My brother's girlfriend's kids want to join the military.

[Ladyhawk]

My brother is a super reich-winger: an uber-greedy Ayn Rand objectivist who reads Newsmax, listens to Rush Limbaugh and watches Faux News. He and his girlfriend just bought a house. Two of her three kids want to join the military.

The boy, Daniel, doesn't impress me very much. My nephew told me quite frankly, "Daniel is cruel to animals." Daniel was there. This probably wasn't the right thing to say, but I said it anyway: "Did you know that nearly 100% of serial killers were cruel to animals when they were younger?" I told him he had to develop empathy for animals or he could have none for humans. I believe there is a balance. Life feeds on life, but cruelty for the sake of cruelty is just plain wrong.

Later, I heard he will probably join the army. Sigh. I feel badly for him and any foreigners that are on the wrong end of his military rifle.

His sister seems a bit more balanced, but she wants to join the Air Force in order to become a commercial airline pilot. A bunch of questions immediately sprang to mind. In one of Michael Moore's books, I distinctly remember him saying that commercial airline pilots get paid less than people working at McDonald's. Probably it was hyperbole to get a point across, but shouldn't she know if that is a low-paying job?

Also, she says she has to keep her grades up to get into this special Air Force program. I'm thinking if * pulls a win out of his ass, she'd practically be drafted into the program.

Still, it's her dream. Dumping on her dream seems wrong...yet, I can't help but feel that the military will dump on her dream should she make it that far.

So, would you try to get around your dumbass fascist brother and his girlfriend to warn these kids to stay the hell away from the military? If so, how would you go about it? What would you say?

LH

P.S. If they influence my nephew to join the military, I'll kill them!

[Claire Beth]

1. You need to order a copy of .....

"Fahrenheit 911" which is to be released in less than a month now. That'll change their mind, QUICKLY!!!! I have ordered 3 copies so I can show it to people who are waffling on the idea on who to vote for.

[rocktivity]

2. Tell them to wait until after election

And ask them how they'd feel about having an AWOL commander-in-chief.

By the way, are you aware that young George Bush used to blow up frogs?

:headbang:
rocknation

[ProfessorPlum]

3. I hope they end up ok

but if someone has to go, it sounds like my dream scenario to have Ayn Rand-worshiping families to be harmed at least as much as other, less despicable members of humanity.

[MsTryska]

4. To me military service is still honorable

and the ultimate sacrifice one can give.

[jjohnson]

13. Sure its honorable

When ur filling sandbags in Louisiana. But not when you knowingly enter an obviously unjust war. Civic duty is one thing, but in this case, its a fine line between whats right, and what amounts to premeditated murder!

[maxsolomon]

15. it is not that honorable

sorry if you've served & feel differently, but basically, i feel the military is based on brainwashing, surrendering your individuality & freedom of choice, & learing unquestioning obediance to a heirarchical structure. and then killing for politicians & power. i told my father so when he suggested i join to get art school paid for.

'defending our freedom' is about the last thing the american military, ww2 aside (and that involved dropping 2 nuclear weapons on civilian populations, which isn't 'honorable'), has ever done.

mexican war
native american genocide
multiple interventions in central america
spanish american war
ww1
korea
vietnam
iraq2

tell me how those wars are 'honorable'.

[jjohnson]

17. 10-4

[MsTryska]

19. I'm really don't want to get into a discussion

on this, but suffice to say those same people who are brainwashed, dishonorable, non-individuals are the same people who are willing to fight and die so that you have the freedom to talk shit about them.


granted that freedom has been curtailed during this particular regime, but that has no bearing on those who've given their lives for you. (whether you see it form the same perspective or not)

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mmonk]

5. Military service is fine

But I wouldn't push it under this president, especially since Americans have no more war crimes immunity thanks to the mis-administration.

[MsTryska]

8. Agreed! nt.

[wurzel]

6. In the military this boy may find himself on the receiving end.

Being on the sharp end of a bombing raid concentrates the mind.

[bleedingheart]

7. I know a RWer who won't let her son join

the boy lives in her house with nothing to do at 23 ...she is all pro war...pro Bush..etc...funny how she won't let him join....in fact she had a big fight with her new husband when he suggested the kid get a life in the Army....

[quisp]

9. I say let them join

The Air Force is a pretty safe bet, and a commercial airline pilot makes a hell of lot more than anyone working in a McDonalds.

