56 Years as a Democrat and I am being called a "freeper" here.

[IwoVet1945]

Just because I do not like it when fellow Democrats call US Military personel "murderers". Why is it if you disagree with someone you are automatically a republican?

[CatWoman]

1. well

are you :shrug:

[IwoVet1945]

3. No

I am a lifelong Democrat.

[Vickers]

5. Then fuck 'em. Who cares?

Put 'em on ignore, skip over it, who gives a shit?

Veteran Vickers

[UNIXcock]

122. agreed, I get the same shit too

:kick:

[Media_Lies_Daily]

28. I second Vickers' comments. The hell with 'em.

[saigon68]

165. SEE # 162 BELOW

[faithnotgreed]

41. good for you iwovet1945! were glad to have you here

sorry youre feeling some heat here. theres a tremendous amount of emotion going on so please try not to take things too personally. lots of people seem to coming in and stirring one thing or another up which isnt too hard since polls, media, etc are all over the place.

welcome to du and im glad youre here fighting with us (i mean fighting against the tyranny, not with one another!)

[LoZoccolo]

192. Hey, I've gotten this too.

Don't let it bother you. Hit alert on 'em.

[Wonk]

118. Here's why some might think so. (link)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=833151&mesg_id=833783

Read down the thread a bit, too.

[Puglover]

154. The title of that thread...

"will you spit in their faces", is a complete R.W. myth.

[saigon68]

171. See # 162 below ---- he did more than post that

He bragged about beating up War Protestors He is a sham and a fraud

[blm]

2. Most here have utmost respect for the military. There are also some here

who post really inflammatory stuff against the military just to make Democrats look bad. They pose as lefties while slandering the military. It's a tactic that GOP operatives have done for decades. Agitators. Ignore them.

[krkaufman]

23. And there are also far-lefties who are staunchly anti-military...

... recalling some of the vitriol against Wes Clark during the primaries.

I'd go with the "forget 'em" approach. Please don't take the opinions of a few as the norm.

[Demonaut]

101. hang in there, not all of us are calling the military murderers

We have a few that are against every war but not all of us see the war in the same light, if someone calls you a freeper it's just that lately we've had a bunch come over and cause disruptions.

[Bombtrack]

4. Because there's a loud contingent of close-minded douchebags

who have to resort to slandering people with unsubstantiated attacks when truth, justice (and perhaps the American way) isn't on their side.

[PurityOfEssence]

6. These are very emotional times

You have the wisdom of time to put some perspective to it all, but most here don't. Time also gives one the habits of repeating mistakes, too, so sometimes it's not so great.

If you've served in war, and if you were in the Pacific Theater in WW2, you know full well that there were plenty who were motivated by hatred of the "Japs", blatant racism, and youthful exuberance.

You will find many people here who do respect the soldiers, but not all soldiers are "good", even if they're fighting for a "good" cause. This, lest we forget, is not a "good" cause; this is the most despicable act this country's undertaken since the Mexican War.

Anyone who's new to this board--especially someone joining at a peak moment like an election--is subject to suspicion; as a long-timer here, there have been many endless disruptions.

Have you ever seen such corruption, destruction of personal freedom and dangerous fascism in this country in your lifetime? If you served in WW2, you have to be close to 80 right now, and the worst thing to compare it to in your lifetime was the McCarthy era; you'll remember that that was the creature of Congress, industry and the likes, but NOT of the administration at the time. This is worse.

[St. Jarvitude]

66. Excellent post

I would say yours is the most eloquent and truthful post on this board.

To call either IwoVet or those critical of the military "Freepers" is ridiculous. Simply having a controversial viewpoint does not automatically make one a disruptor.

[alittlelark]

69. To say you do not support the men and women who

fight for our country in an attempt to get a college education, or to escape poverty is absolutely UNAMERICAN, and inhuman.

Those that do have no home here in my opinion. The ones that are here are
1) getting paid for services rendered
or
2) ignorant rubes
or
3) horrifying souls

[St. Jarvitude]

72. OK - I guess I didn't word myself correctly

It is indeed inhuman and un-American to not support the troops on the whole. By "support the troops", I mean you realize many of them did not ever envision fighting in a combat zone, you pray for them, you wish them the best, you try to get them out of harm's way ASAP, and you try to make their life as stressless as possible.

However, there is a contingent of DUers who froth at the mouth whenever anyone singles out one serviceman and calls him out for committing horrible deeds. One example would be the Abu Ghraib prisoner torture. To not call the servicemen who tortured almost exclusively innocent civilians murdering scum is un-American. To be blind and fail to realize that there are a few whackos serving in the US uniform is just as horrible as believing that all of the soldiers act this way.

At the same time, there is a contingent of DUers who take advantage of the misdeeds of a few American soldiers and immediately label all of the soldiers as "murdering scum." They are no better, and no worse, than the group I mentioned above.

Most of the time, I believe that both sidse overreact because somebody isn't clear at all with their wording. I see all too many times posts that consist entirely of "murdering scum" whenever there is a report of some civilians being gunned down, with scatching replies condemning the person for being "anti-military." In both cases, there is extreme miscommunication and I believe this is where the problem lays.

[alittlelark]

90. Dude, I wasn't talkin' to you specifically

I was making a general post that landed under your post because that's when it coalesced (sp).

Sorry.

[alittlelark]

91. By the way - a very cogent arguement

[The Flaming Red Head]

99. The private contractors (mercenaries) who participated in Abu Ghraib

would make much better scape goats. How comne they're not the poster children of this?

[JimmyJazz]

167. I completely agree with you and would also add

that I believe that in order for a normal person to take a human life, they must first dehumanize that person, mentally think of them as less than themselves. Once that is accomplished, you have a soldier. However, when you then put that same soldier in charge of the very people he/she has mentally dehumanized, you have a very volatile situation on hand. People other than combat soldiers should be dealing with these prisoners.

When you couple that with studies that show people do things in a group or pack that they would NEVER do as an individual, no one should be surprised that these atrocities occurred.

I think what happened is horrible and I can barely stand to see those photographs. I do not condone the behaviour of these soldiers, but I firmly believe that someone higher up should have seen this coming.

[Zhade]

184. Of course they saw it coming - they drafted memos to ALLOW it to happen!

So yes, you are entirely correct, and the criminals in the administration must pay for their crimes.

[Ardee]

7. Not to worry

Politics has become increasingly a divisive topic. Democrats and Republicans alike are increasingly unable to engage in self analysis and adopt a "my party line or the highway" attitude....While I am a former Democrat of forty years I never objected to criticisms of my position or those of my party.

While some may believe that any sort of statements like the ones you so aptly object to are the work of "fifth columnists" I tend to doubt this and chalk it up to the growing tendencies to inflexinble political thought.

[wickywom]

8. ignore them.. there is some immaturity..but

the smart people here make it worth the while...
I've been accused twice myself.

[Blecht]

9. There are a lot of chickenshits around here

... trolling to disrupt while claiming to be military.

Maybe you were in the vicinity of one of them and received some of the backlash intended for the troll.

Don't worry about it. You are definitely welcome here -- most people here have a deep respect for veterans.

[saigon68]

168. he's definitely NOT WELCOME HERE SEE # 162 BELOW

[qwlauren35]

10. I Know How You Feel...

I'm pretty sure that many people here have me on ignore. I've only been voting for 20 years. Dukakis-Clinton-Clinton-Gore and now Kerry. I've never campaigned so hard for anyone in my life as I am for Kerry. The DemStore knows me by name.

But when I came to DU this summer asking questions, I was called a troll.

DU is dominated by a certain level of "progressive" thought. And I have seen people get so badly and viciously slammed in here that it's easy to get discouraged and search for safer pastures. These days, I just come for information and ideas.

Speaking your mind here can get you "virtually" lynched. You either get used to it, they put you on ignore... or you leave. But fighting back isn't an option. You're outnumbered.

[Julien Sorel]

36. Don't "fight back."

Just fight. Say what you believe, back it up with facts, and call people on their bullshit. A few are certain to call you a Republican and all the rest, but personally I get a kick out of it.

Sometimes when I'm reading here, I am reminded that Stalinism started as a left wing movement, and the Russian Revolution was actually a movement of a variety of parties, from which the Bolsheviks eventually emerged as the "true" revolutionaries. Everyone else got thrown in the gulags for lack of political purity. I can look around here and see the would-be Bolsheviks all the time, although a lot of them seem to have moved to Greener pastures. There are still a few left behind, though.

[LWolf]

76. Well, I obviously don't have you on ignore,

and I can't say I remember reading your posts. But I disagree with this statement:

DU is dominated by a certain level of "progressive" thought.

I would say that DU usedto be more progressive than it is right now. I would say that the board has changed quite a bit in the last couple of years with a big increase in membership. And I would say, being a progressive liberal, that putting "progressive" in quotes leaves me with the impression that you don't care for progressives. From the other side of that fence, I would have said that I've seen progressives get viciously slammed in here, too. I would say that I have almost given up on discussing many issues at this point. I understand the source; I know how important this election is. I'm interested in seeing if it becomes ok to have civil discussions about issues from different povs after November 2, or if current climate continues.

