Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Disreputable Men

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU
 
Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 04:16 PM
Original message
Disreputable Men
Edited on Sun Sep-19-04 04:27 PM by Minstrel Boy
Posted this to my blog here

Disreputable Men

Gary Sick's is an interesting story. Sick is the author of October Surprise, one of the best accounts of the covert deal struck in the Fall of 1980 between senior Republicans, arms merchants and Iranian mullahs to delay the return of the American hostages until Ronald Reagan's inauguration. But as interesting as it is, that's not the story I mean. I'm talking about Sick's own story: his passage from career White House insider to "conspiracy theorist."

Sick served on the National Security Council under three presidents and was the principal White House aide on the Iran file during the fall of the Shah and the hostage crisis. He knew, or so he thought, how Washington worked, because he'd been working it. And though the timing of the hostages' release appeared suspect, there was no need, Sick thought, to resort to talk of conspiracies. However, as time went on, "seemingly inescapable fragments of information began to appear....

My experience was not unlike that of a medieval scholar discovering traces of a hidden text beneath the script of an old parchment.... I felt as if I were wandering into a spy novel. The backgrounds and activies of some of these individuals who were emerging from the shadows of this operation seemed to come out of fiction, and yet they were real.... most of my professional life had been spent as an analyst of political and military intelligence. I knew that there were operatives for hire, ready to skirt the law for money, perhaps out of habit or duty, or simply for the thrill and sense of power illegal acts conveyed. But it was nonetheless a shock to meet them....

Gradually, this Beltway veteran was introduced to a whole other level at which Washington conducted its business. Despite all his years at the NSC he'd had no experience of this, and though he'd always known a covert world existed, he'd spared it little thought. But there it was, in the corroborating testimony of witnesses, arms dealers and operatives. And what he was learning was nothing less than the secret history of the official history he'd helped to write.

If you think you've undergone a paradigm shift, spare a thought for Gary Sick.

He discovered the secret company which respectable men like William Casey and George Herbert Walker Bush kept: disreputable men. Liars, cheats, gunrunners and drug traffickers. Intelligence agencies would be lost without them. And if they ever squeal, they are readily dismissed on nothing more than the broad outline of their character; their incendiary allegations against the powerful and respectable extinguished with barely a sizzle, regardless of the evidence supported by their charges.

Here's Sick, again, in October Surprise:

Such characters are a researcher's nemesis; they are meant to be. When the CIA or other intelligence agencies need to hire a "contractor," who may be required to carry out taks that are potentially dangerous and of questionable legality, they look for three things: a specific and useful skill (a knowledge of money-laundering, perhaps); a romantic streak that glorifies both the secrecy and the risk; and a propensity for exageration and trouble. One former CIA officer, David MacMichael, has said that the agency looks for these freelancers at small community airports and gun ranges - places where men go to excape the boredom of everyday life. Looking for adventure, these men are fascinated by the imagined glamour and excitement of the world of espionage. MacMichael said that often, after one or two assignments, the agency will put a contractor on a case in which he runs afoul of the law. The contractor finds himself in a compromising position - nothing so major as to put him permanently out of commission, but significant enough that if he ever starts telling tales out of school about covert operations, his record will discredit his testimony.

This is something the coincidence theorist perpetually refuses to credit: the perfect plausible deniability inherent in employing such characters. These are scoundrels, liars and criminals. If they ever choose to talk, who's going to take their word over that of respectable men of high station?

And to the practiced coincidentalist, it doesn't matter how well the testimony is corroborated. The evidence is discarded, sometimes for fantastic reasons, with the circular, unspoken rationale that if it confirms the word of a known liar then it must be false.

Take, for instance, the case of Delmart Vreeland. A scoundrel by every account, but also one with exceptional information for those with ears to hear. He did pass on the "Let one happen, stop the rest" warning from a Toronto jail cell before 9/11; his claim that Canadian diplomat Marc Bastien had been poisoned in Moscow has been proven correct; the Pentagon unwittingly acknowledged his lengthy service record when it was called in open court, by relying on archived records undamaged by the 9/11 attack from which he had not yet been purged (the prosecution argued, incredibly, that Vreeland must have hacked into the Pentgon files from his jail cell); Leo Wanta, longtime intelligence asset who destabilized the Soviet ruble in the '80s at the White House request, confirmed Vreeland was an operative of the Office of Naval Intelligence; his lawyers did receive death threats and found their files vandalized; and Vreeland has vanished.

