Christian DUers

[auburngrad82]

Does anyone know specific Bible quotes to back up my claim that Jesus would be considered a "liberal"?

I'm tired of the religious right always siding with radical conservatives. I'd like to be able to fight fire with fire by using the words and deeds of Jesus to show them they are wrong.

I became disillusioned with organized religion as a teenager and feel that organized religion has taken the wrong path and/or has become corrupted by politics to the point where the religious right no longer follows the teachings of Jesus.

Any help would be appreciated.

[onebigbadwulf]

1. Turn the other cheek

let he who has not sinned cast the first stone

the least you do to your brothers and sisters is what you do unto me

(all the beatitudes)

those are just off the top of my drunk head

[liberalmuse]

2. The Beattitudes...

Jesus also said things like, '...feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick and imprisoned, care for the widows..' 'It's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.' He was not only a liberal, some could consider him a socialist.

[DelawareValleyDem]

3. Blessed are

the meek, for the shall inherit the Earth.

[davhill]

4. Many

Luke 6:24
But woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort.
Luke 4:18
The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed,
Matthew 23:13
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
Matthew 23:15
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

Not to mention the Lord's prayer

[Crunchy Frog]

5. I'm not a Christian but

I think you can get plenty of ammo by just reading the gospels. There's loads of stuff there that contradict conservative doctrine and is much more in line with liberal beliefs.

Keep in mind that the concepts of liberal and conservative as they exist today, didn't really exist in biblical times.

Happy reading.

[noonwitch]

6. Read the Sermon on the Mountain, Matthew 5-7

It has some of the best teachings that conservatives regularly ignore.
It's where I get the quote to back not saying the Pledge of Allegiance, because Jesus teaches not to swear oaths.
It's where people are urged to pray in private, to give to charity in private and to turn the other cheek.

[fat elvis]

7. The Religous Right....

Are the modern day version of the Pharasees that persucuted Jesus and kept people in fear.

[RevCheesehead]

22. Absolutely, spot-on!

And welcome to DU, fat elvis! :hi:

[Quahog]

11. And keep reading!

Matthew is full of stuff that the neo-cons simply do NOT want to hear! All that stuff about selfless love, and humility, and GIVING, has got to rub these people the wrong way.

Shame Jesus couldn't have just ambled around singing the Psalms.... you know, all that stuff about God crushing my enimies and smashing the jaw of my foe and dashing his infant's head against a stone. That's the bible stuff that the BFEE LOVES!

[Cheswick2.0]

14. There are beautiful Psalms

And the violent angry ones are very human. Do you expect people to only speak of their best intentions and hopes to God? What would be the purpose of a God who you can't tell your ugliest thoughts to?

[JimmyJazz]

33. I was beginning to think I was the only one who

didn't say the pledge for that reason.

[Infomaniac]

8. Rev. Church's Books

In addition to scriptural text, Forrester Church has two excellent books, which help combat the Fundies. The first, God and Other Famous Liberals, is out of print; but you may be able to get it from your local library. The other, The American Creed: A Spiritual and Patriotic Primer, is also an excellent rebuttal to the Fundies claim that this is a "Christian Nation."

[timtom]

37. Here's a great place to start.

And it seems as though "God and Other Famous Liberals" is available.

http://www.bookfinder4u.com/f_0_1/F_F_Forrester_Church.html

[brisker]

9. We need a precise definition of "liberal" first

Definitions seem to vary even on this board from what little I've seen, and I'm not sure that Jesus' time in 1st century Palestine was all that "political". He's the King of kings and the Lord of lords, so he's basically a dictator (though a good one, the only good one), and one day will sweep away human government and replace it with his own. Note that Jesus had very little to say about the Romans government, and in fact commended one of its soldiers and commanded his followers to pay their taxes.

So I'm not sure much can be said without one's own bias skewing things.

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind" is not very political (though Caesar took it as a threat to his power). Please note that this is the first and greatest commandment. Please also note that if you're loving God, it will follow that you will love your neighbor (the second commandment). I think Jesus explicitly included the second just to make sure the point wasn't missed.

The problem comes with the implied "you" in the command " love your neighbor." (Remember fifth-grade English, and the imperative sentece?)

A "conservative" Christian will say that "you" refers to the individual person, and that loving neighbors is primarily an individual activity. A "liberal" Christian will say that "you" refers to everyone, and the loving neighbors is a collective activity.

I'm not sure how much ths helps, but it might help you clarify your thinking.

[shawn703]

10. I'm not sure Jesus would associate with either philosophy

I think he'd have plenty of admonishments for both liberals and conservatives.

[Selwynn]

13. Name a few.

I'd like to hear them.

