Born again Christians?

[murray hill farm]

It seems that if all is forgiven...all drunkenness and incompetence and lies and fraud and AWOL and sins commited..then this becoming born again has a lot of advantages both political and legal. So, just what is involved in becoming labeled as a "born again Christian"? Can a person garner all these social advantages and excuses for past behavior by just standing up and saying "I accept Jesus into my heart or life or whatever"? Is that it? What a deal!!! Now...i am not putting down true born again Christians here, but i am asking just what does it take to become one if one has a lot of reasons to want to erase all unseemly behavior of ones past and would very much like to have that social or political advantage and that " all is forgiven status".

[kayell]

1. Most public figures have to break down weeping for forgiveness on TV

at least that used to be the tradition, ala Jim Bakker. If * is faced with enough evidence in public of all his many sins, can he pull the tears and contrition bit off? Somehow I doubt it.

But he could get away with it anyway, just as he has so far. Apparently it is enough now just to claim to be "born again" and forgiven, as though one knows exactly what Gawd had to say about it, and everyone has to believe you, or face being ostracized as a heathen unbeliever.

Of course another aspect of proving that you are born again is to be a far rw republican, since everyone knows that that is Gawd's party.

[murray hill farm]

2. Do you know anyone who is "born again"

I am wondering what are the ways that one gets to claim that "status"..ha!

[vetwife]

3. I am ...It is a spirtual birth? Please ask what you want..Most folks

here know that I am extremely democratic !
You are forgiven of your sins by God not by man. You also are to go and live by the teachings of Christ. You cannot hold to your born again experience if you continue to lie and cheat and steal. It doesn't work that way. Jesus said, "Go and sin no more". Of course we sin but we have to ask forgiveness and not continue to do the same things over and over. It is really not that much different from catholics or other religions. Martin Luther King and Jimmy Carter are prime and good examples of christianity (born again).
It does not mean, as Cara Faye Tucker so well knows, that Born again does not get you out of trouble in the Law's eyes or Man's eyes. It won't even get you out of trouble in God's eyes if you do not repent and continue down the same path.

[murray hill farm]

5. thanks!

thank you! Yes that is it ..spiritual rebirth..and how beautiful that is..when it is sincere..when it is truely that..a spiritual rebirth..and really how wonderful that is for you and all those who do experience that spiritual ribirth. I so much do respect that experience, but what i am wondering is..how someone who might find that "title" of spiritual rebirth advantagous might use it to provide excuse for past behavior..especially in the political arena..and how is it accomplished? Does one just declare themselves as "born again"? Is that all there is to it? And all is forgiven?

[Cheswick2.0]

7. Absofuckinglutly, we just declare ourselves born again

every few days and that covers our asses. God's too stupid to know if we are sincere or not and the great thing is, though you might think sincerity would then lead to better behavior and you would be right, most of us aren't sincere and again God's too damn dumb to short us out, so we are all going to heaven. You on the other hand are probably not going to heaven because you have not said the magic words.

[murray hill farm]

11. I do respect and admire your beliefs

i am asking about some who might pretend to be born again christians in order to take advantage of it politically.

[vetwife]