But none of that matters to the coincidentalists, who stubbornly refuse to see deeper than the "legends" created for men like Vreeland, which is precisely the point. So Lee Harvey Oswald is a "communist," and Barry Seal just a drug runner. That Oswald was seen with the CIA's David Atlee Phillips in September 1963, and Barry Seal was gunned down with Vice President George Bush's personal phone number in his trunk, need to be ignored. The coincidentalists can't make sense of such evidence, that respectable men would have anything to do with such characters. But without them, some respectable men would be able to do very little.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
1. haven't heard Vreeland refered to in years.
I thought he had been thoroughly discredited.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. That's why I brought him up.
A lying scoundrel, like good operatives are supposed to be.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. ah...
hadn't heard it speculated that he was an operative... but stranger things have happened... like Rove being a source for Fortunate Son... to make sure that some of the uglier bush items could be introduced and then the venue of the introduction is wholly discredited.. by the time any of the accusations come up they are quickly dusted away as having "already been discredited" - though they weren't item by item discredited... but the source was (or was according to the popular media) and thus they get away with airing and shooting down items in ways that lets them keep the items from ever having weight again.

?? is this what you are implying per Vreeland? Something along these lines?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Not exactly.
By operative, I mean working on contract for ONI.

He's widely held to have been discredited because he's been shown to be a liar. Well that's perfect; that's just what intelligence agencies look for. As I quoted Sick: "Such characters are a researcher's nemesis; they are meant to be. When the CIA or other intelligence agencies need to hire a 'contractor,' who may be required to carry out taks that are potentially dangerous and of questionable legality, they look for three things: a specific and useful skill (a knowledge of money-laundering, perhaps); a romantic streak that glorifies both the secrecy and the risk; and a propensity for exageration and trouble...." He's placed in a compromising position, so that "if he ever starts telling tales out of school about covert operations, his record will discredit his testimony."

The reason I go on about Vreeland is because I was on the margins of his case. My oldest friend was one of his attorneys. I know Vreeland's more than a liar because my friend witnessed the sealing of his pre-9/11 warning and tried to get Canadian and US authorities to pay attention, he called the Pentagon in open court and got his records, was subjected to threats and vandalism pertaining to the case, and found Vreeland's apartment ransacked with important documents missing, and Vreeland hasn't surfaced yet. (See, for instance, this Toronto Star story: "Post-9/11, this doesn't seem all that weird."

The point of the piece is to say character assassination is the favourite tool of the debunker, because the characters are almost universally scoundrels. As Sick says, "his record will discredit his testimony."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Thanks for the clarification
I will be off line until next weekend - but would be interested in hearing/reading more. THanks.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #4
13. I didn't know that Vreeland had gone missing
How long has it been? Do you (personally) think he's dead? He had a teenage son, or was it daughter, any word of the child?

Totally excellent, awesome article, MB. You continue to impress the hell outta me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
5. what the heck - kick n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 09:28 PM
Response to Original message
6. Great post!!!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
7. Here's a Reputable Woman...
... who's pegged the PNAC Wing of the BFEE.

The new Pentagon papers

A high-ranking military officer reveals how Defense Department extremists suppressed information and twisted the truth to drive the country to war.


By Karen Kwiatkowski

March 10, 2004  |  In July of last year, after just over 20 years of service, I retired as a lieutenant colonel in the U.S. Air Force. I had served as a communications officer in the field and in acquisition programs, as a speechwriter for the National Security Agency director, and on the Headquarters Air Force and the office of the secretary of defense staffs covering African affairs. I had completed Air Command and Staff College and Navy War College seminar programs, two master's degrees, and everything but my Ph.D. dissertation in world politics at Catholic University. I regarded my military vocation as interesting, rewarding and apolitical. My career started in 1978 with the smooth seduction of a full four-year ROTC scholarship. It ended with 10 months of duty in a strange new country, observing up close and personal a process of decision making for war not sanctioned by the Constitution we had all sworn to uphold. Ben Franklin's comment that the Constitutional Convention of 1787 in Philadelphia had delivered "a republic, madam, if you can keep it" would come to have special meaning.

In the spring of 2002, I was a cynical but willing staff officer, almost two years into my three-year tour at the office of the secretary of defense, undersecretary for policy, sub-Saharan Africa. In April, a call for volunteers went out for the Near East South Asia directorate (NESA). None materialized. By May, the call transmogrified into a posthaste demand for any staff officer, and I was "volunteered" to enter what would be a well-appointed den of iniquity.

