Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

U.S. Falling Behind in Education

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU
 
Killarney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-14-04 01:25 PM
Original message
U.S. Falling Behind in Education
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=542&e=5&u=/ap/20040914/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/education_compared
A growing number of nations are doing a better job than the United States in getting young people through high school and college, a study found.


Among adults ages 25 to 34, for example, the United States is 10th among other industrialized nations in the share of its population that has a high school degree. Eighty-seven percent of U.S. adults in that age group have at least a high school education.


Nations such as Korea, Norway, the Czech Republic and Japan have had faster growth in high school completion, and have passed the United States on the way up the rankings.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Zinfandel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-14-04 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. Keep Americans dumb, has long been a republican think tank solution...
Edited on Tue Sep-14-04 01:54 PM by Zinfandel
for republican and corporate control...keep Americans dumb---in so much as, they will then be very easy to control with bullshit patriotism, as well as making sure they get all their "news" from the republican owned corporate media---which will keep the dumb & poor from voting in favor of their own working-class self interest, but instead can and will be easily manipulated into voting for Republican ideology, i.e. CORPORATISM!!!

Keep the populace DUMB!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cthrumatrix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #1
16. BINGO....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Maestro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-14-04 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
2. Wait a second
Define high school degree. We are the only country that lets anyone and everyone into our public education system regardless of race, sex, creed, religion, language, handicap and intelligence. We accept all. Many other countries offer tests that route children through different programs, some vocational; others more academic. The ones that are in academic programs are the ones that test against our children. It is their elite group many times. It's not really making an apples to apples comparison.

Plus, simply from the sheer number of kids in the American public school system, our scores and graduation rates will be less because our population is so much larger. The law of averages would dictate that we certainly are not going to test as well and when coupled with the fact that Jimmy Q Public is going up against the elite academic kids of other countries this makes the situation look worse.

It's all fine for people to complain when they don't know the whole story, but the fact is that you can still get a very good education here, but repukes won't let you believe it and then they do their best to continue to destroy it with underfunded, unrealistic programs like NCLB.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
whosinpower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-14-04 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. The only country?????
I don't think so. Sorry to burst your bubble - but Canada accepts all as well. It is rather disingeneous to make such a statement that the US is the only country to do so.
Japan crafted their education after the US model - as did Korea.

Germany has a universal system up to grade 4 (grade 6 in a couple of states) At that point, each student is rated where he excels at and is appropriately placed. There are three levels.
If the German system is more attuned to what is best for each student - then perhaps the US should adopt that model - as apposed to throwing everyone into the same classroom and hope something sticks.

I would agree with you that repub's seek to undo universal education in the US....it is more of the "ownership" society GWB talks about.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Maestro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-14-04 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. You not bursting my bubble.
Only is too strong. One of the few...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Blue Wally Donating Member (974 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #3
11. Biggest problem with that.........
US vocational training programs don't hack it.

In countries with vocational/technical tracking, the completion ticket for such training is pretty much accepted carte blanche by employers. That has never been the case for US vocational programs. The only US public high school vocational programs which provided a sure "ticket" were the typing/shorthand commercial courses which have lost their value with word processing. Go tell an employer that you have completed four years of woodshop. he starts you at the bottom just like everyone else.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OldEurope Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #3
12. No no no, don´t adopt the German system!
It is bad. The children are far too young when they are separated. Germany´s school system has got bad notes at the recent rankings within Europe (from the OESZE, don´t know how to translate this)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
9119495 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #3
13. But do those nations have
as extensive a history with the legal discrimination against a huge minority group or groups? We're still digging out of a hole that Canada, Germany, and Japan have not been in since WWII at the latest. What else explains lower scores and graduation rates amonst minorities?

