself up with. The NTSB report does little to disprove the books claims, and in fact, it brings up more questions than it answers.

Once again we are being fed gobs of shit, and here you are saying "Thank you sir, may I have another". LOL, good luck with that friend, let me know how that non-questioning mind-set works out.

[geek tragedy]

191. The abuse flows both ways--

or did you not catch the part where I was called a Nazi?

I can only assume that you are relying upon your vast aviation expertise in trashing the NTSB and referring to it as "gobs of shit."

Is the NTSB in on the conspiracy, or are they just ignorant on aviation matters?

[Eloriel]

193. Complicit in a cover-up isn't being "in" on a conspiracy

And when their jobs depend on not doing much of an investigation, they won't DO much of an investigation. The NTSB report says virtually nothing, so it's a little silly for you to hold it up as some "proof" of anything OTHER than the fact that it says virtually nothing.

[geek tragedy]

196. Actually, being complicit in a cover-up is being part of a conspiracy.

What did you expect from the NTSB report--with no black box recordings? As another poster who actually flies noted, small plane crashes aren't that uncommon, and very often the NTSB can only offer its educated opinion on what happened, based on their expertise and the limited physical evidence. When there is no evidence of mechanical failure, this is especially the case.

It is not ironclad proof--that is impossible in cases involving pilot error--think about it.

But, when the accounts of the NTSB and every other aviation expert/pilot who has opined on the subject line up fairly uniformly, that is entitled to a degree of deference.

The NTSB certainly has more credibility on the subject than Professor Crackpot.

[MadHound]

197. I'm speaking in generalities, not specifics friend

If you notice, I'm talking about the Wellstone death AND 911.

And quite frankly, after having read this post, I can't feel too terribly sorry for you. You have berated and belittled anybody with any viewpoint different from your own, launching baseless, ad hominem attacks far and wide. Perhaps if you were a little more civil, with something to prove your point besides your own hot air, ie, links, transcripts,etc., people wouldn't treat you like a pariah. You hold out the NTSB like a talisman, yet as I've said before, it raises more questions than it anwers. Do you have anything to answer those questions? And do you just think that you can drown out the questions with your own brand of vitriole?

As I've said earlier, you remind me of those people who shouted down those who doubted the Warren Report. Long on insult and blather, short on sources and answers. Well, don't be suprised if once again you are proven wrong. Of course by then, you'l have moved on to screaming about something else.

[geek tragedy]

199. Actually, the charges of lying, being a totalitarian, and extreme anger

are due to contradicting sacred cows like the Wellstone assassination.

The Wellstone theories are nothing more than attempts to "debunk" the official version. So, there should be no objections when those attempts to debunk are in turn debunked.

[MadHound]

201. Then do as you ask others to do

BACK YOURSELF UP WITH SOMETHING!!!

The NTSB report you keep repeating like a mantra is a whitewash, and if you had been paying attention, you would see that. Instead you keep repeating "NTSB, NTSB" ad nauseum as if that answers all questions, ties up all the loose ends. Get a clue friend, IT DOESN'T!

So then, it is up to you to go out and find other credible sources and back up your opinions with them. Simply repeating one source and ad hominem attacks won't fill the bill. That is how the give and take of debate works, and if you continue to respond in the manner that you have in this thread, you will be dismissed as a dupe and a fool.

[geek tragedy]

205. There are always going to be loose ends in small plane crashes.

Especially if it is due to pilot error. There is no physical evidence of pilot error. You can't check a fuselage or wheel for pilot error.

All you can do is look at what you know happened and figure out the most plausible explanation.

Pilot error is something that happens all of the time, and it is very plausible under these circumstances. That is a fact because the pilots and aviation experts who have looked at the evidence found it to be plausible.

Let's put it this way: Imagine that there is a jury trial on the subject. The NTSB's report would be admitted as evidence. Aviation experts and probably pilots would be allowed to testify to offer their opinions as evidence.

Fetzer would not be allowed to testify because he's not qualified to offer insight into the subject. All one would have to argue for the assassination theory is the business about garage doors and cell phones--nonsense. There is no foundation for the EMP theory. None.

In other words, all of the credible evidence in this case points in one direction. That IS my argument.

[stickdog]

213. How about the NTSB guy who conceded that they have no idea

what actually caused the crash? Would his testimony be admitted?

How did two pilots manage to forget to engage autopilot in overcast instrument conditions, ignore the CDI needle for a full two minutes, slow more than 60 mph below the recommended approach speed, ignore the stall warning horn, and never even attempt a stall recovery or a go around or to radio a distress message?

The NTSB report doesn't even ATTEMPT to explain how this egregious level of pilot incompetence could have possibly taken place. We are talking about a level of pilot incompetence that is indistinguishable from pilot incapacitation.

[geek tragedy]

214. According to you.

The pilots and aviation experts disagree with you. So, what we have is a question of whose judgment and opinion holds more water. They find this level of pilot error believable, and they know much more about airplanes, flying, piloting, and any other relevant areas of expertise than you.

So, the rational course is to reject your opinion and accept theirs.

[stickdog]

216. If it's a believable level of error, why couldn't they recreate the crash

conditions in any simulation -- even those that they tested in far worse conditions than existed at the time of the crash?

And please share with me all the quotes from the experts saying that this level of incompetence was credible.

http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2003/03/03_zdechlikm_wellstone/

At the time Rivera was a captain for Aviation Charter. He now works for Japan Airlines.

Rivera says he doesn't recall whether he used the King Air's deicing equipment on its second to last trip. He does remember though there were no maintenance concerns related to the plane.

"I flew it a couple of times that week and there were no problems with the airplane at all and I know that it had flown quite a bit up to that date and when we check in for a flight we always look in the logbook to look at previous write-ups on the airline just so that we're familiar with anything that may have been occurring repeatedly or something that another pilot had experienced within the last few flights so we can be vigilant and look for that problem again and there was nothing to that effect," Rivera says.

Rivera, who's worked as a commercial pilot instructor, says it's incomprehensible to him the plane was flying so slowly. The NTSB had reported that the last radar check clocked the plane at 85 knots. Rivera suspects that neither pilot was watching the instruments, in particular the airspeed indicator.

"It's hard for anybody who's flown before to understand that a pilot would let their airplane get that slow -- probably 40 knots too slow -- on an approach because at 85 knots that airplane is probably barely flying really," Rivera says.

...

"When there's two pilots and apparently everything working on the airplane... I mean this aircraft will fly very well on one engine. It's got two sets of instruments. There's no explanation for it other than neither of them were flying the airplane. Nobody was looking at what was going on with the airplane."

[geek tragedy]

218. Umm, everyone who says it was pilot error.

And the Wellstone family itself has taken the position that there is "NO CREDIBLE EVIDENCE" supporting conspiracy theories.

[stickdog]

219. What evidence are you using to differentiate between pilot error and

pilot incapacitation?

Just wondering ...

Once again, I don't remember espousing any conspiracy theories. My theory is pilot incapacitation. That may or may not imply foul play. And foul play may or may not imply a conspiracy. And a conspiracy may or may not imply anyone associated with any government.

Furthermore, none of the NTSB reports include any evidence that can differentiate between the egregious level of pilot incompetence they guessed was the most likely cause and pilot incapacitation.

[geek tragedy]

222. To a certain extent, it is impossible to distinguish.

Incapacitation seems very unlikely though. Impossible to disprove, however.

[Pallas180]

60. Gee that's funny. I always thought "if it walks like a duck & quacks like

a duck, it MIGHT be a duck...

but now I know that that's just a conspiracy theory.

[geek tragedy]

72. It looks like an accident, and quacks like an accident.

Therefore, I perceive it to be an accident.

[stickdog]

81. What caused this accident, in your opinion? (nt)

[geek tragedy]

88. Pilot error. n/t

[stickdog]

101. So give us your narrative explanation, then.

How did two pilots manage to forget to engage autopilot in overcast instrument conditions, ignore the CDI needle for a full two minutes, slow more than 60 mph below the recommended approach speed, ignore the stall warning horn, and never even attempt a stall recovery or a go around or to radio a distress message?

[geek tragedy]

103. I'm not an aviation expert, and neither are any of the folks here

screaming "murder!" For us to debate the point is utterly futile.

What the NTSB says sounds very reasonable, and they're the ones with the expertise and access to all of the information.

So, given a choice between acknowledged experts and random, anonymous internet personae with absolutely no expertise, it's a no-brainer.

[stickdog]

105. The NTSB report didn't even ATTEMPT to answer this critical question.

And if you'd ever taken the time to read it, you'd have known this already.

So how did two pilots manage to forget to engage autopilot in overcast instrument conditions, ignore the CDI needle for a full two minutes, slow more than 60 mph below the recommended approach speed, ignore the stall warning horn, and never even attempt a stall recovery or a go around or to radio a distress message?

Come on. We're waiting ...

[geek tragedy]

109. Sigh. Do you read anything?

http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2003/11/18_zdechlikm_ntsbreport/

You asked: "So how did two pilots managed to forget to engage autopilot in overcast instrument conditions, ignore the CDI needle for a full two minutes, slow more than 60 mph below the recommended approach speed, ignore the stall warning horn, and never even attempt a stall recovery or a go around or to radio a distress message?"

The NTSB, as quoted by me before, said that: "They said existing "stall" warnings don't activate until well after the airspeed has slipped to those dangerous levels. In this crash, they said, up to 40 seconds elapsed before the pilots were made aware of the situation, too late to allow them to avoid a stall and crash."

People make mistakes. With very poor conditions, a pilot with a spotty flight history and instruments that were not up to snuff, this sort of thing can happen.

Sorry if that's too hard for you to wrap your mind around.