The education I would receive there was like an M. Night Shyamalan movie -- intense, fascinating and frightening. While the people were very much alive, I saw a dead philosophy -- Cold War anti-communism and neo-imperialism -- walking the corridors of the Pentagon. It wore the clothing of counterterrorism and spoke the language of a holy war between good and evil. The evil was recognized by the leadership to be resident mainly in the Middle East and articulated by Islamic clerics and radicals. But there were other enemies within, anyone who dared voice any skepticism about their grand plans, including Secretary of State Colin Powell and Gen. Anthony Zinni.

From May 2002 until February 2003, I observed firsthand the formation of the Pentagon's Office of Special Plans and watched the latter stages of the neoconservative capture of the policy-intelligence nexus in the run-up to the invasion of Iraq. This seizure of the reins of U.S. Middle East policy was directly visible to many of us working in the Near East South Asia policy office, and yet there seemed to be little any of us could do about it.

CONTINUED...

http://archive.salon.com/opinion/feature/2004/03/10/osp/

PS: You may need a "Day Pass" to access the full story. It's worth the hassle. Better yet, subscribe to the damn thing. Salon is becoming a "must-read"...and I don't work for them and I once thought I'd never write that.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nordic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. here's an excellent interview with her
http://www.laweekly.com/ink/04/13/news-cooper.php

Soldier for the Truth
Exposing Bush’s talking-points war
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Eye and Monkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
8. they got one of their "disreputable men" to be pResident
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
9. Kicked and bookmarked to read later.
Thanks Minstrel Boy!

:kick:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AliceWonderland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 12:06 AM
Response to Original message
11. Excellent post, Minstrel Boy
Very interesting reading.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 02:15 AM
Response to Original message
14. I see Rupert brings Vreeland back in his book:
CONTENTS
ACKNOWLEDGMENTS . . . . . . . . . IX
FOREWORD by Catherine Austin Fitts . . . . . . . . . . XIII
INTRODUCTION . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1

PART I — MOTIVE
CHAPTER 1: Petroleum Man . . . 22
CHAPTER 2: Cheney Knew . . . . 41
CHAPTER 3: The CIA is Wall Street, and Drug Money is King . . . . . . . 50
CHAPTER 4: Connecting Drugs and Oil . . . . . . . . . 69
CHAPTER 5: A Criminal Meltdown . . . . . . . . . . . . . 76
CHAPTER 6: Laying the Foundation: Destroy Russia,
Prepare the Battlefield . . . . 82
CHAPTER 7: Caspian Corruption 94
CHAPTER 8: Setting Up the War: Pakistan’s ISI,
America’s Agent for Protecting the Taliban and al Qaeda . . . . . . . 103
CHAPTER 9: Business with the bin Ladens: The Real Saudi Arabia . . . . 123

PART II — MEANS
CHAPTER 10: PROMIS: Controlling the Data . . . . 152
CHAPTER 11: Vreeland I . . . . . . 175
CHAPTER 12: Executing a Conspiracy: Shame and Honor
in the FBI – An Air Force Colonel Blows the Whistle . . . . . . . . . 203
CHAPTER 13: Penetration . . . . . 225
CHAPTER 14: 9/11 Insider Trading, or “You Didn’t Really
See That, Even Though We Saw It” . . . . . . . . 238
CHAPTER 15: Israel . . . . . . . . . . 254
CHAPTER 16: Silencing Congress . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 269
CHAPTER 17: Vreeland II: Silencing Me . . . . . . . . . 291

PART III — OPPORTUNITY
CHAPTER 18: The Attacks . . . . 308
CHAPTER 19: Wargames and High Tech: Paralyzing the
System to Pull Off the Attacks . . . . . . . . . . . . 333
CHAPTER 20: Q&A: Many Questions Asked, Some
Answered – and a Golden Moment . . . . . . . . 357
CHAPTER 21: The Last Hearing: FTW Confronts on the
Wargames NORAD Runs 393
CHAPTER 22: Guiliani and TRIPOD II . . . . . . . . . 404
CHAPTER 23: Dick Cheney, FEMA, and “Persons of Interest” . . . . . . . 412
CHAPTER 24: The Secret Service and National Special
Security Events . . . . . . . . . 427
CHAPTER 25: The Commission’s Wild Blue Yonder 437

PART IV — EMPIRE AND DECLINE
CHAPTER 26: The Record . . . . 448
CHAPTER 27: “We Don’t Need No Badges” . . . . . . 471
CHAPTER 28: Conquering the American People . . . 482
CHAPTER 29: Biological Warfare . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 505
CHAPTER 30: Order of Battle . . 527
CHAPTER 31: Peak Oil Revisited . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 554
CHAPTER 32: Summation . . . . . 570