As for the boy, once he's in the Army he find out there are a lot of people much more cruel than is he (Drill Sargeants come to mind).

But if you want to convine him NOT to join tell him you can't think of anyone more qualified to stop an insurgent's bullet and thank him PROFUSELY for helping to insure a steady supply of oil profits for our CnT (Commander 'n Thief)

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RivetJoint]

11. She better go to college if she wants to be a pilot

ALL Air Force pilots are officers...she needs a Bachelor's degree to become an officer.

[politicat]

12. As far as the AF goes, if Academy, it's not a bad career.....

And if she's a) an officer, b) female, and c) takes a specialty that's not combat related (i.e. cargo and transport rather than fighter) it's not a bad life as military lives go.

I know you don't want them there. But it is their lives, and the Air Force isn't a bad place for an ambitious woman who wants a non-traditional career (the AF is the best branch for women, as it happens....)

However, she needs to talk to someone who IS in the Air Force about what it's really like. I'd suggest the MAAF lists (Military Atheists and Agnostics and Families - the people on the list tend to be very kind and rational, and don't preach about the cult of the military or religion) or another liberal military list (there are some....) Piloting is well paid in the military; not so much in the private sector. Also, please direct her to Patrick Smith's articles at Salon.com. He writes the Ask The Pilot column and just released his first book.

The boy sounds like a waste. He also sounds like most of the grunts in my brothers' units, and many of the men in my husband's former unit. Sorry. I'd be very worried about your nephew sharing a house with him. Perhaps encouraging him to enlist would be good for your nephew's sake. Cold, I know, but....

I must admit that I'm very ambivalent about the military - I feel strongly in both ways. I'm married to a vet, daughter of a vet, sister to two bothers and a sister in the military. It paid for college, and our middle class standard of living at the expense of our souls. It gave us good lives, but bad nightmares. It's NOT free.

As it happens, I turned down an appointment to the Air Force Academy after touring the campus. I couldn't find a way to be comfortable with the lack of argument allowed. I'm an independent thinker and don't compartmentalize that part of myself well. That's something to consider, too. She'd better be both ambitious, driven AND obedient....

Pcat

[Fescue4u]

14. Mcdonalds must pay alot better than they used to

" I distinctly remember him saying that commercial airline pilots get paid less than people working at McDonald's. Probably it was hyperbole to get a point across, but shouldn't she know if that is a low-paying job? "


I have friend who is pilot for American Airlines. He earns about $150k per year.

Im not familiar with that particular quote, but it doesnt sound accurate.

[JHB]

16. From "Stupid White Men"...

It's the difference between the "name brand" carriers between major markets and their "local" subsidiaries.

As I'm sitting in a Michigan airport waiting for my American Airlines flight to Chicago, a man in a uniform sits down beside me and strikes up a conversation.
I learn that he is actually a pilot, for American Airlines-or more precisely American Eagle, the commuter airline of American Airlines, which like all commuters these days is now adding jets to its fleets for flights of under two hours. This saves the parent company lots of money, I guess.
The pilot who has approached me is not scheduled to fly the plane I'm on. He's hoping to grab an empty seat for the flight across Lake Michigan.
"Do you have to pay to fly if it's a personal trip?" I asked.
"No," he replied. "It's about the only fringe benefit we have."
He then revealed that the starting pay for a pilot at American Eagle was $16,800 a year.
"What?" I asked, sure that I had misheard the figure. "Sixteen grand per year?"
"That's right," the captain responded. "And that's high. At Delta's commuter airline, starting pay is $15,000 for a pilot; at Continental Express, it's around $13,000."
"Thirteen thousand ? For the captain of a commercial airliner? Are you messing with me?"
"No, I'm not messin' with anyone. It gets worse. That first year as a pilot, you have to pay for your own flight training and your own uniforms. After that's all deducted, you end up with about $9,000."
He paused so that could sink in. Then he added: "Gross. "
"I can't believe what I'm hearing." My voice was now getting to a level where others around us began listening in.
"Believe it," he assured me. "One of our pilots last month went down to the welfare office and applied for food stamps. No kidding. With four kids, at his level of pay as a pilot, he was legally eligible for assistance. The front office at American found out about this and sent out a memo that said no pilot was to apply for food stamps or welfare-even if they were eligible for it! Anyone who did apply would be let go.
"So now my buddy just goes down to the food bank on his way home. They don't ask for anything from you that would get back to American Airlines."
I thought I'd heard everything by now. But t-his story was beyond frightening. I did not want to get on that plane. You see, there's something about us humans and our basic animal instincts for survival-and one of those instincts, probably traceable back to the caveman days, is: Never, ever let someone fly you up in the air who's making less than the kid at Taco Bell.
I got on the plane, but only after I convinced myself the guy must have been feeding me a line. How else could I justify risking my life like that? The following week, though, I made some calls and did some research. Much to my horror, that pilot's figures were right. While captains who had been with these commuter airlines for a number of years were pulling in the big money ($40,000/year!), first-year rookies in many cases were living below the poverty level.
I don't know about you, but I want the people taking me with them to defy nature's most powerful force-gravity-to be happy, content, confident, and well paid. Even on the big jets for the major airlines, the flight attendants-another group of employees whose training may one day be critical to saving your life-start out at somewhere between $15,000 and $17,000 a year.