[stickdog]

112. I read you avoiding the question. Again.

What a surprise.

BTW, what made the conditions very poor? (Hint: they weren't.) And what evidence was there that the instruments were "not up to snuff"? (Hint: the last surviving pilots who flew the plane say otherwise.)

[geek tragedy]

116. I answered your question. Are you going to ignore anything that

contradicts your theory? The report said that the pilots made the mistake (remember, human beings make those) of letting air speed fall too low, and that the aircraft's instuments didn't warn them until it was too late to do anything about it.

What part of that can't you understand?

[stickdog]

120. I can't grasp what you said that even attempted to answer the question.

So how did two pilots manage to forget to engage autopilot in overcast instrument conditions, ignore the CDI needle for a full two minutes, slow more than 60 mph below the recommended approach speed, ignore the stall warning horn, and never even attempt a stall recovery or a go around or to radio a distress message?

Come on. Let's have your narrative blow-by-blow explanation for how this happened.

We're waiting ...

[geek tragedy]

124. I don't know jack-shit about planes and aviation, and neither do you.

I am not qualified to second-guess every minor detail of the NTSB report, and neither are you.

They have examined what happened and reached what sounds like a reasonable explanation. An exact reconstruction of the errors of dead pilots, without more flight data, is impossible. The NTSB are aviation experts, not psychics.

If a few paranoid conspiracy nuts refuse to accept that, that's just too fucking bad.

[stickdog]

Second guess? The NTSB report didn't even ATTEMPT a first guess.

Minor detail? Try the most critical and completely unanswered question about the whole event and the very crux of the issue, ace.

But I will agree that you don't know jack-shit.

[geek tragedy]

131. The pilots fucked up, and the NTSB can't tell you exactly why they did

what they did.

Very interesting that you're willing to therefore dismiss that possibility out of hand, but embrace the Vast Conspiracy of Evil Men theory with much less support.

Just admit that you're in this for your own entertainment and diversion instead of a quest for the truth.

Anyway, welcome to "Ignore."

[stickdog]

149. More interesting is YOU won't even TRY to answer the critical question.

Yet you blithely contend that the resulting void explains all, and you rush to judge me as an accursed "conspiracy theorist" simply because I disagree.

[Minstrel Boy]

84. re: quacking accidents, from the declassified how-to CIA guide

"A Study of Assassination"

Accidents:

For secret assassination, either simple or chase, the contrived accident is the most effective technique. When successfully executed, it causes little excitement and is only casually investigated.

[geek tragedy]

89. So, if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck.

And if it looks like a goose, and honks like a goose, it also must be a duck?

[Minstrel Boy]

126. The CIA thanks you for your untroubled mind.

[geek tragedy]

135. Not untroubled,

but also not willing to embrace every conspiracy theory that comes down the road. There is a difference, though many here fail to grasp that.

[Minstrel Boy]

138. Then here's to your CIA-approved conventional wisdom,

and a thank-you for your yeoman's effort keeping this thread on the front page.

[bobbyboucher]

67. It's more like "Those that cry conspiracy THEORY at

every turn have no credibility". It is obvious.

[geek tragedy]

73. Not at every turn--

just at the turns where the theories are on their face utterly absurd.

When people are accusing the Wellstone family of extorting money from people they don't feel are responsible for the crash, you've crossed a line.

[bobbyboucher]

161. What a conspiracy theory.

See how it works?

[tom_paine]

75. Conspiracy theories like:

Watergate
Iran-Contra
Enron's rape of California
COINTELPRO
Tuskeegee Experiment
Horst Wessel and his Song
Reeichstag fire
The assassination of Benino Aquino
Pinochet's atrocities

It's funny, at EACH of these instances, people like you did their usual blanket smears against "conspiracy theorists".

(I guess we can all be thankful we aren't criticizing the Reichstag Fire, because people like YOU back then were much more violent in their "emphantic denunciations")

(sorry, I tailed off into non-Amerikan Tyrants like the Busheviks)

Political assassination by oppsition has occurred in EVERY NATION since the history of humans began.

We are to asssume that this nation is different than every other that has come before it?

But you are correct. Not only did Watergate never happen but by 2100, that will be a reality using Soviet-style hiostorical revisionism with our uniquely Amerikan flavor (turn on CNN to understand)

Nor Iran-Conmtra. The Reichstag Fire was started by Communists.

And Horst Wessel was killed bravely defending the Party from those same Communists, NOT in a common barfight.

People never change, do they? Walking right into it, as always. Willing participants in Tyranny throuhgactive particpation and head-in-the-sand-ism.

[geek tragedy]

76. Save the "people who don't believe my theories are Nazis" garbage

for the cesspool at the bottom of DU. Requiring actual proof, evidence, logic, and credibility is the mark of a progressive society, whereas irrational vitriol and faith-based belief systems are much more akin to what is practiced in "Clinton Killed Foster" land.

Good day, and good luck in getting help.

[tom_paine]

79. No, not a Nazi. Something very similar with different basic philosophy

You are correct, in fact, that "Requiring actual proof, evidence, logic, and credibility is the mark of a progressive society."

Absolutely correct.

However, what happens when a nation, at all levels, descends into corruption and slavish ignorance. When the mecvhanisms which protect the "Progressive Society" break down (as they did in Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union and Marcos' Phillipines, turning to corrupted unbelievable lie machines?

Well, for one thing, people like you, of the Totalitarian, not Nazi mindset (unless of course you are getting into street fights with Communists and burning down synagogues)

Of course you completely IGNORED the list of conspiracy theories that became FACT because people like you, of the Totalitaran Slavish Mindset, were NOT heeded.

Of course you did. What else could you do but attack me personally?

Like so many others. Like the Germans Russian and Romans before you, the magintude of the shift to Kremilnology and kleptocracy for democracy and small 'r' republican politics will become clear, even at your level.

Evetually Totalitarians desire to control every aspect of a society. You still believe we live in a Progressive Society?

LOL, looks like someone needs help here and it's not me.

I also noticed you failed to answer why Amerika is different in that NEVER has an oppostion-driven assassination occurrred when it has in EVERY nation since human history bgan.

Of course you couldn't. I imagine there were many in Germany like you, not Nazis, just people incapable of conceiving that what was happening was happening.

So you smear and strike back. I undersatand. It's sad, and what else could you do?

The American Republic will NEVER end.

Like the Roman Republic.

Like the Soviet Union.

All nations die eventually. It is our misfortune to live at the peak and the transition period from Republic to Empire.

Good luck in meeting the futrue so unprepared. Liekyl the final shift to full "Farenheit 451" Totalitarianism will escape you "because it is not possible".

Good Germans don't change much over the years, do they?

[geek tragedy]

87. I love it when people accuse others of being fascists/Nazis/totalitarians

and then whine about personal attacks. Who says that irony is lost upon those "touched by the hand of God?"


I myself will channel outrage towards outrageous conspiracy theories such as those that allege this administration lied to get the nation involved in a war that runs against its interest, have conspired to help their rich friends profit from the same war, have used the legal system in an attempt to impose a proto-fascist form of government on the US, and that large sums of private right-wing wealth have been channeled to corrupt and intimidate the free press of this country.

[tom_paine]

118. No, I accused you of being a head-in-the-sand Good German

Not a Totalitarian, per se, but those who throughout history have underestimated the Totalitarians when they finally DID show up and then contributed to the head-in-the-sand-ism that ultimately allows Totalitarianism to fully take root.

I understand that you don't understand or that your ego will not allow you to undrstand.

Of course, your comment "(Busheviks) have used the legal system in an attempt to impose a proto-fascist form of government on the US"

because as we all know proto-fascist governments NEVER utilize political assassination as a tool.

Nope. Never.

[geek tragedy]

128. You can't even keep track of your own insults.

You said: "No, not a Nazi. Something very similar with different basic philosophy" and "well, for one thing, people like you, of the Totalitarian, not Nazi mindset (unless of course you are getting into street fights with Communists and burning down synagogues)."

If you cannot appreciate the irony and indeed hilarity of offering these comments and then pouting about personal attacks, you are beyond help.


And, my position is not that such conspiracies are impossible by definition, only that I require a prima facie amount of evidence before I'm willing to entertain them.

[tom_paine]

140. Sorry if you find a matter of fact characterization insulting

I cannot help that.

And I did incorrectly call you a Totalitarian, which is a curiosu misnomer, when indeed you are more of that slavish Good German who allows Totalitarianism to come into being because you cannot recognize when your progressive desire for evidence and Rule of Law is being used against you.

Much the way the Nazis did the same, flouting rules and laws as if they didn't exists, then daring people to consider the possibility that they didn't give a shit about laws at all except save that of the jungle

(or Bushevik philosopher Leo Strauss, to update for the modern age)

And of course, your consistent replies, short and saying absolutely nothing nor answering my points about previous "conspiracy theories) which turned out to be fact.

What must that be like? To throw the sneering one-liner saying little to nothing?

It's a shame because it is quite an effective smear technique.

Awaiting with breathless anticipation, the snext sneering one-liner.

Oh, and don't forget the sideways personal attacks.

That you resemble a German dismissing conspiracy theories about the Reichstag Fire is indisputable.

But of copurse, there is no direct evidence the Nazis burned down the Reichstag, or are you taking consensus without evidence as proof?

I bet you are.

Did the Nazis burn down the Reichstag?

I bet you don't answer, or substitute with another short smear saying nothing.

[geek tragedy]

141. I have no trouble believing that the Nazis burned the Reichstag.

Given the fact that they imposed dictatorship and massacred millions, I suspect they did. Though, in the long run, whether they burned it themselves or whether they merely exploited it isn't, in the measure of history, particularly important.

