"Far Graver Than Vietnam "

[Strelnikov_]

"Most senior US military officers now believe the war on Iraq has turned into a disaster on an unprecedented scale "

Guardian Unlimited
By: Sidney Blumenthal
Thursday September 16, 2004

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1305441,00.html

. . .

After the killing of four US contractors in Fallujah, the marines besieged the city for three weeks in April - the watershed event for the insurgency. "I think the president ordered the attack on Fallujah," said General Hoare. "I asked a three-star marine general who gave the order to go to Fallujah and he wouldn't tell me. I came to the conclusion that the order came directly from the White House." Then, just as suddenly, the order was rescinded, and Islamist radicals gained control, using the city as a base.

. . .

General Odom said: "This is far graver than Vietnam. There wasn't as much at stake strategically, though in both cases we mindlessly went ahead with the war that was not constructive for US aims. But now we're in a region far more volatile, and we're in much worse shape with our allies."

. . .

General Hoare believes from the information he has received that "a decision has been made" to attack Fallujah "after the first Tuesday in November. That's the cynical part of it - after the election. The signs are all there."

. . .

General Odom remarked that the tension between the Bush administration and the senior military officers over Iraqi was worse than any he has ever seen with any previous government, including Vietnam. "I've never seen it so bad between the office of the secretary of defence and the military. There's a significant majority believing this is a disaster. The two parties whose interests have been advanced have been the Iranians and al-Qaida. Bin Laden could argue with some cogency that our going into Iraq was the equivalent of the Germans in Stalingrad. They defeated themselves by pouring more in there. Tragic."

[Dark]

1. Link?

[mike_c]

2. the occupation of Iraq is a f*ck-up of unbelievable scale....

This will be like Afghanistan was for the Soviets unless we get out of Iraq NOW!

[Strelnikov_]

5. I Think We Have Already Achieved Afghanistan

and are on a glide path to Stalingrad.

[amber dog democrat]

9. or Dien Bien Phu 1954

or Karthoum in 1895.

Or the Little Bighorn 1876

or well you get it.....

hell of a situation. And what must really floor the kids over ther getting mortar attacks and RPGs is how we are having conniptions over the unhealed scars of a war we lost 30 years ago.

The election is going FUBAR in its own way. Have we taken leave of our senses ?

[amber dog democrat]

3. Here is another link for it.

http://www.salon.com/

This is very very bad news. The analogy to Stalingrad seems apt.
I just wonder how many more lives we are going to throw away before we can extracate ourselves from an awakening hornets nest.

This is what happens when idiots ( idealogues ) are allowed to set policy.
The PNAC Neocons honestly believed in their own fantasies.
Too bad they won't go there and stay to see what is really happening.

[bpilgrim]

7. DU'ers were talking bout this years ago

but of course we were all NUTS!

SUPPORT OUR TROOPS - OUTSOURCE THE WAR - TO IRAQIS

bring our troops home NOW! where they are NEEDED.

peace

[Eloriel]

20. Lives? You mean bullet-catchers, don't you?

That's how I heard an Infantry Lt. Col. refer to troops at an official social function when I was an Army officer's wife (a LOT of years ago). That wasn't my first clue that I wasn't cut out for that "job" but it was among the more startling.

[amber dog democrat]

23. During a Fleet Training Command stay in GITMO 1970s

we wre advised that my ship would been sent to intercept hydrophone effects ( torpedoes ) in order to protect a more important ship such as a carrier or a cruiser.
Only certain people would know this.

The instructors would not want to have the word spread to the people on Main Control, ( Engine and firerooms ) . We were all expendable.

[obiwan]

25. The pResident calls dead U.S. troops "O.F.U."...

... "One Fodder Unit."

[dumpster_baby]

4. Hey, Dan Rather, interview all these old boys

Kitty Kelley, THe Secretary, The Generals....

We got the Big Mo, baby....

[ILeft]

6. It's time to change horses in mid-stream. Bush is incompetent.

"Right now, the course we're on, we're achieving Bin Laden's ends."
-Retired general William Odom, former head of the National Security Agency.

[amber dog democrat]

8. We have turned Iraq into a terrorist recruiting situation.

This is worse than Vietnam.
I never saw anything like this before. It just turned to shit over night after the looting began. I just hope we can get most of our people out ALIVE.

Dunkirk won't be in it.

[Skinner]

10. Thanks for posting this.

Just awful.

[MadMichDem]

11. Umm..I feel kinda stupid but what happened at Stalingrad? eom

[wryter2000]

12. Welcome to DU

Can't help you with Stalingrad. But :hi:

[MadMichDem]

15. Thank you.

This site is where I now get 95% of my news. DU folks are the best! :*

Will Google Stalingrad - sounds like something I should know.

