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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 01:36 PM
Original message
The Acceptable Slander Even here at DU
DEAD BEAT DADS

http://www.acfc.us/reports/pdfs/DTWCSRaids090602.pdf


Braver, who has conducted an eight-year study of parents after divorce, knocks down the stereotypes one by one. To begin with, most divorced fathers don't "walk out." At least two-thirds of the time, the mother is not only the one who files for divorce but the one who wants out of the marriage. And it's usually not, as many assume, because the father beats her, drinks or cheats; most commonly, mothers cite such reasons as "growing apart" or "not feeling loved or appreciated."

Nor is it true that, once divorced, fathers are likely to desert their children emotionally and financially. Most fathers who are steadily employed consistently pay child support (their record is especially impressive if one looks not only at mothers' reports, on which most statistics are based, but at fathers' own reports) and work to stay in their children's lives. So-called "runaway dads" are often "driven-away dads": they vanish because their ex-wives keep them away.

Finally, there's the mother of all divorce myths: that men benefit economically from divorce, while women and children are impoverished. The famous factoid from Lenore Weitzman's 1985 book The Divorce Revolution - women's standard of living drops 73 percent in the year after divorce, that of men goes up 42 percent - was exposed as erroneous two years ago. But her critics' alternative calculations still showed a drop for women and a rise for men.



http://www.sacbee.com/content/opinion/story/3804680p-4830118c.html



The Child Support Enforcement Act, introduced July 16 by U.S. Rep. Christopher Cox, R-Newport Beach, and Sen. Barbara Boxer, D-Calif., would require delinquent parents to pay taxes on unpaid child support as if it were income. This misguided legislation lies upon a foundation of illusions about deadbeat dads.
The first and biggest illusion is that, as Cox's press release noted, there is $78 billion owed in back child support nationwide. Arizona State University researcher Sanford Braver, in his book "Divorced Dads: Shattering the Myths," explains that "unemployment is the single most important factor relating to nonpayment." Braver, who between 1986 and 1990 conducted the largest federally funded study of divorced dads ever done, notes that his findings were "consistent with virtually all past studies on the topic" and that it "belies the image that divorced fathers don't pay because they refuse to though they are truly able to pay."

The $78 billion figure is further inflated because it includes child support owed by fathers who lost their jobs or became disabled but were unable to get downward modifications in their payment amount. According to Elaine Sorensen of the Urban Institute, even among fathers who experience income drops of 15 percent or more, fewer than one in 20 is able to get a reduction in child support payments. In the interim, arrearages mount, along with interest (10 percent or more in most states, including California) and penalties.

Also included in the $78 billion are fake arrearages caused by billing errors, including mistaken identity, mathematical errors, failure to record or transfer records of payments, billing men for children they did not father, failing to stop child support when a child reaches the age of emancipation, accepting custodial parents' false reports of nonpayment and failure to update child support orders with later court rulings affecting modifications.


http://www.fathers.ca/the_deadbeat_dad_canard.htm

Another illusion upon which the Child Support Enforcement Act rests is that states are not collecting money from many well-heeled child support evaders but this new tax penalty will spur them to pay up. Currently fathers who are behind on their child support are subjected to numerous penalties, including jail, the loss of driver's licenses and business licenses, wage garnishments, tax interceptions, and seizures of bank accounts and houses. It is hard to imagine that there are many evaders who have stoically endured all of these punishments but who will now decide to get out their checkbooks because of the Child Support Enforcement Act.

Instead of political grandstanding, Congress should intervene to improve the system both for those owed child support and those obligated to pay it. For one, the government should change the way it financially supports states' child support enforcement efforts. Currently state agencies are federally reimbursed for every child support dollar they collect, and thus are encouraged to grab and hold on to every dollar they can. The federal government should instead give block grants to states and establish yearly compliance evaluations which include stiff penalties for false collections and billing errors.

Also, the government must repeal the Bradley amendment, which mandates that child support arrearages cannot be modified or forgiven. The law, though perhaps well-intended, has ruined the lives of tens of thousands of men guilty of nothing more than of being laid off of their jobs or suffering disabling injuries. By prohibiting judges from resolving these injustices with debt modifications, these innocent men are permanently driven underground and out of their children's lives.

The third and most important reform needed is to enact measures to allow divorced and never married dads to remain a part of their children's lives. Most fathers have little chance of getting sole or even joint physical custody of their children, and little is done to ensure that fathers have access to their children. Left at the mercy of custodial parents, studies show that half or more of these fathers endure visitation interference or denial, and hundreds of thousands more are victims of "move-away moms" who permit or use geography to drive them out of their children's lives.


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cheezus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
1. what does your mother do with the child support i pay her?
"Weekday dad wanted a DVD player"
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Fathers need more say in how the money is spent indeed.
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
2. What I find appalling are the laws governing custody.
I have known far too many fathers who are MUCH, MUCH better and more viable parents than the mothers. Yet the mother almost always gets custody unless she's a criminal or is in drug-rehab (and I know of a case where a clean father still didn't get custody over an addicted mother). I think there needs to be some fairness and clarity imposed over custody laws before we get into going after who owes whom money for support.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Agreed True
:headbang:

I read a study in prepping a case for a friend. Women file 85% of all divorces. Of those said 85% they get the children 95% of the time.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #2
72. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #72
77. WTF are talking about?
Very nice with the Nazi comparison. Another Anti-Dad post thanks.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #77
79. Call it what you will.
I don't know a whole lot about statistics.

All I know is my own personal horror story and the nightmares of people I've known.

My best friend idolized her Dad, and was devastated when her Mom got custody, (even though she remembered as an adult that her Dad regularly beat her mother and once raped her on the living room floor in front of her and her sister)

The judge told her that at twelve if she still wanted to live with her Dad, she could. So the day she turned twelve she packed her bags and moved in with her Dad, the cocaine dealer.

He promptly sat her down at the table, told her she would try coke someday so why not now, and made her snort a line of coke.

She's struggled with cocaine addiction her whole life since. I don't know if you would call him a "deadbeat Dad" since he did a great job of supporting her financially, but he should definitely be beaten til he is dead.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. What does that have to be with me be a Nazi?
We can all tell lots of horror stories. Problem is they don't sovle the problem.

Perhaps you might want read the links, learn something about boring things like stats, before you call someone a nazi.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #81
92. Shit, why fool with stats when there is reality?
"There are lies, damned lies, and then there are statistics." Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain)
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
3. My father was a deadbeat dad.
No slander there... He had an airline pilot's salary and usually could not be bothered to send the $90 every two weeks for the four of us.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Why wasn't it payroll deducted?
That sounds like a bad guy. Sorry to hear that for you and your sibs. Guys like that started the myths and reactionary laws.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #6
99. your defintion of myth = whatever doesn't fit your fantasy
if the deadbeat doesn't work, no child support can be deducted via payroll. :think: perhaps deadbeats have figured that out :eyes:
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #99
103. The term Myth came from the government study
and the articles posted above.

His dad was a pilot :think: Thats why I asked :eyes:





Good thing no one on DU ever uses the term Deadbeat :eyes:
It is soooooo progressive.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #103
108. a study doesn't negate the reality
Edited on Wed Sep-15-04 07:01 PM by noiretblu
that many people have experienced, like me. in my 45 years, i have seen more irresponsible fathers than i care to remember. i have watched their wives and ex-wives struggle to raise their children, and i have watched their children go without because they refused to provide for them.
are the women perfect? of course not...but please do not tell me that men don't abandon their children, physically, emotionally, and financially...just because they are irresponsible jerks. or drug addicted jerks. or just plain jerks.

so...just for you: i will no longer refer to the lazy, irresponsible, pathetic loser men that i know personally who do not, have not, and will not support their children
as deadbeats :eyes: in honor of you and your study, i will simply call them assholes.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #108
111. Who's reality? Yours?
I never told you men don't flee, and neither do the articles. I have stated before we could all provide horror stories. Please don't tell me some women (that I know personally) don't take the money (from the overwhelming majority of fathers who pay on time) and fail to provide for there children. Thats not what this thread is about.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #111
123. what exactly is this thread about?
Edited on Wed Sep-15-04 07:51 PM by noiretblu
that there are more men who pay on time than deadbeats, according to the government...and "slandering" deadbeats as deadbeats is some kind of problem :shrug: the hell if i know WHAT this thread is about...except a juvenile attempt at retaliation for yesterday's flamefest :eyes:
and no...i don't personally know any women who take money meant for shild support (and i am certain some exist), as i mentioned, i know women who don't get any child support . and i will state further: there are more women who aren't receiving child support than there are:
1)women who use child support for purposes other than supporting the child
and
2)men who pay support on time.

i actually know some men who pay child support too, but i know MORE women who aren't receiving any at all.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #123
134. This thread is about my MOMMY ISSUES
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ikojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-16-04 04:52 AM
Response to Reply #6
184. My mom and dad divorced when I was six years old
They had six kids.

