Does The Sight Of A Desecrated American Flag Disturb You?

[arwalden]

Poll question: Does The Sight Of A Desecrated American Flag Disturb You?

Discussion: What's the harm? Why should anyone care one way or the other what someone does to an American flag that they own? Is the American flag an object to be worshiped? Is it holy? Is it sacred? What makes *this* banner so special? Why is the United States flag more deserving of protection than any other icon?

-- Allen

[sniffa]

1. onLy if it's kid rock doing the desecratin

otherwise.... who cares? i have more important issues to attend to.

fLag burning is about # 11,239 on my List of priorities.

[mmonk]

2. The real desecration

isn't being done by flag burners.

[swag]

3. Only if it's someone from the Cheney-Bush junta desecrating the flag

by wrapping their scummy selves in it.

[eyesroll]

4. It's just a piece of fabric.

What does annoy me is when some local business person takes it upon themselves to plant little American flags, with their business cards stapled to the stick, in everyone's front yard -- A. It's trespassing. B. It's against the flag code to do that.

If you're gonna try to evoke some weird patriotism in order to sell your tax, real-estate, barber, whatever services, do it right.

[Red State Rebel]

45. Then I guess the confederate flag in Georgia is ok....

If it's just a piece of fabric, it wouldn't matter. NO, I'm not racist, I'm just making a point. If we reduce all flags, symbols, etc. to just material things without any assigned meaning or sentiment then it should be that way across the board.

[Ladyhawk]

60. I hadn't thought of this before.

You're right.

I guess what ticks me off is the way the Republicans have hijacked the meaning of the flag. A lot of people on here have cried, "It's our flag, too!" I've tried to adopt that position, but the sight of so many American flags in my Republican community = Let's kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out.

:(

[mosin]

5. Yes, some.

Yes. It does bother me some. That is, in fact, very much the point of the protestors. It wouldn't make much of a statement if it didn't bother anybody.

Still, no matter how much I am bothered, I believe flag desecration is constitutionally protected expression. and it should remain that way.

[Warpy]

9. Well, the point should be made that the desecration

that we see on the nightly news shows is invariably overseas.

Americans learned their lesson in the 60s, desecrating a US flag on US soil is a stupid, stupid tactic that makes more enemies than points.

The flag amendment is just so much right wing grandstanding, and wouldn't stop a single desecration outside the US. Nor would it prevent hypocrites from wrapping themselves in it, the worst desecration of all.

[mosin]

15. Agreed

The flag amendment is just so much right wing grandstanding, and wouldn't stop a single desecration outside the US. Nor would it prevent hypocrites from wrapping themselves in it, the worst desecration of all.

Agreed. Personally, I find the flag amendment more offensive.

[RubyDuby in GA]

11. Texas v. Johnson

Back when the Supreme Court used to decide things that matter, like determine what is symbolic speech and letting Americans have that right.

And it doesn't bother me one bit to see someone using their constitutionally protected rights. Use 'em while ya still got 'em I say.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

16. Well said.

My opinion on flag burning was that if someone wants to prove themself to be an asshole, by all means, they should be allowed to do it.

[TX-RAT]

6. Always has, always will.

[sffreeways]

7. It bothers me some

Personally it bothers me yes it does.

Maybe when you bury a loved one in a flag drapped casket it takes on a significance that's very personal.

Since I buried my son, who was a Marine, (not killed in the war) I take special care of his flag and the flag that flies in front of my home. It's lit at night, taken in during bad weather, replaced if it gets tattered, and lowered to half staff when appropriate.

I do not however support amending the constitution. Burn em if you must.

[jonnyblitz]

8. no. not in the least. n/t

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

10. If it bothers you, the point got across

Burning a flag in protest is most definitely a very clear form of expression. If it bothers you, you got the message that someone is very dissatisfied with the country you love, loud and clear.

[geek tragedy]

18. So does burning a cross on someone's lawn.

The effectiveness of a mode of communication has absolutely no bearing on its morality or offensiveness.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

21. But what's the message sent with each form?

There's a big difference between burning a flag and burning a cross. Many MANY people have burned an American flag while meaning absolutely no harm to the country itself. Burning a cross on someone's lawn is a universally clear message that you are not wanted and harm is imminent. What's the difference? One form of speech is protected, the other is not.

[geek tragedy]

22. Burning a flag is an expression of hatred.

If I burned a French flag, I'd expect most French to be offended.

[Nadienne]

29. Not necessarily.

Or at least, I've never took it to be an expression of hatred. I've always thought it was an expression of discontent, frustration, and anger with the way things are. How do you express frustration and anger? Do you stand up and say, "I'm frustrated and angry!"? That's hardly expressive. I would say that the best way to express these feelings and have them conveyed is to do something offensive - to offend a symbol the way you were offended.

