I deal in rare books & autographs and I have one nagging question...

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

Even the most amature forger assures that he is going to have period paper, ink, or typewriter. It would take someone $25.00 & 15 minutes to get a vintage Selectric. There were some awfully good printheads and you could practically DTP from a high end IBM machine in the 70's.

I would have to hold the document in my hand and put it under a microscope before I would say one way or the other. I'ts pretty obvious that a key strike makes an impression on the paper whereas laser and jet printers don't.

Anyone claiming that they know for sure, is full of crap unless they have actually examined the document in a half assed scientific way... Which does NOT mean looking at a JPEG.

BTW, this is in reference to the new Bush papers.

[napi21]

1. CBS said they did most of that! Docs are real!

AGAIN...CBS nor Dan Rather is going to jeopardise thier reputation and credibility for one story.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

3. Agreed. Checking authenticity on a document less than 50 years old

sould be relatively easy unless you had a master forger who would NOT have made the document on MS Word.

Unless CBS is staffed by idiots and did not check the document, I'll have to throw my hat in the ring with CBS at this point.

[nostamj]

12. yes, but... CBS said they had photocopies

and not originals....

for the record, I trust CBS to be honest on this story.

[fsbooks]

2. the original documents would help

CBS says they have photocopies.

Mind you, I fully believe in their authenticity and there is no doubt at all that they are consistent with all the other evidence.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

5. The originals need to be procured, then.

Yeach. Proving anything one way or the other without the originals will be impossible.

[napi21]

9. Screw that! CBS doesn't HAVE to produce anything!!!

If I had the evidence, I don't think I'd give it over either! Make 'em sue!! Keep the story alive!! If you know you're right, don't give in.

[djg21]

21. Just a few points . . .

If the documents are not authentic, what incentive would CBS or Dan Rather have to admit as much? It would destroy Rather's reputation and CBS' news franchise.

Additionally, while I appreciated Rather's comments tonight, I hardly think one can objectively say that the authenticity of the documents has been proven. The simple fact is that these documents cannot definitively be proven to be either authentic or fake, and, as evidenced by this forum and forums like Freerepublic, what people choose to believe will largely depend on their politics.

That being said, the documents themselves don't even matter, so long as the right questions are asked and answered. This evening, Rather asked the questions, and Bush will have to respond.

[kayell]

4. I think that is one reason they said they had other information

that confirmed this story. They did not run it on the basis of the documents alone, although what they showed of their experts was pretty convincing. I am certain that this story was far, FAR more carefully vetted than most. And Rather made it very clear that they are standing by this story, that there has been NO credible evidence against the documents being real.

[kskiska]

6. They look pretty awful

They could even be photocopies of carbon copies.

[jimshoes]

7. I used to use an IBM Composer

and a selectric at work 10 years or so ago. Computers were not that poular yet and I used the composer to set type for some printing jobs. There is a marked difference in print quality, sort of like the difference between a selectric for instance comparable to a 300 dpi ink jet and a laser printer for the composer. If anyone was wondering.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

8. There were IBm machines at the time that could super and subscript

letters.

Notice that no one has said DEFINITAVELY that thais could not have been typed or created in the 70's. All the negative has been inuendo.

What a surprise.

[djg21]

23. State-of-the-art typewriters.

Do you folks really believe that a government agency would spend money on expensive, state-of-the-art typewriters. Having worked for both the federal government and a state government, I find that proposition to be a little farfetched!

[Blue Wally]

11. You could superscript and subscript on a manual typewriter too.

You just ran the paper roll up or down a half a space by hand then hit the key. Given the timeframe of the documents and the military correspondence system, the "file copy" would usually have been anywheres from the 3rd to the 8th carbon and would be pretty smudgy.

[Yupster]

19. I remember doing that

for footnotes in college.

You had to roll the roller up half a line. Then you cursed when it didn't come out right.