APPENDIX A: Joint Chiefs of Staff “Northwoods” Document . . . . . . . 595
APPENDIX B: Vreeland Financial Document Sample 609
APPENDIX C: Iraqi/Saudi Oilfields Information . . . 610
ENDNOTES . 618
INDEX . . . . . 658


Looks like fascinating stuff. What has always stuck in MY mind is how VREELAND STATED THAT HE WAS CARRYING EVIDENCE THAT IRAQ WAS DIRECTLY INVOLVED IN 9/11. Moreover, that this was documentation coming by way of Russia that DID NOT REACH ITS INTENDED CONTACT.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. my wild speculation about Vreeland's info
Since Vreeland received his information Dec 2000, perhaps he saw an "early draft" of 9/11 that lacked later refinements. His original warning lists a number of targets, and the note "let one happen, stop the rest," so perhaps what became 9/11 was just one proposed scenario of many that had not yet been narrowed down.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. That is very likely correct. But what do you think of this "Iraq" business
I don't have a direct link to this statement from him. In fact, it may have been in one of the interviews with Jeff Rense where he said it. Rupert's position upon hearing it for the first time (same interview, if I'm recalling correctly) even if Vreeland was carrying such a document, that didn't mean it was LEGITIMATE. It named one of Osama's sons, Udae (SP?), if I remember correctly, as being the origin of the 9/11 plot.

Understand, I'm not putting this forward, this is what Vreeland said. And I find it very interesting that Vreeland himself WAS IN CUSTODY. I've often wondered what the Canadians RALLY thought of Vreeland, why they held him for so long without extraditing him. The point is, this document, regardless of its veracity, could have been INTENDED to tie Iraq to 9/11 BEFORE IT HAPPENED. However, this document was intercepted and as you know there has never been any credible evidence that there was a tie between Iraq and 9/11. This lack of evidence has made the whole Iraq war "sell" much less credible to many knowledgeable people.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 02:44 AM
Response to Original message
15. Jesus Christ.
From Vreeland

" there are multiple, deployable space/orbital EMP missiles that are not aimed at the ground. They are targeted at everyone else's satellites. These would kill worldwide communications.

and

"6. When did you first learn details of the attacks that were to happen on Sept. 11?

In the first week of December 2000."

=======

That means when that assache and darth vader really knew they were in, just about the first week they knew their coup had worked, when no more recounts were allowed, they gave out the order.

No time wasted - In a hurry - which was something I noticed about their
administration right away...they must have done 12 years work in a year and a half. Rush it - hurry it up -
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. "What war on terrorism"


31. Is the war on terrorism about something other than what the people of the world are being told?

What war on terrorism?

32. What do you think will happen next in the war on terror?

Eventually, someone's going to have to tell the truth. Once those people are dealt with according to law, there will be no more false terror spread across the globe.

He's repeating the same thing Edmonds has said.
She's a smart cookie to have gone very public and I hope she's got a
very safe place surrounded by attack dogs.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 05:05 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. THIS IS ALL A MUST READ - KICK IT - TELL EVERYONE YOU KNOW
or e mail it to them
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. I never know what to think with Vreeland
On one hand he made some increasingly wild statements that were/are difficult to swallow. On the other hand, this 'EMP weapons aimed at satellites' scenario could help explain a lot if true.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Vreeland immediately came to mind when
I read these words from Gary Sick, describing the ideal intelligence operative: "a propensity for exageration and trouble."

Vreeland was a liar, but he was more than a liar. Sander Hicks, in his excellent Vreeland series "Wildcard," tells how he, too didn't know what to think, and was about to write him off as just a con man. Then, former Bush operative Leo Wanta comes into the picture and backs up Vreeland.

A real rabbit hole.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. I agree. The real rabbit holes are the ones worth going down.
This is how we get a glimpse into the operation of what I am now calling "The National Security State run Federal Government and their Corporate Owned Media." At a certain level they are independent groups of people but at another level its all about who controls whose perception of reality.

I'm AMAZED that so many people, even here at DU, HAVE DRUNK THE 9/11 COOL-AID.

There was no "terrorist attack." It was NOT an "Intelligence Failure." There IS NO WAR ON TERRORISM. Its all just Black Op Social Mind Control and everyone has bought it hook line and sinker.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. well worth reading the whole thing. I like " What war on terrorism"
especially
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gandalf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 03:26 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. But you must not say it, you conspiracy theorist!
They hate our freedom.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed Apr 17th 2024, 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC