Does anyone else think Health Savings Accounts are a bad joke?

[Liberal Veteran]

I mean really. The majority of us can't just stick money away like that and it doesn't really help anyone without medical coverage.

Everytime I hear about these things, the only thing I can think of is thinly disguised tax-shelter that benefits the haves and does absolutely nothing for the have nots.

[cthrumatrix]

1. it's a sham ...they can't tell America that medicare is bankrupt in 10 yrs

[asjr]

2. Stupid ideas are all we get from BushCO, but this is one of the more

stupid. He makes the sheeple hear "savings" and they automatically think it is so.

[papau]

3. It is yet one more tax dodge for the rich as "choice" means you accept the

risk of being too short of funds to get medical care.

But you know that Government obligations and the taxes that support such common good - well - they are evil - just evil

Just read our media and learn how they do not object to this "choice" to accept the risk of bad medical care.

:-)

[wildeyed]

4. yes, bad joke.

I posted here earlier today about all the trouble I am having affording insurance for my full time employees at my very small business. The only thing stupider than the HSA's are the 'collective bargaining groups' they are suggesting to decrease premiums for small business.

My take, these are just new boondoggles for Bush's cronies. All these programs do is add another middleman to the chain. One more person who can make a profit off my hard earned health care dollars. He doesn't give a shit about reducing my health care burden. He doesn't care if my business fails or if me and my employees have to go without coverage. That's all.

[Nadienne]

13. Can you tell me more about "collective bargaining groups"?

They sound nice (Yeah, I know, like "Healthy Forests Inniatives"). What do they really do?

[Liberal Veteran]

15. I think you can take it as an article of faith that if Bush says...

...something is good for the worker, it means it's good for the corporation.

[Nadienne]

17. I know, but, like, "No child left behind"

was - so I hear - a bastardized Robert Kennedy idea. Underfunded, of course, so that even the good parts don't work.

Smaller groups getting together to be a big group... Like, individual workers getting together, become a union with united goals... Doesn't sound too bad, really. So, I have to wonder, what is his proposition really?

[wildeyed]

19. I haven't been able to find any detail on it.

I will ask my husband, he is usually good on wonky stuff like this. But I am suspicious that this is just another scam to get another commission for one of his insurance mogul friends when they 'negotiate' for us.

My group rates went up by 50% this year. My personal family insurance costs 10-15% of our total earnings. Why hasn't Bush done something already? Why is it just being proposed now, and in broad terms with little detail.

[Nadienne]

26. I suppose I could be looking for answers myself.

I'm just lazy. But I doubt there'll be anything other than flowery words. Funny, though, if Kerry were the one proposing the moon in gilded gold, the media would be all over him, analyzing this and trying to discredit that... Saying it's not possible, it won't work. But not for Bush. If he has a concrete plan laid out, we probably would have heard more about it by now. The media would be cramming it down our throats.

[wildeyed]

29. I actually checked the B/C 2004 website the other night.

No detail there. The news stories I have read are without detail, just general quotes from W.rong. I will ask my husband when he gets home, see if I can avoid research that way.

The media is AWOL. They should be asking these hard questions. I should be able to pick up my morning newspaper and find this type of thing out, not do some long complicated internet search.

[mosin]

30. It's nothing new...

Google "association health plans"

[skygazer]

5. It's absurd

The people who most need medical coverage are those who have little money to put away in savings of any sort. Once again, those who have money will make out fine and those who are struggling will struggle even more.

[Mistress Quickly]

6. Since I have health insurance through work

I guess I would rather have that money deducted into an account I control as opposed to some big hmo like it is now.

I think it would be better than the current health care insurance pyramid scheme that we have now.

Tell me again why we have the middleman (insurance). I don't want government health care, beyond safety nets.

If I could change or quit my job and take all the money I have paid into insurance with me, wow. As it is right now, the insurance companies get to make all the profit on my deducted money. If I leave (or quit or get fired), the fact that I have had insurance wouldn't mean squat.

The problem is these huge insurance companies jack up the price for everyone to see the doctor, because they have all the admin costs etc etc etc.

I think there should be options for everyone.

> flame suit on <

[Liberal Veteran]

11. Look at it from the flip side of someone with a chronic illness though.

Quite honestly, I can't afford to pay out of pocket.

Let's look at the costs I would incur in a year.