With that in mind, perhaps it would be in order to step back and look at the bigger picture; it is not a "progressive vs moderate" catfight; it is the end result of 2000, the * administration, the Orwellian takeover of American thought through corporate media, and the urgency, and panic on the part of many, involved with this election.

I've only been voting for 25 years.

[RobinA]

100. Don't Blame

the nonsense on "progressive thought." The namecalling is not due to ideology, it's a character issue. Some people are too immature to deal with an opinion that isn't exactly like theirs.

[UdoKier]

11. Who called them murderers? That would be unusual here.

The only murderer is George W. Bush and his band of cronies.

[hiphopnation]

24. sadly

it's not unusual here. I've seen plenty of posts where servicepeople have been called murderers and worse. :shrug:

[Leilani]

39. Not at all unusual.

Couple of weeks ago, I went through some threads & found many, many smears & insults towards our military, & I was so upset I wrote them down to start a thread.

Instead, I Cooled off, & just kept quiet.

The anti-military feelings are a significant minority here.

[Selwynn]

138. Yes it in fact *IS* unusual.

Put up or shutup. Post all the thread examples and show me exactly where somone calls US troops murderers.

I want to see them all.

Because I'm here every day, and acting like this is some common place sentiment is bullshit. But there's an easy way to settle it, if you have evidence - produce it. If you don't, then I call bull.

[Bunny]

12. Welcome to DU, thank you for your service.

The vast majority of us support our troops, and want them home. If you ran into a douchebag here, consider that it might not be one of ours. We are infiltrated daily by those who would try to make us look bad.

Were you at Iwo? That was an extraordinary battle. A toast to you, sir! :toast:

[Richardo]

30. What she said...

Thanks for your service, Iwo. :toast:

[TahitiNut]

13. Hit 'Alert' on any post that makes such an attack.

Simple. It's specifically disallowed on this forum.

[puerco-bellies]

14. There are many of us here that are vets just like you.

Welcome IwoVet1945. I'm a Naval vet with a Expeditionary ribbon among others for service in the Persian Gulf during the Iranian Hostage crisis. My Granddad served in your Theater during WWII, and earned 5 battle stars serving aboard the U.S.S. Kalinin Bay, most notably participated in the Taffy 3 squadron during the battle of Samar-one.

Were you a corpsman or were you with our sister service?

[IwoVet1945]

18. Thanks

Thanks to all for the welcome. Hopefully, you will allow this old Marine to stay. Were not all republicans you know, some of us stayed proud Democrats while others went to the other side.

I was part of your "sister service" and let me tell you one thing. Navy Corpsmen can drink from my beer any day. Bravest SOBs you ever knew.

Semper Fi to all you Squids out there!

[IwoVet1945]

20. sorry, didn't answer your question.

Yes, I hit Iwo Jima at the ripe old age of 18. Stayed in the Corps until 1969 when I retired. Also served in Korea and Vietnam.

Again, thank you for the welcome.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

31. My Dad's a WWII vet...

...nose-gunner in a B-24 with the 15th Air Force. Flew from a little base in Italy over targets in Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Austria, and Germany.

He'd tell those idiot name-callers on this board to take a hike, and he's do it real quick.

[vetwife]

52. One of my board members was a POW captured at the battle

of the Bulge and 82 years young. Many vets on this board and I Sir am one of the biggest advocates for vets you will ever talk to. I also congratulate you for jumping onto the superhighway !
Welcome and Semper Fi

[EST]

75. May I add my welcome to DU?

Flaming, personal attacks, starting intentional flame bait threads are all specifically prohibited here. Actions do have consequences, however, and expect to meet incisive, intelligent minds, willing to challenge ideas and quite willing to ferret out poorly conceived notions or unsound conclusions-just like family! Again, welcome, jump right in, and don't forget your alert button (lower left corner) to have the moderators sort out any serious difficulties.

[BlueJazz]

15. I'm proud to call you a Fellow DU'er

...and 99.9 percent of us feel that way!
Welcome to DU...

[DrWeird]

16. I've been a democrat for 117 years.

Why is it people apologize for the murder of 16 women and children?

[DS1]

17. Like anywhere else in the world - DU has its percentage of idiots

and instigators.

[leesa]

19. It shouldn't be blanketed that way. However, you must keep an open

mind to the fact that a few US military personnel ARE murderers, although the charge might actually be manslaughter.
The vast majority are caught in a trap not of their own making and must follow orders or be court-martialed.
Of course, given the choice of shooting civilians or losing your job...

[Democracy Died 2004]

21. Yep this is one

of those forums where you have to support the troops no matter what.. Kinda like the bushco if you don't support the troops you a traitor. Ugh America is making me sicker everyday. God bring me back my country please.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

27. The troops didn't have any choice about where they were sent....

...and what they were ordered to do. They initially believed that they were being sent to Iraq for good reasons. None of those reasons have survived the test of time and/or truth.

I'd be willing to bet that even the most gung-ho troopers are starting to question what the hell we're doing in the Middle East. All they're trying to do now is survive long enough to get home in one piece.

[Bridget Burke]

45. As bunnyj said...

"The vast majority of us support our troops, and want them home. If you ran into a douchebag here, consider that it might not be one of ours. We are infiltrated daily by those who would try to make us look bad."

[drdigi420]

141. If there was a god, we wouldn't be in the mess we are in now

[HuckleB]

22. Alas, there is nowhere on the 'Net where one can escape the immature.

I'm glad you are here, and I hope you'll keep posting.

:hi:

[TexasSissy]

25. I think they're young frat kids who think it's cute.

Well, they're not ALL young frat kids. I have made that accusation twice, myself (but I was CERTAIN). I got slapped by the moderator, though. I get the same sort of responses on a bipartisan board I participate in....off the wall, overreaction to anything anyone says that is not 100% the way they think. The Repubs are FAR worse, and much ruder (to put it kindly). But there are some here who use the freeper accusation a little too freely.

But maybe it'd help ease the insult to realize that this board is infiltrated by freepers, who spy and post insane posts occasionally. So we're always sort of on the lookout for that. And people such as yourself, with few posts, seem more suspicious, because there's not a history of pro-Dem. posts.

Hope this helps. I've not seen your posts before, so I can't speak as to specifics. I don't think the military personnel are murderers...that's just nonsense. Democrats support the military as much as the Repubs do. We also love our country as much. The Repubs don't have the market in patriotism cornered, as far as I'm concerned.

[neuvocat]

26. That's a rule here

not to call someone a freeper like that. Let the moderators know who did it.

[johnnie]

29. I think a lot of people are just a bit on the edge right now

We have gotten nailed with a lot of freepers lately. It bugs me when I see people get shit here, but I guess I can understand it in a way.
I also think that some people here have to understand that people register here to learn and discuss things and everyone can't be an instant know all. I always think people should be a little less eager to automatically think "freeper" right off the bat.
As for your service, thank you for that. My father was USMC for 25 years so obviously I respect them a hell of a lot (Kind of had to as a child :) )

[Bjornsdotter]

32. Ignore them...

...actually I've seen a few rude people here....sad.

Welcome to DU, the nice people out number the rude.

Cheers,
Kim :toast:



Edit...spelling

[AmerDem]

33. buck up, use ignore and quit whining.

Once you have made a few posts and folks here know where you are coming from, you wont get this kind of reaction.

[fishnfla]

34. 2 years as a DUer and I have been called a freeper 56 times

Its a big tent brother, dont sweat it

[HuckleB]

175. Dang! You keep count?

Wow! I don't think I've been called "freeper" that many times, but it's at least a dozen or so, if my memory serves me.

[manic expression]

35. Hello

It is very important that we discuss our opinions on this forum honestly, or else we will get very little out of it. The point of true democracy is to work out disagreements.
I will say that I strongly object to how the U.S. Military is used, portrayed and how many act. I have made posts condemning the actions of U.S. servicemen and I will stand by those words. It is suprising that many here claim that I am a "douchebag" for my beliefs. If you would like to discuss this, that would be great (although, this is probably not the right place for that).

[mike_c]

71. agreed, my sig summarizes my view perfectly....

Although I do kinda like being called a "frat boy...."

[Renew Deal]

37. Don't worry about it.

This is just a message board. People are going to say all kinds of shit. I don't think our soldiers are murderers. They are doing what they're told (which is what the Nazi's used to say but I digress). Teh few troublemakers should be punished. The real murderers are guys like Allawi.

[wyldwolf]

38. IwoVet1945, In case you haven't noticed...

...there is a small minority of people who call themselved "small 'd' democrats" here on DU made up of people further left than you and I.

They consist of self described socialists, communists, Greens, etc. and are staunchly anti-military.

