Janeane's dad and Franken's friend, Mark. Why so many like them?

[madfloridian]

They annoy me to death, and I am not going to listen anymore. However, I have a theory. It is not going to be popular here, but it is true.

Our Democrats did not make clear from the very beginning that Iraq was not responsible for 9/11. One man named Howard tried, and he was blasted out of the water. I remember Clark mentioned it also.

It has just been avoided and treated as a non-issue. I think that our party has underestimated the seriousness of this issue all along. They just kept hoping it would go away, and they would not have to confront.

There would be fewer Carmine Garofalos and Mark Luthers if our party had spoken out clearly and said at the beginning that Iraq was not a threat....that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.

We did not, and now they are just getting away with all this repeat stuff. They just bring up stuff that has been discredited and lie about it all over again. It is hard now for our guys to deny it. When you take a country to war based on lies, and the other side goes along....then we have failed the public.

And the usual disclaimer:
We have donated to Kerry, and we will vote for him.

[alittlelark]

1. My experience with those types is that

they are NEVER WRONG - ever. It extends out into all aspects of their lives. An incident is Always someone else's fault. They truly believe in their beliefs - facts be damned.

[Eric J in MN]

2. Carmine Garofalo stands by Bush just as much on economic matters (nt)

nt

[jpgray]

3. I agree, but that is the job of the MEDIA

There are two things to be reported in an allegation or campaign statement. The fact of the statement or allegation, which is who says it and what was said, or the truth of it, which is whether the statement has any validity. Bias in the media can be expressed by weighting things one way or another. We now have two recent examples to show this:

Swift Boats. All fact. The media networks focused almost exclusively on the facts of the charges, giving up ample time to the Swifties themselves without ever looking into the truth of the charges. The result is people hear everyone talking about how Kerry didn't serve well, and if enough spokespeople say it and enough journalists report what they say without saying whether it is true, people will believe it. Constant parroting for a week and then muted evaluation of the truth has the desired result--Kerry is smeared by a glut of false charges that were directly refuted by the record. Since all that was reported was the fact of the charges, they became assumed truth before any evaluation occured.

TANG docs. All truth. The media have focused almost exclusively on the validity of the documents rather than the fact of their implications. The result is everyone hears their validity constantly questioned from all corners, and they get the impression that they are false.

This is how the media can be biased without being blatant about it. Kerry cannot solve this, Dean was unable to solve it in the primaries--no one can solve it. Dean is angry and a flaming liberal? Just focus on the fact of the allegation--that it was said--and people will start to believe it. Dean's criticisms of Bush? Focus on their truth and muddy them out so people don't believe them. Simple system, totally indefensible line of attack.

[madfloridian]

5. But they should have said it. Hoped it got out.

I know what you are saying. However, the only place I consistently heard that Iraq did not do 9/11 was not from our party but at DU and other places on the internet. The media does contrive to twist, I agree. But our guys were NOT saying it. I know that because I would get tears when their side attributed 9/11 to Iraq before and after the war, ....and our side did not fight back.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. They did,

you missed Byrd's speeches to the Well of the Senate, not your fault only reason I heard them was CSPAN...

You missed them, Kucinish started well before , again C-SPAN.

You missed it, Kennedy...

I could go on.

Until the media decides that what they are doing is bad for their business model, it will not change... end of discusion. HTat is the power of the media (Or heavy regulation, your choice)

[madfloridian]

13. We watched C-Span. Which of our candidates spoke out on it?

Besides Kucinich, and he most certainly did. We heard Byrd's speeches, and we love him.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. Abercrombie, Neal HI

Rham Emamanuel Il

Kennedy

There are others... in the whole progressive and black caucus

[jpgray]

12. I hear all the time "why didn't the Democrats get X out there?"

While it is true that we have a lot of room for improvement on taking the GOP to task, we have done so throughout Bush's entire campaign and presidency. Name me any scandal, any inconsistency, and I bet you I can find a Democrat making a strong public statement pointing it out. Now whether the reason these don't get heard is mostly a Democratic leadership problem or mostly a media bias problem, I can't tell you. I can tell you it is definitely some of each, and that Democrats do attack these things. But we don't do it in a very organized way and we haven't been able to get proper coverage even when we do. Get some sympathetic folks on the FCC and take control of Congress and we might get back to parity. I'd hate to think we need a score of billionaire-funded think tanks to get going on this influence gap.

[K-W]

4. We didnt know it was true at the beginning, hindsight is 20/20

We couldnt have taken a big stand, because it was possible that Iraq was tied to 9/11. And if we had taken a big stand on it, and then evidence had come out proving it, we would lose any shred of credibility and look like we had endangered the country.

[madfloridian]

8. Oh, I really disagree. We should have made THEM prove it to us.

Not just go along. We here at DU knew in 2002, early on. Don't tell me that, we knew.

[Chovexani]

6. I hate listening to people argue on the radio

They just go over the same crap over and over again...which is why I can't stand Janeane's dad and Al's friend.

Also, and call me crazy, but Janeane's dad and Al's friend have damn near every radio and tv outlet to get their views aired on. All we have is AA and sometimes the Daily Show. If I want to hear conservative talking points all I have to do is turn on CNN MSRNC or Faux.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. You are onto something but for the wrong reasons

true the democrats didi not say a thing when the tie between 911 and Iraq was made... or truly didn't they?

For those of us who actually listen to CSPAN we heard this non link WELL BEFORE Dean took the banner. and we heard this from Kucinich and Abercrombie and Rham Emmanuel... but the US Media simply CHOSE not to cover that.

There was been an effort not to have some events covered... such as oh House Floor Speeches...

Now it was not only Democrats who did this, but also somem good Libertarians, such as Ron Paul, whose speech to the House on PNAC is required reading and watching. Of course there are both Senators Kennedy and Robert C Byrd, who took the banner before Dean took it.

Now what Dean managned to do is to break through the very hard wall that the Media has used to prevent this discusion. Oh and what the Pukes have used is classic propaganda techniques, control the media... an effort that started back in oh 1970s, and repeat a lie, ad nauseaum until that lie becomes indistinguishable from truth.

In other words, there is this thing called subtlety on the road to war... and one more question, can you truly hear a tree falling in the forest if you are not there?

This is the case when it comes to the media

[madfloridian]

9. I agree with you about the media.

We always watched C-Span, and I do remember Kucinich and Ritter and their hearings on it.

However, most of our party when on TV avoided the issue. Subtlety is wrong if we are going to war for wrong reasons.

Subtlety is quite nice unless thousands of lives are involved.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. You sure they did not try to say these things on the Teevee

They did... they did say them, and they were lamblasted for it

Need I remind you of the way they treated Cleeland? Need i remind you that Daschle has a Secret Service Detail at all times? You think Daschle's detail is becuase he is liked or because there are real threats for things he said against his life? (For the record the US Secret Service usually does not protect US Senators unless they are the wives of former Presidents)

They did, it just that the few times they were allowed air time they were drowned out....

IT IS THE MEDIA STUPID, to paraphrase Rhandhi Rhodes

[K. F. Gibbons]

10. Identity verses Reason

Like all, and I mean all conservative republicans I know, their self Identity is an extension of and based on a failed political ideology.
For these people to see the truth, they would be forced to call into question their entire self identity.
THE CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICAN IDEOLOGY SATISFIES A WEAK MANS NEED TO FEEL MORE MANLY. WHEN REASON IS INSINUATED INTO AN ARGUMENT WITH ONE OF THEM, THEY RESORT TO CHEAP PERSONAL ATTACKS AND FALSE PATRIOTISM.