4 sets of full out blood work: $3000
4 doctor visits: $200

Doesn't sound too bad, right? Now take my maintenance meds into account:

1st prescription: $8000 per year
2nd prescription: $5868 per year
3rd prescription: $1056 per year

Now assuming I don't get sick, I'm already 18000 in the hole.

What good is an HSA to me?

[Mistress Quickly]

23. You're right

I just really think the big insurance companies are the ones raising the costs of medicine so much. They seem like a necessary evil though.

[CBHagman]

24. Well, given that a week's hospitalization can cost a year's salary...

...actual coverage, with co-payments as opposed to paying in full for an operation, a series of tests, medication, etc., is a better deal. Yes, I know the premiums add up and we'd all rather have money in our pockets. But just WAIT until something happens to a family member or to you. It's a whole new ballgame then.

If you've got a relative with diabetes, cancer, a chronically ill child, etc., you'll know what I'm talking about.

Three years ago I wound up in the hospital for a week -- my first hospital stay in about 40 years. The cost for the stay, not counting fees paid to the doctors and other expenses, would have cost a year's salary, pre-tax.

The idea that you can save up for your medical care is basically a fairy tale. Most working people simply don't have that much disposable income, and we're all saving for A) our kids' college education, B) a down payment on a house, C) retirement, and D) anything else we might need/want. And many of us are already in debt up to our ears. Even if you have insurance, you can wind up with huge, almost unbearable debts.

[Cobalt Violet]

7. As an uninsured person it wouldn't help at all.

I live paycheck to paycheck. And I'm struggling with basics like food, shelter, clothing. Bush has no soultion for the millions like me who are too quickly becoming the majority in this land.

[On the Road]

8. Absolutely -- There's Got to be a Sound Byte to Express This

The one thing Kerry/Edwards absolutely needs is a good sound-byte writer. Otherwise it will be invisible.

And don't think it's impossible -- Social Security was a tough one to communicate until Clinton resisted tax cuts to "save social security" and Gore talked about the "lock box."

[jedicord]

9. My company offers an HSA in its benefits package...

It's a crock. Basically, you get a $1,500 deductible (reg. plan is $750) plus higher co-pays and lower benefits. Whatever you don't use of the $1,500 during the year goes to a "savings account", which you cannot get to until you turn 65. If you don't live 'til 65, your spouse (if you're married) and immediately family (children under 18, yeah, the odds of having young children at that age are slim to none) can use the amount in that account to pay for medical expenses from the date you would have turned 65. So hopefully your spouse is still alive too.

Meanwhile, the company keeps this amount, which gradually is rising as long as you stay employed and don't use up your deductible annually, in an "account" that does not bear interest (well, not for you, but more than likely for the company).

So you may (or may not) eventually get to use this amount while your company saves money on benefits costs and gets to use your money to earn interest.

It's a crock.

[rocktivity]

10. I call them "rich-get-richer schemes"

This, tort reform, the Bush tax cuts, the Medicaid reform, any kind of privatization.

:headbang:
rocknation

[livinginphotographs]

12. The health insurance carrier I work for

is acting like they're the second coming of Christ.

Of course, when you stand to make a killing off of them, I can see why they're so excited.

I think they're full of shit, personally. Luckily, I don't think they'll really become much a trend, since some of the bigger carriers make a lot more money on regular PPO plans, and have no interest in HSAs.

[Cleita]

14. This is another one of those RW ideas that do nothing

to repair our health care crisis. You are right, for most people saving for anything, whether it's health or retirement is not a realistic plan. Giving tax credits is another one. The people who really need affordable health care can't get it with tax credits because it wouldn't cover their real health needs.

We need to extend Medicare to everyone. Look north to the Canadian system. They figured it out.

[Bozita]

16. How many 25 year olds want to put $$$ away today for illness 40 years down

... the road?

If ever there were a total bullshit proposal, Health Savings Accounts are it.

[MallRat]

18. The GOP couches it in rhetoric of "self-reliance."

Meanwhile, the sheeple don't realize that THEY CAN'T AFFORD TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF HSA's.

Just another example of campaign spin trumping reality.

By appealing to patriotism, strength, family values, whatever... the GOP is very, very good at getting people to go along with policies that are absolutely not in their best interests.

-MR

[Liberal Veteran]

21. Not to mention they are tax-deferred.....

...it just sounds like an IRA with another name attached.

[CBHagman]

20. It's a system designed for people who don't need much coverage.

And also a system, I might add, for people with disposable income. Really, like most Bush policies, it's meant for those at the upper end of the income scale and/or those for whom another place to store money tax-free is welcome.

And naturally, those who stand to make money on this system are running anti-Kerry ads, like that white guy who runs attack ads sponsored by something like "People of Color United." Those were the ones that actually attacked Teresa Heinz Kerry.

[EndElectoral]

22. I had an MSA...it was worthless

[Cleita]

34. Every social reform the GOP comes up with is worthless.

eom

[morgan2]

25. it's a way of attempting to say

its your fault if you don't have the money for health coverage. He had the choice of investments, its his fault he invested in a bad company etc.. It also would pump a lot of money into wall street, so they love it.

[UdoKier]

27. Exactly. But not a joke. An evil scam job.

single payer.
single payer.
single payer.
single payer.
single payer.
single payer.
single payer.

[phylny]

28. To be honest

we have one and for the life of us, we have a difficult time understanding how to use it!

It's not that we're dumb, we just have so little time in the week. We did it this year, putting a little money aside for it, but we have to figure out pretty quickly how to access it or we lose the money.

We're not doing it next year...no way.

[baldguy]

31. Its not a "savings account"

Its a $2000 deductable.

Its a nightmare.

[democratreformed]

32. Watched part of a forum on CSPAN the other day.

The Repub lady (from the *Bush campaign) kept saying X-number of people will be covered under MSAs. I was thinking "What kind of coverage is that?"

That's a bunch of crap. How can they call it "coverage" when you somehow STILL have to come up with the money to pay for it yourself?

[Liberal Veteran]

33. Maybe she meant covered with 6 feet of dirt?

:shrug:

[democratreformed]

37. LOL. Could be....

I hadn't thought of it that way.

[TexasSissy]

35. It's excuse for raising the deductible to $1,000.

Since the HSAs only kick in for employees whose work policies have at least $1,000 deductibel, guess what? Employers will change their ins. policies to have higher and higher deductibles, telling employees it's so that the employees can take advantage of HSAs.

Only employees with expendable incomes (of which I am one) will be able to sock away $$$ in HSAs.

The REAL purpose: it helps employers with the cost of ins. coverage. Secondary purpose: it helps us all in a way in that when employers ins. coverage cost goes down, we ALL benefit. It also DISCOURAGES the use of health ins.

This will work for me, but sadly, this is not a good thing for the millions of poor in our country.

When did this country become on that is only concerned with "ME"? When did we stop caring about how things affect the poor? Why is it now considered socialism to consider the effects on poor people? Why is it now almost a crime to be poor? We will ALWAYS have poor people. It's a fact. Our economics should not be totally geared toward the poor, but we should consider how programs affect or harm them, shouldn't we?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

36. Yup, I looked at the earlier Medical Savings Account as an option.

and this works the same way.

First of all, you have to pay an insurance premium AND set aside enough money to pay 85% of your medical bills. Now, you're not absolutely required to fund your savings account, but the expectation is that you will pay for your deductible out of the savings account.

The real catch is that unless you get a very expensive insurance policy on top of it, you still have to pay 20% of your medical bills AFTER you've met the deductible.

After carefully weighing the options, I decided that I'd come out ahead if I simply signed up for a regular old insurance policy with a $1000 deductible.

I can still put the money aside and accumulate it, and if I really accumulate enough to make taxes a consideration, I can always stick it in a self-employed IRA.

[TankLV]

38. The worst sick joke in a long time.

Just how are you supposed to "save" for this when you don't have enough money to pay the damn bills in the first place so you continually go deeper & deeper into debt, with higher unlimited interest rates, or go withou food or heat or some other necessity?

No one ever states that "small" factoid!

[Nikia]

39. I take it that this is different than flexible spending accounts

It saves on taxes and takes a regular amount of one's check. The main problem that I have with this is that I never know how much I am going to spend on medical expenses since it is only good for one year. Unlike my insurance, I have to send the bills and receipts in in order to be reimbursed.

[flaminbats]

40. What about a Medicare Tax Savings account..

a Social Security Tax Savings Account, or a Co-pay and Prescription Drug Importation Tax Savings Account? All money invested or used in such accounts would be protected from Federal Income Tax..

[shrike]

41. I don't think most people even know what they are

I explained the concept in class recently; everyone was dumbfounded -- and mad that they would be expected to pay for their own health care.

Hubby was recently hospitalized for three days, major emergency surgery. The bill: $11,000. Luckily, we're covered.