They have fooled themselves into thinking they are the "base" of the Democratic party and thus believe they can "out" those who think differently they do.

They have hijacked the terms "liberal" and "progressive" (much like the way the radical right hijacked the republican party and the term "conservative") and assigned certain qualifications for you to be one - one of which is being completely anti-war.

So when you get called a "freeper" for defending our military personel, just realize the ones doing the name calling are frustrated that the government currently is performing contrary to their beliefs and take it with a grain of salt.

The issue of whether our men and women in uniform are "murderers" is a much deeper issue than can be settled on a web forum.

[billbuckhead]

48. small "d" democrats don't have to be extremely leftwing or against our

military. Independents are small "d" democrats almost by defintion.

[Bridget Burke]

56. Not all Leftists are anti-military.....

Remember Country Joe McDonald? The San Francisco (Berkeley, actually) hippie who wrote the anti-Vietnam war anthem "The Feel Like I'm Fixin' to Die Rag"? He was a self-described "red-diaper baby" & served in the Navy (late 50's/early 60's). Less well known than his musical exploits is the fact that he's helped found Berkeley's Vietnam War Memorial. And he's become an expert on military nursing--from Florence Nightingale to Vietnam.

www.countryjoe.com/

In fact, the name "Country Joe" is a reference to the military's code name for Stalin during WWII; "the Fish" is a reference to a line in Mao's writings. I do not remember Stalin or Mao as being pacifists.

[stavka]

73. Actually - some leftists are a little too Pro-Militarism

[wyldwolf]

126. reply to 48 and 56

All good points, but as my post stated, I'm referring to DU members.

[Nlighten1]

133. "Some people have fooled themselves"

Indeed they have.

[wyldwolf]

145. Indeed they have...

[Nlighten1]

185. There are plenty of people here....

who claim they speak for the majority of the Democratic party...

[wyldwolf]

187. that is for sure

[jonnyblitz]

149. some of us "leftists" you so despise happen to be vets ,also.

that could be why we aren't "me too" wingnut DLCers. we don't dare to corroborate with the dark side.

[wyldwolf]

152. attacking?

Didn't say I despised you. But you are very reactionary. Typical.

[NightTrain]

40. First, welcome to DU!

Something you need to understand about DU: we run the gamut from mainstream left to far left. Once you've been around for a bit, you'll know who can be reasoned with and who can't, and on what issues.

I only hope you don't become discouraged and leave DU over this. If your screen name is any indication, you'd have a lot to contribute! :hi:

[Booster]

42. I am totally against ANY uneccessary war, but I damn

sure support our troups. My nephew is in Iraq right now so don't think for one minute that I don't support him and everybody else who is serving or has served in the past. Servicemen and women are the backbone of this country and I admire each and every one of you, and I truthfully thank you for your service. To hell with people who don't support our troops.

[wellstone dem]

43. Thank you for your service

and welcome to DU.

My Dad is also a WWII Vet and I proudly handed him his "Veteran for Kerry" button at a Max Cleland speech that 3 generations of my family attended. You lifelong democrat WWII vets are incredible people. Thank you.

[Flammable Materials]

44. Unfortunately ... welcome to the club.

:hug:

[qanda]

46. Ignore them or hit the alert button on them

Calling someone a troll or a FReeper is against the rules here. And welcome to DU. :hi:

[4MoreYearsOfHell]

47. I salute you sir

for your dedication to our country and your service in a time of war. And for your determination to speak your mind.

Thank you - you ARE at home here...

[vetwife]

49. You wouldn't get that from me Sir ! Everyone here knows that.. I appreci

ate your service and Thank you. This vetwife honors your service as much as anyone can !

[librechik]

50. sorry vet--FYI:the blog wars are real intense right now, and we're

infiltrated constantly. Everybody's on a hair trigger, and newbies are getting hazed more severely than I've ever seen, even by other newbies! Your low post count is setting off alarms everywhere. So don't panic, you're just having some bad luck.

You probably don't spend a whole lot of time on internet forums (nobody but morons with no lives like me do that, snicker) but people who do find out after awhile that you really have to ignore a lot of bullshit because it's flying 24/7.

Just be calm in discussions and reason out your positions. We love rational discussion around here, although not all of us are totally rational. Ignore provocateurs at first, until you learn how to kill the trolls before they eat you (that will take time here as you know personallt how difficult it is to fairly identify a disruptor!) Let more experienced hands take them down, or if they break the rules, click on alert to sic the mods on them.

Warning, there are many rude people here who call a spade a spade and BS BS, and sometimes they call chocolate pudding BS just because they are ignorant and annoying. Oh well, it's a big place, move along. (use the ignore function if you must, it's quite helpful. Try to develop a resistance to harsh ripostes. You might hear a few more than you deserve!

As long as you follow the posted rules, you won't get banned, more or less. The site owners are the final arbiters, and they are fair. Try to learn from the people with >1000 posts (like khephra, UTUSN, TNOE, Jackpine Radical and bpilgrim SoCal, CatWoman and many many others here. )

Stick around and have fun and welcome to DU!
:hi:
Thanks for your service

[Malva Zebrina]

51. The slogan "support the troops" is code for support the mission

there is no way in hell I support the mission. The military is a population just as citizens in the US are citizens and a population half of which, apparently, do support the mission.

While I do not wish to disparage or disrespect any person who served, it is an insane meme to log onto to profess that one "supports the troops"

The "troops" are carrying out the orders of an insane man--they and no one else, are the ones who are dropping the bombs on civilians, and shooting the hell out of civilians in exercises that are certainly within the boundaries of war crimes. No one else is dropping those bombs.

I simply cannot logically in my mind, adopt the moniker of "support the troops" It is a word game that many have adopted out of guilt because we must support these unfortunates who signed up only to be used as pawns by Bush et al or else we are un American.

I do not support this mission, therefore I cannot support the troops.

I understand the predicament they have been forced into, but then, it is a population--for all I know, the majority of troops are out to get and kill any Muslim , man, woman or child out of religious hatred or any of the reasons given by neo cons to kill the Arabs.(Muslims) We do not know this. We do not know that the entire population of "troops" are there against their will and therefore would not perform these atrocities if it were not for their "following orders"

It is time to divest ourselves of the romanticising of the "troops"

Not all are upstanding moral saints, as is the same in any population--OK? And the military votes and has consistently voted Republican. I expect that their vote this time will follow the same route. "As in any population, there will be some who will not vote that way.

I honestly cannot support this mission--no way, no how ,never did and never will, therefore cannot "support the troops" who are performing the slaughter.

[vetwife]

54. Marianne He is a mad man and troops don't have a choice ..if

they don't obey orders he is such a madman, he could have them shot. They have no choice Marianne. Do you really thing all those deaths were due to hostile fire?

[Malva Zebrina]

58. No, it is the meme that has me balking

I perfectly understand the predicament--but cannot adopt or embrace that meme. It nags at the craw. It is a slogan that is better off not being used because it implies that one blindly supports the mission in oder to support the troops. There is no other way to parse it. If you can show me how one can adopt that, and simultaneously be against the mission I would gladly consider it--I have thought about that long and hard in the middle of night when sleep is not forthcoming.



And, once again, it, the "troops", is a population with as much diversity re political beliefs, as our civilian population here in the US. Must we support those who believe they must kill the Muslims, or those who believe they must kill every single one of those who are children unarmed because they are the "enemy"?. Surely, all the troops do not believe that,and on the other hand there are some who do. So how can anyone logically support the entire "troops"?

It is a dilemma and I know this is not popular, but nevertheless, I simply cannot adopt the "support the troops" meme because it is illogical.

[partygirl]

60. I support bringing

them home. I will be very proud of them when they are home. And then they will be safe and the Iraqis will be safe too. Please bring them home. I DO NOT support the war.

[vetwife]

67. I tell you imo how...

Kids who would not have an education buy into the recruiter bull. Remember most are kids. The recruiters prey on kids. the other thing, is we are taught period about how we are to be proud of our country. How else could you explain Native americans, which my husband is, being so patriotic. They are ! More so thatn the anglo, I would say ! Look how they were treated when we came over and took the land. Basically all people are nationalists, no matter where they live.

The other thing, when you believe and you really believe as these young soldiers that their Home, where Mom and Dad and kids live are in real danger from an enemy, they will defend. They are taught from birth to protect. They go into basic and AIT and separated from home for a long period of time and THE DI becomes the Enforcer and tells you over and over that you are courageous and this is worth the fight. How would you know? You are wet behind the ears, you have trusted your government and now you must defend your loved ones. It is not until you get on the battlefield that you realize that what was said is not exactly like it was portrayed. You can't quit, you are now the property of the government, when you signed on the dotted line. You are there. You are fighting to stay alive. the people who make war are rarely the people who fight them. The soldier comes home battle scarred and confused and lives with that trauma for the rest of their lives and that is how you separate the war from the warrior ! They spend the rest of their lives, some shorter than ones who did not go into battle, on guard, a little distrustful,or a lot distrustful, and wiser and older. the ones who want to kill are few. Its not a video game and its not pac man. You don't get 10 more lives. Before the all volunteer military, there absolutely was little choice..DRAFT ! GREETING..GONE>>>
Every country has to have a Defense to protect their people from REAL ENEMIES. We don't live in Utopia..there will always be conflict and those who have fought are very careful about going to war so fast. If they saw battle up close and personal, they will think long and hard before they send anyone into an un necessary war.
I am a peacelover..I can't stand this warmongering chickenhawk...but I do believe in protecting whats left of the Constitution. If one does not believe in that little peice of document, even with all of its flaws, what have we got?