9. No..That is not all there is to it and the phony hippocrites

want you to believe that. Responding to post (7) They are not represntative of any thing that I believe God intends for the christian. You can't just simply say, Help me, I want to get into heaven and thats it. Nope it does not work that way, I beleive. I believe your heart has to be troubled and when you reach an age of knowing right from wrong..kinda like the Jewish faith..With the BarMitzva...Only different. When you know right from wrong and that comes pretty early because when you do something that you know deep down is bothering you (your conscience) then you start believing there is something bigger than you in the world. I was brought up one way and searched many bibles. God is not some mean nasty Old man ready to pounce upon you. I started reading scriptures and there was like a tiny yearning in my soul. Very hard to explain. I do not believe you can have this spirtual experience without first knowing that you are doing wrong and want to quit doing it. I just don't believe God will mess with you if you are playing around, which I see this bunch doing. For years and years I believed you could do anything and you would be forgiven. I do not believe that anymore. It is too personal for me to go into but I believe you can throw away that christianity and you are so far removed from God you can't get back to him. The bible even says his spirit will not dwell with you always. So, these people at 1600 PA Avenue are treading on very dangerous ground in my belief and opinion. The very bible they use, says the one thing above all else that GOD HATES and the only thing I see where GOD HATES is causing division and trouble and strife among the people. IT is above murder, theft, lying and all of that.
It also says that we are not to be deceived as we shall know them by their deeds and a good tree bears good fruit and a bad tree bears bad fruit. Trees up there look like their fruit is corrupt. I cannot judge but from the fruits I see, looks to me like they are playing with God and Blasepheming. I feel like they are no better than the Taliban witht the Muslim Faith. God and Jesus loves all.
But he did have a few things to say about beware of those saying Lord Lord, and wolves in sheeps clothings and moneychangers and non peace lovers, and liars.
Hope this helps.

[murray hill farm]

15. So well explained, Vetwife

I guess my question was one of accountability..and since we are talking about personal faith on an individual level, that would be impossible to do other than to judge one by ones actions. What really angers me is that W was able to use a faith in such a way as to garner public forgiveness for past and present sins...and then to move on as if..at least in the political sense..that he is no longer accountable for his behavior since it occured before he declared himself to be "born again". Thanks for that post..and for your personal experience in spiritual rebirth..very beautiful to read.

[Cheswick2.0]

10. All christians are born again

Each of us who believe in the Teachings of Christ are born again in Christ. If you know a christian you know a born again christian.
But I am sure you mean those who proclaim their born again status publically.

[Westegg]

17. Cheswick, I am confused...I believe in many of the teachings of Christ...

...to the extent that I understand them at this point. But I'm not a church-goer. Surely it's not enough to quote and believe some of Jesus' Good Words in the New Testament---case in point, "Sufficient to the day are the troubles thereof," which I was just meditating on yesterday---and then you are a Born Again. Don't you also have to accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior? Don't you also have to accept the miracle of his birth and the divinity of his resurrection? Don't you have to believe that his Second Coming will signal the End Times, etc.? Don't you have to believe that all non-believers will then be cast into the firey pits of Hell? Including my wife, a Jew, and my father, an agnostic, who is nearing death?

Your interpretation of "born again" is the most liberal I've seen in some time. Explain!

[Randers]

19. Maybe it's like the word patriotic

we can let other groups own the definition or... not.

I think the Religious Right has redefined the words for their own purposes. Cheswick's version is more Biblical.

[Westegg]

23. My understanding is that "Fundamentalism" as it's currently known...

...is largely a 20th century creation. And so, in that respect, you are quite right. My father's ancestors---Puritans and pilgrims---came to America in the 17th century to escape religious pursecution. I have many ancestors of the Quaker faith. On my mother's side, I have more than one Lutheran minister. What has happened to Christianity in my lifetime is very distressing to me. Hypocricy and hubris for starters....

[vetwife]

20. Well, its hard to explain

Yes, we do believe that you accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior and that he rose on the third day. Yes you believe that he is the Messiah BUT that is where ideaology starts taking over for some people. No one but no one can say this person or that person is going to an eternity of Hell. Hell was not even invented for man.
It was meant for the Fallen angels and Satan. Who knows what is in a person's heart. Who knows what they are worshipping or even what they believe a few minutes before they die? Inwardly we become Jews when we accept Jesus but that does not mean Jews won't go to heaven. IT clearly states in the Bible Jews do go to Heaven. As far as other religions such as Buddah, or Hindu, or any other faith, that is between them and God, who they perceive as God. I am not God and can only answer for myself and my faith. I cannot dictate to others and cannot say one person's faith is wrong. I can't do tht. My dying will tell. I do find it pretty strange while we are dropping bombs on Iraq and killing over there, God and make no mistake about it if one believes in God..a Hurricane is an Act of God...
I find it strange that in the bible God said he would have his way in the whirlwind. Well we have had some pretty strong category 4 and 5 whirlwinds in Florida and the Bible also says it rains on the just and unjust, also sstrange it keeps hitting the wealthy side of town on point of inpact. Just an observation.