[lancdem]

13. That was where the German invasion of Russia during World War II

turned into a disaster.

[Strelnikov_]

16. German Army Continued To Pour Resources Into A Lost Cause

primarily due to Hitler's insistence and contrary to the advice of the Wehrmacht General Staff. As a result of the loss of manpower and material, the offensive capability of the German army on the Russian front was broken. Basically, Stalingrad was the turning point of WW II in Europe.

The analogy is that if we continue to pour military resources into Iraq, we could so weaken our military that we reach a tipping point in American military capability, thus making our overseas interests vulnerable.

[psychopomp]

18. Great summary of the significance of Stalingrad

Well put.

[DrWeird]

24. I'm not an expert on Stalingrad...

But I was under the impression that at Stalingrad the Germans were far better equipped and supplied, but suffered from low moral and were far from home. Whereas the Russians ridiculously outgunned and were basically stuck at sniping at the enemy from bombed out shells of building, but outnumbered the Germans, were used to the weather, and were fighting for a lot more. Is this valid? Because it seems like there are many parallels between Fallujah and Stalingrad.

[coalition_unwilling]

27. More to the point, German Army did not retreat when it had a chance

Due to German pride and vain-gloriousness

[NeonLX]

14. Glad to see our liberal media are all over this.

Worthless phukkers.

[psychopomp]

17. Generals HATE the PNAC'ers

...at least, that's what I gather from Retired former NSA Chief says:

General Odom remarked that the tension between the Bush administration and the senior military officers over Iraqi was worse than any he has ever seen with any previous government, including Vietnam. "I've never seen it so bad between the office of the secretary of defence and the military. There's a significant majority believing this is a disaster. The two parties whose interests have been advanced have been the Iranians and al-Qaida. Bin Laden could argue with some cogency that our going into Iraq was the equivalent of the Germans in Stalingrad. They defeated themselves by pouring more in there. Tragic."

[RedEarth]

19. Excellent article.....everyone should read it......

[lostnfound]

21. "For the sake of those ten, I will not destroy it."

Abraham drew nearer and said: "Will you sweep away the innocent with the guilty? Suppose there were fifty innocent people in the city; would you wipe out the place, rather than spare it for the sake of the fifty innocent people within it? Far be it from you to do such a thing, to make the innocent die with the guilty so that the innocent and the guilty would be treated alike! Should not the judge of all the world act with justice?" The LORD replied, "If I find fifty innocent people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake." Abraham spoke up again: "See how I am presuming to speak to my Lord, though I am but dust and ashes! What if there are five less than fifty innocent people? Will you destroy the whole city because of those five?" He answered, "I will not destroy it, if I find forty-five there." But Abraham persisted, saying "What if only forty are found there?" He replied, "I will forbear doing it for the sake of the forty." Then Abraham said, "Let not my Lord grow impatient if I go on. What if only thirty are found there?" He replied, "I will forbear doing it if I can find but thirty there." Still Abraham went on, "Since I have thus dared to speak to my Lord, what if there are no more than twenty?" The LORD answered, "I will not destroy it, for the sake of the twenty." But he still persisted: "Please, let not my Lord grow angry if I speak up this last time. What if there are at least ten there?" He replied, "For the sake of those ten, I will not destroy it."

Why oh why did these rightwingers learn only 'outrage over perversion' and not compassion from this Bible teaching.. I mourn the tragedies which are yet to come.

[Eloriel]

22. You cannot win a guerilla war, say military historians, unless

you resort to genocide, as the Europeans did when they invaded Turtle Island.

The war was lost before it began. There was NO popular uprising in Iraq wanting to overthrow Saddam (which is not to say that he was so beloved by all, or that he wasn't a brutal dictator), and we blew just about every chance we had to "win hearts and minds" in one comedy of errors after another. Of course, we never actually CARED about winning hearts and minds or, for that matter, establishing anything but a "managed democracy" (at best) over there, so it's not as if we were actually trying that hard.

It was ALWAYS going to be a clusterfuck. Always. Now it's a tar baby, our tar baby.

[Disturbed]

26. But....

the glorious Leader told us a hundred times that all of God's children want freedom. The ones in Iraq that are fighting are all terrorist that hate freedom. The glorious Leader shall smite the evil doers with the Almighty's power transfered to the valiant soldiers of our righteous Homeland. Freedom shall reign down and the wicked shall be slain and the black gold shall flow to our golden shores.