By the way the Natinal Guard and Reserverist over there now, they were trained to protect us here. They were called up. Were they combat ready? I don't know. They were part time soldiers...Brave but part time. ARMY NAVY MARINES AF COAST GUARD were always the ones to fight the big wars ! They did really well in the Persian Gulf but they came home with problems as God only knows what they were exposed to externally and internally via our government. they also had a true international coalition backing them up. All of these people are brave. Anthrax vaccine? Oil fires? Agent Orange in Nam? Radiation in Korea? Who knows what in WWII...Come on, the soldier today and ones past deserve our respect and they EARNED IT !

[Malva Zebrina]

84. I understand,

but maybe it is time to stop the romanticizing of war. We have a Rambo generation--and we do,without a doubt, in this country, romanticize war.

It is time to stop it. Teach children what war is really about, and what the military should be really about--defense of our nation and not imperialistic desires or war profiteering. Stop the war club , special forces romantic stories that make men, "men" Stop the fairy tales about "freedom" and that is what war is about. We have not had a war that defended our "freedoms" since the Revolution or the Civil war. Our 'freedoms' are not in jeapardy, yet I see this war propaganda repeated over and over.

In this war we are NOT defending our freedoms by any stretch of the imagination. In Viet Nam, we were not defending our freedoms. In Korea, we were not defending our freedoms. We could say that in WWII we were defending the freedoms of the peoples of Europe. Yet, in a recent TV broadcast that I watched, that interviewed cadets at West Point, one cadet said she was proud to defend our freedoms.

There is nothing in this world that could ever threaten our freedoms here in the United States. Military and all things military should be used for defense and not for conquest, expecially pre-emptive attacks.

It is the only path to peace.

[vetwife]

92. I agree with you because I live with a war traumatized Vietnam Vet

who hates war and he and I agree it is a money making militarization machine brought on by the Halliburtons and Bell Helicopters and the General Dynamics. I live with those flashbacks he has, his nightmares, his migranes, his agent orange, enough that I started a veterans organization while a vet who was so messed up held a 357 to his head talking to me on the phone screaming for help. My husband fought in the jungles and I talk daily to them about helping them, directing them for help. It took me years to get guns out of this house. We tell the children it all comes down to the negotiating
table..We don't even allow the kids to fight. No play guns in the house. No GI Joes. No war movies. I agree. But I understand the plight of the vet as well. No one here romances the war. It is a nightmare we can't get out of and its been 35 years and yes what Kerry told was true.

[EST]

81. You do make a strong, strong point.

___

[DemBones DemBones]

110. Yes, she does. And I grew up in a military family

so being anti-military is like being anti-human in my mind.

But some people, both in and out of the military, are too gung-ho about taking over the world, while a few people are making a shitload of money off this war. As a few people always do. Do a search for Carlyle Group and learn about some of them, if you're not already familiar with the story.

[LWolf]

86. It's code for republicans, but not for me.

For me, "supporting the troops" is "code" for:

Recognizing that they signed up to serve, and believed that they would not be sent into harm's way unnecessarily.

Recognizing that they've been misused, that their service has been abused, and that they need our support to be adequately supplied, to get home, to be allowed to exit when their term is up, to have access to veteran's benefits when they do.

Recognizing the horrific Catch-22 they've been caught in, having sworn to defend (and to follow orders), believing it to be an honorable thing, and finding that following those orders results in things that bring shame to our country. Recognizing the need for compassion for and care of the young people who have been sold down the river like this.

So I can say I support the troops, in truth as well as in rhetoric.

[Malva Zebrina]

96. Yes, I can see that aspect of it

but--it is not all the troops who have been caught in that dilemma. I know of some,according to their parents,who are proud to serve and are not conflicted at all by the notion that killing civilians is the way to win for the mighty US.

Which leads to the logically absurd proposition to "support the troops" as being a meme not worth adopting--for me.

When people say they "support the troops" they include all the troops. How does one get to say that if there are troops there that , believe they must kill innocent civilians, in order to win and to serve their CIC and defend the freedoms of their country which is thousands of miles away and under no threat?

Surely there are troops on that side of the equation are there not? Do we include those "troops" such as Lyndie England and other who were assigned to Abu Ghraib that performed atrocious torture on the prisoners and seemed to have a good time doing it?

Are we to support those "troops" also?

We cannot make the sweeping generalisation that we support the troops, (all of them) and then go on to qualify which troops we support and which we do not.

That is all I am saying--or trying to say. I am not lacking in compassion for those there--I just cannot say I "support the troops"

[LWolf]

134. Well, "the troops,"

like any other group of people, are made up of individuals. There are going to be diverse mindsets, and there are going to be ethical and unethical people in any group. Of course I don't support torturers, any more than I support spousal or child abuse here at home...but I'd still say I support the families that I serve in my profession, knowing that some of them will be dysfunctional enough to engage in such behaviors. At that point, I support them by getting the abused to safety and getting the abuser help. Or at least restraints.

I keep remembering how many of our "troops" are so young; easily influenced, easily led. And as for those from families who believe that killing = helping, that war = peace, etc., I pity them. I have compassion for those young people whose families have taught them to think this way. Part of it is because I've had a family member (sort of--do ex's count?) deployed to the mid-east in the past, and remember what his experience was like. And that was in a time of peace. Part of it is because my son's best friend, who I've watched grow up, enlisted in '02, and partly because one of my former students served in Iraq, and came back last spring to tell me all about it. So the troops aren't faceless to me; they aren't Lyndie England, they are people I know and care about.

I can support "the troops" and still support the well-being of Iraqi citizens; I think the distinction is to place blame where it belongs. Not at the bottom of the ladder, but at the top, where the decision to go to war began. At the top, where the decisions about the "occupation," and the on-going strikes are made, and the orders given.

I can "support" them without supporting the action they've been ordered to engage in; and I think it is important for them to know that I don't hold them responsible for the decisions of their insane commander in chief.

But then, I don't really think we're in disagreement here. Support can mean many things. It doesn't have to mean public proclamations, many of which are empty. Support can be the letters and supplies we send to one or two young people; it can be the place in my home the young soldier friend of my son finds when he comes home on leave. He stays with me and visits his parents on day trips. There is unconditional care here, and he knows it. It can be the words of support I offer my former student. I don't have ribbons, buttons, stickers, or other politically motivated messages of "support." Although I did spend the first few weeks of the war on a local street corner waving signs with a group of people, one of which said, "Support our troops---bring them home NOW!"

[meow mix]

53. freepers are murderers.. are freeper-soldiers? i dunno

but either way,
often times freeper-moles have low post counts, and come out of the gate swinging. like rabid dogs..
--boom. im here. gwarrr rar raarr rarrar, snarl attack--

and so if this is what u did i can understand why anyone would be suspicious. its just classic freeper m.o.

[Kanary]

103. nice assumptions

:crazy:

[moondust]

55. Many vets here.

Including myself. I think there's a few fringe radicals on every political board. You can always put the worst offenders on ignore and move on.

Welcome IwoVet1945! :hi:

[barb162]

57. first of all welcome, second,

my dad was in WWII for 5 years and third, pay no attention to cetain posters. For some reason or other, I could swear some people wake up in a bad mood and take it out on other posters, some are just argumentative morons, some others don't want to hear facts and deduce from those facts, etc.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[manic expression]

63. It's important that

people definitely give other opinions and the holders of those opinions some respect at least. I encourage those who want to talk about this to start a thread so we can discuss it instead of insulting each other mindlessly.

[stavka]

77. ...err...Our Armed Forces has its problems

but some of our troops in Vietnam, and now clearly Iraq and Afghanistan are murderers and tortures...the military and civilian authorities have convicted them of that.

I am happy to read that American soldiers seem to have backed off the rape angle over the last 30 years.

[manic expression]

78. those convicted soldiers got

nowhere near the amount they should have gotten, and what is even more distressing is that the real crimes were committed all the way up the chain of command. Everyone involved in that should be put in prison for a VERY long time. Justice, simple justice, is all I ask.

[stavka]

83. You'll never find justice

Work for PEACE

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stavka]

97. ...ok, admitting possible fault...I can't find any post on this thread?

If it's about selling shirts?