My dad REGULARLY beat (and I mean severely BEAT) my mom. He was a drunk and an alcoholic. He slept around on her and had a long term affair that led to the birth of his last child four months after my youngest brother was born.

My dad was so loving that he tripped my four year old brother ON PURPOSE. He then laughed about it.

Heck yes my mom kicked him out. It was after enduring 13 YEARS of verbal and PHYSICAL abuse. Anytime he would end up in jail he would use connections to get out. My dad wasn't rich but did quite well for himself.

My dad was ordered by the courts to pay $400 per month child support. He was very regular in this as long as he sent the checks through the circuit court. In 1975 he moved to Florida, out of range of the State of IL court system at the time. Remember this was the 70s and the laws were QUITE different. He would go MONTHS without sending my mom money. Then after a period of approx six months she would get a check for a couple of thousand dollars, enough so that she would not go to court and my dad knew this.

He KNEW she didn't make a lot of money. Heck he made sure of that after they were divorced. When she did get a job at a hospital, one that would have eventually paid for her to go to nursing school and get a good salary, he so harassed her that she was asked to leave. She finally ended up getting a job for an electrical supply firm that paid her minimum wage.

My dad was no saint and deserves no pity for not getting custody of his kids, not that he wanted it that's for sure.

What did my mom spend the child support check on? Well it wasn't luxuries that's for sure unless you call getting caught up on house payments and utilities a luxury. For by the time a check would appear my mom was often in arrears on her house payment and the electricity or heat had already been shut off. I recall sitting outside by the streetlight reading and/or listening to the world series. I also recall going to bed at night wearing my coat because the heat had been turned off and I was cold.





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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Unfortunately, there's some truth behind every stereotype
I'm very sorry that your father was an asshole. But with all due respect, I don't think your father's lacking performance should paint every divorced father's potential performance.
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Much more than just "some"
Edited on Wed Sep-15-04 02:27 PM by benburch
I know that YOU are probably not a deadbeat dad, and that being tarred with that brush upsets you, but you are really in the minority.

Before the laws existed that required child support be taken out of paychecks and paid directly to an officer of the court, child support compliance was terrible. I recall when I was getting divorced, my lawyer said it was well under 50%.

I have an old drinking buddy who is a state's atty. and who spends all day, every day, trying to track down deadbeat dads (and deadbeat moms) and make them pay up. People change their names, work for cash, move frequently, etc, all to avoid paying child support.

Often there is some excuse "She'll only spend it on herself." "She got the house!" "She doesn't give me en0ough visitation." "She expects me to pay when I have the kids for vacation." But they all amount to shirking one's responsibility to once children in a most alarming way.

No, all of the laws that force divorced parents to provide the support they should provide without coercion are totally justified.

Sorry if this hurts your feelings, but I've been on the receiving end of it, and you will not get any sympathy from me.
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. It doesn't hurt my feelings at all.
But you're once again painting everyone in broad strokes. I'm very sorry for your experience, but one injustice doesn't absolve another. Men should have equal opportunity at custody and there should be a higher threshold for denying visitation for any reason, geography included. It's bullshit that we pay more attention to one injustice but not the other.
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #13
67. It's not bullshit when the problem itself is lopsided
And the one thing I see missing from this discussion so far is "what's best for the kids"?

These father's rights groups appall and disgust me. They're using the children as pawns, just as the individual "dads" (and yes, sometimes moms) do during the divorce proceedings.

Joint custody is BAD for the kids. They're uprooted all the time and don't even know where they belong.

I can tell -- this is a thread I'm gonna have to hide.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #67
76. You are correct about it being lopsided.
The facts are quite clear, women are given custody nearly all the time. How can men be accused of using children as pawns. That is a very anti-dad blanket statement.

If joint custody is bad should I not let my boys go to moms house?
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #76
158. Did we watch Dr. Phil today?
The facts are ( and I know from researching this during my own custody case) that when fathers fight for custody, they win 75-80% of the time. As I said in my post below, men only give a rat's ass about the adversarial method of custody litigation when it hurts MEN. I have seen men AND women get hurt and I say, as I said below, fight for ALL PARENTS, not just the ones with testicles.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #158
160. I would love for you to bring the facts to the table
Never watch Dr. Phil

Please don't speak for me about what I give a rats ass about? Would fixing the system not make it better for everyone?
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #160
175. Fixing it the way fathers rights groups want it would hurt
more children than it would help. Gender neutral solutions and strategies are the best.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-16-04 04:42 AM
Response to Reply #175
183. Why not bring the facts you claim to have?
Gender neutral is what the mens groups are after. Tell me how that would hurt more than it would help?


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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #13
78. My Dad is a very angry, and sick man.
Maybe boy children should be with their Dad after a certain age, but I absolutely disagree that girl children should grow up without a mother.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #78
84. Now that is more like it.
An Idea for discussion.

DU ladies?

I think they need both if possible.

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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. I'd like feedback from men on this, too.
I worked with a 24 year old who was helping support his nephew, whom neither parent seemed that interested in although the mother had physical custody.

He was adamant that in the case of divorce, boys need to be with a male parent (that is IF they have the advantage of being wanted by the father, or 'baby-daddy' many don't).
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #85
89. What makes parents flee?
Dislike of the other Parent?

Biological flaws?

Percieved Unfairness in family court?
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #13
93. Here's a little piece of advice.
Round you up some men and get together on agreeing to eliminate the problem. From the active end. Instead of whining one moment that y'all don't get the kids and the next moment that you have to pay for the damn things.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #93
96. So if a wife files for divorce,
like they 85% of the time in this country, how does your sage advice help them?

Children are not DAMNED THINGS either.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #96
100. sorry, when one is whining about having to "shell out" for
support every month, it calls into question one's attitude toward one's child.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #100
106. Tell it to the person who said it.
Which wasn't me BTW
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #106
107. I hear that attitude SO MUCH.
There seems to be tremendous resentment among many, many men, about having their paycheck quartered to pay for their spawn. The fruit of their loins. The pay after the play.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #107
113. Again you are replying about something I never said.
Lets talk about the reasons for the resentment.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #113
141. Just a casual observation.
Sorry it doesn't apply to you...you've already admitted you are an exception, why belabor the point?
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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #93
115. Personally I have seen as many bad mommy’s as daddy’s.
Personally I have seen as many bad mommy’s as daddy’s.

My father was very good to me in spite of my parents divorce. In fact it was my mother who hit me growing up, not my father. He was always there for me as far as I can remember. His second wife was a horrible mother and used my younger half brother against my father after their divorce.

Fast forward 20 years and my younger step brother marries a woman that ends up abandoning my brother and their little boy only to show up a year later wanting him back. At first she got him but then fucked up her custody with some sort of violation, I think it might have been drug related. Now my brother has the boy and the boy is doing very well. My brother is now married to a great lady with a little girl and they are both great parents.

Let’s just take gender out of the debate and focus on good parenting. An abusive neglectful parent is just that. A bad parent, not a representative of an entire gender.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #115
117. Thank you
Gender is riding high for some in this thread. It is also a big determining factor in family court in the family courts. Thats why I brought this up.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. Again Ben ,have you read the links.
Are there DeadBeats? Yep Both Sexs? Yep?

Anyone behind by ONE cent falls into the category of dead beat. Is that fair? I have seen two jobs go bye bye permanently in 3 years.

Are the new laws helping? No doubt they are helping some, but the system is still broken.

The excuses you list may have merit to some, no? If a man has his son for twelve weeks in the summer, why on earth does the mother still need support? That makes it seem like an entitlement check! Many judges in IL are putting it on hold in those situations, as they should.

Laws forcing THOUSANDS of men who didn't father the children involved are unjust and horrific. Why not charge the fraudulent mothers with fraud?