[strategery blunder]

36. The fundies have redefined Christianity here

They attach all kinds of strings to being a Christian, such as non-Christians=infidels that must be converted or killed, you must oppose Roe v Wade (I argued with a fundie over its significance in this election the other day), must be a homophobic, etc. My philosophy regarding this is as follows:

I have accepted Christ as my personal Lord and Savior, and the divinity of His resurrection. However, as I do not have access to the Book of Life, it is not up to me to label every person who doesn't agree with me a non-Christian. A lot of people, I am sure, have accepted Christ, but instead of broadcasting it for everyone to see (as the Pharisees did), they try to live a quiet, Christ-glorifying life and lead others by example, not words.

Neither do the fundies have access to the Book of Life, so it is not their place to determine who is and isn't Christian, either. Only God had access to the Book of Life, and as such, this responsibility falls solely on His shoulders.

Judge not, lest ye be judged.:)O8)

[Randers]

12. There was something about Bush*

going to a Bible Study group in Texas. I don't know if he was re-baptized or any of that. (It was in the show that Frontline or somebody did).

It's one of those things I'm not sure about. It seems very calculated on the one hand - Bush's embrace of the Religious Right and the Christian Coalition, etc. He has certainly used that politically - there is no doubt about it. And the way he is - it is hard to see that he has embraced the Christian philosophy as I understand it.

[vetwife]

13. That is just wrong...You are not supposed to yell I am a christian

or use it politically. Real people with Faith don't have to announce it but the Pharasees did and they were hippocrites !

[kayell]

14. Yes, both sorts

Those who seem to genuinely want to follow the teachings of Jesus (like vetwife), and those who just like the security (whether heavenly or worldly) it gives them.

Disclaimer: I am not a christian, and never will be one, since I don't believe in unseen, unproven mythological creatures. I think that Jesus was probably a real person, and that his teachings were mostly extremely good guides to living, just as I believe that the Buddha was a real person with valuable insights into right living. So I am not the best person to explain "born againness". I have a tendency to turn a very skeptical eye towards many people who claim it, since their actions often do not show much following of Jesus's teachings. Many of the so-called born agains seem far more interested in the retributive parts of the OT than in the accepting a loving parts of the NT.

The Christians that I know best and am closest to do not seem to feel the need to be born again. As Episcopalians, Quakers, and Christian Unitarians, that is not part of their tradition.

[Randers]

8. I think the breaking down and weeping is mostly reserved for

the TV preacher types.

Although I did see a child molester break down and weep in court when he knew the gig was up.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

4. For those who are serious and not just poseurs

(as a lot of the televangelists seem to be), being born again is supposed to be accepting Jesus Christ as your personal savior--and guide for how you conduct your life. (That's the part that the hypocrites leave out.) Since no one is perfect, everyone will screw up once in a while, but the idea is not to let one's self stay in bondage to sin, which, if you're following the Bible and not Victorian culture values, goes far beyond sexuality and use of mind-altering chemicals to include dishonesty, cheating, hatred, selfishness, materialism, prejudice, and a whole lot of things that the televangelists either gloss over or actually encourage.

[Cheswick2.0]

6. yup , Quite a racket we have going...that's exactly how it is and the rest

of you are going to hell.

[matcom]

16. the minute someone tells me they are born again, i ALWAYS ask this questio

"DRUGS or ALCOHOL?"

they always look at me with bewilderment and say "huh"?

"DRUGS or ALCOHOL?"