I find that kind of political/religious/ethnic/cause cannibalism a little tacky - and bad merchandising in any case if you use CAFE they are the ones making all the money.

[vetwife]

98. its my signature for helping DU and the Guy James Show..nothing more !

I don't make a dime...and I take my faith seriously. I am not a winger ! They do that ! And you are right Cafe does make all the money ! Du and guy gets the leftovers. I get zip !
Look again..there are three on this thread.

[greed]

61. Alert!!!

Just kidding

[jbm]

93. welcome to DU greed!

:hi:

[WLKjr]

62. I put out a Welcome to you

:D Welcome to DU :D

Some here freak out at low post numbers because we have had some start off nasty and leave or get tombstoned really quick. Some people are just still burned by them and start to call out everyone with low post counts as if it just passed their mind. Don't worry.

Peace out

[Aristus]

64. Put 'em on Ignore, IwoVet.

I feel bad that the soldiers are over there having to follow the orders of the Chimp-In-Chief. They get branded murderers, while the bloodthirsty chickenhawk armchair warriors who sent them get lauded as 'strong' and 'decisive'.

I'm a Gulf War veteran, sir, and if I may, I'd like to thank you for your service in WWII. Thank you. Please stay here at DU. We are proud of you and need more like you. :yourock:

[0007]

65. Mark Twain called soldiers paid assassins.

[wettap]

68. No worrys...

I called Kitty Kelly a gossip whore and was chastized for essentially not being a team player.

I said I supported Joe Lieberman, and suddenly I was "Bush Light".

I said I am a moderate, and suddenly I am a McCarthy-ite.

[JimmyJazz]

169. Hey you non team playing, Lieberman loving, McCarthy-ite

:toast: welcome aboard.

Things are a little tense right now, but hang in there. We really do value and respect your opinions. Remember, most of us were just born to argue! :)

[EST]

70. This place has been very badly infiltrated, recently

Even more than ordinarily, with freepers and other assorted haters. It is certainly understandable, what with that and the horrors being perpetrated by the ruling crazy bastards, that folks are a bit jumpy.
Chalk it up to battle jitters and try to be as patient as possible.
Show yer colors early, if you can!

[stavka]

74. Most important thing in your e-life symbolically is getting high

..and you expect a World War II vet from Iwo to take you seriously?

[EST]

89. Actually the most important thing in my symbolic life

is the ability to think clearly and independently without mistaking my own assumptions and prejudices about other people for facts.

[stavka]

94. Can't argue with that....

But your opinions will forever carry the handicap of the cannabis leaf, just like using a Jack Daniels label.

Personally, I try not to judge on instant impressions, but most do...

Despite my restraint, I must confess - using a pot leaf, big minus when it comes to credibility/reliability.

Why? I KNOW

[EST]

106. Depends on which circles and what audiences

one may wish to establish credibility with. Alternative theory suggests that there may well be certain audiences with whom one may wish no credibility at all. Consider protective coloration.
1-Forever is rather a long time
2-'Most' is an unsupportable generalization
3- One's own restraint used as a badge of assumed superiority represents untenable bigotry
4-Confession, some say, is good for the hypothetical soul
5-As previously stated, one's own opinions as to the value of another's choices represents only that-opinions, and certainly not reality
6-Any equivalency between intoxicants and/or the quality or value of same is strictly in the eye of the beholder and has no absolute relationship to reality
7-One must consider, too, the mote in God's eye

[Mudcat]

107. re: Depends on which circles and what audiences

One must consider, too, the mote in God's eye

And on the third hand... :))

People get too emotional about the issues, and critical thinking goes out the window.

I've been a Freeper for over 6 years... but usually vote Libertarian, primarily because I believe what Eisenhower said about the military-industrial complex, and partly because I want the war on drugs to end. I generally distrust politicians, strongly dislike mandatory taxes, & question the need for federal government regulation of the major aspects of my life.

It sucks, believing in Democrat-ic goals and Republic-an means.

In the meantime, people on the far left and far right hate each other's guts, and that's sad. FR used to be open for discussion from all points of the compass, but that's radically changed in the past 2-3 years. People get censored & kicked off, merely for expressing an opinion that's contrary to the crowd. I see the same thing starting to happen in DU now... and that's sad, too. One thing I've always respected about liberals, and most democrats, was the idea that everyone has the right to express an opinion, to be heard. It's why I donate to the ACLU, and even DU - even if I disagree with 2/3rds of the discussions, at least there exists a discourse. What joy would our liberties be, if all were plain vanilla?

I hope the thread initiator sticks around, even if someone called him a Freeper. It would be really nice if someday we could all get along, left and right alike, in polite discourse... but I suppose this best "starts at home" :) I'm proud to be a Freeper, but yet still ashamed of many of the hurtful & asinine things done by my brethren & sistren.

ps I would have voted for Tsongas. Heck, I would've voted for him twice, coulda/shoulda/woulda!

[EST]

115. Wow! Considerable food for voracious mind, here.

What a pleasent experience, reading a post by someone who isn't trying to be an e-terrorist. I don't think it says, anywhere in the rules, that a person needs to be barred for having opinions that can be discussed and evaluated, rather, the principal reasons are disruption and generally bad manners.

The real problems arise with the usurping of traditional republican values and pursueing the creation of a fascist state, while calling it something else. References to an extremist left wing or left wing radical position betrays a lack of knowledge-an immanently repairable lack, of course. The first thing, in my opinion, a person must do in the world is to take a position that the truth must be told- every time.

When one takes a look in the bible, one of the things one discovers is a story that begins approximately thus: In the beginning was the word, and the word was with god, and the word was god. A notion that I have found enormously valuable is that the world is real- we make it real- with, or because of, words. Words are very important, perhaps of supreme importance. As children, babies growing up, our worlds and our memories take shape as we begin to word them. Our memories assume a time tracking element by being worded.

Find a dictionary or google one and look up liberal and conservative and think about them a bit, particularly in the context of the specific lessons that Jesus was trying to teach, ie., generosity, fairness, tolerance, and forgiveness. I predict that you will be shocked. PM me or catch me on this thread or others and, maybe, we can come up with a thread that will accomplish the beginning of the goal of reuniting America and ending our collectve nightmare. Thanks

[Mudcat]

123. Interesting thoughts, indeed, Rev...

While our beliefs vary much (my religiousity tends toward deism), our similar ethics appear to attenuate those differences in effect.

Regardless of whether I believe the Bible or not (and, to be honest, rather not than otherwise), one can still recognize the wisdom of the lessons of Jesus... and I concur with your assessment (fairness, generosity, tolerance, and forgiveness), with additional consideration for the underlying theme that all efforts towards good endeavors, thoughts, and deeds ought be voluntary. Not coerced. Not laid down by the heavy hand of The Man. Not "lawed" into effect.

Perhaps therein lies much of our modern left/right hatefulness -- the right drives laws towards mandatory this 'n that (abortion, censorship, selective service) & the left does the same (health care, affirmative action, environment). Fredrich Bastiat had some interesting ideas about using The Law in this way... we'd be better off convincing each other through persuasive, reasoned argument, than through the modern circus of police, courts, and convoluted legalisms.

I'm right with you, though, in the spirit of things: Jesus wanted us to be good to each other, and that's a very decent idea.

[EndElectoral]

79. Hang in there friend...A lot here are just panicky the G Man is gonna win

I certainly don't see our soldiers as murderers...pretty much victims in GW's pre-emptive lie....

[LWolf]

80. Well, I disagree with plenty of people here,

and I'm about as far from Republican as it gets. I think I've read something like that once here at DU, maybe about a year ago; most of us strongly support our troops. We have many veterans, and some people with family members in Iraq. Of course, if the particular military personnel you are referring to is the commander in chief or the Secretary of Defense and his deputy, you're likely to hear some attacks.

I think what you are getting is an acute stress response. For many right now, the only thing to think about, talk about, or agonize over is the outcome of Nov. 2, and they've boarded a runaway freight train; anything on the track, crossing the track, or on the side of the road is fair game. So I've been avoiding the tracks.

[notadmblnd]

82. you sir are mistaken,

I have never in my time here heard anyone refer to our service men as murderers. If this a fact, please link your supporting thread.

[Ms. Clio]

87. I'm bookmarking this thread

It's just one of the many, many threads I have seen here in the past 3 1/2 years full of welcome and support for anyone who claims to have been or to be a member of our armed forces, and, like all the rest of them, totally destroys the right-wing, freeper myth that "libruls" are "far leftists" who don't "support the troops."

[Zen Democrat]

85. Remember there are lots of Dems in the military -- and we need them there.

The last thing we need is for the military to become a Republican-only operation.