[shawn703]

15. Here's a few

I'm only paraphrasing of course

Love your enemies
Turn the other cheek
Do not judge
Forgive to be forgiven
Seek first the Kingdom of God

[Cheswick2.0]

12. oh geez

I'm sorry, but I am so sick of all these posts about organized religion having lost it's way etc...
Here are something I have been a part of over the last five years because I am part of an "organized" religion.

I went to Haiti and helped build a medical clinic. I took slides and I gave presentations back here in Pa which have encourage other people to get involved in giving. I have been part of sending thousands of dollars to Haiti to feed school children in Cite Soleil. I have been part of bringing an Afghani woman and her children here to the states. They have been here for two years and we continue to help support them and they are a part of our lives on a weekly basis.
Next week we have visitors coming from Ghana and next summer at least one person from our church will be going to Ghana to visit because we have an ongoing relationship with the Presbyterian community there. We also send money and supplies that make their lives just a little bit easier.
We support Habitat for Humanity, the Heifer Project and several other organizations trying to help people get on their feet and bring income and hope to their community.

Get a bible and start reading if you want to know what it says. Start with the New Testament, you will find what you are looking for.

[Cheswick2.0]

16. Hello original poster.......... you have no response to anyone?

?

[auburngrad82]

19. What would you like me to say?

I'm trying to get some information on what other people feel about this subject.

My personal opinion from what I have read of the Bible (and it's been years since I've read it and I don't pick it up often enough these days) is that Jesus would cringe over being used as an icon by the religious right. Much of what I hear associated with the RR is not what I would associate with Jesus. For example, if you are supposed to "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" then why would a religious person be so against helping people with Medicare and Social Security, etc? The programs benefit them as well but it appears that most people are looking out for number one. Jesus could feed the masses yet we can't help our own senior citizens and children with healthcare?

Also, if you are supposed to "Love your neighbor" why would a preacher tell his congregation that Catholic priests "wear Batman capes" and Jews "wear those silly looking bowls on their heads". These comments were among the last that I heard before I quit attending church services about 25 years ago. I kid you not.

I am not down on religion. I am about as tolerant of other people as one can be. I was brought up Southern Baptist and my girlfriend was raised Catholic. My belief is that Jesus preached love and compassion, not hatred and intolerance. And while there are many examples of "organized religion" doing good things there are just as many examples of church groups protesting gays, muslims, etc. Remember the photos of the minister and his congregation holding up signs reading "Matthew Shepherd is burning in Hell"?

I'm sure that I'm not alone in this. I seem to remember Jimmy Carter leaving the Southern Baptists for reasons very similar. Their beliefs no longer matched his.

I've done a lot of reading about religion lately trying to figure out some of these issues. I recently read a book called "When Religion Becomes Evil" by Charles Kimball. He's a Baptist minister and professor of religion at Wake Forest University. He has many examples of various ways that religion has become corrupted (Christian, Islamic, and Buddhist beliefs) and what he feels needs to be done to correct the situation.

I think that one's religious beliefs (or disbeliefs) are individual and that one doesn't need to be associated with a group to be religious.

I'm rambling...

[Cheswick2.0]

23. no one doesn't have to be associated with a religion to be religious

and it is certainly convenient not to be when you can make vague statements about the evils of organized religion. But it certainly works well to be part of an "organized" church when looking for ways to help in the world. That is the purpose after all, to live life by Christ's example.

As tto the God hates fags group..... they are hardly the majority of relgious or christian people. The are one small group of kooks.
No I don't think you are either tolerant or informed.

Jimmy Carter left one wing of the Baptist church. You don't think he stopped going altogether do you?

There is nothing wrong with organized religion. Some groups are better than others and the religious right are not the majority. Maybe your mistake is making to broad a generalization.

[RedEarth]

17. Read this article and perhaps buy this book....very good info in both

Falwell and his 'Christian right' have it wrong
By Rev. Jan Linn et al.

Published Oct 19, 2002
www.startribune.com

Enough is enough. When Jerry Falwell declares on national television that Mohammed was a terrorist and Christians believe there will be no peace in Jerusalem until the second coming of Jesus ("An alliance with political and religious overtones," Oct. 8), the time for silence on such religious arrogance is over.

Put bluntly, the Christian right that Falwell represents is neither.

It is not Christian in attitude or actions because both represent what Jesus spoke and acted against. Those who lead the Christian right are the Pharisees of today's Christianity. They play the role of moral and thought police, condemning to hell anyone whose actions they consider wrong and whose views are different from their own. Their religiosity runs a mile wide but their spirituality is an inch deep.

The Christian right is not right because it is intellectually dishonest. Falwell speaks as if he knows the Bible when what he actually knows is that which he already believes and imposes on the Bible.