BTW DISCLOSURE

I have custody of my children. I refused support. I feel it would harm their mother financially. We split medical bills. I carry Med ins. because I get it free. We split daycare when it is needed. I would say have the kids 70 percent of the time. She funds her household, I fund mine. I think it would be wrong to hit her up for money, Like the courts wanted.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #14
73. BTW what percentage point in the statistic do you represent?
I bet it's pretty damn low.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #73
90. Percentage of what Stat?
Father with custody? Very Rare

Refusing Support? Lots do, both sexes. Read the Government study linked above.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #14
74. dupe orama
Edited on Wed Sep-15-04 05:54 PM by jdjkkse
I'm on a computer with roadrunner, I can't imagine trying to post on here with dial up, there is really a monkey wrench in here somewhere.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #14
75. dupensteins
Edited on Wed Sep-15-04 05:53 PM by jdjkkse
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Pithlet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #9
23. The non-custodial parent
Edited on Wed Sep-15-04 03:13 PM by Pithlet
should pay child support to the custodial parent, regardless of their sex. Period. That's pretty much how it is now, too. I've known several non-custodial women who pay support to the father. And that is how it should be. I agree with everything you just said. And I'm tired of the whole greedy woman stereotyping going on. It's a sore spot with me because it is often just so rooted in sexism and misogyny.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Here we go with S and M words again lol
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Pithlet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. I'm sorry
Were they too big?
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. Very adult
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Pithlet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Hey
You gave me that one. I couldn't resist.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #33
39. This from someone who pleads
<And, even though I'm just a stupid woman, I can read just fine. I do not need to read it again, thank you.>

Where I never said you were stupid. Didn't take you long to say <Were they too big?>

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Pithlet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Really.
You need to replace the batteries in your sarcasm detector.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. Smilies might help
:7
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Pithlet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. I just assume
that everyone knows I'm sarcastic.

Look, really, I'm not attacking you. And there is a valid discussion in there somewhere. But, you've been coming off as a bit anti-woman with your stereotyping, and that's probably just a function of your passion on the subject, and I just need to calm down. I do disagree on your viewpoint when it comes to child support.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. Where on earth have I been anti WOMAN?????
Where have I stereotyped?

DeadBeat Dads have been on the front page for years. Even here.
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Pithlet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #46
51. I didn't say you were anti-woman
But, I'm not going to go and pull every post of yours where you stereotpyed the greedy mom going after child support for selfish reasons. I think your characterization of DU as slander against dads is a bit off base.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. You wont because you cant.
I have never stereotyped women concerning child support. Prove me wrong or don't accuse, please.



I think all the replys prove I am right. You have never seen any threads against non custodidal dads?
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Pithlet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. I won't
Because I never did, and have no inclination.

Show me all of the dad bashing posts. Honestly, I haven't recalled a disproportionate amount. I can't even recall a single one, although that doesn't mean one doesn't exist. But, you have no proof that DU slanders fathers of any kind.

In the other thread that shall remain nameless you insisted that a woman claiming child support for her adoptive child was perpetrating a fraud. That is just one example.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #55
62. The child was HERS. not HIS
She convinced HIM to adopt the child FULLY planning to leave him. One month down the road she leaves with 16 years of a paycheck. That is wrong and that is fraud. The REAL father of the child is down for life at Menard Prison.
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Kaysera Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #62
65. Unfortunately, the child is now legally his ... as well.
I imagine that he would have to take her to court and prove fraud to reverse this.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #65
71. Finally someone gets it. Except
No court in this country will reverse it. The court's point of view is that this would be in effect, making the children fatherless.

There are thousands of men paying for children that are not their's.

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Mandate My Ass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #71
112. Hmmmm

There are thousands of men paying for children that are not their's.


There are many more thousands that aren't paying for children that are theirs. But that would be slander to say so. :eyes:

I'm so incredibly sorry that you see men as such victims in these cases when in fact it is the children that are being victimized.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #112
116. Where have I called men victims?
Please provide facts on how many men are not paying.

It is slanderous to refer to someone who is 1 week behind as a deadbeat. Are there men who have never paid a nickel, yes there are. They are scum, and very rare.
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Pithlet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #62
66. That's a flattering portrayal
He didn't adopt the child because he loved him/her? That isn't possible?

What you aren't getting in that scenario is he is the adoptive father of that child. If someone doesn't take adoption seriously enough and does it for reasons other than the child, then that is HIS/HER fault. What you're missing here is child support is for the child. Regardless of who their parents are, what their motives are, what sex they are, etc. Women cheat on their husbands all the time. Men cheat on their wives all the time. Relationships bust almost half the time. IT IS IRRELEVANT. Children are entitled to the support of both their parents, custodial and non-custodial. It costs a lot to raise a child, and most people, man or woman, cannot do it on one income alone. Your insistence that child support is a fraud in any case is incorrect. THAT is what I've been trying to tell you, amongst all your accusations hurled at me that I'm "attacking" you.

Bottom line: anyone that characterizes child support as greed on either party is mischaractierizing the situation at worst, and missing the point at best, and ignoring who the child support is REALLY for. The fact that all of your examples of "selfish fraudsters" are women, is, to me, not a coincidence, particularly when you start a thread in GD about how DU slanders fathers.

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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #66
80. You are really not seeing the forest through the trees
I already said he adopted her child because fell in love with the child.

It's his fault for adopting the child and I guess it is his fault she left. Are you saying she took the process seriously?


This has NOTHING to do with infidelity. How many times do I have to state that.

I have never said support is greed, NOT once. Why would I post about men fraudsters in this thread?

You say you are not anti-man yet we cant even have a discussion here.
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Pithlet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #80
86. You are the one who insists it isn't his kid.
You are also the one who brought up that she cheated. I can only base my responses to you based on what you actually said. You are even the one who first used the term fraud. You are the one who is discussing child support from the frame of reference of the father.

We can't have a discussion here, but it has nothing to do with whether or not I'm anti-man (a common enough accusation against feminists, sadly). I don't agree with men who want to bury their head in the sand when it comes to women's issues, so I'm a man-hater. If I had a dime and all that...

Indeed, why would you bring up men fraudsters? This is all about how men are screwed over all the time, isn't it? That would kind of negate your whole point about anti-man slander. I mean, if I were trying to make the case that all men are assholes, I certainly wouldn't bring up women who were. That wouldn't make me a very good man-hater.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #86
94. You are the one who cannot admit it was fraud.
She gave birth to the child, with another man. Before she ever met the man paying for the child. She pushed for him to adopt the child knowing full well she was leaving. That is fraud, period. If she took the adoption process seriously, she would have waited and have her new lover adopt the child. Spin all you want, but you do a disservice to feminists and women in general trying to defend her actions.

Where am I burying my head in regards to womens issues?
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Pithlet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #94
97. Look
If he adopted the child, then the child is his. I'm sorry, but that is the way it is. I never defended her. You're the one insisting that I am. The child had nothing to do with anything the mother did or did not do. It is wrong that she did that. But, the child should not have to pay. He is his/her adoptive father. It's the same as if he fathered her genetically. The state does not allow someone to un-adopt because their spouse or partner was unfaithful, and with good reason that has nothing to do with bias against fathers, despite all you claim.

I also never accused you of burying your head in the sand. I was referring to people in general who accuse me and other feminists of man-hating.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #97
102. So the state should not reverse this?
Again this has nothing to do with unfaithful spouses. It has to do with fraud on her part.


Forget the last example (Steve) for the moment.

If a father were to find out a child were not his, do you think he should pay for it? Leave marriage, cheating, and what not, aside from the argument. It has no bearing.

A man finds out a child he has been led to believe is his, is in fact not his, should he pay? Or should the court order the mother to reveal the true father.
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Pithlet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #102
104. No
A state should not reverse an adoption.

It is not possible for him to find out it isn't his child, because he adopted it. This isn't a case of a woman telling a man he's the father when he's not, and she knows that he's not. Clearly, that is fraud. But, that's not what we're talking about here. If you were citing a case like that, then I'd agree with you. The man should not have to pay child support. But he adopted the child. The adoption papers do not say "This is your child, unless your spouse lied to you about the relationship". Because the two issues are separate.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #104
109. Are you agreeing with me?
I asked to put aside (Steve) for the moment.

Steve should not HAVE to pay. The adoption was fraud on the mothers part. Cut and dried, she was looking for a check. We may have to agree to disagree on that. I no what the law says.


Are we confusing two issues?

You say a man shouldn't have to pay for a child that isn't his, but thousands do. Are we in agreement about that? (NOT STEVE DAMMIT)



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Pithlet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #109
114. When did I ever say otherwise?
I have NEVER maintained that men should pay for children that aren't theirs.

Adoption is not parenting lite. An adopted child isn't a pretend child. My own children aren't more my own than someone who adopted theirs. An adopted child can no more become un-adopted anymore than genes can reverse themselves. The adoption was NOT fraud. You are very clearly in the wrong, there. Not that it matters, but you have no way of knowing at the time that she may not have had intentions of making the relationship work. At any rate, it is irrelevant, because their relationship ending and his adoption of the child are two separate issues. Just because you say otherwise does not make it so. It is the legally and ethically the same as if a couple gives birth to a child that is genetically theirs, but the mother leaves the man one month later for someone else. In both instances, the non-custodial parent is obligated to pay child support. Just because the child was adopted shortly before the split, and not biologically both parents, makes no difference.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #114
119. It was fraud
How do I know she had no intention of making it work? She signed a lease for a new place PRIOR to the adoption. She cosigned a loan for the new lover 35 days before the adoption was finalized. Fraud How is that not wrong?

I never argued that adoption is parenting lite. Or that they are somehow pretend.
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Pithlet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #119
124. But
Edited on Wed Sep-15-04 07:51 PM by Pithlet
You're arguing for the adoption to be overturned. You also stated that the child wasn't really his. It really did make it sound like you think adoption is just some kind of formality.

And, to be clear, I'm not saying that what this woman did isn't wrong. It's almost always wrong to cheat on your spouse. But, it is never the childrens' fault and their rights do not change based on that. And yes, adopted children are their children.

Yes, it sounds to me like the woman isn't exactly a class act. I don't know if I would call what she did specifically fraud, because I don't know all the details, and cheating on a spouse doesn't always automatically equal fraud. But, it looks like she's in the wrong. I'm not arguing that. But, you cannot use her as an example of all mothers in all cases, or even as an example of how men are at an unfair advantage and that other people, including DU, slander them. It's one unfortunate story of a woman cuckolding a man, who happened to adopt a child who gets thrown in the middle.

I also wouldn't argue that men are never at a disadvantage when it comes to custody issues. I think that a lot of that is based on outdated notions of men and women and their roles as parents. Outdated notions that affect both men and women negatively. It does need to be addressed. But neither side does their cause any good by pointing at the opposite sex and whining about how they're the victims. We need to fix the system so it is equitable for everyone. And we all need to acknowledge that child support is a child's issue, not a parent's issue. It isn't about getting one over on anyone, or victimizing anyone. It is about children being taken care of by their parents, whether they are together or not.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #124
135. Finally!
:grouphug:

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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #86
95. It always STUNS me, when there has been infidelity on the
part of the woman that produces a child,and this child turns out to be not BIOLOGICAL child of the man whom he/she called father for years, that the non-father can turn those feelings off like a light switch and instantly claim that the child is "not mine" and disown the child utterly and completely, without once thinking what is good for the child, whom he previous to finding out he was not the sperm donor "loved".
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #95
120. Not really the issue at hand, the issue is should be legally
obligated to pay.

What about the father out there who doesn't know he has a child? Would/Should he have rights in your world?

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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #120
142. Jesus Christ , it really IS all about the benjamins, isn't it?
Edited on Wed Sep-15-04 08:28 PM by jdjkkse
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #142
146. If you say so
What about the father in question? Does he have rights to see the child he doens't even know is his?
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #146
153. Are you gonna tell him about it?
Perhaps you need a hobby.
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #46
162. Excuse me but you brought up SLANDER
in the initial post, implying that men are being slandered. I don't know about that. But if you're going to throw out an accusation like that in your thread title, you can't backtrack now and call this a happy cheery gender neutral thread. Ain't gonna wash, Big Boy.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #162
163. Read the vitriol here toward men
Edited on Wed Sep-15-04 09:01 PM by LincolnMcGrath
Then get back to me. big boy. So pointing out a bias is some how anti-woman. sheesh
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #163
174. You are providing biased info to begin with, Hon
Father's rights groups are now the best ones to go to for solid social research. Adn i have just seen people post stories about individual men, not all men in general.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-16-04 04:40 AM
Response to Reply #174
182. Sure, The government allowed them to lie?
That makes no sense, hon. Don't attack to mens groups when the census back what they claim. Rather then discus, just attack, very progressive.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #26
70. BWAA HA HA HA!
that was refreshing.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #24
83. lol? LOL???
Edited on Wed Sep-15-04 06:10 PM by jdjkkse
Funny ha, ha...

It's not a joke and every social condition rooted in misogyny and sexism is one that children ultimately pay for.

I once read that aid groups in foreign countries have to carefully navigate the social constructs of the cultures they serve to get aid money to women so that it actually benefits the children they are trying to help, because if the money goes to the men it gets spent on non-necessities.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #83
87. Were you here last night?
There was a flamefest last night. About that very subject.
As to your second thought,
Something like that in this country could be beneficial too, I believe.
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Rainbowreflect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
8. I work in the field & there are plenty of dead beat parents.
Both mothers & fathers. So many learn the system, they work for cash or independent contractor so their wages cannot be garnished. They move from state to state to avoid paying. They will make a few payments to get the law off the backs then stop paying again.

Their is a lot of truth to the unfairness of custody, but the non-custodial parents who do not put child support as their priority really piss me off.

I have talked to plenty of non-custody parents with big new homes, multiple vehicles, etc. that just don't want to pay. I also deal with plenty of custodial parents who just want the other parent punished. I'm sick of so many parent who make their kids such low priorities in their lives.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Great reply
,Both mothers & fathers. So many learn the system, they work for cash or independent contractor so their wages cannot be garnished. They move from state to state to avoid paying. They will make a few payments to get the law off the backs then stop paying again.>

Perhaps some changes in the law might address that.

<Their is a lot of truth to the unfairness of custody, but the non-custodial parents who do not put child support as their priority really piss me off.>

Custodial Parents who use it illegally to block visitation piss me off. As well as CPs who enroll the children in every extra-curricular activity they can find, without discussion with the nonCP. Often conflicting with visitation times.

<I have talked to plenty of non-custody parents with big new homes, multiple vehicles, etc. that just don't want to pay. I also deal with plenty of custodial parents who just want the other parent punished. I'm sick of so many parent who make their kids such low priorities in their lives.>

About the CP, I know plenty who view it as an entitlement/punishment. Again if nonCPs had more say in how support was spent, I think there would be less arrears. Perhaps if they could right off support. Or maybe they could put money away for college. Why not let nonCPs get a credit for purchases for the children?

Just some ideas to kick around.
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mr_du04 Donating Member (170 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
11. what really bugs me is...
when dads are required to shell out every month but, are denied contact with the child. Of course this doesn't apply to the few who would be a danger to the child.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Agreed it is illegal,
yet rarely inforced.
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mr_du04 Donating Member (170 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. It is illegal?
That I did not know, though it has never happened to me I know a few folks who it has granted that was some time ago so it may have changed since then.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. It is in IL
So is talking bad about the other parent in front of the child! lol

Thank goodness that never happens.
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mr_du04 Donating Member (170 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. that is another thing that bugs me
one parent talking bad about the other in front of the child my folks did and still do that today.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. My folks did too
They got the big D when I was in my late twentys.

They know better now. I cut that shit right out.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #11
98. Yeah, if you don't get to see it, just let it starve...
And you wonder why folks aren't buying this line about concerned fathers being slandered...
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Pithlet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
12. Replying to other DUers posts
without knowing the details, and making snap judgments about them is better?

There is no anti-man, anti-father bias on DU. You're looking through your own prejudicial eyes and seeing things that aren't there.

Child support is not evil women trying to suck away the wallets of men out of anger. It is the child who is entitled to the child support. Men aren't magically better at determining how the money is spent, and women aren't total ignorant greedy harpies.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Mandate My Ass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. IIRC for the first 8 years of the kids life
the guy offered bupkiss - that would be the big $0.00 - to the kid's upkeep. He slimed out of his responsibilities for a long time and it finally caught up with him.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #20
29. IIRC
<For the first eight years of her life, I was too proud to ask for money from him>


<Four years ago I got up the courage to ask him, and we agreed to an informal set up. Didn't involve the courts>


Not my words there!

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Mandate My Ass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. If he needed to be asked
he's scum.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #36
47. Never said he wasn't
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. Thanks for proving my point
She said anger caused her to go after him. I was questioning that.

<Until a few things happened recently, that I'd rather not publicly state, that completely and permanently pissed me off. So, the gloves came off and the subpeonas flew!>

Stop putting words in my mouth and thread hopping.
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Pithlet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. You asked me
for the link.

You accused someone of selfish motives for having the gall to go after child support, based on little I might add, and then started another thread in another forum accusing DU of slander against men. Sorry, it just rubbed me the wrong way.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. This tread has nothing to do with the other thread.
I did not accuse anyone, I asked why? I asked what makes one a deadbeat? I might add you are doing little to change the perception of the term Deadbeat. Thats what this thread is about, discussion. Not you thread hopping over here to attack me. That used to frowned on.

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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. Sorry dude...
you know I luv ya like a brother but I don't buy that the purpose of this thread was simply "discussion". You have an axe to grind on this subject and you're grinding it. And that's fine. I do the same thing sometimes.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. Whatever VelmaD
Did you read the part about me having custody, or the part where I REFUSED support?