[mhr]

88. Murder For You Here - This Was A War Crime Pure And Simple

If you do not agree that makes you a FREEPER!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1303827,00.html

'He's just sleeping, I kept telling myself'

On Sunday, 13 Iraqis were killed and dozens injured in Baghdad when US helicopters fired on a crowd of unarmed civilians. G2 columnist Ghaith Abdul-Ahad, who was injured in the attack, describes the scene of carnage - and reveals just how lucky he was to walk away
Ghaith Abdul-Ahad
Tuesday September 14, 2004

The Guardian

It started with a phone call early on Sunday morning: "Big pile of smoke over Haifa Street." Still half asleep I put on my jeans, cursing those insurgents who do their stuff in the early morning. What if I just go back to bed, I thought - by the time I will be there it will be over. In the car park it struck me that I didn't have my flak jacket in the car, but figured it was most probably just an IED (improvised explosive device) under a Humvee and I would be back soon.

On the way to Haifa Street I was half praying that everything would be over or that the Americans would seal off the area. I haven't recovered from Najaf yet.

Haifa Street was built by Saddam in the early 80s, part of a scheme that was supposed to give Baghdad a modern look. A long, wide boulevard with huge Soviet high-rise buildings on both sides, it acts like a curtain, screening off the network of impoverished alleyways that are inhabited by Baghdad's poorest and toughest people, many of whom are from the heart of the Sunni triangle.

When I arrived there I saw hundreds of kids and young men heading towards the smoke. "Run fast, it's been burning for a long time!" someone shouted as I grabbed my cameras and started to run.

When I was 50m away I heard a couple of explosions and another cloud of dust rose across the street from where the first column of smoke was still climbing. People started running towards me in waves. A man wearing an orange overall was sweeping the street while others were running. A couple of helicopters in the sky overhead turned away. I jumped into a yard in front of a shop that was set slightly back from the street, 10 of us with our heads behind the yard wall. "It's a sound bomb," said a man who had his face close to mine.

Snip ......

[donheld]

102. tell'em to stick it!

look what some are doing to John Kerry. stand your ground. Know you're welcome here

:yourock: :hi: and to whoever is saying you're a freeper :spank::spank::spank::spank::spank::spank::spank::spank::spank::spank::spank::spank::spank:

[Kanary]

104. Please, if someone calls you a freeper, hit alert. It's against rules!

There is no need to take that kind of behavior at all. It's against the rules, and hitting alert on it should bring a mod to delete their message.

I'm sorry this is happening to you. There is a lot of attacking here, and many just don't understand just how damaging it is.

To answer your question about why people do this......... because they don't know how to communicate clearly, and in getting angry they imitate the RW, who goes for personal attacks rather than to address issues. I mean, the M.O. is really familiar, isn't it?

Kanary :hi:

[Kathy in Cambridge]

105. Thank you for your service

My father is a Korean War veteran, my maternal grandfather a WWII vet and two uncles went to Vietnam.

It's not the soldiers but rather the government who is responsible for the mess in Iraq.

[Droopy]

108. Hang in there, IwoVet1945

I've got somewhere around 3500 posts and I still get called a freeper on occasion. It usually happens in a back handed sort of way. Some people don't seem to understand that just because you disagree on some issue it doesn't mean you'll be punching the card for Bush in November. There's a lot of good stuff happening on this site and it far out-weighs the bad stuff. Hang around for a little while and I think you'll see what I mean. Welcome to DU.

[Skittles]

109. ok that just bites

I don't like it when the military is called murderers either - perhaps it takes being a veteran to truly understand why.

Susan
Air Force Veteran

P.S. Iwo - welcome to the DU. :hi:

[Swamp Rat]

111. Welcome to DU IwoVet1945!

:toast:

[gulliver]

112. Link? I doubt what you are saying.

Sorry, but I haven't seen anyone here call US Military personel murderers. I won't say no one has called you a freeper. Unless you can show a link to a DU thread that substantiates this post, I'll have to assume you are "saying the thing which is not so."

[Wonk]

120. Link, fwiw

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=833151&mesg_id=833783

[DemBones DemBones]

113. I haven't seen anyone calling our military "murderers"

but maybe I'm tuning out a lot of the newer posters. I know from experience that we get a lot of disruptors here. I always call people on bad behavior when I see it, though, and so can you. You can also alert on them for that and for calling you a freeper.

My dad served in the PTO during WW II and was a lifer, too.

Welcome to DU. :hi:

[pa28]

114. I read some of your posts under the Fallujah thread

You are correct that to lay the responsibility on anybody but Bush is misplacing the blame. It's easy to forget that many of our soldiers had the best intentions when signing up. Many came from small towns and had family traditions in the military. They assumed they would be called upon only when necessary and really did want to protect and defend America.

In reality they wound up serving the purposes of a corrupt commander in chief. They have been betrayed just as we all have . . . hang in there iwovet.

[TryingToWarnYou]

116. Im sorry for your experience...

Welcome to DU.

Its a sad fact that differing opinions are seldom welcome here. Dont take it personal though. Just speak your piece and batton down the hatches.

[UdoKier]

117. I don't know whether you're a freeper or not...

...but trying to spread this meme that "libs/DUers are against the troops" is not kosher with me, since I've NEVER seen such a post.

It's like the old urban legend that "troops returning from Vietnam were spit on"

I have NEVER heard of a documented case of this actually happening. Although there were some angry folks who shouted "baby-killer", there were a great many protesters at that time who urged soldiers to NOT GO, to join the movement, to STAY ALIVE. They wanted our boys home safe and sound as much as anyone else. A lot of them had friends and siblings over there, but now they are being re-cast as druggie, hippie, anti-American commies.

It was a lie then, and it's a lie now, and this war is just as filthy and unjust as that one.

The only "military personnel" I've called murderers are Bush and Rummy - and they aren't REALLY military, since their worthless asses are NOT on the line.

I salute our troops, even though what they are doing is wrong, and I know for a fact that MANY of them disagree with it.

So STOP painting liberals with this dishonest brush. I can't believe this thread hasn't been locked yet.

[Wonk]

119. link

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=833151&mesg_id=833783

I'm also rather surprised that this thread hasn't been locked yet.

[UdoKier]

121. Hmm...

Unfortunately, I know a few democrats who think like this...

But thanks, you shed a bit more light on the poster. I'm glad I'm not a mod.

[Bridget Burke]

127. In cyberspace, nobody can tell that you're a dog....

(Not a comment on your avatar!)

Just wondering that we've got a new poster who's pushing 80.

[Rhiannon12866]

124. Huh?! Our military are far from murderers, they are heroes

They are those who are being forced into the line of fire and are those who are being sacrificed. Please forgive my fellow DUers. We are pretty sensitive just now. Since you are new to the board, they are suspicious. We have had a lot of Freeper posts, this close to the election. I welcome you to DU. As a veteran, you can provide some real insights. I am very glad that you decided to join us.:-)

Welcome to DU!!!:toast:

[snowFLAKE]

125. My Condolences

After all, anyone with any capacity for rationale thought can easily figure out that those 4 million civilians who died in SouthEast Asia in the 60s/70s and the 50,000 or so who died in Iraq over the past 18 years DIED PEACEFUL DEATHS FROM NATURAL CAUSES. US military action in the area had nothing to do with it - what a bunch of morans!!

[JNelson6563]

128. Some troops are murderers

Anyone remember that footage of the three Iraqis who were killed? Looked like farmers. One was young, so young he skipped across the road to the tactor. Well the film shows each one of these guys getting obliterated. They were unarmed and at one point wounded on the ground. Oh boy did they nail those dangerous farmers but good!

Oh but I support that ruthless murder! You betcha! Otherwise I'm unAmerican and I might offend some other poster. :eyes:

Yes, dead babies, women, farmers, torture, rape and all manner of horror committed on the Iraqis. All done by a bunch of folks we should be willing to give our left arm for.

Especially encouraging was the stupid ass soldier who was back from Iraq that I saw on TV enthusiastially supporting the idiot usurper. Oh, yes. By all means every one of these folks deserve my unquestioning, unwavering support.

Get real.

Julie

[JSJ]

137. more than just some-and let's not forget that nt

[Bridget Burke]

129. There are many veterans on this board.

If you were to post a summary of your military career, I'm sure some would be glad to share experiences with you. I'd like to hear more, as well; several members of my family have had military careers, but those who fought in WWII have been gone for some time.

[Julien Sorel]

130. Something tells me that the prototypical

"average American," upon reading this thread and others here, would be unlikely to want to trust his or her security to the party that harbors some of these sentiments.

I know if I were a soldier, I wouldn't be all that interested in a party that was the refuge of people who painted with such a large brush.


But, that's neither here nor there. Winning elections so you can keep the U.S. military out of future Iraqs isn't important; what's important is that you be able to vent your rage and indignation, and demonstrate your moral superiority. Besides, gutter patriotism is for the Republicans, and everyone knows they're dumbasses, unlike us.

[Ms. Clio]

143. What on earth are you talking about?

How would reading this thread, in particular, make Mr. or Mrs. Average American unhappy? The overwhelming majority of the posts express nothing but welcome and support for this person and all who serve in the military.

Jesus H. Christ. Mother Theresa would be hard-pressed to get such an outpouring of affection and respect.

