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You know the Americans I'm most proud of these days?

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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-04 03:50 PM
Original message
You know the Americans I'm most proud of these days?
Edited on Sat Sep-11-04 03:55 PM by Selwynn
Life long republicans refusing to vote for Bush. I'm talking about old school folks who for whatever reason have a long standing relationship with the traditional republican ideas (I say ideas because I don't remember them ever actually putting ideas like smaller government, state control or fiscal responsibility into practice). For some people it could be because they really do believe that smaller government would be better, and states should have more control, and taxes should be lower, and more services should be privatized, and rights to guns should not be regulated for free and innocent citizens.

These people don't hate America, or people who disagree with them, or poor people, or minorities - they simply have a certain philosophy about what works best to take care of the nation. I know a lot of people like this whether they are misguided or not. The reason I say I really respect people like this who refuse to vote for Bush is because it shows me that even people who I might disagree with philosophically are capable of rational thought. Republicans who stand up and say, "no sir! this is NOT what I believe in and I refuse to let my party be taken over by neo-conservatives any more!" make me so proud. I know first hand its very hard to go against your tradition, your party or your friends to stand up for what's right. It's especially hard if you feel that the old classical tennants of conservatism are still what you believe are best, and you watch as modern neo-cons and hate-mongers distort that into tyranny.

I'm so proud of my mom - she has been a republican her whole life. But she has always been willing to listen, and been curious and honestly interested in truth. So as I've grown up and gotten more professionally involved in the politics and international relations, she's started listening to me. Recently she told me she could not in good conscience vote for Bush this year, after voting for him in 2000. She told me that her whole life she had just been raised to think that being Republican was the same thing as being a good person, and it wasn't until she started listening to me that she realized that wasn't true. So cool.

My Dad is different. He is probably going to vote for Bush. I don't know how to say this the right way, because I love my Dad, and in life he is one of the most tender, sweetest men I know. But, he's had a stroke, and I dunno... I find that it seems like a lot of times things don't make sense to him, and he gets confused sometimes. He's not an invalid, I fact my dad teaches me things every time I talk to him -- but still, sometimes I think its just not possible for him to really grasp the full political picture.

The only real reason I mention my Dad in this is because a lot of you people are always talking in such all or nothing terms about people who vote republican, as though all republicans are hate-mongering neo-conservative evil people who should be hated. But that's not my Dad. My Dad is just too old and too simple (I hate saying that word, because if you know my father, he is an amazing man) to understand anything more complicated than what he sees on TV and what he's thought all his life.

But people like my mom, and people who I talk to here in Boise who say, "you know, I do believe in conservative politics, limited spending, smaller government, greater state control, more privatized services, a more free market -- but my own party and this administration doesn't even believe in those values. They believe in warfare, poor exploitation, fear-mongering, the destruction of our freedoms, huge government, massive debt, huge endless spending, as well as being dishonest and betraying the trust of the public. I will not support that. I want my party back.

Every time I see a "Republicans for Kerry 04" sticker I think to myself, "there goes one of the biggest heroes of this election year." Even though I don't share the same political as even traditional republicans, I greatly respect this particular minority, courageous enough to say, "not in the name of my party, you don't!" Of course, I'm not like some here, I don't want a country where everyone sees every issue exactly like I do. I don't want a country where there are no conservatives. What I want is a country where there a real conservatives who believe in honest civil public debate and respect diversity of thought - as opposed to neoconservative fascists who want to destroy everyone who does not see it exactly their way. I want a country where good honest more conservative minded folks and good honest more liberally minded folks can sit down together and passionately listen to each other talk about how to make things better.

I'm so fortunate to have the opportunity myself - a friend of mine is a conservative non-bush supporter. He and I disagree on most issues, but he has an IQ in the genius range, and he loves to listen to other honest, sincere people like me talk about what we think. He and I have talked for hours debating the issues, and we've gone away feeling better for it. Sometimes I've changed his mind, too. See - he has the capacity to change his mind, something neo-conservatives have beaten out of themselves. And of course as I mentioned, I've talked a lot with my mom, and she's changed quite a bit in her thinking because of that. In fact, more of my friends are people who disagree with me politically but who respect me and are willing to sit down together and really share perspectives and concerns and listen to each other. I'm telling you - its a great experience. We somehow need to return that kind of statesmanship and dignity to Washington.

But we're not going to do that by adopting the same attitudes of divisiveness and hatred that have so poisoned our nation for too long. That doesn't mean don't fight. That doesn't mean don't pointedly tell the honest truth. It does however mean not overlooking people like my mom, my friend, or even my dad who desire a more civil society and a political landscape in which statesmanship was restored, and it was ok for different people to have different honest opinions about how to do things. I don't want to defeat Bush just to "win." I want to be about something better, and create change in the direction of our country toward a better kind of society. Republicans for Kerry give me hope, because it shows me that change is possible.