He doesn't interpret the Book of Revelation, which he claims is the basis for his views on the Middle East, the fate of the world, the second coming of Jesus, and just about anything else he says he believes.

http://www.mediareviewnet.com/falwell%20and%20Christian...

Jan Linn has also written a book(which is an excellent read) called...
"What's Wrong with the Christian Right". Amazon and other bookstores carry it.....I highly recommend it.

[Individualist]

18. Matthew 25

Verses 31-46 includes the following: "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

[auburngrad82]

20. Thanks for the information

It gives me a starting point. I apologize to anyone that may have mistook the post as an attack on religion in general. While we were raised Southern Baptist, my brothers and I were Army brats so most of the church services we attended were non-denominational, multi-racial and were as likely to be led by a Catholic priest as by a Baptist minister.

When my father retired from the Army I started attending a small Baptist church in Columbus, Georgia and was disturbed and angered by what the preacher was saying about other religions. I quit attending church and decided that I would develop my own beliefs. Most of what I value isn't religious per se. I believe in honesty, tolerance, a love of the environment, and compassion towards those in need. Those qualities don't seem to exist within the religious right.

[RevCheesehead]

21. Ya gotta look at the whole thing, not just individual verses.

1. Jesus is Jewish. The only scripture he knew was the OT.

2. The letters of Paul were the first documented accounts of the activity of the Christian community. The gospels came about 30-40 years later.

2-a. There is evidence that many of Paul's letters, incl. Corinthians, were compilations - not actual letters. Some later epistles, although sounding like Paul, were probably written by disciples of Paul.

3. Each Gospel is a separate telling of the story.

3a. Mark was the earliest (and shortest), and contains two alternate endings to the story. Look at the use of parentheses and other notes in the edition you use.

b. Luke/Acts go together. Luke is to the non-Jewish world. He proclaims a radically uprooted society, turn things upside-down, and let the Holy Spirit rebuild the individual and society. The rich pulled down, the lowly exalted.

c. Matthew is written to the community of Jewish Christians. In Matthew, you find interpretation of OT scripture. Sermon on the Mount is classic: "You have heard it said...but I say to you." Matthew sees Jesus as the fulfillment of OT prophecy.

d. John reflects Christian thought at a time of revolution and turmoil. Rome is clearly an enemy who's time of destruction has come. Faithful Christians are persecuted and executed for telling the truth.

*********************

Jesus IS a liberal. He changed society. But remember, his words were met with opposition, not only from the government, but also from the religious fundamentalists of his day (the scribes and pharisees). His message was so revolutionary, he was executed as a disruptor. The Church of Jesus, through the Holy Spirit, did all the rest.

**********************

Sorry. The Cheese gets carried away, but obviously, this is a topic which is very dear to me.

[On the Road]

24. Great Book "The Politics of Jesus" by Ed Yoder

who is a Menonnite. He systematically goes through the Gospel of Luke and evaluates each verse that deals with social, economic, or political conditions.

For starters, there is a very consistent theme of support for the poor and condemnation of the rich. Not "a few bad apples", but the rich as a class. "The rich he has sent empty away."

It helps a lot to understand the political situation. The Romans were occupying Palestine brutally and placing very heavy taxes on the Jews, especially the poor. The Pharisees and Saducees were criticized largely because they were the quislings who were enabling Rome to maintain the occupation in return for protection and a prosperous lifestyle. Not so different from Iraq or any colonial occupation.

There were frequent bloody uprisings against Rome. Jesus was unquestionably on the side of the revolutionaries. Even though he may not have approved of violence, he probably attracted revolutionary disciples such as Simon Zealotes and Judas Iscariot (probably from Sicarii, a type of violent revolutionary). I think of Jesus as playing a role something like Sistani does today in Iraq.

[PaDem]

25. Many liberal positions can be supported by the Bible

Jesus talks incessantly about the poor but does not mention homosexuality or abortion. The Bible is clear that we are to be good stewards of the earth (environmentally conscious). The right wing idea that God will just take care of the earth regardless of what we do to it is ridiculous. Jesus talked about loving our enemies, trading swords for plowshares. It's pretty clear that Jesus is not pro-war. The Bible talks about honesty (Bush has not been honest, in particular regarding Iraq). The Bible talks about taking care of the poor and elderly (as opposed to ripping them off). The Bible couldn't be more clear about pursuing wealth being a negative endeavor (foreign policy to dominate global economy, exploit people around the world, tax breaks for rich, middle class squeeze, overtime pay, living wage etc..)

Also, Something to point out right away when discussing Bush with Christians is the whole South Carolina Primary in 2000 w/McCain. Disgusting slander is not something Jesus would do. Really hammer on that whole thing, because McCain does not profess to be a Christian but he was the one who handled himself nobly while Bush rolled around in the mud.