[Julien Sorel]

146. I'm willing to bet that they don't have threads like this

on Free Republic. Why? Because the topic never comes up at all. I imagine slamming the military is a bannable offense there. Here, it's just another day. Someone posted a link to a thread in LBN which had some particularly vitriolic posts; I suggest you take a look at it.

I'm not suggesting the military is above approach, mind you, but the simple fact is the Democrats have a very small, but very vocal, minority that despises the military and everything about it; the Republicans don't. And that causes huge headaches for this party beyond the simple military and ex-military vote, because it colors the way people think about Democrats as patriots and on the issue of defense. If we could turn that one perception around, it would, I believe, completely eliminate the tide we swim against in elections and on some issues that are totally unrelated to the military.

[Ms. Clio]

148. I'm willing to bet they don't have threads that denounce bigotry

against Arabs, Muslims, or gays, either. Why? Because the topic never comes up at all--they are all bigots and haters, and slamming their fellow freepers for that is probably a bannable offense, too. Why isn't it an equally huge headache for the Republicans, that they have a very small, but very vocal minority, that despises minorities and people of other religions?

I've read, now, literally thousands--maybe tens of thousands--of posts since I started lurking in about February of 2001, and for every post that is remotely critical of "the troops" there are hundreds more that genuflect at the very mention of them--no actual proof of service required, either. That is really a DU urban legend, and I could prove it, if the archives weren't down.

I am well aware of the thread. I'd be willing to bet I'll still be here long after some of the freepers on that thread have finally gone to their well-deserved graves (in fact, one of them already has).

[Julien Sorel]

157. What exactly does bigotry have to do with

being anti-military? You'll have to forgive me if I never developed a taste for red herring.

[Ms. Clio]

158. As much as what freepers do or don't post about the military

has to do with what is posted here about anything at all, I imagine. You're the one that originally drew the comparison, I just extended it.

It boils down to it being the same old tired bullshit that Dems or DUers are anti-military, and this thread demonstrates it.

[Julien Sorel]

159. You extended it in a meaningless fashion.

I brought "freepers" into it to highlight the difference between the way Republican activists deal with the subject of the military versus the way Democratic activists deal with the subject of the military. You brought bigotry into it because you had nothing worthwhile to say -- on the subject of the military.

[Ms. Clio]

160. You are making a blanket statement about Dem activists

which is what most DUers would identify themselves as, that is simply not supported by this thread, nor any others I have seen here in 3 1/2 years.

[Julien Sorel]

161. I made an observation.

Allow me to quote myself:

I'm not suggesting the military is above approach, mind you, but the simple fact is the Democrats have a very small, but very vocal, minority that despises the military and everything about it; the Republicans don't.

Are you done squirming, or will there be another red herring? I'm getting bored.

[Ms. Clio]

163. Not nearly as bored as I am

You started out your profound contributions to this thread by saying any average Joe who read it would be shocked and appalled by the sentiments expressed therein.

When I called you on that, and pointed out that to the contrary, 99% of the posts were positive and supportive, you started yammering about a very small vocal minority, which, if it actually exists, is not in evidence here.

Then you dragged in what freepers say about the military, as if what they say or think actually matters, or had any relevance to this thread. The idea that Republicans are more supportive of the military because they mouth slogans while sending them off to die in illegal, unjust wars is absurd.

All because what you originally posted was flat-ass wrong--about DU, and about most Dems.

Meanwhile, another troll is chuckling because so many swallowed the bait.

[Cocoa]

131. freepers love fighting strawmen

sometimes they sign up to DU just to slay strawmen.

[Junkdrawer]

135. Having examined the evidence, that would be my conclusion....

Judge for yourself:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=833151&mesg_id=833783

[Selwynn]

140. Thanks, that is EXACTLY what I figured, just needed the thread to see it.

[Ms. Clio]

144. And then they go back to freeperland and laugh their asses off n/t

[sadiesworld]

132. Thank-you for your service...

and Welcome to DU, IwoVet1945! :hi:

[Kanary]

136. As you can see from some of the replies, some here consider hazing to be

an appropriate political sport.

Many leave because of it.

Maybe those of us who think it stinks can figure out a way to rid DU of hazing.

Kanary

[Selwynn]

139. I'm calling bullshit on this.

I want to see specific examples of all the threads in which someone has called the troops murderers.

I'm not talking about calling rumsfeld a murderer, or the administration murderous - becuase that is an understandable sentiment, whether you agree or not.

I'm talking about all the threads in which someone has said that the boys and girls on the ground in iraq are murderers. I want to see a list of every thread in which that has happened.

...becuase guess what, its going to prove out to be the exception to the rule. I don't have enough of a life these last few months, and because of that I spend too much time on this site. But the one thing I can say with confidence, is that DU members are going around calling troops murderers in any significant number. The vast majority of sentiment here is overwhelmingly to bring our boys and girls HOME NOW, with NO DELAY. Much of the DU community is involved in some way with sending care packages and other kinds of gestures of kindness to the troops, as well as trying to support an administration and policy that will save their lives.

And to those of you smearing "leftys" on this thread you can fuck right off. It's not synonymous with those of us who are on the radical left that me must hate troopse even if we oppose politically bullshit wars.

I'm not doubting that you have been attacked by someone calling you a freeper. There will always be miniority of people who are jerks. But I am doubting any claim that there is some kind of significant attitude of hatred towards our troops, and if you disagree I challenge you to prove it. Otherwise, hit the ignore button on the exceptions that mistreat you, hit alert on the posts that are offensive, and move on.

[jonnyblitz]

150. me too. I am a Vet and I DONT SEE THAT ON HERE.

any low post count rabble rouser can say anything..

[Puglover]

155. Selwynn...

I'm with you. I have NEVER seen one thread on DU calling the soldiers murderers. Bush et al yes but not the troops. I also have always heard that people "spitting in the faces of Vietnam vets" was a R.W. myth.

[Redleg]

189. There is a small group here at DU that hate the troops.

Most respect the troops for the tough jobs they have to do.

[G_j]

142. we MUST find a way to support the troops AND the truth

The same contention happens around the discussion of the Vietnam war.
We must be able to support our troops and address the truth.
Just as in Vietnam it does not work to think of those who fought as either all good or all bad. We can't villainise the troops nor can we gloss over atrocities. It is a very painful topic.
-----------
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=51&ItemID=6217

From Vietnam to Fallujah

. by Fran Schor September 13, 2004

The recent controversy surrounding the "Swift Boat Veterans" ad challenging John Kerry's Vietnam record and his later statements as a leader of Vietnam Veterans against the War (VVAW) have fallen into predictable partisan perspectives. Republicans and their media attack machine still insist that Kerry's medals are suspect and his VVAW activities were treasonous. Kerry and the Democrats, in turn, have found further documentary evidence and eye-witness accounts to support his version of the Vietnam incidents. As far as Kerry's 1971 testimony about US atrocities in Vietnam, Kerry has reiterated that he was just recounting reports from the Winter Soldier Investigations. In addition, he tried earlier to deflect criticism of his VVAW positions by claiming that some of his statements were overzealous and part of the heated rhetoric of the times. In effect, the Bush Administration and Republicans have tried to deny that atrocities took place while Kerry and the Democrats have tried to minimize or marginalize them.

For those who have studied the historical record of the US prosecution of the war in Southeast Asia, neither the Republicans nor Democrats have confronted the full measure of those atrocities and what their legacy is especially in the war on Iraq. While most studies of the war in Southeast Asia acknowledge that 4 times the tonnage of bombs was dropped on Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos than that used by the US in all theaters of operation during World War II, only a few, such as James William Gibson's The Perfect War: Technowar in Vietnam, analyze the full extent of such bombing. Not only were thousands of villages in Vietnam totally destroyed, but massive civilian deaths, numbering close to 3 million, resulted in large part from such indiscriminate bombing. Integral to the bombing strategy was the use of weapons that violated international law, such as napalm and anti-personnel fragmentation bombs. As a result of establishing free-fire zones where anything and everything could be attacked, including hospitals, US military operations led to the deliberate murder of mostly civilians.

While Rumsfeld and the Pentagon have touted the "clean" weapons used in Iraq, the fact is that aerial cluster bombs and free-fire zones have continued to be part of present day military operations. Villages throughout Iraq, from Hilla to Fallujah, have borne and are bearing US attacks that take a heavy civilian toll. Occasionally, criticisms of the type of ordnance used in Iraq found its way into the mainstream press, especially when left-over cluster bomblets looking like yellow food packages blow up in children's hands or depleted uranium weapons are dropped inadvertently on British soldiers. However, questions about the immorality of "shock and awe" bombing strategy have been buried deeper than any of the cluster bomblets.