[geek tragedy]

41. There are many ways to express outrage and anger.

Flying it upside down, the distress signal, is more appropriate. People protest in thousands of ways without engaging in anti-patriotic acts

Using the same form of expression as AQ supporters sends a message of hatred. It may not be what is intended, but that is what is generally perceived. The flag, for better or worse, is a symbol of the United States. Doing violence to the symbol is symbolically doing violence to the United States.

I perceive anyone burning the flag as someone who hates the United States.

[Nadienne]

46. I perceive burning the flag an act of despair so great

that no other form of demonstration can convey what is felt. Maybe if flying the flag upside-down was considered as great a desecration as burning the flag, fewer people would burn the flag, chosing instead to fly it upside-down.

[geek tragedy]

48. How can you tell the difference between the hateful and the

despairing? AQ supporters in Pakistan who burn the US flag are doing so because they hate the US, not because they despair.

In any event, you are much more understanding than I or most others will be. Anyone who burns the US flag knows that, and invites the label "unpatriotic" and perhaps "disloyal."

[Nadienne]

53. I'll admit that, because of

erroneous public opinion, flag-burners can be perceived as hateful, violent, unpatriotic and disloyal... Which means that the public in general might misunderstand the flag-burners' intentions. And that misunderstanding could lead to having the flag-burner's goals be undermined.

As flag-burning is a demonstration of discontent, despair, distrust, frustration (or even hatred), it is, therefore, a form of communication. The message that is intended needs to be the same message that is heard. If the message that is heard (flag-burners=US-haters) is not the same as the message that is intended, then as a form a communication, and a method of demostration, flag-burning is ineffective, and would-be flag-burners would be well-advised to find some other way to communicate their message.

(I hope that made sense...)

So, I guess we agree, in a round-about way.

But, just to be difficult, AQ gains support in Pakistan whenever the US does something stupid in the Middle East. The stupid things we do in the Middle East cause Middle Easterners despair and anger and frustration. Maybe there is no hate. Maybe there is only anger.

How can you know what is known by those who burn flags? You said, "Anyone who burns the US flad knows that" - "that" being that most people are not very understanding. How do you know what flag-burners know?

[geek tragedy]

54. I really don't.

But, I really know very little about what anyone means when they use heated rhetoric. Does "Kerry is a wimp" mean that he isn't fighting an effective campaign, is it an expression of frustration with Rethug smears, or is it an indictment of his leadership and character? I have no way of knowing. Of course, we're not SUPPOSED to assume things, but it's awfully hard to make it through life without making a ton of assumptions.

My bottom line is that there is such a strong taboo on flag burning, and that it is in effect a form of violence--that there must be some very strong hatred, or at least misdirected anger.

[Nadienne]

61. Understood, and agreed.

Why can't people just say what they mean?!? The world would be a much better place.

[bleedingheart]

24. burning a cross on someone's lawn is a form of intimidation and

would be a hate crime but...if you rented a public venue or were in your own backyard burning a cross...well then you are just expressing your right to be a nazi-skinhead/kkk member...which in this great country you have a right to be...

I may not like it but as long as you aren't trespassing it is a freedom of expression.

[geek tragedy]

25. The point was that effectiveness doesn't mean that something isn't

offensive.

Muttering racist comments isn't illegal either, but it is effective.

[LoZoccolo]

12. Yes, very much.

It's basically somewhat of a capitulation to the right-wing "love it or leave it" philosophy, a kind-of bratty retreat. I subscribe to more of a "love it or change it" policy. Like it or not, we have the responsibility of fixing whatever evil is going on with our government set before us, and burning a flag, to me, is like going "well at least I'm not a part of this". It's not enough. If you don't like what people have made it stand for, it's your responsibility to change it.

Worse than all that, though, is people trying to use flag-burning as a wedge issue and offering to pass a stupid constitutional amendment to get elected.

[Joylaughter]

13. Yes it shows a people in distress

A culture that is in need of a Uniter not a divider. People don't burn the flag when all is hunky dory. They burn the flag as a freedom of expression to show their dissatisfaction with their government.

[gpandas]

14. yes, very much

when it is used to sell worthless shit to increasingly ignorant americans.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

17. Want to ban flag burning?

Fine, but let's ban all forms of flag desecration.

1) Ban the use of the American flag for profit, as has been done innumerably by the Republican party for fundraisers.

2) Ban the defacing of the American flag, as President Bush has signed his autograph to many of them.

[moderatepenguin]

19. Not much.

What bugs me is the reasoning some people put behind flag burning. If someone does it to symbolize their feeling that the same should happen to America, it bothers the hell out of me. This is supposed to be a good country, and it was, until four years ago.