Sorry, but our system is working--considering how much money we get per student, and the tremendous encroachments on local control by the present administration.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Killarney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-14-04 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. We're 10th. I don't think that the nine above us
are nazi regimes where only the smart kids are allowed to go to school.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Maestro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-14-04 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. No I didn't say that.
Don't put words in my mouth, but certain kids are funneled into vocational tracks are excluded from testing as their "academics" are more geared to their apprentice work.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-14-04 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. "only"?
No, there are many nations doing that. Even countries with multi-tier school systems (like Germany) usually allow parents to overrule the assessment.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Maestro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-14-04 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
6. Fine
Believe whatever the effin hell you want but our education system is doing fine and I refuse to let people fall for the idea that we are failing students and I could care less where we are compared to other countries so if you believe that there is a massive problem with education shut up or put up. Investigate what is really taking place. Many teachers are telling NCLB to go to hell and we are teaching kids to be literate thinking human beings. I dare any of you to become a teacher as I have and stay in it through thick and thin.

P.S. And yes many countries do exactly as I have stated. Believe or not!

Also, here is a snippet about the Japanese system that I found. I believe it describes what I am talking about.

"A characteristic of the Japanese school system are entrance exams, and with them a high competitiveness among students. Most high schools, universities, as well as a few private junior high schools and elementary schools require applicants to write entrance exams. In order to pass entrance exams to the best institutions, many students attend special preparation schools (juku) besides regular classes, or for one to two years between high school and university (yobiko)."

Although one poster was correct in that the Japanese after WWII began to model their system after the US.

http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2150.html

At this site, I believe it states that the upper secondary education of Norwegian education is divided into vocational studies and more specific academic studies geared more towards 'professional' careers or however you want to term it. I doubt those in vocational education tracks are compared against our students. Who knows?

http://www.norway.org.uk/education/education/secondary/secondary.htm

Please look here how the Czech system is divided among other things between academic secondary, technical secondary and vocational secondary tracks. http://www.czech.cz/index.php?section=5&menu=8

So I repeat that yes, to compare our students to others and say we are doing poorly compared is not exactly correct.

Finally, here are some good sites to peruse...

www.susanohanian.org

www.rethinkingschools.org

www.irvingisd.net/~spollard (mine)

http://www.alfiekohn.org/

http://www.america-tomorrow.com/bracey/EDDRA/index.html



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SheilaT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-14-04 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
9. While our system certainly has its flaws,
it's still true that we basically let anyone and everyone into the same academic track, regardless of preparation, inclination, or willingness, unlike most (maybe all?) other industrial countries which funnel off large percentages of their students into non-college bound tracks by about the junior high level.

It's our strength and our flaw. We really do need a better vocational track, or maybe some kind of leaving certificate system starting at about the eighth grade level, with good entry into various apprentice programs at that point.

What we have instead is a system that never shuts anyone out. How commonly do adults over typical college age attend college and get a degree in other countries? Very few, I suspect.

Our junior college system is for the most part excellent, providing academic and vocation opportunities for all.

I'm speaking as one who has attended college on and off her entire adult life, never bothering with a degree, but being able to go on learning.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
9119495 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. Don't forget also that we educate ALL SPECIAL NEEDS
students. Do these countries?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 07:39 AM
Response to Original message
10. The systems are not comparable.
Edited on Wed Sep-15-04 07:42 AM by LWolf
Looking at the 4 systems of education you mentioned, the obvious connection is the tracking of some students to vocational ed. There are some other differences, but that one factor is going to increase graduation rates; when non-academically inclined students have a strong vocational ed program as a choice, and earn their "high school" diploma that way, fewer of them drop out. In the U.S., vocational ed at the high school level has declined drastically. It's non-existent at the high schools in my local area. In the U.S., and in my state in particular, we've "raised standards." That means that in order to get a high school diploma, you are on the college track. When I was in high school, the college bound took college prep courses. Everyone else took general ed, with a few vocational choices thrown in for those inclined. No wonder our drop out rate is going up. Ironically, our current run to right-wing ed reform feeds this trend; the more students "fail," the more they can assign blame and turn up the volume and intensity for their agenda, which causes the "failure" to begin with.

Again, the irony: one of the tools used in this agenda is the "ranking" of schools and students against one another. Which means, of course, that someone is always "behind." Whether it's a local, national, or international ranking.