However, the burning of a building in pre-war Germany and the conducting of a terrorist operation like 9/11 are leagues apart in terms of logistical and operational complexity. Much easier to burn the Reichstag, while government participation in 9/11 would require thousands of participants.

Given how badly this administration has bungled Iraq (and this bungling will effectively thwart their dreams of invading Iran), I have no doubt that they lacked the ability to pull this off. While these buffoons have the frightening ideology, in a manner somewhat similar to past fascists, they lack the competence of the Germans or even Mussolini, who at least had the trains running on time. Ideology without competence is my perception of this administration.

[tom_paine]

146. A pretty conceit for which you have no evidence

Displaying the double-standard I would expect.

Of course you have no problem believing the Nazis burned the Reichstag.

Everyone does. It's common knowledge, so to speak, and therefore 'safe'.

But there is the same amount of evidence the Nazis burned the Reichstag as there is they ordered the assassination of Wellstone (likely carried out by intermediates like the Colombians who tried to assassinate Wellstone once before--notice I said likely)

http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/americas/12/01/colombia.wellstone/

None. Zip. Zilcho.

So, for all your professed ironclad adherence to the rules of reason and evidence, you aren't above grasping at the Straws of Conspiracy Theories...provided they are safe ones everybody believes.

Thnak you for you honesty, that was lovely and illustrative.

Also, I didn't mention 9/11, but it does make a convenient Straw Man.

I also assume that you don't believe that Bin Laden did 9/11, since you mention it, since we have never seen an iota or stitch of evidence that it was him.

Colon Foul promised us a white paper a la the Cuban Missle Crisis showing the veidence.

But of course it never came so we have no direct empirical evidence (that we have been shown...even in redacted form) that Bin Laden orchestrated 9/11.

So, I wonder, do you still believe that anybody could be responsible for 9/11 in the absence of hard evidence, or does your ironclad need for hard evidence before belief (admirable, actually, and if Amerika was still a Free Country with a Free Press it would definitely be the way to go) extend to the mysterious whiter paper that never materialized, even after 3+ years?

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Toronto/Eric_Margolis/2004/07/25/556378.html

Please answer without the smears again. You can speak well, logically and your only misfortune is to be born in a time of transition from Reason to Orwellian Totalitarian Madness and Nazi/Soviet-level lies while being slow to recognize the magnitude of the change.

[geek tragedy]

147. We differ on an empirical point.

You perceive all government institutions as already having been taken over by a totalitarian regime, whereas I think that most government insitutions are still legitimate, though severely flawed, but that proto-fascists are beginning to try to take them over.

Therefore, I tend to believe the NTSB when they attribute it to pilot error, whereas I do not believe the Nazis when they blamed it on their enemies. I also do weigh the Wellstone family's silence in this--I simply cannot imagine the family of that great firebrand for justice keeping silent if they thought he was murdered. They would risk their lives if they thought there was such a monstrous scheme in place. Wellstone and his clan are the kind of people who made this nation great. They would not have ran away from the Redcoats, and they would not cower in fear of Bushco now.

I do think the evidence that AQ was involved is overwhelming--the video, the prosecutions throughout Europe, the fact that OBL and AQ had declared war on the US and their pattern of escalating violence leading up to 9/11. To say there is no evidence of his involvement is just not accurate.

[tom_paine]

148. But still, no evidence. Rationalize it all you wish.

No evidence.

You are using previous events to rationalize your belief in that which you have no evidence for.

Just like the people who believe that Wellstone was LIKELY assassinated.

Except your own rationalizations sound sweet to your ears whereas the rationalizations of those who you don't agree with are utterly and immediately dismissed with a snide comment.

The video was a joke, the guy didn't even look like Osama. And since when is a previous conviction/prosecution EVIDENCE of another wholly seperate event?

But aside from the specifics, you have deftly illustrated your hypocrisy. YOUR rationales in the absence of evidence are perfectly reasonable. Others who use the same tactic are Conspiracy Nutjobs.

That's ok. To be human is to be a hypocrite, we can only try and mitigate the frequency and severity of the time we spend in hypocrisy.

Mayphaps you should turn your attention to that mission.

[geek tragedy]

150. I would consider this evidence

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002-08-29-al-qaeda-clues_x.htm

Again, it's a question of institutional confidence/corruption.

[Sophree]

134. I was thinking the same thing, tom.

"because as we all know proto-fascist governments NEVER utilize political assassination as a tool."

[geek tragedy]

154. The point is not that Bush is above such practice or that it couldn't

happen here.

Rather, it is that the facts just don't support the assassination theory. They just don't. When people start peddling sci-fi theories like holograms or EMP's, it's a sign of desperation.

[Minstrel Boy]

162. It's a sign of desperation

to call EMP "sci fi theory."

It doesn't take much Googling. Try it, why doncha.

US vulnerable to EMP attack
Jane's, July 2004

While the US military has grown increasingly dependent on computers, electronics and information systems, it has relaxed requirements for EMP-hardened systems since the end of the Cold War and its overall record of adherence to its guidelines for such robust equipment "has been spotty", they said. This trend continues "in the wrong direction", the panel noted.

Similarly, the US civilian critical infrastructure is not adequately prepared to deal with the effects of an EMP attack, according to the panel, which is known formally as the Commission to Assess the Threat to the United States from Electromagnetic Pulse Attack. Congress created the panel in 2000 out of concern that this issue was not receiving enough attention.

http://www.janes.com/defence/news/jdw/jdw040726_1_n.shtml


Police test hi-tech zapper that could end car chases
The Guardian, July 12, 2004

A hi-tech device that can bring speeding cars to a halt at the flick of a switch is set to become the latest weapon in the fight against crime.

Police forces in Britain and the US have ordered tests of the new system that delivers a blast of radio waves powerful enough to knock out vital engine electronics, making the targeted vehicle stall and slowly come to a stop.

...

The bulk of the device is designed to fit in a car boot and consists of a battery and a bank of capacitors that can store an electrical charge. Flicking a switch on the dashboard sends a burst of electricity into an antenna mounted on the roof of the car. The antenna then produces a narrow beam of intense radio waves that is directed at the vehicle ahead.

When the radio waves hit the targeted car, they induce surges of electricity in its electronics, upsetting the fuel injection and engine firing signals. "It works on most cars built in the past 10 years, because their engines are controlled by computer chips," said Dr Giri. "If we can disrupt the computer, we can stop the car." A prototype is due to be ready by next summer.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/news/story/0,12976,1259139,00.html

Also see this year's Report of the Commission to Assess the Threat to the United States from Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) Attack:
http://www.house.gov/hasc/openingstatementsandpressreleases/108thcongress/04-07-22emp.pdf

[geek tragedy]

165. Of course this is all WILD SPECULATION

As to the existence of such a weapon in a form that could knock a plane out of the sky, let alone any proof that such a weapon was actually used. Cell phones cutting out in northern Minnesota? Oh, that NEVER happens ordinarily.

People with aviation expertise are all saying it's likely that this was pilot error, and that they likely didn't have time to pull out.

When actual aviation experts sign off on this stuff, then I'll pay attention.

Bottom line: No one qualified to make a judgment is siding with the Tinfoil Hat Brigade.

Edited to add link:

http://www.soci.niu.edu/~crypt/other/kooks.htm

[Minstrel Boy]

168. "When actual aviation experts sign off on this stuff,

then I'll pay attention."

I seriously doubt that. Because anyone who "signs off on this stuff" must be, in your estimation, a "nut."

Your mental screen which guards your worldview against admitting the possibility of such high criminality will keep your reasoning nice and circular.

[geek tragedy]

170. Well, kind of a moot point

since the people pushing this crap are both loonies and completely lacking in relevant knowledge and expertise.

As I said, I'll side with the people who actually know stuff about airplanes. I'm a sucker for people who know what they're talking about.

[Minstrel Boy]

173. I'll leave you to your catcalls of "nuts" and "loonies."

Since I hear nothing more from you, I have nothing more to say to you.

[geek tragedy]

174. Here's his page on Bali

He links to people who claim that it was a mininuke deployed by--you guessed it.

Drum roll please.

ZIONISTS!

Insane crap. Contemptible idiocy.

http://www.assassinationscience.com/balilinks.html

Here's another link to Joe Vialls from him:

http://www.assassinationscience.com/When_is_Saddam_not_Saddam.pdf

[stickdog]

178. OH MY GOD, a Bali links page with some questionable links!

I agree that the mini-nuke article is full of shit. I don't agree that a throwing together a links page that links to questionable article proves that everything somebody personally writes about ANOTHER subject is dubious.

But that's just me.

[geek tragedy]

181. The guy is a science professor who finds reports of

nuclear explosions without radiation credible. He also believes in the cruise missile theory of the Pentagon. He knows nothing about aviation.

He thought the space shuttle was shot down by an EMP. Despite the overwhelming, and common sense, evidence to the contrary.


He is not a credible source on this. He lacks judgment, common sense, and relevant knowledge.

[stickdog]

194. No, he's a philosophy professor who thinks others are adult enough

to evaluate the merits of the pages he links on their own. A link is not an unquestioning, uncritical endorsement.

If you want to critique this man's work, fire away. You certainly know where to find it. Other than an unnecessary fascination with the latest and greatest high tech weapon acronyms, I find the professor's many articles on Wellstone's crash to be completely credible.

If you have any specific objections to these articles that you'd like to discuss, please list them here.

[geek tragedy]

203. The man relies on sources like Joe Vialls.

Anyone who finds Joe Vialls' accounts "compelling" has extremely poor judgment and a weak grasp on reality. He failed to investigate his own sources--which is a sign of laziness, sloppiness, and would be misconduct if he used it in his academic work.