Otherwise, no. The gesture in and of itself doesn't bother me at all, probably because most people who do it are doing it only because they expect it to. I haven't been bothered at seeing it in years.

[trotsky]

20. A little.

Probably for the same reason I always get a little choked up when I hear the national anthem.

But ultimately, it is our Constitution and our principles that make this country what it is. No one can hurt our country by desecrating the flag - and in fact, they're complimenting what we stand for.

[Ernesto]

23. Only when ignorant flag-wavers allow them to be torn to shreds

by leaving them up day & night, exposed to bad weather.... Not a very good way to show your "respect".

[arwalden]

28. Like This? ...

[Ernesto]

35. Perfect Illusration! n/t

[ComerPerro]

68. I couldn't agree more

Seeing flags that have been just left to the elements, in an effort by the owner to show how much they "love America" (when really they are just caught up in Bush's jingoistic bullshit), disgusts me to no end.

It proves just how fake these people are, and it kind of shows where their loyalties really lie. They don't love America. They just love being on a winning team. And they are loyal to Bush, not this country.

[stopbush]

26. See my sig line

[Ron Green]

27. The irony of burning the American Flag....

is that this flag stands for the freedom to burn it. It's an irony lost on most who wear it in their lapels, I think.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

30. Excellent point.

[KansDem]

34. A bumper sticker idea...

It is a weak flag that needs protection from itself

[TahitiNut]

36. The very act of burning the flag is to proclaim that it has been "soiled"

... by the behavior of government officials using it as a facade for their corruption. The proper and accepted manner of disposing of a soiled, tattered, or torn flag is by burning. "Flag burners" proclaimed their higher respect for that flag than those whose behavior despoiled it.

We should probably be burning it from sea to shining sea considering its despoliation by a corrupt cabal of crony capitalists who've made the USA an outlaw nation.

[KansDem]

31. Used to...not much any more, though...

I remember being outrage in the late 60s and early 70s when I saw the flag burned at protests. Still does, to some extent, however, what Bush/Cheney have done to it makes what flag burners do pale by comparison.

What angers me more is seeing Bush et al wear those little American flag lapel pins. That angers me more than any flag burning...

[donsu]

32. I would just think someone had a gripe with Washington

nt

[humbelwarrior]

33. who does the flag represent ?

The American flag is a symbol to many people. Its a symbol of hope and opportunity it symbolizes a country that can be changed by the people, a country that allows for political discourse ( even by the under or misinformed useful idiots) To me it represents my God, my family, my friends, my home town my personal freedoms,and our power to effect our own destiny. I do not understand how you burn the symbol of a country that allows you such freedoms. I believe that you can not satisfy everyone and that most of the Americans that burn the flag do so for publicity.or just out of plain ignorance. But if you touch my flag I will not be so tolerant of how you express your feelings. I understand that there are lots of people who don't like their family, don't have a spiritual God and believe only they know best and everybody who doesn't agree is an idiot They don't have respect for the opinions of others.
So burn your flag spit on your countries symbols. Some day you will mature and think back at what an asshole you were. Thats if your lucky.

[Ron Green]

42. Well, the flag ITSELF is not sacred, it's the freedom for which

it stands. It's a very subtle thing, and hard to grasp, but it's what makes our country different from some fascist ones (or it used to, at least.)

[RubyDuby in GA]

44. Maybe it's just me, but

you call it "my flag". Does it bother you to see some two bit hack of an "entertainer" (i.e. Kid Rock) take your flag and turn it into a poncho at the Super Bowl half-time show? That bothers me. But then again, all you good god-fearing, country loving, uber patriotic, um, people love nothing more than to wrap yourselves in this flag. Quite literally, I see.

I love a good political discourse as much as the next person, but I have to deal with yahoos like you everyday where I'm from. Get caught up in the little details just like Rove wants you to. Don't bother to look and see that these people who wrap themselves in your flag are the ones causing the problems.

It's Monday and I'm not in any mood to deal with narrow-mindedness today. Get back in your pickup and drive yourself back to Free Republic.

[Bridget Burke]

49. Cue Lee Greenwood....

It's not just "your" flag.

I'd regard flag-burning as poor taste unless the burner was very serious about their message; it is their constitutional right. Also distasteful: shredded, faded flags on SUV's; flags on running shorts; Bush autographing flags; all the flags at the Republican convention.

However, I don't want to amend the Constitution to suit my tastes.

[Ron Green]

57. I think he might not stick around. n/t

[Jacobin]

37. Ya mean like an American Flag sewed on some woman's butt?

Don't all the kewl clothes manufacturer's do that?

[Generic Other]

38. How exactly are we defining desecration?

Ronnie Cutrone, "Hate", 1982.

[bemildred]

39. Desecrated Constitutions annoy me a good deal.

Any use of flags is free speech.