This is indeed a dicussion about the Deadbeat Myth, What makes one a Deadbeat,( being 1 cent behind qualifies in most states )and how the broken system can be changed for the better.
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #41
49. Just because you aren't a "deadbeat dad"....
which is a phrase I hate btw, and just because you personally refused child support, doesn't mean you don't have an axe to grind on this issue. You sound like you are a really good dad. :) I think maybe you hate getting lumped in sometimes with a lot of other men who aren't very good dads.

Anyway, what you aren't seeing is that your reactions on this topic go past being passionate sometimes and veer into sounding anti-woman. Now I know you and I know you aren't anti-woman and don't mean to sound that way. But you might want to consider that without knowing you and without any tone or body language cues to help them understand where you're coming from...some people interpret what you say more harshly than you likely intend. And you give them ammo to do so sometimes.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #49
54. hogwash!
Prove I have ever said any thing anti woman or show me the ammo as you put it.

Am I not allowed to question women at all? That sounds anti-man.



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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #54
59. knee-jerk reaction much?
*sigh*

And did you read my post? I said flat out that you I didn't think you are anti-woman...just that you might want to consider how other people who don't know you will interpret things you say.

Reply to me or don't. I'm headed to go bake brownies with GOPisEvil. :)
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #59
64. Special Brownies?
Plenty of knee jerking going on yesterday.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #59
101. my guess is: he's either a very young, inexperienced man
with "mommy issues" or an older guy, embittered by a divorce...with "mommy issues."
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #101
122. NIce
Personal attacks go along way in getting your point across. Very Progressive.

BTW I'm neither very young nor embittered by divorce. My ex and I great friends.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #122
126. right...you were one of the ones arguing
that sexist jokes really aren't a problem, right? yeah...you have TONS of credibility on this issue :eyes:
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #126
129. Never said that either!
I condemned the comment MULTIPLE times. Again with baseless attacks? Use the search feature. I condemn the comment, go look.
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Pithlet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. I'm not attacking you
And the rules do not state that I can only participate in one thread on one subject.

If you hadn't have made that accusation in the other thread, I probably wouldn't even have posted in this one. You've made several posts in several threads on this issue, and it is very clear that you are biased. We all have them. But, when I see a bias and prejudice, and I'm so inclined, I will respond.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #38
45. WHERE WHERE WHERE
<If you hadn't have made that accusation in the other thread, I probably wouldn't even have posted in this one. You've made several posts in several threads on this issue, and it is very clear that you are biased. We all have them. But, when I see a bias and prejudice, and I'm so inclined, I will respond.>

Again, I accused no one of anything.

Is several TWO?

What is my BIAS, tell me?

What is my prejudice?

You came over here jumping on me about another thread. It is called thread hopping and I believe it is against the rules. see your post below!

Pithlet (1000+ posts) Wed Sep-15-04 02:36 PM
Response to Original message

12. Replying to other DUers posts
without knowing the details, and making snap judgments about them is better?

There is no anti-man, anti-father bias on DU. You're looking through your own prejudicial eyes and seeing things that aren't there.

Child support is not evil women trying to suck away the wallets of men out of anger. It is the child who is entitled to the child support. Men aren't magically better at determining how the money is spent, and women aren't total ignorant greedy harpies.




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Pithlet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #45
52. I was a mod for several terms
I know what the rules are.

Your bias is evident. I'm sorry, but it is. Like I said, we all have them.
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Pithlet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #30
147. I have no idea
Why my post was deleted. I was asked to provide a link. I don't feel like going down to ATA to challenge it, but I just want that known.
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chiburb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. Oh, stop it...
It's much easier to post the stereotypes than admit to a bias.

And you're right: women ARE NOT totally ignorant... but they ARE harpies!!!

:-)
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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
28. Well, it's not fair to blame women or imply that women are always at fault
Edited on Wed Sep-15-04 03:41 PM by UdoKier
...and there are more than a few women who file for divorce because they or their children are being beaten/molested/father is substance abuser, etc.

BUT, from my experience looking at my own parents' divorce and the dozens of friends' families who were also divorced, I can say that my neighborhood was consistent with your stats.

My mom divorced my dad because "he drank too much" (Of course he was never drunk, and she was constantly drinking, too.) And she was unsatisfied with the middle-class lifestyle he provided her (She grew up with only the best - best boarding schools, Baylor U., trust funds) So, after forging my dad's signature to trade in HIS car while he was out of town to buy herself a Mercedes coupe, she finally filed for divorce when I was 18 and my brother 15. She asked for and got the house, custody of my brother, and $400/mo. child support. My dad, didn't want to fight so he let her havve her way. He got all the debts she incurrred from her retail business, and he got to keep his government pension.

She probably didn't spent $400 in six months on caring for my brother - we hardly ever saw her. Within weeks, she brought home this man who she had married in Las Vegas without even asking us if we'd like to attend. Turned out he was her high schools sweetheart that her mother wouldn't let her see anymore. They had finally gotten back together SIX MONTHS BEFORE THE DIVORCE. Andd since he came in like he ran the place, I moved out and never came back.

My dad was always a good provider, honest and caring. He was not perfect, but at least he didn't go on spending sprees with their joint checking account writing bad checks like crazy!

I've tried to learn to accept my spoiled, selfish mom for what she is, but it is difficcult knowing that her father gave her the best of everything, but even when she married into money, she didn't even help with my college tuition. I'm still paying the loans 12 years after graduation. I still resent it. It took me quite a while before I could trust a woman, but I finally learned to, and am very happy with my wife, who is honest and forthright.

I know not all women are like this, and there are a lot of spoiled brat men filing for divorce for equally frivolous reasons. It seems that what's best for the kids is always LAST in these peoples' minds.

If we were not happy in our marrriage, I would try to save it, but if it ever became unsalvageable, I would simply find a discreet companion on the side and stay married and be as loving to my wife as I can be until the kids are college aged. I will not rip their home apart when they need it most.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Nice post
Be prepared to be attacked. lol
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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #31
44. What happened to me is what happened to me.
I didn't make it up. Not all my friends' parents went that way. My best friends' dad had an affair and got his secretary pregnant, ruining his marriage to a great lady because he was too weak to turn down a conniving golddigger.

Every divorce, and every marriage, is unique.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. Every divorce, and every marriage, is unique.
That is so true.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #44
149. Oh my effing god.
"he was too weak to turn down a conniving golddigger."


Maybe he was just an unfaithful asshole. Remember, he was the MARRIED one. But of course, SHE is the homewrecker.
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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #149
161. I didn't want to go into detail, but...
She was a golddigger. He was an idiot.

He may very well have philandered at other times, but I know this woman personally, and she's a horrible person. She targeted this guy, knowing how wealthy he is, got pregnant and made a big announcement about it to everyone.

Not only did his wife dump him, he bought a huge house for the woman, raised their daughter with the best of everything and bought the woman a beauty salon. She got everything she wanted, since she came from nothing. She kept trying to cling to him and make a relationship with him even though he couldn't stand her.

I DID blame him for being weak, but she DID also target him. They are both homewreckers. She, a conniving golddigger, he, stupid pig. Are you saying it's worse for a marrried man to sleep with another woman than it is for a woman to sleep with a man she knows is married? Puh-leeze. Or maybe what he did was worse because he's a man? What a double standard.

It's sad, because 17 years later, he stiull desparately wants to get back together with his wife, he insists it was a one-time drunken screw-up, but you can't fix what's broke, sometimes.

I personally don't like the guy, and I'm very close friends with his ex-wife, so don't make the mistake of thinking I've taken his side. I just happen to know the other woman, too - and she is a mean, manipulative woman.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #31
105. Why would someone be attacked for telling the truth of
Edited on Wed Sep-15-04 06:55 PM by jdjkkse
their experience?

The reason we have a court system is to mete out disagreements like this.

If some feel it's a broken system, they can work their asses off to change it. Women have done this with pay inequality to the effect that we now still make about .80/hr less than men for equal work, after 30+ years of attacking this issue. We may have gained a dime or two in 30 years, but no more.

However, denying self-evident truths is not going to win any friends to the "feel sorry for Dads" movement. Especially when you make assertion that the social inequity women have experienced for about, say, 5000 to 12,000 years is exaggerated or imagined. ('S and M words, LOL, we all know what b.s. that is") If you just want to piss people off, fine, but geez, don't expect to throw digs and not be confronted. Men will earn respect as good fathers by actively trying to get more men to be good and better fathers. As long as so many people have personal histories that are contrary to these assertions, it is going to be an uphill battle for the men that are good fathers. But you can't give up, women haven't and we never will.