His theory on Wellstone hinges on the dismissal of pilot error. The NTSB, aviation experts, and actual pilots are a million times more qualified to judge the likelihood of pilot error than Fetzer. His argument for it not being pilot error are very, very weak.

[DemonFighterLives]

241. Wow Geek

I have been reading this thread and you must have a belly full of Koolaid. NTSB is the final word and testament.. Osama's phony video is proof of him being the perp.. EMP is sci fi blah blah.

What are you trying to do here?

I don't know the Wellstone's personally, but I don't believe that they would totally discount any thing that comes to bare on their parents deaths.

[Corgigal]

74. I would love to read some of those articles/links

If you could PM me with any info I would appreciate it.

As a former ATC'er (USAF) can I say I also agree with some type of electronic inference. This technology has been around for years.
Did you know before TWA 800 crashed that other pilots on commercial carriers were complaining about the war games played in Long Island Sound?




http://www.nybooks.com/articles/13898

[seventhson]

48. I think baloney aptly describes this perspective

I know you have NO link to say the family is convinced it was an accident. The family. I believe, is still unsure or some of them believe it was murder.

Prove me wrong.

[geek tragedy]

55. Here's your link: You have been owned.

http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2003/08/28_zdechlikm_wellstonesettle/

"The family of the late Sen. Paul Wellstone and five other passengers killed in last year's plane crash have reached a $25 million insurance settlement with the air charter company that operated the flight. The law firm which brought the suit announced the settlement Thursday, 10 months after the crash killed Wellstone, his wife and daughter, three campaign aides and two pilots. But this settlement does not necessarily mean an end to the legal action.

Minneapolis, Minn. — In a written statement, the law firm said the deaths of the Wellstones and the others were unnecessary. The law firm says pilots' failure to maintain appropriate power and airspeed caused the crash.

The three-page statement blames the lack of flight crew competence on negligent hiring, supervision and training on the part of Eden Prairie-based Aviation Charter, which operated the flight."

"The estates of pilots Richard Conry and Micheal Guess are not beneficiaries of the settlement. Conry was the pilot, and Guess was second in command during the flight.

Attorney Mike Padden, who represents Guess's family, says he plans to to file a wrongful death lawsuit against the estate of Capt. Richard Conry. Padden says that lawsuit will eventually seek damages from Aviation Charter.

Padden says all of the evidence released thus far indicates Conry was flying when the plane went down.

He says Robins, Kaplan, Miller and Ciresi unfairly and wrongly implicated Guess in its assessment of blame.

"There's no question in my mind, when the evidence plays out in this case, the determination of any fact-finding will be that not only was Richard Conry the individal who operated the aircraft, but his actions are the reason that this tragedy occurred -- period," says Padden."

So, you have multiple families alleging that this was an accident.

Now, if you want to say that they're lying just to get rich, you can go right ahead and make that argument, but . . .

I shudder to think about what else you "know."

[seventhson]

58. You are mixing apples and oranges - this was a lawsuit settlement

The family did NOT make a statement saying the possibility of murder was rejected. They accepted a settlement of the case which means there is NO spevcific finding on causation. No trial. No legal conclusions. Nothing definitive on what happened.

Just an insurance claim settlement that says more about the insurance company than the family.

Puh-LEAZE! Try a little hrader.

Find a statement by his sons saying this was NOT murder.

It ain't there.

[geek tragedy]

68. So, you're saying Wellstone's family extorted money from others

without believing they were actually responsible? That they were willing to engage lawyers to go after innocent parties but not willing to do anything about what they think really happened?

That's an outrageous slur.

And if you had any idea of how the legal system works, you would know that insurance companies don't pay out unless they're threatened with a lawsuit.

Sorry, you're demonstrating a classic irrational attachment to your conspiracy theory, and are rejecting solid evidence and logic to maintain your irrational position.

Thanks for making my point for me.

[stickdog]

85. Settlement = extortion? You are sick, geek.

This settlement was made for the other dead passengers' sake, not the Wellstones.

And, like most settlements, it was nothing more than a calculated negotiation. Conroy's inaccurate flying record alone made Aviation Methods partially culpable, regardless of who or what was ultimately responsible for the crash. And that's why Aviation Methods settled for the full amount of their insurance, even though I doubt that they felt fully culpable.

[geek tragedy]

93. This settlement was made for the other dead passengers' sake,

not the Wellstones."

You know, when you can't even get the basic facts right when they're right in front of your face. "The family of the late Sen. Paul Wellstone and five other passengers killed in last year's plane crash have reached a $25 million insurance settlement with the air charter company that operated the flight." It helps if you actually, you know, read.

The basic point is this: The Wellstone family is on record as saying that they blame pilot error and other forms of negligence for the deaths of their loved ones. They have not blamed the Vast Conspiracy of Evil Men nor have they demanded a criminal investigation.

Now, I take them at their words. The conspiracy theorists here don't.

[stickdog]

96. The basic point is that you are insulting Wellstone's family to make a

bullshit "point" in a dubious argument.

Knock it off.

[geek tragedy]

100. I'm not insulting them at all--pay attention.

Me: This was an accident caused by pilot error and other forms of negligence.

Wellstone family: This was an accident caused by pilot error and other forms of negligence.

You: The Wellstone family isn't telling us what they really think.

The insults are coming from the Tinfoil fashionistas.

[stickdog]

106. You don't know shit about the Wellstone family so stop lying about them.

Seriously. It's demeaning.

[geek tragedy]

111. How am I lying about them?

I'm taking them at their word.

[stickdog]

113. What word? Where is the quote that says, "We have no questions about

this crash"?

Please find it for us before you appoint yourself their psychic spokesperson.

[geek tragedy]

115. You have annointed yourself as their psychic spokesperson,

so maybe that's why you're so pissed--Conspiracy Theorists get quite jealous of such turf.

They have publicly blamed the carrier and the pilots in pursuit of a very significant sum of money.

They have said nothing about your Vast Conspiracy of Evil Men.

And that "they didn't say it wasn't the government" line of argument is pure crap. They haven't denied that the moon is made of green cheese or that storks deliver babies, but I'm going to assume that they reject those theories.

[stickdog]

125. I'm pissed because you're putting words in their mouth. I'm not.

I'm merely pointing out why your "reasoning" is both insulting and 100% full of shit.

And I haven't once espoused a "conspiracy theory" of any kind on this thread -- if you hadn't noticed -- so your vain attempts at slurring me using this brush are equally full of shit.

[geek tragedy]

132. One final discrediting of your bizarre reasoning, and then I'm done with

you.

You said: "They've kept a low profile on this issue for a reason." Oh really. My explanation is that they don't believe it. What's yours?

You also said: "The fact that the Wellstones accepted Aviation Methods' settlement so the families of the others who died on the flight would get better deals than they would have otherwise"

You consider this a fact. Why, Miss Cleo?

Again, I reject you and your fiction. I have made no derogatory or false claims about the Wellstone family, and have been much more concerned for the truth than your paranoid ramblings.

Have a nice life--perhaps for an encore I'll go argue with a brick wall.

[stickdog]

153. I have an crazy idea. Why don't you just ask them?

Then you can self-righteously bandy their personal feelings on public message boards whenever and wherever you seek to make your dubious points with at least a modicum of factual backing.

You're right that I'm not 100% certain of motive. But if I made a leap of logic by imputing an altruistic motive for this suit, what do you call what you did in accusing any Wellstone who might harbor remaining questions about the crash of EXTORTION for merely ACCEPTING Aviation Methods' OFFER?

Let me amend my statement to "The families of the others who died on the flight almost certainly received higher settlement amounts through the combined suit than they would have received otherwise."

Do you still disagree? And if so, do you know anything at all about this subject?

[geek tragedy]

192. That is a crazy idea--I'm not going to bother them with this.

Grief is a private matter.

Legally, there is no reason why the Wellstone family's participation would increase the total available to the other families. However, the threat of publicity could have played an intimidation factor.

However, that begs the question of what those families think.

[stickdog]

202. You obviously don't understand the legal basis that is generally used

to determine the size of wrongful death awards.

The adamance of your ignorance is highly amusing.

[geek tragedy]

208. Oh really.

Please educate me. This ought to be funny. I dare you.

[stickdog]

209. Does loss of the victim's anticipated lifetime earnings ring any bells?

Now do you understand why the other passengers would be expected to get a better deal if they combined their suit with a famous Senator?

[geek tragedy]

211. They don't combine them into one big pool.

The Wellstone family got the Wellstones' expected earnings, and the other families would get the expected earnings for their deceased relatives.

Can you comprehend that? I'm only a lawyer who's dealt with the issues dozens of times, though--I'm sure your ignorant and uninformed opinion is actually right.

Care to offer any other foolish statements, or do you want to give up now?


Please offer more--this is really funny. Plus, it's to my advantage when the other person destroys his own credibility.

[stickdog]

215. Wrong. They settled for the full amount of Aviation Methods' insurance

and the Wellstone family took less so the others could get more.

But thanks for insulting the Wellstone family again by ignorantly claiming otherwise. Perhaps you'd like to weigh in on their "disgusting" memorial next?

[geek tragedy]

217. You're making shit up again.

Please limit yourself to facts that exist outside of your imagination.

Your theory is completely bizarre and without any evidence. That=crap.

By the way, check out what the Wellstone's legal spokesman had to say:

http://www.rkmc.com/firm_news.asp?newsId=169

"RKM&C’s investigation determined, at this time, that the crash was caused by pilot error in failing to maintain appropriate power and airspeed. The lack of competence of the crew was a result of, among other things, their negligent hiring, supervision, training and retention. The weather on October 25, 2002, while not optimum, should not have presented a problem to competently trained and supervised pilots. There has been no credible evidence to support any so-called conspiracy theory of the crash.