:D

[Randers]

18. that would certainly explain my siblings

:)

[vetwife]

21. I have never done drugs or alcohol but I will say this in all seriousness

A person who is patriotic does not go around waving a flag. they live it. A person who believes their faith does not scream it and shove it, they try to live it. I had a person tell me one time a long time ago that a cult is anything that one personally does not believe in. think about that..I did and I sure changed some viewpoints I had. It is all personal. Each person is reborn every single day if they think. they rethink a position, a thought, a decision, a lifestyle, and on it goes. The bible says we die daily, in my faith, then that means we have to start over with our thoughts and deeds everyday to strive to be Christlike. So those who just say hey I'm in and never change anything, I feel don't have the goods but I am not God, or Buddah, or any supreme being. I am just me. I have to answer for what I do and for nobody else. I can teach my children but they have to make it pesonal for them. I can pray, I can believe, but I can't make anyone do anything and neither can Bush ! Difference is, I don't want to because I don't believe that way. I beleive the way Martin Luter King believed. I think he was stronger because I would be asking forgivness all the time after they beat me in the head. I would have to really really be sure about my faith before I walked where he did. But he did and to me that made him a true christian. Am I less a chiristian....don't know. I know he was bolder in the spirit and I am bold in the flesh so again it goes back to personal belief and God's scorecard.

[murray hill farm]

22. Just thinking out loud here, but

could bush* have found jesus in some form of treatment center for drug or alcohol abuse? Not an unusual occurance...and "they do say" that his finding jesus and the decision to stop drinking occured at the same time?

[vetwife]

24. Bush in my opinion may have found him but he threw him away

and yes..very possible it was in AA or some other treatment facility.
Also, all those so called imo who are supposed to be chrisitians started church after 9-11 out of fear not from a change of heart. Out of fear. There is also a difference in going to church and going to God.
A church is a building. The real church is in one's heart.

[murray hill farm]

25. possibly manditory?

Court ordered treatment? Also not unusual condition to parole..any way to check on this possibility?

[vetwife]

26. Don't know..I am sure the records like everything else would

be scrubbed. The man does not bear any resemblence to anything I believe.

[murray hill farm]

28. Yep..all records probably purged

I love your story of your spiritual journey...and certainly that man has no resemblence to anything your believe.

[vetwife]

29. Thank you Mexicopat...My husband is Native American

and we are far from perfect but we try to be the same thing on Monday as we are on Sunday. I had a much deeper spiritual journey and not a near death experience...but a journey and I thank you for appreciating it. Its just the way I believe. I have been a believer, a questioner, a preacher's kid, a baptist, and for many years now this is where I am and believe this is where I will be but it is really simple, I just let my conscience be my guide.

[Vincardog]

27. Found Tough LOVE

Bush was out of control until he hit 40. The Daddy Bush had some friends 'intervene'. They told him to straighten up and fly right or he was out of there. You know CUT OFF. He would have to pay his own way from then on. OR maybe go the way of Jimmy Hoffa. Given that choice the Shrub decided to find GOB and start to ACT straight. The key to his act is that he believes GOD SUPPORTS HIM in his work. He does not care if he is on God's Side as long as he claims God is on his side.

[vetwife]

30. That is hitting the nail on the head !

[bleedingheart]

31. You should also add or promiscuous behavior.

cuz I know a whole lot of born again virgins who wanted to forget their sexual past.....in fact a few of my in-laws fit that category..

[leesa]

34. And just being overwhelmed. My brothers became born again because they

simply could not deal with "modern society" It moved too fast and was too complex for simple farm boys. They basically just threw up their hands and said "somebody take care of me". The paternalism of the Fundie movement and the GOP combined was salvation to them. The old testament would think for them and the GOP 'Daddies' would think for them. They could just go to work during their workweek and play/watch sports on the weekends...no brain engagement necessary. If things didn't go well, it was some outside evil force causing it, ie liberals or the devil.

[bobbieinok]

38. I think this is true of many people who are fundamentalists

they join, they watch televangelists, they go to the 'right' church, and they have all the answers..