[MsTryska]

18. he said it in Downsize This i think.....

or whatever the movie was that went with Downsize this...of his book tour.

he said basically that he was in an airport and he started talking to the guy next to him. Turned out he was a pilot and was only making 20-ishK a year. He had just started and the route he got was puddle-jumping on the commuter flights.


So yeah, starting salary for the suckiest routes doesn't pay much more than McDonald's, but once you get to the more prestigious routes, you make some good money.


edit to add - or maybe it was Stupid White Men as stated above. ;)

[uberotto]

22. Depends on who you work for...

Pilots who are just starting out, working for one of the small commuter airlines (American Eagle, Spirit, ASA) start out making about $16,000 a year. If you survive and make it to the Big Time, i.e. American, Delta, Continental, then you start making the big bucks.

We have a flight school located here, and a couple of years ago they did a news story on what it was like starting out as a commercial pilot. It was back when United was asking it's pilots to take a pay cut, and the local reporter was trying to highlight the pay discrepancy between small commuter airline pilots and the "big boys".

[uberotto]

20. From personal experience...

The boy will probably not stay in the Army very long. Most people in the Military are not very Gung-Ho, and from my personal experience in the Navy, the few Gung-Ho people that I knew didn't fit in well and had a lot of problems making rank (getting promoted).

As a matter of fact, the one guy in Boot Camp who wanted to be in the Military more than anyone else was one of the first ones to wash out. He couldn't handle the stress. Real Military is not like on TV or in the video games, you spend most of your time making your bed, ironing your uniform and shaving really, really close.

As for the Girl, if she wants to be a commercial pilot, then the military is the best (and cheapest) way to get there. First, and most importantly, she needs to go to college at a military academy, preferably the Air Force Academy, and major in a Science field ( maybe Electrical Engineering, Math or Physics ). Almost all of the pilots that I knew in the Navy had gone to a Military College. Military flight school is difficult to get into (unless your daddy is a rich political type) and every advantage (such as getting really good grades at a military academy) will help.

As for commercial pilot pay, when you work for one of the small commuter airlines, such as Spirit, Americal Eagle or ASA, you start out making about $16,000 a year. However, if you make it to the Big Time, flying 737's, 757's DC10's for Major Airline, i.e. American, Delta, Continential, then your pay will go up to somewhere between $75,000 to $150,000 a year.

[Ladyhawk]

23. Thank you to all who replied.

I'm not trying to dump on our people who are currently in uniform. It's just I think they are being braiwashed to attain goals for evil men. In my idealistic mind, no one should be willingly providing fodder for them right now. Bad move since we'll soon be starting a new war if * wins.

Oh yes, the war will be totally "justified," just like the Iraq War was. :rolleyes:

You gotta understand...I'm one of those who awakened due to the Iraq War. I was a Republican until 2002. I saw the discrepancy between what the "liberal" media was saying and the reality of the situation. The wingers were saying, "You just wait and see. There will be WMD, probably something even worse than what the president has hinted at!"

It didn't sit well. I called it a lie then and I'm calling it a lie, now.

Now I see * has done nothing but lie his whole damn life. Screw him.

[redsoxliberal]

24. I plan on joining the marines in 2 years

to get through college.