RKM&C conducted its own investigation and retained experts, who, among other things, analyzed the factual reports of the National Transportation Safety Board ("NTSB"). (The NTSB has issued factual reports but has not yet issued its probable cause determination of the crash.) "

Game, set, and match. Nice playing with you.

[stickdog]

220. Legal truth and empirical truth are often quite different.

Just ask OJ.

http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2003/08/28_zdechlikm_wellstonesettle/

Of the $25 million settlement, $7 million will go to Sen. Wellstone's estate, and $3.25 million will go to Shiela Wellstone's estate. The estate of their daughter, Marcia Wellstone Markuson, will get $3.75 million.

Campaign aid Mary McEvoy's estate will get $4.5 million. The estates of campaign staffers Tom Lapic and Will McLaughlin will each receive $3.25 million.

Hvass says in wrongful death settlements, money is distributed based primarily on victims' future earnings potential.

"The settlement on Sen. Wellstone's case is in line with what we've seen nationally. Sen. John Tower of Texas was killed in a commuter crash a few years ago, and that settlement as I recall was about $5 million. So it's certainly in line with what we'd expect," says Hvass.


So Tower, a Senator, got $5 million and the LEAST any of Wellstone's low level aides got was $3.25 million. And this settlement was clearly POOLED, which you ignorantly disputed.

I contend that Wellstone's aides received more in this settlement than they would have expected to get if the Wellstone family had decided to settle separately. When considering the victims' expected earnings potential, it's quite clear that the Wellstone family came out on the short end of this settlement relative to his low level aides -- who would be expected to earn far, far less over their lifetimes than a famous Senator. What makes you dispute this other than pure querulousness?

[geek tragedy]

223. Senators don't earn that much, and their former staffers often earn more

than they do. And I doubt low level aides were on that plane.

[stickdog]

225. Once again, you show your adamance far exceeds your knowledge.

Both statements you just made are in error.

1) Senators generally earn a shitload more than their aides, both on the side and after they retire. And as the iconic representation of a liberal fighter, Wellstone had a huge and hugely enthusiatic audience for books, articles and speaking engagements.

2) One of the victims on that plane was a college intern for God's sake. So why spout off ignorantly? Force of habit?

[geek tragedy]

227. That payout exceeded Senator Wellstone's likely future earnings

if he remained a senator for life. $7+ million is quite a tidy sum for future earnings.

[stickdog]

232. It's generous compared to the $3.25 million that the college intern got?

Please. You're embarassing yourself.

FACT: Wellstone had the ability to earn more in two speaking engagements than the average college student would expect to earn in a year.

FACT: Wellstone could have gotten more than a million advance on a book any time he wanted.

Meanwhile, the college intern's PARENTS were awarded the more than generous equivalent of a 40 year career paying more than $80,000 a year. So why do you insist on continuing to ignorantly insult the Wellstone family? Can't you bear to think the best of them?

[geek tragedy]

243. What the hell are you talking about?

A college intern can be expected to work 45-50 years. Somewhere between 60-70K. That is more than reasonable, especially when one factors in edcuation, connections, the internship itself, etc.

Compared to Senator Wellstone earning $350,000 over 20 years. Perfectly reasonable.

You're just being insulting because you can't muster a single fact on your side. I shouldn't have taken you off "ignore." Welcome back.

[Pallas180]

61. NO you dont have multiple families alleging, you have lawyers alleging

so that they can collect insurance and fees.

Do you expect the families to say, I believe the government killed my relative ?

The lawyers went after the easiest, most accessible and deepest pockets -

Unless some deep throat came forward the proof can only be the piecing together and connecting of dots.

On Edit - and you know that the families are not alleging, and exactly why the lawyers are alleging pilot error.

So stop the silliness.

[geek tragedy]

69. You too are essentially accusing the families of dishonestly

extorting money from people they don't necessarily believe are responsible for the death of their loved ones.

That is a disgusting allegation, and you should be ashamed.

And don't give me that crap about "it's the lawyers." It's not--it's the lawyers acting upon instructions from the family. Classic conspiracy mongering--ignoring or denying the facts which undermine your position.

I guess some people value their precious conspiracy theories more than they respect the people who have lost their loved ones.

[stickdog]

86. You should be ashamed. Does that fact that Aviation Methods settled

prove they felt they were fully culpable for this crash? No.

Nor does the fact that Wellstone's family accepted this settlement prove that they hold Aviation Methods 100% responsible. So fuck off with your highly insulting bullshit accusations.

[geek tragedy]

90. I said that the family felt it was pilot error and that the carrier, not

the Vast Conspiracy of Evil Men, was to blame. The fact that they have sued the airline/insurers but not demanded an investigation seems like pretty good evidence to me.

If you want to avoid the accusation, don't say that the Wellstones are saying one thing in public in order to get compensated and hold another in their heart.

[stickdog]

95. What I'm saying is that just because Aviations Method was partially

culpable for not checking Conry's flight history and criminal record better doesn't mean that the Wellstones' acceptance of AM's settlement indicates that the Wellstone family has no other questions about this tragedy.

For you to imply otherwise is both highly insulting and highly inaccurate. So knock off this bullshit line of argument.

[geek tragedy]

102. You're the one saying that they aren't saying what they really think.

They went after the aviation company and its insurers. They didn't demand an investigation into criminal wrongdoing by Halliburton and the FBI.

I'm taking them at their word. You aren't.

In the sane world, taking people at their word isn't considered a form of insult.

[stickdog]

110. What WORD? Because they ACCEPTED a SETTLEMENT?

You don't know shit about the Wellstone family. They've kept a low profile on this issue for a reason. The facts are that Aviation Methods was legally liable because Conry was a convicted felon with a partially forged flight history.

The fact that the Wellstones accepted Aviation Methods' settlement so the families of the others who died on the flight would get better deals than they would have otherwise doesn't prove that the family has no unanswered questions about what happened that day. And it's HIGHLY INSULTING that you keep pretending otherwise.

[geek tragedy]

114. The airline was liable if their conduct/negligence was the CAUSEof the

crash. If a Vast Conspiracy of Evil Men used a Super Cosmic Electro-Beam to shoot the plane down, then that would be the cause of the crash.

I'm going by the public record. You are just making shit up left and right--(like their acceptance of $$$$$ was an act of charity to people who otherwise couldn't have been compensated properly).

You offer nothing but pure speculation without a shred of evidence, and then accuse me of lying for sticking to the known facts.

And Conspiracy Theorists wonder why we laugh at them.

[stickdog]

117. You are going by the PUBLIC RECORD? You are assuming things out of

your ass!

You are literally putting words in the family's mouth. You are saying that agreeing to a settlement with Aviation Methods is equivalent to having no further questions about what happened that day. It's an "argument" that's patently full of shit, and you go much further by insulting the family's integrity in your vain efforts to shore it up.

[geek tragedy]

122. No, my paranoid fellow DU'er

what I said was that the family has accused the airline and pilots, but not Bush and the FBI.

In other words, they think it was pilot error. There is no evidence--absolutely, positively none--that they think the FBI and the Vast Conspiracy of Evil Men murdered their loved ones with a Super Cosmic Electro Death Beam.

I am not insulting the family's integrity--I am saying that I fully believe what they say and that I am taking them at their word.

You don't understand truth, so I can't take your charges of lying seriously.

The fact is that I'm discrediting you, not the Wellstones, which is why you're so pissed.

[stickdog]

130. You keep saying you are "taking them at their word." What word?

Let's the see quotes, Miss Cleo.

[geek tragedy]

210. Actually, lawyers only say what their clients tell them to say.

Those attorneys speak on behalf of and in the place of the families.

Sorry I had to explain the painfully obvious to you.

[stickdog]

83. The Wellstones made this settlement so the rest of the passengers

who died on the plane would get decent compensation.

You insult the family by suggesting that their actions demonstrate anything further.

[geek tragedy]

189. Evidence, Miss Cleo.

Is that based on facts and personal knowledge, or are you just speculating and making things up?

Your comments on this thread STRONGLY suggest the latter.

What about those families of the other victims, btw? How do you account for their participation in the lawsuit?

[kayell]

99. Does the family really think it is an accident, or do they know that

saying it is an accident in public is the safest thing to do?

What do you think the news media and congress REALLY believe about the anthrax letter mailer, versus what they say in public?

[geek tragedy]

107. I know a few people who work on Capitol Hill--I used to work there myself.

They don't think Bush was responsible.

And I don't think Wellstone's family would remain silent if they really thought he was murdered. And if they think he was murdered, they also think the pilots were murdered. That would mean that they sued the families of people they thought were also murder victims. The Wellstones are very good and kind people--that is not something they would do.

Moreover, if they did make such allegations, the Vast Conspiracy of Evil Men couldn't assassinate them too--it would be too damn suspicious.

[stickdog]

155. The Wellstones never sued the pilots' families. So why don't you just stop

LYING about them?

[geek tragedy]

188. Actually, I slightly misread the article.

The article indicates that the Wellstones implicated one of the pilots. I misread that as actually suing him. My bad.

There. I picked up my piece of disinformation. You've got a couple dozen lying on the floor.

[Tsiyu]

45. This so-called "Pro-life" administration

has already proven it is willing to resort to murder and torture to achieve its aims. Why should this death be dismissed as an accident so easily? Are we this naive?

[BeHereNow]

64. "Are we this naive?"