Sel

PS - as of this mail my mom left the republican party and is registered as an "independent." She told me she never even gave her politics a second thought until I started talking to her. How cool is that? :D See, real ordinary people who honestly and patiently speak the truth to those willing to listen apparently can make a difference!

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Citizen Daryl Donating Member (693 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-04 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'd have to agree with you.
You couldn't accuse these people of having any kind of agenda whatsoever.
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are_we_united_yet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-04 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
2. I agree
I don't typically agree with Republicans or Conservatives on many issues. Thats OK cause it sets up a dialog (at least the ones who aren't lunatics).

But it is hard to not give respect to these Conservative folks who use their brain and determine a vote for * is not a good thing.
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-04 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
3. excellent post
I look forward to debating the "loyal opposition" once again. I have no problem with people voting Republican IF THEY CAN FIND ONE. When these neo-con usurpers who are eating the GOP from the inside are ejected from the host party, it might recover.
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-04 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. If they can find one.... wow that is so true, heh..
:toast:
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President Fredo Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-04 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
5. Very nice post.
It's too bad that the Republican party has been hijacked by the religiously insane neo-conservative kooks. These people are anything but conservative, and hold very little of the traditional Reublican core beliefs.

I really admire any Republican who will refuse to vote for Bush. That's almost as good as a vote for Kerry, and they probably realize that. More power to them, and I hope they get their party back someday.
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bain_sidhe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-04 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
6. A T-shirt for your mom
:kick: because this is a great story! I've been feeling kinda depressed today, wondering how half of the American people could support the neo-fascist takeover of our country by this neocon/fundamentalist/plutocrat cabal. The most mystifying thing is that MOST of the people supporting bu**sh** are the ones most hurt by his policies. You'd expect many of the greediest rich people (they aren't all greedy, you know) to support these policies, but I keep asking myself, what will it take for the poor and blue-collar/lower middle class to utterly repudiate these bozos? I just don't know. If the last four years hasn't done it, what the hell will?

Then I read a post like this, and I feel better about my country. Yes, far too many people unthinkingly support bu**sh**, but OTOH, many ARE waking up. I just hope there will be ENOUGH of them that wake up SOON enough.

Oh yeah, and that t-shirt...



http://www.cafepress.com/webfaerie.12267717
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PittLib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-04 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
7. I agree ...
I just talked to my stepmother and am grateful that my die-hard republican father has not changed her political stance. She told me that my soon to be 18 year-old brother recently registered as a repub, but will probably vote for Kerry. I think my father and older brother are lost causes ... good people, but way too self interested as they are wealthy, SUV driving, "manly" men. But I completely admire my brilliant conservative doctor friend for joining our fight (and for not being ashamed to tell me).
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Jokinomx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-04 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Welcome to the Underground PittLib... its great to have you aboard...:-)
:toast:
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PittLib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-04 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. why thanks much
Jokinomx! :toast: Cheers!
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Vickers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-04 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
8. I agree, but here is my fear: they are in the voting booth,
and just as they are about to cast that beautiful Kerry/Edwards vote, something in their head remembers one of the myriad stupid bullshit fear factor things that Rove has cast all over the place, and they chicken out and vote for the dumbass.
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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-04 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
9. They know it's the only way to save the party
Edited on Sat Sep-11-04 04:26 PM by proud patriot
IMO A republican vote for Kerry is a vote
to save the republican party .
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-04 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
10. clap clap clap clap clap (nm)
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-04 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
11. Your "own mother...
...never gave politics a second thought..."

That's the problem, eh? Most R's never even think about what they are doing, they just trust in their leaders. Dems, otoh, don't throw their trust out so easily.

Look, I appreciate your point..."Don't bash repiglickans just because they lick the pigs" but what we face today is a war with the myopic creatures we share our land with.

Whatever it takes, using whatever means necessary to beat them into submission, we have a responsibility to bring ruin and damnation upon their puny little, compassionless conservatism.

But yeah, otherwise we oughtta be nice.

*****************

On a like note: Ran into a fella today. He says he voted for Reagan - twice. But, Clinton was one of the "best" and he will vote Kerry, because the R's don't represent anyone but the elite.

Sho' nuff.
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-04 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. No - most people don't think - party leaning makes no difference
Most people in America "never gave their politics a second thought." It's not just a "republican" problem - its an American problem.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-04 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. There you go again
Defending repig-lickers. <grin>

Seriously.... your own mother was an R before she started thinking about it. I mean, c'mon, have you ever met a repig-licker who could give you a really good reason for licking pigs? <GRIN>

Really, seriously serious this time..... it is a big problem, it streches across this great nation. But the Dems I know, almost all, do think about politics and are not put off by politics, but realize just how important their personal political involvement is to the well being of America.

Most R's just want someone else to do everything for them. It's called laziness.

Befree.... of repug-lickers

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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-04 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Sorry to burst your bubble, friend...
...but I know quite a few democrats who are fucking morons. In fact, I know more thinking republicans that I do thinking democrats.

