Why do so many here pounce on any gesture of patriotism?

[UdoKier]

I've seen it a number of times now, whether it's "somebody flying a US flag" or a "yellow ribbon", some DUer complaining that it's "right-wing". I realize that this is not the America we grew up in anymore, but I don't fault others for not realizing it, or wanting to realize it, but that doesn't make them right wing or war supporters. My dad is a loyal democrat and a DEFINITE Kerry voter, and he flies his American flag on every national holiday, just as he always has.

Not everyone thinks that's "uncool"

Why do some people immediately pounce on people making nonpartisan gestures of patriotism? If I don't see Bush sticker or a jingoistic slogan with it, I don't hold it against them.

[TomClash]

1. I think it is very cool

It's not like most of these people are singing "The Internationale" so what's wrong with the flag? I tell people who are left of center "it's your country too." Why concede the flag to them?

We're the ones who cared most about the soldiers after Vietnam.
We're the ones who care whether those soldiers live or die.
We're the ones who most often serve the public interest rather than narrow private interests.

It's our flag too.

[swag]

2. I certainly can't speak for everyone, but I don't consider flying

the flag to be uncool or whatever. I have three very patriotic bumperstickers on my car in fact. One is for John Kerry, one is for Kerry Edwards, and one is for democraticunderground.com. All of these stickers have patriotic themes and motifs, as does my Kerry/Edwards yard sign.

I think the knee-jerk jingoism of flying a plastic flag on a monster SUV in reaction to a war of lies, though, is bankrupt, laughable, and ripe for scorn and ridicule.

[sam sarrha]

3. it is more strange that i don't see it or do it... tho i do not like to see

Icons become excuses for needless war and suffering.. and to smoke screen the truth with bandwagon tactics.

[teryang]

4. I wasn't aware of this phenomenon

Did someone here criticize your dad?

[UdoKier]

17. No, it's just generic comments like this...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2341627


(Complaint about the Yellow ribbons)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2340768&mesg_id=2340768

("Freeper" family holding flags and signs "we will never 4-get" - unsophisticated, but apparently not overtly partisan or pro-war)

Or this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2341778

(motorcycle "thugs" descend on ground zero)


None of these people display their feelings in the way I would, but if they're not overtly partisan or pro-war, why attack them for grieving 9-11 or burning a figurative candle "for the troops"?


There are a lot of people of this ilk who WOULD be open to voting for Kerry if they felt assured he would keep them safe. They don't check buzzflash, bartcop and DU every day. A lot of them are just plain scared.

I can't stand republicans, but I don't hate on people just for being ignorant and scared.

[Obamarama]

22. I started one of the threads you referenced above.....

It was the one about the "freeper family..."

The reason these people revolt me is not because they are being patriotic or exercising their first ammendment rights.

I have no way to prove it, but upon seeing them I would bet you money that while waving the flag and shouting patriotic slogans out of one side of their mouth, they would not hesitate to tell me that as a gay person my relationship doesn't deserve to be recognized and that my relationship is a threat to the "sanctity" of their marriages. Tell me, please, what the fuck is patriotic about believing someone else shouldn't have the same legal rights as anyone else in the country? That's right...it's NOT patriotism. That smacks of something called NATIONALISM. So hence my disgust with them and their maudlin displays.

By proclaiming their support for American democracy and at the same time beleiving my civil rights have no validity in their red, white and blue world ABSOLUTELY opens them up to derision and scorn.

As I said, I have no idea what their views on gay marriage or legalized domestic partnerships are, but I'm pretty confident that would have been the case.

[UdoKier]

23. You may be entirely right about their attitudes...

...but to assume that based on their appearance is pretty much the same stereotyping we're supposed to decry, right?

I don't know WHAT the motivation is for people like that. Maybe they believe all the pablum on Fox News, and are outraged at all the protesters "blaming America first", so they want to go out and fight some illusory "liberal threat". Beats the hell out of me.

I get where you're coming from on that specific case, and I'm pretty sure you get where I'm coming from. (I'm sure you didn't throw an egg at them or anything, so I'm not going to make a federal case out of it!)

I mention my dad because if you were to see him in his Ford Taurus with the US flag sticker, his bermuda shorts and black socks and dress shoes, you might assume he's a freeper, especially when he's puttting on his obsessively trimmed lawn. But he's not. He's a great liberal democrat, and a lifelong inspiration to me. He worked for 35 years as an enforcement officer then regional director at the department of labor, cracking down on the bastards who don't pay minimum wage or treat employees fairly, so he learned a helluva lot about the glory of capitalism, and he taught me a lot.

You can't go strictly on appearance.