Not me.
They killed him. Period.
Now the question intelligent people should ponder
is this:
If they are willing to eliminate thousands of young soldiers with
DU exposure and God-knows-what-will-be-the-long-term-effects
of the mandatory-vaccine-concoctions, and out and out
KILL people who stand in the way of their agenda,
what does YOUR future hold?
Me, I am OUT of here.
http://www.escapeartist.com
BHN

[mhr]

62. As A Commercial Pilot, All I See Is Empty Rhetoric From The Link

The following is from the link. Note that it is all speculation and no pertinent evidence.

# There was never any distress call from the pilots. Communication was somehow cut off shortly before the crash.

# NTSB’s Carol Carmody handled the Wellstone case. A former CIA official, Carmody is a damage-control expert who handled the NTSB’s investigation of the suspicious aircraft crash of Democratic Senatorial candidate Mel Carnahan, exactly two years earlier.

# NTSB is legally mandated to take jurisdiction over a crash scene, yet they let the FBI tamper with evidence. The NTSB failed to mention the FBI’s presence in their report.

The NTSB did not consider all of the available evidence!

# Some witnesses heard the engines cutting out, a phenomenon not consistent with a stall.

# Others reported odd cell-phone and garage-door phenomena that were taking place about the same time the plane lost both communications and control.

# The NTSB's own simulations, which replicated properties like those of King Air A-100s under similar conditions, were unable to bring the plane down—even when conducted under abnormally slow speeds!

# One of the members who actually signed the report, Richard Healing, admitted that they really had no idea what had caused the plane to crash.

[seventhson]

65. Thast's the publ;iser's tease. Read the book - THEN decide

But EMPTY Rhetoric?

No - just advertising to get us to read the book.

Read it and THEN tell me wqhat you REALLY think.

[mhr]

66. I've Read The NTSB Report - The Publisher Will Need To Provide

A better tease than this before I part with money.

If anyone wants to send me the book I will review and provide my professional opinion.

[stickdog]

77. Luckily, the NTSB report cost nothing.

Because that's about how much it explained.

[seventhson]

92. LOL

That is MY point exactly. There WAS no explanation for the crash other than a vague assertion of "pilot error"

But since there was never a "ruling out" of EMP interference with the plane's electrical system, then we are left with a question mark and a very plausible explanation: murder.

MOTIVE
MEANS
OPPORTUNITY
CORPUS DELECTI
QUI BONO?


Follow the money. In this case the bloody trail leads right to the front of Bush and Cheney's "ranches" (aka their Dr. Evil lairs)

[seemslikeadream]

94. Thanks stickdog

for saving the thread
Plane Crashes, WR Grace, Deadly Asbestos, WTC Collapse & Wellstone

post #11

[Radius]

139. As a pilot,

I'm sure you are aware that the plane was not "fly by wire" and that the altimeter and control systems are actuated by manual systems.

The book claims EMP. Bullshit. The airforce flew aircraft through EMP blasts while filming the detonation of thermonuclear weapons.

Small planes crash regularly and exact causes can rarely be determined because the NTSB has no voice and data recorders to work from.

[stickdog]

158. Wrong. The King Air A-100 has a very capable autopilot.

However, the approach was VOR, so any coupled approach (which is what the pilot was known to prefer) would have been limited to horizontal dimensions.

And the book doesn't simply claim EMP as you state. From what I've heard, it claims high powered microwaves:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000CBC91-B6FD-1E51-A98A809EC5880105

Furthermore, King Air A-100's do not crash regularly.

[Radius]

176. Regularly

Who was the guy the freepers claim clinton murdered, this is the same type of bullshit.

Microwaves, emp, gamma rays what ever. The aircraft had an altimeter and a control system that would still work if every computer system went offline. The 35 I fly is super simple, mechanically it is much simpler than the engine in my car.

Remember the Airbus that went into the trees on autopilot? Wasn't the autopilot's fault. It was the person who relied on the system and failed to correct when it malfunctioned.

SR-71's and f-117 dont crash much but they do and have crashed due to mechanical failure and pilot error. Pilots with thousands of hours crash planes regularly. There were 350 king air a100's built.
http://www.airliners.net/info/stats.main?id=327

I am MANY times more likely to die in a plane I charter than on a commercial jet.


Here is a link to an 100's cockpit. All analog equipment. Compass, altimeter, airspeed. Linkages are wire connections.

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/027247/L/

It is bullshit..

[stickdog]

212. So you don't think EMP weapons brought down the plane. I buy that.

I don't either.

But sorry, that doesn't demonstrate the crash was an accident. Now does it?

How did two pilots manage to forget to engage autopilot in overcast instrument conditions, ignore the CDI needle for a full two minutes, slow more than 60 mph below the recommended approach speed, ignore the stall warning horn, and never even attempt a stall recovery or a go around or to radio a distress message?How did two pilots manage to forget to engage autopilot in overcast instrument conditions, ignore the CDI needle for a full two minutes, slow more than 60 mph below the recommended approach speed, ignore the stall warning horn, and never even attempt a stall recovery or a go around or to radio a distress message?

To me, that's a truly extraordinary level of pilot incompetence. At the very least, it borders on pilot incapacitation. Since you obviously disagree, would you mind sharing with us your narrative blow-by-blow for how all of this happened?

[Radius]

224. Contingency

There are finite ways to destroy an aircraft. If they were at altitude you could say they suffered a decompression and were ko'd. Not likley on final.
Explosives.
Sabotage.

All leave fingerprints.

If you examine commercial aircraft crashes, where the pilots are pros with thousands of hours and usually millitary training, you will find a pattern.

People make very simple mistakes and they snowball to massive failure. Human error is a factor. How do you pump all the fuel overboard on an airbus? Take off against without clearance and crash into the aircraft cleared to takeoff?

http://www.ntsb.gov/pressrel/1999/991201.htm

aircraft i fly. Simple fuckup, dead.

I'm not going to read the NTSB report, I enjoy reading but unless you just read the findings these things get big, like hundreds of pages.

EDIT:

Pilot error accounts for the vast majority of non-commercial aircraft. This is a lame silly theory written by people who have no concept of avionics. Vultures making a buck off a dead guy.

[stickdog]

236. Your research = nil. Your explanation = shit happens.

And you have the gall to question the explanations of others?

See, any hypothesis of what happened that day needs to address a few facts. First, the plane veered off to left of its proscribed approach so much that the CDI needle would have been pegged all the way to side for almost two minutes before it crashed. So what happened? Were the pilots tracking something other than the correct VOR? If so, wouldn't the distance indicator have been a dead giveaway?

So we must assume that the pilots were NOT making a non-precision coupled approached, but a manual approach instead. So who makes a manual approach in overcast, instrument conditions without EVER checking the CDI needle over the last two minutes of flight? TWO pilots and neither ever glances at the CDI needle once during that entire period? Because if it was a "shit happens" accident as you claim, that's what must have occurred.

See, according to the radar returns, once the plane overshot its final approach turn, it never changed course in any way until it veered even further to the LEFT -- even though both the airport AND the proscribed go around were to the right -- just seconds before it hit the trees. Once the final turn was overshot by well over 20 degrees, the plane continued off course in a straight line for the last two of minutes flight -- dangerously losing speed over the last minute. And neither pilot ever even ATTEMPTED to contact ATC during this period. It was as if no one was even attempting to fly the plane this whole time. Wouldn't you agree?

So what's your your explanation for TWO pilots who disengage the autopilot even though the lead pilot prefers coupled approaches, never even try to communicate any problem to air traffic control, never look at either CDI needle AND never monitor either airspeed indicator over the last full minute of a critical instrument approach -- while carrying a US Senator no less? Furthermore, at the last radar return the plane was still slightly over dirty stall speed, and the propellers were still spinning when the plane crashed. So there's no actual evidence that the plane ever even stalled. And it hit the ground at a 30 degree angle, so this obviously wasn't a controlled descent into terrain. Further still, the plane turned to the left before crashing, when the proscribed go around was to the right. And there's no evidence that either pilot ever made any ATTEMPT to try to recover from any putative stall.


*****


Any legitimate hypothesis for what happened needs to actually EXPLAIN what happened. But neither you nor the NTSB report even make the barest attempt. "Shit happens" just ain't an acceptable hypothesis by any non-arbitrary standard, especially when compared to hypotheses that are equally consistent with all known evidence and that actually DO explain what happened that morning.

Just for the purposes of illustrating this point, here's just one competing hypothesis to your and the NTSB's "shit happens" non-explanation:

1) A "service vehicle" equipped with both a decoy VOR beacon with a stronger signal than Eveleth Airport's VOR and an Active Denial System weapon (see : http://boston.bizjournals.com/boston/stories/2004/08/02/daily40.html ) is placed 1-2 miles south of the airport, probably off road, and nearly the same distance from the final VOR approach turn as the airport's actual VOR beacon (so that the DME would read as expected just after to the final approach turn).

2) After the plane finishes its final approach orientation and the Duluth ATC signs off, the overriding VOR signal is switched on. Note that Eveleth Airport is seldom used, and that any pilots further than 30 miles away who were using Eveleth's VOR for navigation purposes (if there were any) wouldn't even notice the tiny change in needle (and perhaps course) deflection that homing in the the new overriding target would entail. Further note the "on again/off again" cover story about Eveleth's VOR being "slightly out of tolerance" (see: http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2003/03/03_zdechlikm_wellstone/), just in case somebody DID notice any temporary problem or discrepancy in navigation.

3) In the cloudy, overcast conditions, Wellstone's pilots were probably relying on autopilot (in a nonprecision coupled approached) to guide the plane horizontally to the VOR -- in this case the false, overriding decoy VOR -- resulting in the plane being drawn off course in the exact manner the radar returns demonstrate. (Of course, if they weren't doing a coupled approach, they would have been looking at the CDI needle and would have drawn them off course just as surely.)