I know some who were not political until 2000 and their preacher/church/ friends told them W was a christian and christians can only vote republican, because that's the only moral/christian party

[leesa]

32. That's all you have to do.

[murray hill farm]

33. Well...perhaps not realistic, but

if i were a born again christian...i would certainly want to excommunicate GWB....and quick....ha!

[soundfury]

35. HeÕs a phony Christian; nevertheless, É

they identify with him so strongly because he stopped drinking.

[Dob Bole]

37. Born Again Christian here....answers to all your questions

right here in this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=111&topic_id=29899&mesg_id=29899

[Neshanic]

39. Jimmy Swaggert, serial "Born Again" explains it all for you.

You see, being a born again is the coming to the realization or acceptance for you that Jesus is your personal saviour and the Bible is fact from "In the begining" to the end. From that momnet on you live your life for Christ by following the Bible's teachings and the demented beliefs that you have picked up by the particular group that saved you; God hates fags, that kind of specialty group for example.

Your whole previous belief system if any is discarded, and replaced with Bible meetings, and marathon church services at a Fundamentalist Church. All others(non-saved) are Hell bound. not some, not a teeny tiny group, but ALL that do not believe as you and the others. Catholics, Protestants, Mormons, all other world religions will burn in Hell.

That is your baseline. Everyone you meet is treated with a certain respect, but when around your fellow believers, you are in a group that sees all around them today as transitory and a place to just "be" until the second coming.

There are some Bible verses though that address "Serial Saves" and Jesus is not too hip with that.

[Kid_Niki]

40. Remember the fact that he was and is a Bonesman...

Means that Christianity are almost out of his reach! For him to move away from the "money" god and to belive that Jesus Christ is his Lord and Savior is a stretch, and no devout Christian would run for the Presidency!

[juslikagrzly]

41. Maybe this was pointed out earlier,

but I want to stress that not all Christians believe in the "born again" dogma. There are many many "flavors" of Christianity and many, many different beliefs about sin, redemption, faith, etc. We are Presbyterians and believe that God's Grace is an unconditional gift that we do not earn and do not lose. The actual "born again" phrase in the Bible is taken from a conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus and one translation from Aramaic is "born from above".

"Out of grace, certain characteristics of living as a disciple are born. These four essential idicators are not simply pulled out of the air, but are natural and biblical results of God's gift. Understanding God's love as such a gift brings humility because we cannot claim our religious life as any work of our own hands. Gratitude is a right and proper response to an unearned gift. Further, God calls us into community, through which the gift of grace is imparted. Courage is the other indicator of grace in the situations and opportunities for serving God in the world. Such a gift and indicators describe a way of following Jesus not only in the Bible Belt but in our living the faith in this postmodern and dot.com world."

The above quote is from a book written by two Presbyterian ministers. If you want the actual title, PM me. I'm quite connected to one of the authors and don't want to inappropriately plug the book.

[murray hill farm]

43. What a wonderful philosophy of faith you have.

Your definitions must be a part of every faith, I would think. I would hope. I read once that Margaret Mead said that all cultures, no matter how primative or advanced all have the basic equilivant of the 10 commandments..and that all social institutions are modeled after these basic covenants...and she believed too that all humans were basically good..that goodness was the human orientation..and that all humans would evolve toward that goodness. I guess my hope is that we not "miss that Mark" at this very important time in history.

[juslikagrzly]

44. Thanks, it's difficult for me

to be faith-filled, especially with what's going on in this world. But, I do believe that we are all good, it's just hard to see most of the time :-(. I really depend on my minister husband to talk all this out with me. He's seen some pretty bad shit in Central America and Asia, and still believes that the world is basically good. I can't quite get to his level of faith, but you've just gotta keep at it :-).

[Dob Bole]

42. There is a HUGE Question/Answer Thread on this topic....

I started the thread, and I will now plug it again, without the slightest hint of shame whatsoever- since I spent a whole weekend answering questions on it. Here it is:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=111&topic_id=29899&mesg_id=29899