Now - I'm not saying there are more thinking republicans than democrats on the whole. I don't think that. I just happen to know more personally. The point being, ignorance doesn't know party lines. Intolerance and hatred doesn't know party lines. And people acting like asshats doesn't know party lines.

I know more than a couple traditional republicans who very clearly and reasonably explain why they are republicans. It boils down to an ideological difference, but it certainly isn't stupid.

Anyway, I'm more interested in focusing on discussions where people are looking to maintain some basic civility. I'm tired of getting involved with the people that don't want to do much more than hate and name call the other side. I'm sick of that. There are evil men in power, and they have taken over the republican party and driven it to extremism, and they need to go. But I'm just tired of all the self-righteous condescending arrogant name calling, bitter, hateful bullshit going on in the name of "justice" and "democratic" principles and a "better America." That's not the America I want.

Have a good night,
Sel
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. "Fuckin Morons"...<unquote>
Then:

But I'm just tired of all the self-righteous condescending arrogant name calling, bitter, hateful bullshit going on in the name of "justice" and "democratic" principles and a "better America." That's not the America I want.

No bubble burst here. But your bubble seems about to burst.

No one is more sick of the use of derogatory terms. However, when you get into a knife fight, it's better to have a gun, eh?

The pig-lickers called me a commie-liberal, pinko-enviro, baby-killing, nigger-loving, love-it-or-leave it, no good American.

And I'm supposed to turn the other cheek, I know. I know. Been there, done that. My cheeks are hurting.

Now, I am not a classic style writer, as opposed to you dear, Sel, so my defense is to use terms that I can fight with, down in the dirt with the pig-lickers.

I really don't need you yelling down at me telling me how to fight, now do I?

"...a few democrats who are fucking morons" <unquote>


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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. I assumed you would say this, though I had hoped better
Edited on Sun Sep-12-04 12:37 PM by Selwynn
So predictable. There's always someone who disingenuously fails to appreciate the difference between talking about what we know and governing what we do. What we know and what we do are two very different things. I may know someone is a moron, that doesn't mean I need to go up to them in real life and abuse them because of it. If I had specifically attacked someone by name to you, causing him embarassment and a direct personal attack. Then we could talk. But using the generic counter-exmple that I know some people who are morons is not at all contradictory with my desire to avoid real-life situations in which I act exactly like a freeper simply becuase I think I'm right and I think they're wrong. Big difference.


If I was to carry on a conversation with these "fucking morons" as I said, then I would do so in a certain way - a way that did not act exactly like the neo-conservative thugs do to others. In talking to you, outside of an actual conversation, where we are having a detached and analytical discussion about the nature of things, I choose to illustrate a point - that point is that I know just as many self professing democrats in real life who are idiots, and that idiocy is knows no party lines.

That doesn't mean I would choose, in my real life, to go up to even idiots and lower myself to that level and also act like a fucking moron. There is a big difference between commenting in a safe context that I know people who are morons, without naming them or getting into specifics, and developing a public attitude of interaction which acts as though its "OK" to treat people we don't agree with exactly like the people we despise do. I am of course free to think whatever I want. In writing to you I'm telling you how I think, and what I know.

How we should act on that knowledge is not the same thing as having the knowledge. I happen to know democrats who are idiots. How I act toward them however, is conditioned by a few concerns, one of them is that there are certain kinds of actions that I believe are wrong, not matter who does them. I don't want to do those things, even to people I know are idiots, whether those idiots are left or right.

I'm not telling you how to fight. I'm telling you what I think is right. You're free to do whatever you want, and I'm free to ignore it if I don't think it has any value. And there's a big difference between what we think about others' and what we do to others.

So yes, as I say - I know a few democrats who are fucking morons. That doesn't justify me in going to them in real life and acting exactly like a freeper would in my treatment of them. What I know about them and how I act toward them are two separate issues. My point stands: ignorance doesn't know party lines. Intolerance and hatred doesn't know party lines. And people acting like asshats doesn't know party lines.

Anyway, I'm done with this conversation now. The last word is yours, this is not the kind of discussion I choose to devote my time to. Nor if I feel like continuing to contribute to this hijacking of a thread that is completely unrelated to this converation.



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Jokinomx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-04 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
12. My Dyed in the Wool Republican Father in Law... isn't voting for * !!!
He won't vote for Kerry, out of habit I suppose...but at least he isn't giving chimp his vote. Nor will his wife as she will follow his lead. I wonder what the percentage of staunch republicans that won't vote republican this time actually is?

Good luck to you and your Family.. you all sound like a great one!!

:toast:
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-04 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
17. VERY nice post, Selwyn -- lots to think about in it too
Edited on Sat Sep-11-04 06:06 PM by Eloriel
(IOW: provocative). Thanks.

Edited to add: Here's what I say -- Bring back Rockefeller Republicans!!
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Misunderestimator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-04 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
21. Life-long Republican Voting for Kerry: My Dad.
He also changed his registration to independent. Good job on your Mom! :thumbsup:
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