4) When the plane is drawn off course close enough to get in the range of the ADS weapon (currently classified but almost certainly 1/2 a mile), the cockpit area is zapped -- resulting in an effectively pilotless plane. Of course, many other weapons could have been used, but this one has the expository advantage of recently appearing in several high profile, mainstream news stories.

5) The overriding decoy VOR is then switched off, causing the plane's instruments to reorient to Eveleth Airport's real VOR. This last minute reorientation would cause the still engaged autopilot to attempt a sharp right turn -- "crabbing to the right" in the words of one eyewitness (http://www.twincities.com/mld/pioneerpress/4376969.htm -- exacerbating the loss of control of the already pilotless plane.

6) After the plane crashes, someone would presumably make sure the cockpit instruments were consumed in flames -- just on the remote chance that a serious, full inquiry were to be demanded -- as the "cable TV/power company/telephone service vehicle" makes its escape from the scene of the crime.


*****


Note the fundamental difference between this hypothesis and your "shit happens" hypothesis is that this hypothesis actually EXPLAINS what happened. Get it now?

A summary of the NTSB's findings:

http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/content/2004/apr/ntsb_wellstone.html

And if you think that drawing a plane off course using an overriding decoy radio beacon is a far out idea, you may find this thread interesting:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2167138

[Minstrel Boy]

239. Great post, stickdog.

The "shit happens" debunkers don't deserve it, but all should read it.

[Cheswick2.0]

129. They murdered Wellstone and rigged the election

for coleman.
I have never understood how he came from behind to win the election when so many people in MN were suspicious of Wellstones death.

[donkeyotay]

143. I have never understood how he came from behind to win the election

Remember the tragedy of the Wellstone Memorial Service? It was on all the news shows. They talked about it for days. Then, the people of MN put their concerns about dirty politics aside and voted republican... or at least that's what the computerized count said, an otherwise unlikely outcome made plausible by the "outrage" over democratic behavior.

Pravda

[Radius]

137. EMP

I have a PPL and fly Beechcraft aircraft, single engines.
I have an immediate family member who flies 737s and they share more than you think.

Aircraft control surfaces are actuated with metal wires (beech) or hydraulic motors. Altimeters use barometric pressure, some use both radar and pressure.

My point is that emp will not effect anything on a twin engine or single engine private aircraft that would cause loss of control. Radio, gps, maybe but not engine controls or flight controls.

The Airforce flew jets to observe thermonuclear weapons tests and those planes were bombarded with emp. They still took their pictures.

This is bullshit.

[Minstrel Boy]

145. When the airforce flew jets to observe thermonuclear weapons tests

the electronics would have used vacuum tubes, not computer chips vulnerable to EMP.

Against unshielded modern aircraft, EMP bursts can disable such systems as communication, navigation, and normal engine ignition.

[Radius]

172. EMP

Will have no effect on a wires and barometric altimeter. EMP bursts last for microseconds and flying through a microwave link or high powered radar is more likely to cause problems. The first planes I flew had a goddamn distributor cap. How is emp going to effect this? EMP weapons are unicorns.

The last nuke tests were in the 60's and aircraft used electronics (radar) and solid state ignition.

There is nothing in a single engine (or twin, although I have never flown one) beechcraft that uses a computer that is a critical system.

This story is bullshit.

[geek tragedy]

175. People who actually understand airplanes aren't qualified to discuss

this.

Didn't you get the memo?

[Christof]

152. It wouldn't suprise me.

I knew the day he crashed that the Republicans killed him, just like they killed Carnahan in Missouri. :grr: :cry:

[ThomCat]

156. Is there anyone who DOESN'T beleive that the US assassinates people?

Is there anyone who doesn't think we have never used assassination inside our own country?

[goodhue]

160. UMD Philosophy Professor Fetzer also believes Zapruder film is fake

He is a professional conspiratorialist among other things.

http://www.d.umn.edu/~jfetzer/

http://www.assassinationscience.com/

I'm sure the book is a great read but I wouldn't put much stock in it.

[Minstrel Boy]

164. "Police test hi-tech zapper that could end car chases"

Here's an EMP weapon systems application for police forces.

Police test hi-tech zapper that could end car chases
The Guardian, July 12, 2004

A hi-tech device that can bring speeding cars to a halt at the flick of a switch is set to become the latest weapon in the fight against crime.

Police forces in Britain and the US have ordered tests of the new system that delivers a blast of radio waves powerful enough to knock out vital engine electronics, making the targeted vehicle stall and slowly come to a stop.

...

The bulk of the device is designed to fit in a car boot and consists of a battery and a bank of capacitors that can store an electrical charge. Flicking a switch on the dashboard sends a burst of electricity into an antenna mounted on the roof of the car. The antenna then produces a narrow beam of intense radio waves that is directed at the vehicle ahead.

When the radio waves hit the targeted car, they induce surges of electricity in its electronics, upsetting the fuel injection and engine firing signals. "It works on most cars built in the past 10 years, because their engines are controlled by computer chips," said Dr Giri. "If we can disrupt the computer, we can stop the car." A prototype is due to be ready by next summer.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/news/story/0,12976,1259139,00.html

[Radius]

179. A100

Does not use EFI last one built in 1984. No computer. Even if the pilot lost both engines on final he would have time to declare an emergency before he crashed. NTSB can easily tell if an engine was running when it hit the ground.

I do not take this seriously enough to actually read the NTSB findings but this is Bullshit. I have a ppl, unless the guy was dead he would have transmitted. If someone was running wild weasel on air band people would notice. All kinds of people and agencies monitor these bands.

Here is the deal, the pilot fucked up and flew into the ground, stalled, or put the aircraft into an unrecoverable position and killed himself and his passengers or the aircraft suffered a mechanical failure. Electronic interference alone will not crash an airplane anymore than it will my old mg. sorry.

get a grip, this is bullshit.

[stickdog]

184. It must be great to always know just what happened w/o any investigation.

I do not take this seriously enough to actually read the NTSB findings.

Kudos to you for forming an adamant opinion anyway!

[Radius]

221. Do

you need to read a book to see the sky is blue?

The last airframe of this model of aircraft was built in 1984. Did you read my posts? I said this model of aircraft and its engines are not effected by the neat gadget someone posted on. Aircraft engines are usually very simple. Simple means less likely to fuck up. The old beech I fly has a carb and distributor. Have you ever seen these things, or worked on them?

It is easy for NTSB to determine if an internal combustion engine was running and its throttle position on impact.

This is just somebody vulturing, eat the dead and make a buck..

I have plenty of time in beechcraft and can tell you this emp, microwave, gamma ray, alien theory is bullshit. You can cut power to all the instruments and the plane will still fly.

In this thread you have a commercial pilot calling bs and while I'm no pro I can tell you that the beechcraft 35 will fly with no computers involvement.

You got a question or just spouting?

[stickdog]

237. See post 236. The plane won't land itself if the pilots are incapacitated.

In fact, it will most likely crash very much like it DID crash under those circumstances.

[Freddie Stubbs]

185. So, who is next?

:shrug:

[Zinfandel]

226. Conspiracy is the unspeakable truth….Of course Wellstone was murdered...

Of course it was murder...(and they made sure Wellstone’s wife was onboard, so she couldn't take Paul's seat like Mel Carnahan's wife did, when his plane mysteriously went down during his senate race against John Ashcroft.)

Paul Wellstone was the most hated and feared democrat in the country by Bush and the fascist.

Killing Wellstone assured the republican fascist control of the senate by a one vote majority...it's too obvious.

What kind of proof do you want? Bush coming out saying "yes, we blew up Wellstone’s plane because he was the most liberal senator in the country"? Do you expect to see it on Fox or CNN...Bush's federal FAA doing the investigation?

“He was the only senator standing for re-election to have voted against the war. Wellstone’s elimination would silence the sharpest critic in the Senate to White House foreign policy, and send a chill through the legislature, much as the anthrax mailings cowed Democratic members into supporting the Patriot Act. A Democratic Congressional representative, quoted in the above piece on Wellstone's death: "I don't think there's anyone in congress who doesn't suspect it (murder). It's too convenient, too coincidental, and too damned obvious.”

What major "news" organization would report any of this? The republican owned and operated corporate media? They know people will accept ANYTHING they tell them and the sheep will only have "DOUBTS"...that's good enough for them. "Mission accomplished." They won't report on anything that might harm Bush and their own greedy interest.

Are you to say the CIA, which is supported and operating, only to protect American corporate interest (i.e. OIL and world domination) that they DON’T have the means, (after sixty years and trillions of dollars for secret research and today’s technology,) to push a button and get rid of anyone they choose with no trace of any real evidence, of course they do...are they going to tell you or me about it...where, again, on Fox or CNN?

Go with your feelings, your gut feelings, it's all so neat and tidy...there is no doubt...the killings of JFK, MLK, RFK, Carnahan, even JFK jr and dozens of others, and we'll never hear the truth...the CIA, FBI and the like do not work for or care about liberals and their concerns...they are all about US corporate world control and these pesky democrats who get in the way...good-bye and good riddance!

Secretly killing the opposition has always been a means to silence the voices who speak out against powerful and the ruling class of this country, as well as though out world history. New technologies and a cooperative corporate media simply make it easier to accomplish and more difficult to exposed.

This a fact of life...but it's hard for us peasants to accept because it means we are just pawns, with no real control and helpless, so let's just say it never really happened until there's absolute proof. Well that will never happen, unfortunately, it's long gone...