[ret5hd]

40. how do you desecrate something that isn't sacred?

or, if one believes it is sacred, where and when was it made sacred and who declared it as such? The pope? Jerry Falwell? Pat Robertson? GW? Yourself? Do YOU have the ability to declare something sacred? If so, can you declare anything sacred? Like your car, or your silverware, or your job? Then, would a reckless driver or a thief or a boss unhappy with your work be considered as committing an act of desecration?

Ha...desecration. Leave it to the churches, not government.

[Generic Other]

43. "What is the proper way to display the flag?"

[baldguy]

47. Yes, Very Much

Because, in spite of all its problems - this is still the greatest country on earth. The flag doesn't just represent the territory of the United States, its also represents the people and the Constitution.

Yes, burning the flag is an expression of hatred. And the Constitution protects that expression. Amending the Constitution to outlaw flag desecration would outlaw the First Amendment.

Sort of like burning the village in order to save it.

[stlchic]

50. What bothers me is not so much the burning

but that the event or circumstance that could prompt such an angry and passionate reaction exists in the first place.

Like when that one Senator complained about the "overblown" outrage because of Abu Gharaib, I am confused as to why people continually pay more attention to the method of expression rather than what causes it.

Of course, if physical harm were coming to anyone in the demonstration, I could understand the focus then, but letting a piece of cloth burn on its own is hardly comparable to physical violence.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

51. How astonishing. There are people who don't love us.

Despite all the wonderful things we are doing around the world, the ingrates burn our flags just because we insist on "liberating" their countries, bombing their villages, killing their people, torturing prisoners, and ripping them off.

It's downright appalling that some people, even in this country, think the American flag represents something other than mom, apple pie, and the joys of shopping.

[Ron Green]

58. Why do you hate America, bandera?

:hi:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

62. Hate it? Not really.

Having seen a few other countries I can find things about each that I find wonderful or appalling. I believe that "love of country" is, at best, foolish, at worst, nationalistic.

Assuming that you love your country, why do you? Because you were born here? What if you had been born in Argentina? Or, Zimbabwe? Perhaps China? Would that instantly transform them into the "greatest country in the world"?

"Patriotism is the most foolish of passions, and the passion of fools." Schopenhauer

[Ron Green]

63. Sorry, I guess my sarcasm didn't come through.

Maybe there's a special symbol for it. I agree with your post 100%, for the record.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

65. My fault.

I looked at a couple of your previous posts after I had posted that one. I would have seen it for sarcasm had I not responded before reading them.

Ironically enough, "bandera" means flag in Spanish. I was going to use BanderaRoja (red flag) but thought it might be too provocative as a symbol of my stance.

[alphafemale]

52. Seeing gray, tattered flags, and flags with other images or writing...

on them bothers me deeply.

[arwalden]

59. Like This? (Warning: Large JPG Image... Sorry.)

[alphafemale]

67. I meant when it is used by "fake"riots With Elvis or Rocky or...

...some other image on the front. Or when Bush signed it or when it is used in advertising with writing printed on it.

I don't appreciate the anarchist types trashing it either.
One negative image is the one that will be captured, broadcast to the media and any positive message will be lost.

I will work against laws to prevent desecration, but I'd certainly try to talk anyone out of doing it.

I don't believe any actions like this make anyone "think." Especially not people you are trying to persuade.

And I honestly don't think that is the intent of most people who publicly desecrate the flag.

I think it is the need to shock and draw attention to themselves. They really don't care much about any cause.
Some people that to this, have been later been found to be intentional disruptors and infilltrators.

[BurtWorm]

55. The military purposely ingrains in recruits a sacred awe for the flag.

I don't know if it works. Randi Rhodes claims it does. But it wasn't the US military that invented this flag worship. It's actually rooted in the Roman legions' worship of their standards and aquilae (the golden eagles <sculptures, not live birds> ) legions brought into battle. Each legion had a shrine where its aquila was kept, and it was in the very center of each camp. It was considered a grave shame to lose or harm the aquila.

The US tries to accomplish this same sense of awe for the flag. It's one of their tricks. It's also why veterans are so touchy about the flag.

[cheezus]

56. doesn't the bible say something about flag worship?

[RichardRay]

64. What's the message?

If a flag is burned by someone who is trying to get me to look at a problem to which I've turned a blind eye then it's not desecration, it's a very strong statement.

If a flag is burned by someone who just doesn't like me or is just trying to gain attention for themselves and their rants then I'd rather they not do it.

Of course, I'm the only one who can tell the difference, and for others the line might be drawn someplace else, but there is a line.

Richard Ray - Jackson Hole, WY

[billyskank]

66. Since I'm not American,

I reinterpreted the question to would I be upset at the sight of a desecrated Cross of St George, or a Union Jack, and the answer is not in the slightest.