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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #105
125. What the heck are you talking about?
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #125
143. I'm not surprised that you don't know.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #143
148. You are all over the place
Replying to posts I don't start, etc.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #148
155. No, child, I'm right here.
I'm replying to an attitude.

One that you keep defending, even when you should know better.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #155
159. Again what are you talking about
Start from the beginning read every word. You replied to posts that were not made by me, then tried to spin away.

Not defending true "deadbeats"

Don't have an Axe to grind.

What attitude are you referring to?


I haven't been a child since the seventies.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #28
60. sorry your mom was selfish, but your story is hardly "typical"
of the people i grew up with. therein lies the problem with this thread...what's "typical" depends on a lot of life circumstances, e.g., money and class.
the folks where i grew up didn't have nearly the money your parents did, for one thing, not even your dad. divorce was rare...people just didn't do it.
in the neighborhood i grew up in, absent fathers were as common as present fathers. and most of the absent ones not only didn't pay child support, but they also didn't bother to see their children.
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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #60
121. That's sad. I met all kinds...
I had a friend whose dad was exactly like that Fitts guy in "American Beauty". FBI agent, crew cut, mom left them, somehow Dad got custody - Their house was too clean and neat, but all the furniture was very 60's, like the houses in "Edward Scissorhands", without all the colors.

I'll never forget the time I spend the night when we were about 9 years old. At the dinner table, Matt told an inocent, throwaway joke, and his dad smacked him and said "SHUT UP, YA LITTLE SMARTASS!" In all my years growing up, my dad NEVER talked to me that way, and certainly not in front of friends. I could VERY easily imagine why the mom wanted out.

Whether my story is atypical or not, I do think it's importatnt to note that the stereotype of the abusive or philandering husband is also atypical. The vast majority of divorces stem from money problems, and more often than not it's because the wife is not satisfied in that arena.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #121
127. Thanks for bringing you experience and wisdom
to this thread. Some of the vitriol spewed at me make me wonder how some call themselves progressive.

Some issues just can't be discussed rationally I guess?
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #121
128. wow...amazing what people think is acceptable
that poor kid.
only fools believe in stereotypes. i can only go by what i've experienced, and what i have experienced is knowing a lot of single mothers who aren't getting ANY child support.
that's not to same that's the "typical" situation...frankly, i don't think there is one. but i do think it is the most common child support scenario.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #128
132. The facts are quite different from what you believe.
Nearly all pay.
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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #132
138. Our opinions are always colored by our experiences, but take care...
I agree that many men are getting a raw deal on this issue. There are still a lot of women also suffering. I don't know what your personal experience is because I haven't had time to read the ENTIRE thread, but I hope you're not coming at this from a position of getting back at women because you got a raw deal. If you did, you have my sympathy, because I know what my dad went through, but beyond insisting on more fairness and equality in the way divorces are settled and enforced, well, I just don't want to go in the direction of blanket blaming women.

Custody of children should go to the parent who can provide the best home environment, whether the wife or the husband, and with older children, the child should have a lot of input.

Parents required to pay child support, should pay it, regardless of their gender. I do think that the amount should be within reason. If the parent paying support is a bagger at Wal-Mart making $1500/mo, $750/mo. is UNREASONABLE. I've heard of situations like this, and it's just wrong.

And the parent collecting child support should have to account for how that money is spent. As I said, my mom spent at least half of hers on herself. And she didn't help much with my brother's tuition either. There needs to be some accountability.

So, my final word on the thing - stats are interesting, but the goal should be equality and ensuring the well-being of the kids, not bashing women or men for being "the ones at fault".
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #138
144. I agree with nearly every word.
I agree that many men are getting a raw deal on this issue. There are still a lot of women also suffering.(TRUE) I don't know what your personal experience is because I haven't had time to read the ENTIRE thread, but I hope you're not coming at this from a position of getting back at women because you got a raw deal. (I HAVE CUSTODY)If you did, you have my sympathy, because I know what my dad went through, but beyond insisting on more fairness and equality in the way divorces are settled and enforced, well, I just don't want to go in the direction of blanket blaming women.(NEITHER DO I)

Custody of children should go to the parent who can provide the best home environment, whether the wife or the husband, and with older children, the child should have a lot of input. (AGREED)

Parents required to pay child support, should pay it, regardless of their gender. I do think that the amount should be within reason. If the parent paying support is a bagger at Wal-Mart making $1500/mo, $750/mo. is UNREASONABLE. I've heard of situations like this, and it's just wrong. (TRUE)

And the parent collecting child support should have to account for how that money is spent. (TRUE)As I said, my mom spent at least half of hers on herself. And she didn't help much with my brother's tuition either. There needs to be some accountability. (YES)

So, my final word on the thing - stats are interesting, but the goal should be equality and ensuring the well-being of the kids, not bashing women or men for being "the ones at fault". (EQUALITY WAS THE GOAL)

Great post fellow DUer
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skygazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
35. The whole system is screwed
Edited on Wed Sep-15-04 03:40 PM by skygazer
And I can honestly understand why some people do end up throwing up their hands in disgust and walking away. Though I know most don't.

I'm a non-custodial mom and I pay my ex $615 a month for one child. I don't object to paying support but this breaks me. My paycheck after support and taxes equals less than half of what I gross. In addition, though I have joint custody and a visitation order, my ex has refused to allow my son to visit me here in California (he lives in Virginia). He knows I cannot afford to take him to court over it, which is the only way the court will intervene and force him to comply.

I cannot afford to take the time off from work to go there and visit. I would have to pay for airfare, motel room, food, rental car and entertainment whereas if my son came here, I would not have most of those expenses and could continue to work during the visit. Nor can I afford to move, not that I want to.

My son will be 17 in December. I have seen him once in almost six years.

Edited to add - my ex works full time and makes nearly as much money as I do. None of that was taken into account in figuring my support amount. I pay the full amount - 25% of my income before taxes. I was also assessed arrears for the three months between the time my ex filed for support and the time of the court date.

Oh, and I had been voluntarily sending him money regularly. I did get credit for that - luckily I keep meticulous records.
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #35
172. I am so sorry Stargazer
There is so much BS in this thread it is amazing.

First of all, people divorce for a variety of reasons.



One of my divorces? He smoked crack and beat the hell out of me. Wild man. My mistake. His two kids are in college. They live with me. We have one car. I have no job. I get no help at all from Freeper Father. When the youngest (son) graduated high school this past spring, no one from the father's side -that includes Dear Papa( my son named him "Sperm Donor" on all the required school forms)-had the decency or concern for this great kid to attend graduation, call or send ANYTHING.

The worst one: Quiet guy, alchoholic ( found out after marriage) whose silent stoic exterior masked a psychopath. Zell Miller helped him win custody, long story. I couldn't even go eat lunch at his kindergarten ( he was connected with the school board-go figure) even though i was found to be a fit parent and my rights were not terminated in any way. It was the heartache of my life I try not to talk about it but this thread brings it back up again.
This experience completely changed me as a human being, but because there were good men who tried to help me I can never blame ALL MEN for this.

I have other children. And an ex who is still a great friend. My youngest lives with him but I am custodial parent ( he promised never to do what the psycho did and he has lived up to it.) Neither of us pays the other ( son is with me all summer) but we are happy to help each other, and if I made enough to support the household I have now and his, I would gladly do it for my child. Anything I give his dad or buy for him is out of my mind as I do it. I don't love money; I love my kids. Maybe why that's why I never have any?
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
50. not this tired old whinefest again
poor poor dead beat dads
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
56. As a gay person, all this does is prove to me that DOMA is a sham
you guys can fuck up your relationships and you kids lives all you want and then when someone mentions gay marriage it's "WHAT WILL WE TELL THE CHILDREN????" after you guys fuck them up and raise them on anti-depressants.
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Susang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #56
61. Don't blame us hetero non-breeders, we don't have any children to tell
Edited on Wed Sep-15-04 05:24 PM by Susang
Oh, I am soooo gonna get flamed for that one! }(
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 05:40 PM
Original message
I need to protect my right to marry my seventh wife!
There was a great cartoon here simliar to that.

The anti gay marriage nuts have no legs to stand on.




Here is a different one
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
110. That's hilarious.
Thanks for posting it.

Today I saw the saddest bumper sticker. it said "half my heart is in Iraq", they also had a yellow ribbon on their car, and a rainbow sticker.

But of course there are no gays in the military.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #56
68. I need to protect my right to marry my seventh wife!
There was a great cartoon here simliar to that.

The anti gay marriage nuts have no legs to stand on.




Here is a different one
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #56
91. One of the (minor) reasons I'm in favor of gay marriage ...
... is that I'm hopeful I'll live long enough to see the comparative statistics on divorce between gay male partners vs. lesbian partners. :evilgrin:

No matter which has the lowest rate, I'm confident us hetero's will come in third place with the highest rate.