[jdj]

47. it's the boot in the ass courtesy of the red, white and blue that

we oppose, not the red, white and blue itself.

[enki23]

5. because, in today's america...

flying the flag proudly is analogous to waving pom poms at a funeral. i wish it didn't feel that way, and it doesn't always. but most of the time, it does.

now... if it's at half mast, it doesn't bother me at all. at half mast, the flag perfectly symbolizes how i feel about my country. but flying the flag with unearned pride? it's ugly. today's america has nothing to be proud of. maybe someday we can earn it again.

[smirkymonkey]

32. Great Analogy...

I have never been outwardly patriotic, but there is something about the flag waving that repels me on a visceral level. The flag has become not the symbol of a proud America, but of the nationalistic right wing. Right or wrong, that is my association.

To be honest, I am not proud to be American these days at all. In fact, I am ashamed.

[G_j]

34. cluster bombs , torture, lies, theft, deceit, blackmail, threats,

war profiteering, racism, facsism....

fly the flag upside down

[OneBlueSky]

6. "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." . . . Samuel Johnson . . .

and . . .

"You'll never have a quiet world till you knock the patriotism out of the human race." George Bernard Shaw

[jeff30997]

7. On your sig pic, Mike Malloy seems to have been burned...

By a nuclear blast.

[Quetzal]

8. I saw a Yellow ribbon with Kerry written all over it the other day

And I have a Socialist friend who has one as well - he just wants to support them by making sure they come home alive instead of in body bags.

[kayell]

9. I have not seen this either

The only jumping on displaying the flag I have seen is people who object to the use of the flag as an item of worship, or to those who use the flag to symbolize and further the spread of rw nationalism. There have been numerous threads over the last few years on reclaiming the flag.

[Lefty48197]

10. We Democrats hate America, that's why.

I thought the right wingers had made that perfectly clear.

[AlCzervik]

11. I have no issue with Patriotism, it's jingoism thats in full force now

[Bunny]

16. Thank you! Jingoism is the key.

Nothing wrong at all with flying the flag at the appropriate times. It's these doofuses that have four or five of them on their car, alongside their "My country - love it or leave it" bumper sticker. The old "we'll put a boot up your ass" mentality. I resent that the right wing have highjacked the flag and turned it into a agressor symbol.

[Dangerman]

42. "I resent that the right wing...

have hijacked the flag and turned it into a aggressor symbol."

You took the words right out of my mouth.

[July]

53. Speaking of aggression,

that's what I sense whenever "The Star-Spangled Banner" is played before an athletic contest and isn't even over before people start yelling, "Woo-hoooooo!!! U.S.A.!!!" National anthem (usually with flag) as an excuse for beating one's chest. Freaks me out every time.

[UrbScotty]

12. Amen!

Thank you for posting this.

John Kerry seems more patriotic than his opponent.

[greekspeak]

13. Here are some "gestures of patriotism" I have a problem with

1) Violations of the flag code-this includes Dubya signing the flag, making the flag into clothing, and flying tattered flags off the antennae of one's car.

2) Backing up one's "patriotism" with such garbage as "love it or leave it," "move to Iraq if you don't like my fascist nationalism," and E-mails that suggest real patriots are those a) who like to drink beer and burp in others' faces, 2) think faggots are a scourge on earth, and 3) that mass consumption of cheap crap from the dollar store is a god-given right.

3) Disguising hate as patriotism: a) Those (brownskinned people, towelheads, papists, libruls, queers, athiests, immigrants, feminists, frogs) are "ruining this country."

4) Confusing dissent with hatred of America-* is God's messenger and America's savior, and if you say otherwise you should leave. Those librul celebrities need to shut their mouths and support the war in Iraq or move out of America.

None of these are patriotism, but it is what passes as patriotism these days. These are what I have problems with. Sticking 10000 flag stickers on your car and telling everyone you do not agree with that they do not deserve to live in America is not patriotism. It is this sort of "patriotism," or better yet jingoistic nationalism, that most of us have a problem with.

[Ms. Clio]

24. Putting an American flag sticker on the gas tank of an enormous SUV

I had a problem with that one.

A monstrous H2 with some sort of opaque Flag decal in the entire back window (not sure what that process is called?)--yeah, I had a problem with that one, too.

[JimmyHoffa]

36. SUV?

Lots of politicians drive SUV's. Democrats and Repugs. Soccer moms and college kids. Suv's are not the problem. It is the hypocrites who drive them and then preach about abusing oil and rising oil prices.

[VOX]

45. Have anybody specific in mind?

Just wondering.

