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The Vietnam War is over. So why are we still "fighting" it?

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FlemingsGhost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-04 05:15 PM
Original message
The Vietnam War is over. So why are we still "fighting" it?
Are we as a nation ever going to address the fact that the most pressing concerns presently facing this nation, didn't originate thirty years ago? Kerry's medals, Bush's whereabouts ... In the end, what difference does it make? While examining the achievements and/or failures of two young men, in a time of great political unrest, can indeed help to define character, it shouldn't come at the expense of ignoring the two-ton elephant slam-dancing in the living room.

Don't look now folks, but we are hopelessly mired in--and losing badly--a new and improved, ill-conceived military quagmire. Young men and woman are dying on foreign soil as I type. Here at home, another hard-working American just received a pink slip, and likely lost health care benefits for their family. A child has just been left behind. And now, another ...

The joke is on us, America. The latest distraction working to polarize us, isn't new at all. It is a divide and conquer greatest hit. A rehashing of the past, brought to you by some of the very folks who engineered its conception. And it's working like a charm.

The Vietnam War is over, and we lost. Isn't it about time we all "got over it?" There are far more pressing issues to be addressed.
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Spinzonner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-04 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
1. We're not fighting the VN war over
Edited on Sat Sep-11-04 05:25 PM by Spinzonner
This is about the personal histories and character qualities of two men who served their country - or claimed to do so - during those days and how their attitudes and honesty about it reflect on their current traits and qualifications.

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FlemingsGhost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-04 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. The Vietnam War was, in fact, us fighting ourselves.
Edited on Sat Sep-11-04 05:35 PM by DemsUnite
We are using the military records of two men to do it all over again.

Meanwhile, Rome burns.

(edited for clarity)
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President Fredo Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-04 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. Remember when Clinton was in office?
It was all about character. How we were under the "rule of law".

Well, what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Did Clinton lie about a blow job? Did Bush lie about his National Guard service?

Kerry volunteered. Bush not only pulled strings to get his cushy Guard slot, he also failed to honor his commitment.

But Vietnam has very little to do with it. It's all about character. Bush has none. Kerry's got it, in abundance.
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unblock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-04 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
2. dude, we're still fighting the CIVIL war.
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billbuckhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-04 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. When one looks at the Retro-Metro map of the nation the civil war
situation is quite striking.
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-04 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
4. Because we lost, we got our asses handed to us
we were driven out. Some guys never wanted to admit it and move on, just like the south and the civil war.
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Blue Wally Donating Member (974 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-04 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
5. Yes, I agree
Unfortuantely, our candidate made his Vietnam service the cornerstone of the convention.

What was needed was a Democratic "Contract With America" saying exactly and specifically what we would do if we were given power. We didn't do it and are stcuk with argueing over incidentals. Regardless as to your popinion of newt Gingrich, he made his party hew to the contract which they made even though we were able to thwart a lot of it. His "Contract" was a stellar idea and the people lapped it up. We need to state unequivically exactly where we stand and what we will do. Unfortunately, we haven't done it.
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-04 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
6. That's it; it's easier than deeling with the real issues
and more fun. I mean everybody can have an opinion on it, based on some guy they worked with or some movie they saw. Beats the heck out of trying to figure out why the economy is tanking or why the schools suck.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-04 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
8. You are right--we are still fighting it.
The people in power now are the ones which were junior staffers for the Nixon crew. We never resolved Viet Nam as a nation. We brought the troops home and swept the whole mess up into a tidy littl pile and shoved it under the carpet. We didn't talk about the ugliness, the anger, the injustices of the war or the draft, or the horrible legacy in military families (agent orange, PTSD, etc.). We just pretended it never happened. All of those unresolved issues have bubbled to the surface and are playing themselves out in this election primarily because we are now in another war based on a lie, I believe. What does it mean to serve? What is patriotism? What is dissent? What is strength? What is a war crime? What is justice? Who is a freedom fighter and who is an insurgent? What is our role in world? Who died and appointed us "god"?
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-04 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
9. The Vietnam War is not quite over yet, still promises to keep
2001 Hmong Population and Education in
the United States and the World
August 24, 2001
Researched and Collected by Dr. Vang Pobzeb

From 1975 to 1991, more than 500,000 people in Laos fled and became international political refugees in the world because of the legacy of the Vietnam War in Southeast Asia.


The Communist Lao and Vietnamese governments have been exterminating Hmong people in Laos since the end of the Vietnam War in 1975 and are still doing so today, because of Hmong people cooperated with the U.S. government during the Vietnam War. In 2001, witnesses in Laos have reported that many thousands of Communist Vietnamese soldiers are cooperating with the Communist Lao government of the Lao People's Democratic Republic (LPDR) to conduct an ethnic cleansing war, genocide and human rights violations against Hmong people in Laos. Therefore, we appeal to and call upon Hmong American intellectuals, educators and the general public to unify our leadership strategies and efforts in order to save the lives of Hmong people in Laos. We call upon all Hmong people to unify and work together to save the lives of Hmong people. Power politics in the world and global actors are remaining silent on the genocide against Hmong people in Laos because they are concerned with economics and commercial goods for themselves. They do not really care about human rights violations and genocide in Laos and in other parts of the world.

There are about 300,000 Hmong American people in the United States in 2001.


In 2001, there are approximately 80,000 Hmong American people in Minnesota; and 80,000 Hmong Americans in Wisconsin.


About 40,000 Hmong Americans moved from California to Minnesota, Wisconsin, and other states between 1996 and 2001.


About 70,000 Hmong Americans still live in California in 2001.