Is a guy who's been married twice and twice "cuckolded" (I hate that word - I prefer to say we had "incompatible sleeping habits"), I'm under absolutely no delusion that divorces are predominantly the fault of the husbands.
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #56
133. I've been saying this for so fucking long...
I think this is why the gay marriage fight makes me so furious! It is so hypocritical. The "sanctity" of marriage my ass.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
57. men get routinely screwed in American divorce courts
I think deadbeat kids are more of a problem than deadbeat dads.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
58. reality check: how many people know deadbeat fathers?
Edited on Wed Sep-15-04 05:25 PM by noiretblu
:hi: perhaps the stereotype is overused...but let's not pretend men not supporting their childen isn't a problem.
my sister's ex-husband hasn't paid a DIME in child support their since three children since were born. the oldest just graduated from high school. SLANDER...MY ASS.
i know at least 20 other women in that same situation.
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TecnoCrat Donating Member (47 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #58
69. I do.
Mine was/is.

Didn't pay my mother a cent until I was 16, and never made any attempt to see me. When he was finally sued for it, he wanted to see me and make amends. I gave him an honest shot, and that lasted for three years until he disappeared again, overseas this time we think. He's fathered two more little girls, one that shares my birthday.

I never had a father. I turned out good though. He was deadbeat, and I swore I'd never be like him.
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #58
131. Yo!
I do, and know many women who are in the same boat. I know of no men in my real life who are dealing with "dead beat moms."

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bleedingheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #58
136. I know of many
and sadly my father was one to his first child, he didn't pay support a few times and ended up having his wages garnished.

My cousin's last husband has abandoned his responsibility for their son.

My coworker's ex-husband owes a lot of back support but to his credit he still does visit the boy.

An old friend of mine has an ex who has never seen their child. He never paid more than $75 a month for support which is a pittance given that he is an experienced bricklayer.
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TexasSissy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
63. Bullcracky.
I don't need a survey or a study to tell me what I've seen my entire life: It is usually the man who wants out of a marriage with children; the wife usually files because that's agreed to by the parties (it's tradition and considered gentlemanly for the husband to let the wife file); yes, most fathers have little chance of getting sole custody of their children, just like mothers have little chance of it these days; most states award joint physical custody, but that does NOT mean yo-yo-ing children between two households every 24 or 48 or 72 hours; yes, fathers who walk out on a family typically leave that family behind, incl. the children, in one way or another, even if only partially (that's the reason he's leaving....duh).

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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #63
82. I don't believe you for a second..
... so please post some sort of proof of your claim.

Most marriages are ended by women, every study shows it and your "tradition" stuff is pure fiction IMHO.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #82
88. I think the assertion is that the man wants out, but the woman
files.

My mother never dared end her marriage with four kids, for many women it's either asshole or welfare (gov't asshole) so they choose the devil they know over the devil they don't know.
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #88
118. I understood...
... the assertion, but every anecdotal instance I can think of is exactly the opposite, which is also what studies say.

The last 4 divorces of people I knew the woman wanted to end the marriage and the man did not, or was blindsided and acquiesced.

Plus, the olden days of "woman at home, man at work" dissappeared decades ago yet this idea seems to be at the root of the absurdly sexist and unfair amalgam of laws governing child custody, asset division, and child support that most states have.

And it won't hold up as a reason that "women stay in bad marriage" any more because most women can do ok financially without a man - which might very well be at the root of the frequency of divorce now. Which is not to say that I think anyone should stay in an unhappy marriage, simply that perhaps the divorce rate in the 40s would have been as high as now had women been in the workforce and had the option...
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #118
137. How can that be?
I could name a many examples just like those you stated.

All the people who disagree here seem to know the "facts" despite the fact that the findings do not support them. Thanks for posting, do so at your own risk. :scared:
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #137
140. Come ON..
what do you expect? Silent acquiescence?
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TexasSissy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-16-04 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #82
180. I can only report what I've seen in my life, and I've
seen/known a lot of broken marriages. Scores of them. I have never run across one that I can think of right now where the woman was the one who chose to end the marriage.

Of course, who ends up being the first one to walk out is not necessarily the one who ended or ends the marriage. I've known a few relationships where men have intentionally done all they could to get the woman to leave (I've even heard guys discussing this tactic among themselves).

I can only report what I know. Wait....I didn't know them, but I recall a couple in my office where both the husband and the wife had each left their spouses to marry each other. So that was one instance where that woman must have left her husband (no children involved), but then, her new husband had done the same thing, so that sorta cancels that out.
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
130. There are lots of bad dads. There are lots of good dads.
"Dads" on the whole are not the number one group of "victims" on my list. If they are yours, then bully for you. Feel free to stay on your soapbox, and I'll continue to work with the people in my real life - guess what, 100% of them are women whose fathers of their children ran out on them. And I'll continue to listen to my two social working friends, and what they have to say about what they see too often when it comes to fathers and responsibility.

The reality of fathers who bail on their families is a reality. The reality of fathers who ditch child support is a reality. The reality of fathers who don't bail and don't ditch is also a reality and no one who talks about the problem of dads who do is saying otherwise. The fact that not all fathers do that is a kind of well duh statement that doesn't really warrent comment. Of course not all fathers who go through divocrce, whether asking for it or granting it, are bad fathers. But many are. Parents should be responsible to support their children. When they don't, there should be consequences. Can we do a better job when it comes to how "child support" is handled? Sure. What else is new?

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bleedingheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 08:24 PM
Response to Original message
139. All of the reports you cite are somewhat biased
the first website you list is ...

American Coalition of Fathers and Children...

The second web site you listed is the Sacramento Bee but it is publishing an opinion piece by individuals who are associated with the first web site.

The third web site is

Fathers 4 Justice

While I think that both parties share blame in divorce I think that each situation should be judged separately.

They key thing is that the two adults who are responsible for raising a child should do their best to put their differences aside and do what is best for their children. The sad fact is that I have seen both men and women behave like imbeciles because they are so bitter about their divorce.



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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #139
150. Well, that is a freaking shock.
I have read some of the material from the paternity police, and apparently they want to turn back the clock to where fathers own their children like property, and women have no legal rights to their children whatsoever. At least this is what I gather, as they often allude to laws from the 19th and early 20th century, and hearken back to the good old days, when women were chattel, and childhood didn't exist.
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bleedingheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #150
154. The sad fact is that the kids get screwed in the end
many have parents who manage to divorce and be good to the kids but there are still kids whose parents are morons who can't get past their own "issues" to realize they brought these kids into the world.

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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #154
169. Very True
My ex, who is here doing her laundry right now, agrees!


Mrs. exLinc says hi to some, poopoo to others. lol

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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #139
156. Heck just use the census
Are they Biased to?
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bleedingheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #156
164. no the census isn't biased but it states facts but not reasons
your sites all have a bias in favor of fathers (which they have a right to do) but the census figures do not cite the reasons why women have the custody of the children. Once again you are implying information that is not specifically stated.

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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #164
171. I'm not saying that. Never have.
What am I implying?

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bleedingheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
145. Here is the CENSUS data 5 out of 6 single parent households
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #145
152. It says allot more than that!
Did you post that to show women are awarded custody nearly every time?

Page five says nearly twice as many custodial mothers live below poverty level as custodial fathers. Did you post it to show the courts are not give custody to the parent who could provide best for the children?

Thanks for the link!
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bleedingheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #152
157. So women who are statistically paid less would never get their kids
Edited on Wed Sep-15-04 08:51 PM by bleedingheart
I see how it works...

Only the wealthy women would get their kids and the stay at home mothers would be screwed.

The study only states the data but not the reasons you are implying information that is not there.

If anything I think it shows that men aren't really keen on raising their kids and would rather have their ex do it. Also the stats include women who have children out of wedlock (as they are also single parent households)....so you are implying a lot...



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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #157
165. Income shouldn't be the primary factor.
It's relevant, but the respective parents' ability to create a good home is primary. A rich businesswoman who's never home might be the lesser choice than a guy with a modest income whose Mom wants to babysit in the day, or vice versa. The judge needs to look at it on a case-by-case basis, and the decision will be subjective in many cases.

I still say that if the child is over 8 or 9 years old, his/her choice should be the primary determining factor.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #165
167. I agree with ya!
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #157
166. I am not impliying anything You brought these charts
What am I impling that is not there?

You said 5 of 6 are headed by women, apperently to back you claim that this thread is wrong and you are right.