[kskiska]

13. I used those machines, too

The Composer was primarily a typesetting machine – not a typewriter your average secretary would use. It was cumbersome to use, requiring numerous settings, compared to today's computer-generated typing. Special slick paper was used for the best impression, but the type tended to smear, so we had to apply a fixative before it could be cut and pasted.

I also used Selectrics and Mag Cards. The company later bought a Linocomp, one of the first generation of phototypesetters. Computers wiped out real quality type, though. The type we used from typehouses was far superior to anything used today.

[jimshoes]

16. I know several printer friends

who watched their $10,000 CompuGraphic machines become obsolete in a years time. Some of them were still making payments. Can't even give them away now.

[kskiska]

18. I know Compugraphic operators

who were out of a job suddenly. One had offered to train me on that machine. Glad I never got the time. I stuck to paste-up till I was told no more freelancers would be hired unless they learned computer. I adapted, but other "mechanical men" I knew retired earlier than planned.

[Wickerman]

10. Good point Billy

and NPR just reported that the first reports of forgery happened on a RW blog before the original 60 Minutes program finished airing! The TV images were the only source docs available!

This smells of WH complicity.

[jimshoes]

14. Hadn't heard that....

does sound fishy.

[Cleita]

15. True you would have to look at the original under a good

light and with the right examining equipment to determine whether it is computer generated or done mechanically on a typewriter. I really don't think this would be hard to do even for an amateur, like myself, having used both methods in my lifetime.

However, they don't seem to be focused on that but other things like the difference in his signature, which I don't find unusual. Mine changes a little each time I do it so why shouldn't someone elses? Harder to dispute was using a tiny "th" at the top of a date. I really don't remember that character on any of my typewriters but it doesn't mean that among all the different font styles and typewriter models available then, it wouldn't have been available.

[librechik]

17. CBS expert had the originals, and castigated anybody that tried

to make an analysis without the originals in hand, for all the reasons mentioned in this thread and more.

His opinion: The docs are real.

Don't worry about the typeface argument, it is DOA.

[troublemaker]

20. CBS only has PHOTOCOPIES. Impossible to authenticate but not

impossible to debunk. Xeroxes are a problem all around.

[Yupster]

22. As a gratuitous aside

tell this history groupie what's the coolest thing or two you have?

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

27. The coolest thing I have bought and sold was a set of history books

That were given to Frederick Remington by Mart Twain and each book contained both signatures and a small Remington sketch. Found them in a used book shop in Northern Alabama.

The original owner was convinced they were forgeries, but I thought not and after giving it my best shot bought the books and had them authenticated by an independant appraiser and in turn the buyer had both Twain and Remington experts review the books.

In the end, I made a ton of money, learned a lot and met some fascinating people.

[walldude]

24. 60 minutes has been sued many times

in it's 35 some odd years on the air. Only once has anyone ever won a lawsuit against them. Thats a pretty good track record. This smells like typical WH spin. They'll talk a bunch of shit to keep the faithful in line then hope that Britney Spears will get a hangnail or something to draw attention away from the story.
I e-mailed some encouraging words to CBS, anyone who hasn't done so should.

[goclark]

26. I sent an email to Rather

Why should we worry our "beautiful minds" with finding proof?
CBS is a big guy.
They can handle stuff like this on their own.
Why should we have to get to the bottom of this at all.

I take it like the gospel truth until Kitty Kelly tells me otherwise.

[ConsAreLiars]

25. CBS has copies, but they are of very high quality, unlike the crap we've

seen floating around. Tonight's broadcast included one of the experts in front of a very highly magnified copy of a section of type which even on TV was very crisp and sharp looking. Much better than any fax or carbon. Very easy to see the details of the font used. Original paper would be a nice thing, but so far the attacks on the validity of the docs have relied on easily disproven lies. That is enough to prove that the case against the docs is weak or non-existent. Maybe the aliens from Uranus are involved, but the simpler explanation that the docs are consistent with the statements by contemporaries and with all other known facts and with everything else that is known about chimpy's actions during that period simply because they are a part of that same history.