[Ms. Clio]

49. Good news, Jimmy, we finally found your grave!

[LiberalPersona]

14. I don't call

flag waving patriotism, but I know what you mean.
Actually, my mother and sister are democrats that will vote for Kerry, and they both put two "support our troops" flag ribbon magnets on their cars.

[Hornito]

15. If this does indeed exist, I think it's because the right-wing has

co-opted patriotism, and its symbols. As an example, in the run up to the invasion, Repugs were flying flags, and shouting for war.

I consider myself a true Constitution supporting patriot, and have given much to my country, but I am sick to death of what the right-wing has done to our nation, under cover of patriotism. My (our) flag no longer holds the meaning it once did for me. It is now a symbol of stupidity and mindless aggression, and of all the things the wingers have done, that one makes me the most angry. Essentially, they have betrayed this nation, and what it (used to) stands for.

We need to take OUR flag back, and restore its meaning back to greatness.

[Dangerman]

43. Amen to that

[leesa]

18. Because it too often represents a sick sort of nationalism

Many of these people think patriotism has something to do with flags and yellow ribbons. It doesn't.

If you are into symbols and want to fly a flag, go ahead, but don't describe yourself as patriotic BECAUSE you fly a flag.

[UdoKier]

19. I agree with what you're saying.

But I don't blame people for their ignorance. I personlly don't think "patriotism" is as much of a virtue as "humanism" anyway. I've never understood why we arre supposed to only care about the well being of our own countrymen and the rest of the world can go to hell.

But at the same time, I understand the base visceral emotion they're displaying, and it's not always about jingoism or right-wing politics. Sometimes it's a way of trying to show national pride, even though you know your country has been deeply hurt, and is spiraling towards insanity. A way of saying you believe in the idea of "America" in spite of everything. I'm sure that's how my dad feels, so I don't like to ascribe negative emotions to people unless I'm absolutely sure that's how they feel.

[sam sarrha]

20. I support our troops, i have a Blue star on my door..bring em all home NOW

[AndyTiedye]

21. I Don't Fly the Flag Now Because...

...so many Republicans have wrapped themselves in the flag
that I can't find one that isn't already taken, and it wouldn't
be very nice to leave some poor Repub standing around naked ;-)

[QC]

25. Because they have swallowed the Republican propaganda

that insists that the GOP holds a monopoly on patriotism.

[Catshrink]

26. I bought red, white, and blue borders and stars for the Young

Democrats bulletine board at school. I want to show the kids it's okay to be patriotic and democratic. We re taking our flag back! I'm sick of "TARS" (TeenAge RepublicanS) brandishing the flag like they own it.

It's ours!!! The kids enthusiastically put the bulletin board together and it looks great!

[J Williams]

27. It's because of the false claim that Patriotism = Support for Bush

Since the 1960s when the American flag was coopted by the Right as the "opposite" of the popular peace sign, the flag has been used to symbolize right-wing conservative views.

Many progressives and liberals have tried to point out how wrong the Right has been to claim the flag as their own, just as it is wrong for the Right to claim God is on their side, and just as it is also wrong to label those on the Left of being unpatriotic.

The problem was caused, and has been perpetuated, by the Right, which is simply WRONG.

[G_j]

35. and that is the way people see it if you display it.

sad but true

The swastika once had other meanings too. Hitler took care of that.

[July]

54. Yes, and love of country = love of Bush.

Therefore, being against Bush = being against the nation.

In their minds, Bush IS the nation.

[UTUSN]

28. Stand Back. Let Me Handle This.

(Sidebar to the premise of the thread: I don't see the phenom of anti-patriotism here.)

But regarding the age-old tension between how wingnuts and Lefties practice patriotism:

This goes to the crux of the two different mindsets. While we DO fly the flag and recite the pledge, we are aware that the practices are SYMBOLIC. Wingnuts are LITERAL minded. They believe the material the flag is made of is ITSELF an object of IDOLATRY. They don't "get" the concepts of free speech, civil disobedience, or say, atheism as part of religious freedom.

That's why we can burn the flag as a SYMBOLIC gesture while wingnuts go into cardiac arrest over us doing it.

As somebody said in a post above, some of us might be in shell shock so that when we see somebody else flying the flag we might jump to the conclusion that they are wingnuts who would otherwise be perfectly willing to abrogate the rights of others.

[jonnyblitz]

30. good post

:thumbsup:

[Obamarama]

31. Very well put UTUSN...

n/t

[jdj]

46. It's the hypocrisy, not the patriotism, and it's racism, not nationalism

30,000 people are dead for no damn good reason thanks to this jingoism, so 'scuse us for being a little touchy.