Sometimes one has to go with ones own feelings and inner absolutes, they try at every turn to discourage those feelings in us. Most of us have unknowingly done this and we have been programmed to abandon our own sense of the obvious…we are constantly fed...to just believe what we see and what we are told. Government, (we are speaking of true fascist here, not something else) would never do such things…as if these greedy disgusting people wouldn’t kill and create an invasion with innocent people killed and maimed, for profit and control.

These are ruthless, sick, power hungry; money hungry, cold, insensitive monsters we are talking about…nothing will stop them from their overwhelming need for power and greed. They truly believe they are different and better and deserving of it all. Undeniable elitist. And no one better get in their way.

Always QUESTION AUTHORITY (and their "official" line, because it's always bullshit!)

[teryang]

229. Good post!

I like Machiavelli's Discourses, the text book for Bushonian shennanigans.

[Zinfandel]

231. "Shennanigans" is a polite word for it.

However, I understand your source and point.

[teryang]

235. Well the litany of deceits, frauds, killings, etc. gets to be

...a bit much. Gross understatement is mildly amusing as is the image of these threads where people get all worked up over "conspiracy theories." If they would conspire to kill thousands and take over a nation with an offensive colonial war, why would they hesitate to kill one politician?

Many elected officials in Congress have a reasonable suspicion that this was a politically motivated murder and most of them of former experienced prosecutors, people who know what the elements of proof are, rather than amateurs.

[geek tragedy]

245. I'm going to guess that

you're making shit up. Am I right, or are you a close personal associate of dozens of members of Congress?

[Radius]

230. You should read the posts

the pilots made. I'm a private pilot and there is a commercial pilot here who agree this is bull.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

This is on the same level as the freep theory about the clintons and the dead guy in the park.

Short and sweet there is no electronic method to crash a circa 1984 beech a100. The last one was made in 84, most were made much earlier.

Analog altimeter, and flight controls. wires and pulleys dont mind emp, microwaves or, xrays. Just like the enola gay. They are not effected.
I like a good conspiracy theory, this one is just bad..

[stickdog]

238. Try post 236 on for size. Then get back to us. (nt)

[geek tragedy]

246. But, but but BUSH IS EVIL.

That PROVES it. Science doesn't matter. Logic doesn't matter.

A firm, emotional conviction that he was murdered overrides all higher brain functions.

Now go buy their exploitat--er--inquiry!

[Zan_of_Texas]

247. Zinfandel, great post!

The red flag for me was when they immediately cited poor weather and icing, even though the weather was merely mediocre. AND, at a time when the nation was going nuts over snipers in DC and other stuff, the rapid official verdict before any investigation could have possibly taken place, was "It wasn't terrorism."


I don't think we've reposted this yet in this long thread.

NOTE THE DATE and the metaphoric use of language:
Posted May 9, 2002
in The Nation

Paul Wellstone, Fighter
by John Nichols
   

Paul Wellstone is a hunted man. Minnesota's senior senator is not just another Democrat on White House political czar Karl Rove's target list, in an election year when the Senate balance of power could be decided by the voters of a single state. Rather, getting rid of Wellstone is a passion for Rove, Dick Cheney, George W. Bush and the special-interest lobbies that fund the most sophisticated political operation ever assembled by a presidential administration. "There are people in the White House who wake up in the morning thinking about how they will defeat Paul Wellstone," a senior Republican aide confides. "This one is political and personal for them."

That has made it political and personal for Wellstone. The man who decided to abandon a self-imposed two-term limit on his Senate service at least in part because of his determination to block Bush's conservative agenda wears the target with pride. At a moment when most Democrats are still trying to figure out how to challenge a popular President, the former college wrestler is leaping into the ring. Wellstone is not running for cover; he is running to deliver a message about politics in a state and a nation that he believes to be far more progressive than the readers of political tea leaves in Washington could begin to imagine.

"This race is going to be a case study of whether you can maintain liberal, progressive positions and win in this country in 2002," says Wellstone ... "Midwestern voters don't feel the connection with the Democrats that they once did," crows Rove. To that end, Wellstone, South Dakota's Tim Johnson and Iowa's Tom Harkin, all up for re-election, are getting what GOP insiders call "the Rove treatment": recruitment of high-profile Republican challengers, major-league fundraising assistance and regular presidential visits. All other things being equal, picking off either Johnson or Harkin would be enough to split the Senate 50-50 and again allow Vice President Cheney to break partisan ties.

But beating Wellstone would be the sweetest win. "They have made it very clear that if they could beat one Democrat this year, it would be Paul Wellstone," says Minnesota political consultant Richman. "Paul gets under their skin." "When I first met the President, he called me 'Pablo,'" Wellstone jokes. "That lasted a day or two. Then they started trying to figure out how they were going to get rid of me." ...

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20020527&c=1&s=nichols
   
`~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[AlFrankenFan]

228. I don't really buy into the assassination theory

but even though I along with so many others loved the Wellstones, I suppose there are some people who would go so far to do that because they didn't like them. Which is very hard for me to believe.

I will read this book...just to give it a chance. As I posted about this book a while ago...it damn well better not disgrace Paul and Sheila.

[LibertyorDeath]

233. ^

^

[LibertyorDeath]

234. Unless someone involved gets a conscience we may never know

for sure what really happened.

That said it is much more likely than not that Mr.Wellstone was murdered
given everything we know.

The people currently in power in the US are unlike any previous administration they are Evil I am not being overly dramatic.
These individuals are Ideologues & Fascists.
They are Ruthless to the Core they will stop at nothing to retain Power.

This may help to explain why so much of the media & even many Democrats acquiesce to them. If they don't get you via a small plane then there's always anthrax letters. I read Ted Kennedy was also supposed to be on that flight with Mr.Wellstone.

Think of all the Overt assassinations in the last 40 years of American political history. MLK Bobby Kennedy JFK .

These people were murdered by the Far Right IMO
If they have perfected EMP to this point then the Fascists in America would be sorely tempted to use it on their political enemies.

These people are Evil Personified don't ever forget it.
Killing is part of their business.

Got doubts read this

High Plains Grifter - The Life and Crimes of George W. Bush
Part I:...http://www.counterpunch.org/stclair08312004.html
Part II:...http://www.counterpunch.org/stclair09012004.html
Part III:..http://www.counterpunch.org/stclair09022004.html
Part IV:...http://www.counterpunch.org/stclair09032004.html

[Minstrel Boy]

240. Murder is not, in the end, a "how done it." It's a "who done it."

I posted this to my blog a few weeks ago, and though I don't mention Wellstone, I think it's relevant to this discussion.


Unknown Knowns

It seems often said of the things that consume me, "We'll never know what really happened." Think of the murder of JFK, and lately the events of September 11. The suggestion is that we who feel something is not right have little more than our unease to guide us, and that the facts are buried daily by the piling upon of time, ignorance and disinformation.

Remember these words from the Pentagon's Baron Sardonicus:

There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.

It's always great fun to make sport of a Rumsfeldism, but I find myself ashamed to admit I understand what he was saying. Though true to form, he didn't say enough. Rumsfeld neglected to add that there are also unknown knowns. That is, there are things we don't know we know.

Since the mutation of America into the National Security State, it has been bedeviled by dark magi with deep bags of tricks: masters of sleight of hand, misdirection and persuasion, who dazzle their citizen-audience and leave them gasping, Now how'd they do that? And while the tricked try to figure out the mechanics of deep black illusions, for years the magi have been getting away with murder. And they will continue to do so, until enough people take their eyes off the tricks, and look at the tricksters.

Someone pretending to be Lee Harvey Oswald made a self-incriminating series of telephone calls between September 28 and October 1, 1963, allegedly to the Cuban and Soviet consulates, and one supposedly between the Cuban and Soviet consulates at a time when the Cuban consulate was closed and empty. The calls were taped by the CIA. In one of the calls, the Oswald impersonator mentions having met with Valery Kostikov, a man known to the CIA as the chief of KGB assassination operations in the Western hemisphere.

The CIA has lied about the tapes for decades. It claimed they were routinely destroyed before the assassination. But FBI documents have been uncovered which detail how at least two of the tapes were listened to after the assassination by Bureau agents familiar with Oswald’s voice, who determined it wasn't Oswald. There is a tape of a telephone conversation between J Edgar Hoover and Lyndon Johnson, made days after the murder, in which they discuss this monkey wrench. And the Assassination Records Review Board found CIA documents in which the CIA itself states that some of the tapes were reviewed after the assassination, contradicting its long-held public position.

Grassy Knoll or sewer grate? Three shots, four shots or five? It doesn't matter. The CIA was lying about Oswald before November 22, 1963, creating a legend for him that could be used to frame him as the sole assassin. That alone should be enough to open the eyes of all but the most wilfully blind.

We need to return to what first troubled us, because that should inform us what we ought be doing now to put things right. And the most troubling aspects of modern American history are the unrequited demands of justice. This, I believe, is where the investigation into the first Kennedy assassination faltered. Researchers got down on their knees on the knoll, examining blades of grass and calculating trajectories. They became consumed with the minutiae; with the how. After a little while of this, the murder of a President became a puzzle instead of a crime; a pursuit of hobbyists. And it's what I fear for the 9/11 truth movement.

At a certain point, when a critical mass of evidence was reached - and it may have been as early as Ruby silencing Oswald - Americans should have known enough, to say Enough, already. And they should have brought the United States to a standstill until they saw something like justice done.

Americans will only wake from their nightmare of watching their finest liberal leaders, witnesses to high crimes and sundry victims getting lonegunman'd, suicide'd and accident'd, treason go unpunished and mass murder rewarded, if they learn that "We'll never know what really happened" is irrelevant. Because these are not puzzles; these are crimes. And crimes are never, in the end, How done its. They are Who done its. And here's the singular unknown known: we know enough, and have for years, to know who.

Now, do something about it.