[TNOE]

26. Maybe you could help out with this project?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x826631

[auburngrad82]

28. I'll do what I can

I don't attend church any more but I would be glad to print the interview and ask friends that do attend a church to give it to their pastors.

Right now I'm just trying to get people to register to vote and I'm trying to convince some independents that I know to vote for Kerry.

[TNOE]

29. Thank you

That would be a huge help. I'm doing all you mentioned above too. But I would appreciate any and all help.

[merh]

27. This chapter says it all (and also puts the fundies in a bad light) imho

Matthew 6

Giving to the Needy

1"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
2"So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Prayer

5"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
9"This, then, is how you should pray:
" 'Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10your kingdom come,
your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
11Give us today our daily bread.
12Forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.<1> ' 14For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Fasting

16"When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show men they are fasting. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 17But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, 18so that it will not be obvious to men that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Treasures in Heaven

19"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
22"The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light. 23But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!
24"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.

Do Not Worry

25"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? 26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life<2> ?
28"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

[Selwynn]

30. Plenty of Bible Quotes for you here:

How can a "christian" be a "conservative?"
http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/about/christlike-1.html

Great to be a Liberal
http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/about/liberals.html

Jesus was a Liberal if There Ever was One
http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/religiousmenu.htm

For me the single statement that encapsulates jesus's mission and its leftist implications is this:

Luke 4:18, THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOOD NEWS TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED

Jesus is the one who encouraged his followers to sell what they had, give to the poor and follow him. He said that it is harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven that it is for a camel to go through the eye of the needle (which some suggest was a tiny entrance into the city of Jerusalem that was too small for animals to get through, rather than a "needle" but the intent seems the same). He said you cannot sever two masters - you will either love the one and hate the other, or despise the one and love the other: you can't serve both god and money. He said called the peace makers blessed, and the meek and merciful, he said that we should turn the other cheek when harmed, and said "do not repay evil with evil, but overcome evil with good" as well as "you have heard it said an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, but I say to you, love your enemies, do good to those that hate you, bless those who curse you."

He devoted his life to living with and meeting the needs of the poor and destitute, he railed against the predominate power institution of Jewish life in that day, the temple priests and teachers of the law: he had harsh criticisms of that establishment. He said that he who wishes to be first will be last, and he who is last will be first. All of these sentiments are extremely difficult to reconcile with the politics of conservatism in America today. They are however, easy to see in the convictions of liberalism - not to be confused with the Democratic party, which is hardly liberal. :)

Sel

[auburngrad82]

31. thanks to everyone that replied

This is the kind of information and feedback that I was looking for.

[Maleficus]

32. I have some good passages, if they'll help:

Matthew 19:21-24
"Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth. 23Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Mark 12:41-43
"41Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. 42But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins, worth only a fraction of a penny.
43Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. 44They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything--all she had to live on."

Luke 6:20-26
"20Looking at his disciples, he said:
"Blessed are you who are poor,
for yours is the kingdom of God.
21Blessed are you who hunger now,
for you will be satisfied.
Blessed are you who weep now,
for you will laugh.
22Blessed are you when men hate you,
when they exclude you and insult you
and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man.
23"Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their fathers treated the prophets.
24"But woe to you who are rich,
for you have already received your comfort.
25Woe to you who are well fed now,
for you will go hungry.
Woe to you who laugh now,
for you will mourn and weep.
26Woe to you when all men speak well of you,
for that is how their fathers treated the false prophets."

Luke 14:12-14
"12Then Jesus said to his host, "When you give a luncheon or dinner, do not invite your friends, your brothers or relatives, or your rich neighbors; if you do, they may invite you back and so you will be repaid. 13But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, 14and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."

There's many more great Bible verses that prove Jesus was a liberal. You can search for them @ http://www.gospelcom.net/ibs/niv/ .

I hope this gives some help.

[JimmyJazz]

34. Here are just a few more:

Luke 6:30-31. Give to everyone who begs from you; and if anyone takes away your goods, do not ask for them again. Do to others as you would have them do to you.

Also, Jesus was asked what is the greatest commandment: He replied, Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul and all your mind. Second: LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF. He also defines neighbor as everyone.

If GB were really the Christian he purports to be, he would be making decisions based on the best interests of the people in this country and around the world - he would not be basing it on what's best for HALLIBURTON.

And, yes, by definition, I agree that Christ would have been considered a socialist.

If you want more information, see if you can find a biblical concordance (I never looked for one on line) you can search for verses by keywords or phrases

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

35. As others have said - the beatitudes and the sermon on the mount but....

read Acts of the Apostles as well - the early church was socialist

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

36. It would take some time, but they're there.

There's so many to choose from. The whole of Matthew 23, or the Sermon on the Mount, maybe?