[jonnyblitz]

29. i have a red,white and blue t-shirt that says FUCK BUSH

in HUGE letters so i guess I am not afraid to show my patriotism. :P

[shadu]

41. You, sir, are a patriot!

[Philostopher]

33. I hear what you're saying.

And I agree with other posters that it's the fact the right wing has attempted to co-opt 'patriotism' and conflate the flag with being a Republican and supporting Bush*.

My mother, a lifelong Democrat, puts the flag out on national holidays. My father, also a Democrat, did the same. My dad was also a veteran, but you know what? While I remember him talking about being in the Navy, I didn't find out until he was in the ground, and the VA came and put a flag next to his headstone, that my father was considered a WWII vet. You see, he never left the U.S. -- and he enlisted right after he turned 18, late in the war. He never told us, though he must have known. My dad, who had no more hubris about it than those who served in peacetime, was angered by the whole flag-slapping thing back during GWI -- he said it was disrespectful to put it in many of the places he saw it, and he also was annoyed to see flags left out in the rain, allowed to drag the ground, etc. He did not, however, see the benefit in making the burning of a flag a federal crime -- even to him, and he was fairly conservative on some social issues, it was a First Amendment issue, not a patriotic one.

I think we've been pushed into an uncomfortable situation over such displays. Liberals didn't choose it, however. Coopting the icons of the country gives conservatives the power to declare us unpatriotic, and they love having the power to do that.

I have a neighbor around the corner who has a flagpole in his front yard. He flies the flag like my pop did -- he takes it down when it rains, he takes it down before sunset, that sort of thing. I just figured he was a textbook ex-military Republican -- especially when he lowered it to half-staff when Reagan died. You know what, though? He put it back up at the end of the first week, as soon as Reagan was in the ground. So it's entirely possible that I made a false assumption, or else that he has his own ideas about the definition of patriotism. Either way, I think we often make false assumptions about people because of the propaganda we're hit with constantly about supporting the troops, our country, and our nation being equivalent with supporting Bush*.

[mhr]

37. Because Support For Country Has Been Associated With Support For Bush

One can love your country but HATE your leader.

Flag waving is fine as long as it does not indirectly support and endorse the polices and of a misguided and inept leader.

[VLC98]

38. Flying a flag for the 1st time.

I'm British, my husband is American and, although we've lived in the US for half of our marriage, we started flying the Stars & Stripes for the first time this year. My hubby is a low-key kind of guy (wouldn't have married him if he was an ugly American) and felt having the flag on our home would be insensitive to me. (I get very homesick). Anyway, fast forward to 2004...we now live in base housing and he has a Kerry sticker on his car, sitting in the driveway, so up goes the flag. We won't have anyone accuse Kerry supporters of not being patriotic.

[sal]

39. I only see members "pounce" on jerks.

I'm not sure what you mean. I think most people here would give their lives for their country. That's why we are here expressing dissent, the purest form of patriotism, in the face of the current fascist assault on democracy.

[LWolf]

40. I don't pounce on it.

I usually don't make any comment at all; just pass it by.

I'm not patriotic. Just a blunt truth. But I don't jump on people who are, or judge them in any way. Unless they are calling nationalism patriotism, or wrapping their atrocities in the American flag to hide under the veneer of patriotism.

I'm matriotic. I love my mother earth and all the living things on her. I'm loyal to the freedom, health and prosperity of the whole.

[Dangerman]

44. It's not that I hate this country...

Is just a fear that any time I may wave a flag, I acted like a Bush supporter and a pro-war nut, which I am neither.

Listen, I promise I never salute the American flag the rest of my life UNLESS GEORGE W. BUSH IS OUT!

The only way we can take our flag back is to derail those who abuse it for their right-wing extremist agenda (i.e. the Bush crime family).

[manic expression]

48. I, for one...

am ashamed of the American flag and how it is being used. Almost all the time, people who are obviously patriotic embody everything that is wrong with America. They are usually self-righteous, hateful, ignorant and pompous. There has been little, if not nothing, to be proud about with the American flag in recent history (and history, in general).
"So wave your flag with pride, especially the white part"

[BonjourUSA]

50. This word "patriotism" makes my hairs stand on end

With "religion", It was and it's often the origin of bloodshed

[Swamp Rat]

52. Oh yes me too, because it means so much more than folks realise.

Patri- plus -ism.

Some Americans have chosen to go down the same path as did Europeans in the Middle Ages. This should scare everyone here but it doesn't seem to matter to some, and others even revel in it. Le homme armeé! Off we go to fight the Crusades II!

[JSJ]

51. because pandering is suppose to be a republican ploy nt