In Vietnam, a primary ground war tactic was the "search and destroy" mission with its over-inflated body counts. As Christian Appy forcefully demonstrated in Working Class War: American Combat Soldiers and Vietnam, such tactics were guaranteed to produce atrocities. Any revealing personal account of the war in Vietnam, such as Ron Kovic's Born on the Fourth of July, underscores how those atrocities took their toll on civilians and US soldiers, like Kovic. Of course, certain high-profile atrocities, such as My Lai, achieved prominent media coverage (almost, however, a year after the incident.) Nonetheless, My Lai was seen either as an aberration and not part of murderous campaigns such as the Phoenix program with its thousands of assassinations or a result of a few bad apples, like a Lt. Calley, who nonetheless received minor punishment for his command of the massacre of hundreds of women and children. Moreover, as reported in Tom Engelhardt's The End of Victory Culture, "65% of Americans claimed not to be upset by the massacre" (224). Is it, therefore, not surprising that Noam Chomsky asserted during this period that the US had to undergo some sort of de- nazification in order to regain some moral sensitivity to what US war policy had produced in Vietnam


..more..

[camero]

147. If US servicemen commit war crimes

then they are. Should we praise the guards at Abu Gharib, since they are "servicemen"?

[jonnyblitz]

151. aaah...where did mr. hit and run "VET" go?

snicker.

[wyldwolf]

153. perhaps he has a life outside of DU?

:shrug:

[jonnyblitz]

172. then he shouldn't start trouble like this unless he is gonna

stick around. The only people with low post counts who do this sort of thing are usually..well..nevermind..I can't believe you are THAT naive..geesh Wyldwolf.

[wyldwolf]

186. as of this moment, he hasn't been tombstoned

...

[Trahurn]

156. I have no trouble with it

When someone in a military uniform takes aim, fires and kills an unarmed civilian it is not self defense. Therefore you are only left with homicide. I firmly believe the military has been doing all of Bush's murder. That's just the way it is. Sorry and I'm a veteran and a life long very liberal democrat.

[Name removed]

162. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RetroLounge]

166. I agree, does not pass the Smell Test.

RL

[The_Casual_Observer]

173. As the subject of the original "spit on" remark

I would tend to agree, however some of this could be chalked up to raw emotion I guess.


It isn't the fault of the solders, they have no other choice in this mess. They either go along with it or wind up in jail or worse. They are forced to "support my commander in chief".

[Name removed]

174. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

176. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[saigon68]

178. Especially the part of how he "BELIEVED " Viet-Nam was a good cause

No one I know, regardless of political affiliation who was there, thinks it was a good cause.

[Name removed]

179. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

177. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Wonk]

183. Here's one of the URLs that Saigon68 posted in the message that got zapped

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=833151&mesg_id=834354&page=

I'll refrain from further comment on the matter so as not to get this post deleted too.

[PATRICK]

164. Then a little historical perspective should unruffle all feathers

We'll start with one we can remember: Vietnam. The only societies where dissent is not allowed are scarier than the ones when public angst, hate and fear run amok because the central powers erect the walls on the fault lines and cringe behind the flag. ALL wars and all soldiers can tend to "atrocities". The only true stigma should attach to the cynics who sent them there and to what purpose. The ones hiding behind the soldiers thrust into these predictable situations like lambs with Uzis are rarely touched.

The same way people who were duped into accepting manipulation into war(people HATE to admit they were party to such an unjust horror) they are deflected from doing anything other than pointing accusatory fingers at the soldiers(whose hard actions are spoiling the nice illusions) when things go wrong(aka "losing").

In my workplace management tries to illegally increase its employment of low paid part time fill ins. Guess who gets the brunt of worker anger? Guess who never feels any heat from this anger? And those lower pain innocents are not scabs in any sense of the word anymore than a soldier is a criminal. Though it could be the case in particulars.

War is THE crime or a criminal necessity. Only soldiers get the dirt and the death and certain blame. They have to share the praise and glory with homies and chickenhawk planners.

On these boards- I have not seen them all, no has any new poster for sure- most people with a tendency to really lay into the war crime issue are genuine pacifists who should not be reviled but respected for a moral stance above the common practice. Wiser- or more pragmatic- heads almost always prevail and anger is redirected or modified much more wisely and kindly than in the past. Considering the progressive nature of this forum- which would end the conditions that create the evil necessity(if ever) of war- the soft treatment of OUR soldiers shows loyalty to OUR American people despite the fact that as war goes it is the brutally same old same old monstrosity to which no nation or cause can claim any moral superiority in execution. If anything, the treatment of wartime soldiers is empathic or grimly tolerant.

Chanting "Babykillers!" as in the sixties rarely breaks surface here and no more than any ranting outbreak of moral outrage reduced to sometimes to incoherent agony. There is no romance about war, no sentiment to match the foot blown off a baby, nothing admirable about a tank crushing an unarmed citizen. To accept such as part of the honorable, unquestionable package is to dishonor the very purpose of a nation's soldiery. To believe that every human put in these circumstances will find a way to avoid atrocities is plain nuts. Our forces are degrading much as any force in the past has done in similar circumstances.

Prevention, peace, limited and reluctant use of force, and very much the opposite of every single policy implementation of this fraudulent executive branch that has killed countless thousands, poisoned millions more for crass gain and the death of America itself. ALL our hands are bloodied by being dupes or lazy collaborationists with this unjust occupation. What did we expect? And do we expect those outraged or those victims NOT to cry out in any way they think fit? Fewer wise or good citizens than ever will even enlist seeing how little they can trust their own government. Certainly chickenhawk elites won't. That leaves only war lovers and those easily tricked.

[JimmyJazz]

170. Free advice is only worth what you paid for it, but

a signature line might help a bit. It tells a lot about a person.

[ever_green]

180. ?

So a "freeper" is a republican?

[Ms. Clio]

182. Hi, Sara, welcome to DU

I believe most freepers identify themselves as Republicans, although most of them probably would not be recognized as such by the few remaining moderates and mainstreamers in their party.

[The_Casual_Observer]

188. Freeper is what freerepublic site posters call themselves

It is a vile rw horror.

[sffreeways]

181. Don't be thin skinned

I've been skewered by some people here too and so have many a good and loyal liberal here at DU. You're new for one thing and you'll learn after a while to think about what you say. Not that you'll have to censor yourself but you learn that you have to give your words some critique before you just blurt out sentiments, especially if they are emotional. And you have to think about the emotions of others. If you don't get the boot you're probably fine. If you do, generally you don't belong here in the first place.

There is a DU legend named lonster said he was a dem but he had a way of expressing himself that got under peoples skin. He was here forever and I don't think he ever got banned. I used to think he was a freeper for sure but he wasn't. Just a conservative democrat that didn't agree with the majority here. Actually he was kinda fun having around even though he really pissed most of us off.

[flaminbats]

190. only freepers would order US Military personnel to commit murder..

so who is the traitor, the soldier loyally following orders or the psycho giving those orders? :kick:

welcome to DU! ;)

[neebob]

191. Sing with me

He's a freeper
She's a freeper
Everybody here's a freeper
Wouldn't you like to be a freeper, too?

I know that's probably not very original. Otherwise, what Marianne said.

[Hippo_Tron]

193. I don't think that they are murderers, I think Bush is the murderer

They don't really have a choice.

[Dastard Stepchild]

194. Freeper seems to be shorthand for "I think you are a fool."

I've noticed that on the few occasions I have seen it lobbed at someone, it is usually used as a quick way to state the following:
"You don't agree with me, and I think your thoughts and ideas are antiquated and far from progressive. Get with the program, you dope."

As you can see, the word "freeper" is so much quicker to type than that little diatribe. Best to just roll yer eyes and move on to another post.

[HarveyBriggs]

195. Actually they are the freepers!

I believe there is a group in here dedicated to turning moderates, veterans and others toward Bush by making them feel unwelcome.

They should be ashamed of themselves, but they are not.

Harvey Briggs

[Ron Green]

196. There have been murders committed in wartime, outside of the mission.

Anytime an armed combatant kills unarmed people who don't pose an immediate threat to him or his unit, it's murder. And it happens in every war. It's usually not prosecuted except by the conscience, which is the harshest judge anyway.

I'm a disabled vet, USArmy 1966-1969.

[Piperay]

197. Neither side has a monopoly on

close minded 'thinkers'. Don't let it get to because a few think that way, easier said than done but I have had run-ins with people here too because I often take a more moderate stance than some here.

Anyway WELCOME to the DU! :hi:

[jonnyblitz]

198. this dumbass poster has been tombstoned. he is a FREEPER

stop falling for his BULLSHIT! Can't believe how gullible some of you are just because somebody says he is a VET. HE WAS SO OBVIOUS!

[Puglover]

199. This guy was such a phony...

he said he fought in WW2 which would put him at best 78-85....the syntax he used when he typed simply wasn't an older persons...

[Flagg]

200. good call

He was just your run of the mill disruptor from freerepublic and sadly enough he accomplished his mission perfectly.


He pushed It a tad too much by pretending to be a WWII vet. He should have sticked with Korea.