Many Hmong Americans moved from California to Minnesota and Wisconsin and other states because of the problems of welfare reforms and unemployment problems

http://www.laohumrights.org/2001data.html

Jack Austin Smith, a Vietnam Veteran and a retired career soldier


Writing to an American who was confused about the Hmong people, Jack Austin Smith, a Vietnam Veteran and a retired career soldier, wrote the following in 1996 (quoted from his e-mail to me, with permission):

The war in Vietnam was fought on several fronts and I served in two them. The main American battle ground was in the Southern end of South Vietnam. In order for the North Vietnamese forces to fight us there, it was necessary for their supplies and troops to go through Laos and Cambodia on the Ho Chi Minh Trail, and Laos was controlled by a Pro-Communist Government at that time. Therefore America was not allowed to have any forces on the ground, although we were allowed to bomb and attack North Vietnamese troops with our aerial forces. About 99% of the combat forces on the ground were Hmong irregulars who were persuaded by Americans to forget about being neutral, and to fight the N. Vietnamese regulars (not relatively poorly trained Viet Cong guerrilla forces). We supplied air cover, but every combat trooper knows aircraft can't take and hold ground. We depended on the Hmongs to do this. Without modern arms, without medical help.
After the fall of Saigon we pulled out of Southeast Asia and left the Hmongs to continue the fight without air support. When we left, the Hmong had to fight both the Laotians and the N. Vietnamese. They could not fight tanks, heavy artillery and aircraft with rifles. A great many Hmongs were slaughtered in their villages. Many were slaughtered at airfields where they waited for evacuation planes that never came. A few were able to fight every foot of the way across Laos and cross the Mekong River into refugee camps in Thailand where they were further mistreated by rather corrupt UN and Thai officials. Out of a estimated 3,000,000 prewar Hmong population less than 200,000 made it to safety. One other ill informed or stupid writer said "they were all gone" meaning, I guess, that the combat Hmongs were all dead, they are wrong. Most of the survivors are in Australia, France and here among us.

Now I don't know about those heroes who have never heard a shot fired in anger, but I am embarrassed that my country so mislead these people. The Hmongs gave up literally everything for us: their country, their homes, their peaceful way of life, most of their families, everything that we would cherish. We promised them our continued support and then we bugged out.

You mentioned having relatives who fought in Vietnam and I hope they all survived. However their chances would have been much less if the Hmongs hadn't intercepted over 50% of the N. Vietnamese troops and supplies. If you truly loved your relatives, you should be grateful for the Hmongs' sacrifices.
http://www.jefflindsay.com/hmong.shtml
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-04 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
10. The started this shit in the primaries, accusing Kerry and VVAW
of planning assassinations, that was the first blow, followed by the crap about the VVAW and the ribbons vs. medals, with a brief recess from Vietnam to accuse Kerry of bonking Alex Polier, then back to Vietnam, although when Dean surged ahead they left Kerry alone for a little bit to concentrate on Dean, which is where the Dean scream got set up.

This was their game plan, their step by step "take him down" plan, which has been going on for six months. We can choose to respond to it or not. I don't think Kerry has a choice but to respond, but he wasn't the one that started this crap.
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Carla in Ca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-04 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
12. I agree with most of what you say, but
For the people that lived through it, there is still a lot to be said. A lot of issues were not resolved because, at the time, no one wanted to talk about them. We treated our returning soldiers disgustingly, we turned our backs on them.

When you hear most people talk about Iraq do you notice how they never talk against the soldiers? That is a lesson learned from the Vietnam War. We still have a few more issues to settle, but we will be a better country for it.
It never hurts to look back to see where you are going.
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Gyre Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-04 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
13. Because bushco made it an issue
By calling into question Kerry's fitness to command the US. Kerry points to his obvious credentials which derive from the VN war, which are attacked as bogus by the WH and it's quislings. Obviously, the accusers credentials to criticize then become an issue (to wit; credibility). Law school 101: Attacking Credibility of a Witness.

Gyre
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-04 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. yes, he had 2 choices respond or don't respond.
gee,wonder which choice is the best...
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-04 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Rove war plan.
Attack the opponents strengths. Had Kerry not brought up Nahm at all at the Dem Convention the SB Liers would have still moved forward with their smear.

What is a war crime?


What is a war crime?
By Tarik Kafala
BBC News Online


Article 147 of the Fourth Geneva Convention defines war crimes as: "Willful killing, torture or inhuman treatment, including... willfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health, unlawful deportation or transfer or unlawful confinement of a protected person, compelling a protected person to serve in the forces of a hostile power, or willfully depriving a protected person of the rights of fair and regular trial, ...taking of hostages and extensive destruction and appropriation of property, not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly."


This, international lawyers say, is the basic definition of war crimes.

The statutes of The Hague tribunal say the court has the right to try suspects alleged to have violated the laws or customs of war in the former Yugoslavia since 1992. Examples of such violations are given in article 3:

* Wanton destruction of cities, towns or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity
* Attack, or bombardment, by whatever means, of undefended towns, villages, dwellings, or buildings
* Seizure of, destruction or willful damage done to institutions dedicated to religion, charity and education, the arts and sciences, historic monuments and works of art and science
* Plunder of public or private property.

The tribunal defines crime against humanity as crimes committed in armed conflict but directed against a civilian population. Again a list of examples is given in article 5:

* Murder
* Extermination
* Enslavement
* Deportation
* Imprisonment
* Torture
* Rape
* Persecutions on political, racial and religious grounds.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1420133.stm


http://www.paranoidlarry.com
http://www.globalresearch.ca
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/index.jsp
http://www.madcowprod.com
http://www.deepblacklies.co.uk
http://www.ndp.ca
http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com

* The present US Govt., Military, CIA, private contractors have committed plenty of War Crimes in Iraq, Getmo and Afghanistan.

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