I encourage everyone to read the charts and the links and the OP.
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bleedingheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #166
168. Does it cite the reason women were awarded custody????
answer that...

it doesn't.

Awarded Custody doesn't mean that they "won" it means they are the ones who got custody but it doesn't cite the reason why. So you are trying to imply that somehow all men lose custody from this report and that is not the case because this report just includes the "after the fact" stats.

To be honest I think that a lot of divorce cases are settled amicably with both parties agreeing that the children will reside with the mother as it is the typical "social practice". Eventually there will be a paradigm shift where we may see a 50/50 split.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #168
173. Social Practice?
How else can women be awarded custody in 9 of 10 divorces, if there is no Gender Bias?

I wish most divorces were settled amicably!


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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #173
177. how?
"How else can women be awarded custody in 9 of 10 divorces, if there is no Gender Bias?"

Even if I ccept your initial statement - that figure ONLY reflects those ex couples that argue about custody - many reach agreements on their own without putting themselves and the kids through a court case.

Often the custody arrangement is based ont he fact that if only one parent is working it's usually the father - meaning the mother is home to look after the kids (not so relevant in the case of older kids) while the father isn't - what children want is also taken into account, often they want to live with mum.
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
151. Well well
Proof is in the pudding. When fathers actually fight for custody they win 75-80% of the time.

Fathers can make great custodial parents. Mothers can suck. But the fact is, rather than focusing on "FATHERS" or "MOTHERS" we should focus on how to make this nation better for ALL PARENTS AND THEIR CHILDREN.

I lost custody of one of my six to a man that beat the hell out of my kids and me. I know the sickness of our adversarial form of custody litigation. It sucks for everyone, but most especially for kids. I am tired of men whining about this ONLY when men's rights are affected.

Fight for the rights of ALL....... I said ALL parents.
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 09:16 PM
Response to Original message
170. who actually files is irrelevant
just because a women files doesn't mean she's responsible for the marriage breakdown - maybe she just had the guts to end it, men often (not always) have a bury head in the sand attitude when a relationship is failing.

Every friend of mines who's parents divorced when they were kids hardly ever saw their fathers DESPITE the constant pleading from the mothers - the fathers were often too busy with the new wife and kids

Out of all the stories I'm personally aware of I know of only one "dodgy" mother one.

While there are many men with legitimate greivances there are also a large number who seem to belive that their wives shouldn't have been allowed to divorce them, and want to turn the clock and courts back to the 1950's we have our own little local group of misogynistic nuts who "protest" outside the houses of women who dare to leave their husbands they leaflet neighbourhoods telling people that the women in question is amoral (they do not ever protest at the homes of men who leave a marriage)

The head of this group (who call themselves Blackshirts) threatened his ex wifes boyfriend - repeatedly - and insisted she come back to him, not surprisingly the court granted the mother full custody - which he did not contest and he refuses to see his kids because he does not consider himself divorced - "They will be reunited in heaven, he says. "The whole family will be reinstated. That's what heaven's about; there there's no pain."

While this group is a bunch of unrepresentative bampots the problem is they are NOT condemned by mainstream fathers rights groups - they sometimes say they disagree with their methods (but importantly not their aims) but always add "but men are driven to this" message.

Sorry - rambling post I know but whenever I see this stuff I get images of the Blackshirts, wearing balaclavas or face masks, standing outside the house of a friends neighbour with megaphones annoucing to the neighbourhood that she had shamed and corrupted her kids - we had all gone over to her house because she was terrified - given another of Abbot's quotes "Adultery must be met with the greatest severity, I'm very angry, but I don't yell. I just make a list of men and women to die." it's hardly any wonder
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #170
176. Thank You! n/t
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-16-04 04:57 AM
Response to Reply #170
187. Please post liknks to the fathers rights groups statements
about the subject you bring up.
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October Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
178. Love to believe this...my own dad was indeed a deadbeat
Sorry. It's true.

He left town when I was 5 mos. old.
Never paid child support -- balked and thought he owed nothing
Took off, went to California (3,000 miles away)
Changed his soc. sec. #
This was all in the early days of such "child support" issues
Never sent a b'day card
Never remember us at the holiday time
We all suffered financially and emotionally
Still thinks he did nothing wrong (Met him in my adulthood)
Acts like a victim (latches on to stories like the one above)
Oh, and he's a total repuke, now -- falsely crying "father's rights"


Hey, I know there are good "dads" out there. I'm married almost 20 years to a wonderful man, and he's a great father to our children! I'm just adding my personal experience.

I hate that people like my father grab these stories and rant to their buddies that they were victims of the court system, etc. He's one cold-hearted SOB.


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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
179. My father was a deadbeat dad.
My sons' father was a deadbeat dad.

I personally know many great divorced dads; they aren't all "deadbeats," by any means.

I also have known some moms who took advantage of the child-support paying dad.

It's never that simple. Not all dads abandon their kids, emotionally or financially. Not all abandon all parental responsibilities. But some do. Some fit the stereotype/s quite well. It seems to be a typical American trait to want everything in black and white, either/or; "All divorced dads are deadbeats" or "It's just an illusion. There's no such thing."

There are so many issues for all involved in a family divorce. Even in the best of circumstances, those issues are all real.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-16-04 04:55 AM
Response to Reply #179
186. Thanks for an honest post
The subject sure brings out the best in some Duers. :eyes:
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-16-04 06:28 AM
Response to Reply #186
189. You're welcome.
Divorce tends to bring out the "best" in the parties concerned, whether they are the ones divorcing or not. ;-)
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alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-16-04 12:38 AM
Response to Original message
181. OK, I read the other thread....and most of this one
Edited on Thu Sep-16-04 12:39 AM by alittlelark
For you to say you have no bias is ludicrous.

You have a bias...you can deny it if you wish, but it is blatant (see a therapist if you don't get it). MANY people, of both genders have been burned in child support/custody cases.

YOU are not a "LONE VICTIM"....My experience is gender-opposite. I am fortunately married to HS sweetheart (we had our 1st date in 1989).

My friends have had DRAMATICALLY different experiences. I guess all your friends are 'great upstanding guys'. I know a few of them - they are ALL married.

I get hit on by married guys all the time! They know I'm married (1 is even a peer of hubby - he knows). Two have had the nerve to hit on me while going on about how well our kids get along.

Men are ruled by their gonads - women are ruled by a combo of ovaries and offspring.

You will never convince any logical female that men are only concerned with the best interest of their offspring! They produce MILLIONS of sperm Females produce one egg at a time. We invest (and Psychologically, that investment continues).

Few women will abandon their children, however, large #'s of men will.


If you want to rant about $$$$$$$$$$ go republican, they'll agree w/you.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-16-04 04:52 AM
Response to Reply #181
185. What are you talking about?
What other thread? If it is the one I am thinking of, take a real close look at what the OP said.

If you read this thread you know I have my children right?

If you read this thread you know it was amicable right?

Don't attack me for bias and then call me a republican, you have no right. Thats what freepers do, attack the messenger.

I,m not the only poster in this thread that agrees with the articles.

After a 320+ flame fest over a comment a newer poster made, you have the nerve to make a sexist statement alike that and say men are ruled by their gonads? Uneffing believable!
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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-16-04 05:28 AM
Response to Original message
188. Boo Hoo Hoo
I've read these and other propaganda sites, and I'm not convinced. What I see is a lot of hadnwaving by guys who want an excuse not to pay their child support. Boo fucking hoo.
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sadiesworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-16-04 08:19 AM
Response to Original message
190. I was in private practice for seven years...
with more of my time devoted to custody/support issues than I usually care to reflect upon. Nonetheless, women DO generally receive primary physical custody of their children (particularly younger children). It probably has more to do with the answers to the following questions, than anything else:

Who wakes the child for school?
Who fixes breakfast?
Who makes sure schoolclothes are clean and ready for wear?
Who makes sure that permission slips/notes are signed?
Who makes sure that the child has lunch money/a packed lunch?
Who makes sure that the child gets to school on time?
Who does the school call in the event of an emergency?
Who makes the dentist and doctor appointments?
Who takes the child to the dentist and doctor?
Who takes the child for haircuts?
Who takes the children shopping for clothing and school supplies?
Who plans the birthday parties and buys the presents?
Who takes the children to after-school activities?
Who fixes dinner?
Who makes sure that homework is done?
Who bathes the child?
Who makes sure his/her teeth are brushed?
Who gets up in the middle of the night with a hungry baby or a scared child?
Who stays home from work with a sick child?

In my experience, the person with the most affirmative responses to these sorts of questions (assuming general fitness on behalf of both parents and adequate legal representation of both) end up with primary physical custody. It is also my experience that women (GENERALLY) assume most of these duties.

Just my .02.
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