I'd love to see a comparison of education expenditures in terms of the percentage of gdp for all of these systems; I didn't have time to look all that up this morning. That would make an interesting comparison. Of course, right now, way too many U.S. ed dollars are going towards testing programs, compliance/documentation paperwork, and consultants/training on how to teach the way the right-wing ed reformers want you to. It never actually reaches teachers and classrooms except as more demands and mandates divorced from actual teaching and learning.


http://www.askasia.org/Korea/r7.html

High schools are divided into academic and vocational schools. In 1995, some 62 percent of students were enrolled in academic high schools and 38 percent in vocational high schools. A small number attended specialized high schools concentrating in science, the arts, foreign languages, and other specialized fields. This is still the case.

http://odin.dep.no/odinarkiv/norsk/dep/kuf/1997/eng/014005-990603/index-dok000-b-n-a.html

In Norway, "lower secondary school" ends at grade 10. So does compulsory education. The next level, "upper secondary school," is open to all, but not compulsory. It offers both academic and vocational training, and lasts 4 years. In Norway, primary school begins at age 6, our first grade, not K, although some "pre-school" is available. If you do the math, you'll see that, by the time students in Norway finish "upper secondary school" and are ready for Higher education, they've had one more year of instruction than American kids. America: K-12. Norway: 1-10 compulsory, then 4 more years of academic/vocational training. And: The cost of education in Norway amounts to 7.6 per cent of the gross domestic product, while the OECD average is 4.9 per cent (1995).

http://www.euroeducation.net/prof1/czechco.htm

In the Czech Republic, compulsory education begins at age 6 and ends at age 15. Non-compulsory secondary education then has 3 branches: An academic secondary ed, age 16 - 19; a technical secondary education, age 16-19; an a vocational secondary education lasting from ages 16 - 18 or 19.

As Maestro pointed out, students are sorted out with entrance exams before high school in Japan. Not every Japanese high school education is equal:

http://www.ericdigests.org/2002-2/japanese.htm

Many American public high schools are comprehensive. While there are a few comprehensive high schools in Japan, they are not popular. Between 75 and 80 percent of all Japanese students enroll in university preparation tracks. Most university-bound students attend separate academic high schools while students who definitely do not plan on higher education attend separate commercial or industrial high schools. In the United States, students enter secondary schools based on either school district assignment or personal choice. For the overwhelming majority of students in Japan, high school and university admissions primarily are contingent upon entrance examination performance. The best Japanese high schools and universities require high entrance examination scores.

And this doesn't even begin to look at the issue of inclusiveness, and of other factors that affect education outcomes, such as how a society values learning and intellectual habits, levels of poverty and crime, levels of $$ and other support for the ed systems in question.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
9119495 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. As always, an insightful post on education from LWolf.
Nicely put.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Maestro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. @9119495's about LWolf
I second that! I wish I were as elegant.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Thanks to you both.
It's amazing what soundbites, misleading rhetoric, and incomplete information can do to the reality, isn't it?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
18. uuuuhhh Beavis... uuuhhh...
:-) Educational measures are not measuring common sense.

Might does not make right. War is no solution... clearly schools
have failed to teach basic humanity, and instead are focused on
solutions for maths problems.

Education should first teach "what is knowledge", and have an ongoing
classroom track for epistemology to temper the illusion that high
school is teaching "knowledge"... rather high school teaches skills.

All the "falling behind" paranoia is about, is relative competietiveness
of the US labour force in global competition for the lowest wage...
hardly a noble pursuit.

Bottom line, a culture that spends vastly more on mass murdering
non-white people, is ignorant, no matter what its schools say.
The miltiary budget should get cut, and all the soldiers and airplanes
brought back to the 50 states. Then we can focus real money on
institutions of learning and knowledge. Laughable "education" they
call it. Congress has entire committees dedicated to making sure
that the "workforce" is trained... but nobody gives a toss if
the population is truly educated. Its all really sad, and any
barbed comments i've made are rooted in that sadness for such
a spoiled rotten mess of war, fear and hate.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri Apr 26th 2024, 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC