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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 10:34 AM
Original message
Pope Pius apologist at Marshall U
http://www.marshallparthenon.com/news/730694.html?mkey=105601

An expert on the Roman Catholic Church defended the name of Pope Pius XII Thursday in the Memorial Student Center.

Sister Margherita Marchione visited Marshall Thursday evening, and said the course of action Pius chose during the Holocaust was best.

Pope Pius XII was pope during World War II and many of his critics have said he was silent during the Holocaust.

The pope ordered the officials in the Catholic Church to hide as many Jews as possible, Marchione said.



the man was a Nazi sympathizer--I love how the Church is trying to clean up his image

sort of like the Repukes and Nixon except Nixon wasn't complicient (is that the right word) in the deaths of millions
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Inland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
1. Well, come on. Martyrdom isn't for everyone,
and the Pope was looking at himself in three square miles in the middle of Nazi occupied territory, and the majority of his church living in Nazi occupied territory, maybe for centuries.

That's not complicity. That's survival.
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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. That's bullshit. There were more nazis in and out of the vatican...
...than at Wolf's Lair. A contingent of the nazis were uber-christian catholic fanatics. Survival? I think not. Survival is managing to eke out an existence in a labor/death camp.
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Inland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Nope. Can't pin Nazism on catholics, or vice versa.
The Nazi party wasn't christian, although you could find lots of christians happy with fascism. But then again, so was Lindburgh and Joe Kennedy.

But that wasn't your point. Your point was that Pope Pius shouldn't have spoken out against the Nazis to help jews, and all I said was that choosing martyrdom for himself and putting his church into persecution was the only option open.
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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Don't put words in my mouth. My point is that Pius could have done much..
...more to prevent the millions of deaths of the Holocaust but was silent by choice and complicity.

Martyrdom for Pius wasn't an option. And no one was planning on persecuting the catholics.
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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Piused off...
Dear Cecil:

I wanted to respond to your column about the worst Catholic saint, an oxymoron if there ever was one. In this column you depart from your high standards and trot out that threadbare, tendentious canard that charges Pope Pius XI and Pius XII with anti-Semitism. To bolster your argument, you refer to John Cornwell's 1999 book Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII. Many Jewish leaders who were contemporaries of Pius XII expressed their gratitude for Pius's help in saving many Jews in Italy and other countries. I hope you will see fit to revisit this issue. --John Reistroffer, Chicago

Cecil replies:

Don't get excited, bub. For one thing, the first pope I said had been charged with anti-Semitism wasn't Pius XI (1922-1939) but rather Pius IX (1846-1878), who oversaw the kidnapping of a Jewish child who'd been secretly baptized by his family's Catholic maid, then raised him as his ward. As for Pius XII (1939-1958), well, readers may judge for themselves.

Though Pius XII was considered saintly while alive, his reputation took a hit in 1963 with the appearance of Rolf Hochhuth's play Der Stellvertreter ("The Deputy"). Hochhuth depicted the pope and other church leaders as cynical appeasers who, while publicly deploring Hitler's excesses, privately believed Germany to be the only force that could save the West from the Bolsheviks. Though the play is over-the-top in places, its portrayal of Catholic officialdom's timidity in the face of totalitarian evil squares well enough with history that many were moved to take a second look at Pius's papacy. Pius has powerful defenders to this day, however, and has been nominated for sainthood by Pope John Paul II. But others see it this way: The Holocaust presented the Catholic church with the ultimate challenge, and the church pupped.

Space doesn't allow a detailed treatment, but here are a couple key issues:

Was Pius XII anti-Semitic? The evidence is sparse, but John Cornwell cites a letter in his book that gives one pause. In 1919, while Eugenio Pacelli, the future Pius XII, was serving as papal nuncio (ambassador) to Bavaria, communist revolutionaries seized power in Munich for three weeks. Pacelli sent this account to Rome, describing a palace occupied by the reds: "An army of employees were dashing to and fro, giving out orders, waving bits of paper, and in the midst of all this, a gang of young women, of dubious appearance, Jews like all the rest of them, hanging around in all the offices with lecherous demeanor and suggestive smiles. The boss of this female rabble was mistress, a young Russian woman, a Jew and a divorcee. . . . is a young man, of about 30 or 35, also Russian and a Jew. Pale, dirty, with drugged eyes, hoarse voice, vulgar, repulsive, with a face that is both intelligent and sly." The pope-to-be might've had plenty of reasons to look down on the revolutionaries--a distaste for violence, for instance, or simple snobbery--but it's difficult to read his remarks as anything other than anti-Semitic.

Could Pius XII have done more to save the Jews? The conventional argument, then and now, is no. Hitler was not about to be deterred from his murderous designs; if anything, papal complaints would have increased Nazi savagery. All Pius could do was shield individual Jews. If he harbored less-than-brotherly feelings about them, his conduct as pope didn't betray it: No one doubts that he spared thousands from death by hiding them in monasteries and the like. In Three Popes and the Jews (1967), Pinchas Lapide, one of the pope's many Jewish defenders, estimates that the Catholic church under Pius saved 700,000 to 860,000 Jews. But the method used to calculate these figures is dubious--Lapide simply takes the number of European Jews who survived the war, subtracts those saved by non-Catholics, and credits the remainder to Pius and company. Whatever the number, the pope wasn't the prime mover in these rescue efforts; local clerics were the real heroes.

Let's not quibble, though. Here's the crux of the issue: By mid-1942, Pius could have had no doubt that the Nazis were slaughtering Jews en masse. Yet though papal representatives did lodge protests against the deportation of Jews, the pope himself made only vague appeals, never mentioning Jews or Nazis specifically. (The one time he intervened personally, in an attempt to halt deportations from Hungary in 1944, he referred only to people persecuted because of their race.) Granted, others also equivocated. The Red Cross, for example, kept silent for fear its humanitarian work would be halted. But Pius was the pope. He had a unique responsibility to speak out--no one else's words would've carried the same moral authority. Just a few years later, he denounced communism and made it clear he wanted bishops in Soviet bloc countries to oppose it, even if they risked persecution. Condemnation of the Holocaust might also have provoked reprisals, and certainly wouldn't have stayed Hitler's hand. But if ever there was an occasion that demanded such a noble if futile gesture, wasn't this it?

--CECIL ADAMS

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Inland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. "A noble but futile gesture"? At the risk of his life and the church?
I don't understand the implicit requirement of the pope to make himself a martyr and risk the lives of the clergy and the very continuance of the church as an institution--for no practical effect.

When the Nazis surrounded the Vatican, a rational observer would have seen at least a strong possibility that the Nazis would win the war and remain in control of the center of the catholic world for years to come. He valued the survival of the institution under a hostile and brutal occupation--and it seems that the evaluations do not.

I think calling for another person's sacrifice from a safe distance is one thing but ignoring his responsibility to make sure the church and its clergy survive what could be a hundred year reich is baffling.


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Inland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Done much more? Like what?
Go ahead and tell us what that would have been to prevent more deaths. And as for noone planning on persecuting catholics, the nazis showed themselves quite capable of sending clergy to concentration camps---and killing entire populations in occupied territory.

You are calling for Pope Pius to risk his own life and the existence of the church as an institution. Yeah, he could have done that. But I don't hold martyrdom to be mandatory, even before I find out if it would save a single life.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
8. Can't believe
people still fall for that canard. The Catholic Church saved more Jews than any other religious or government organization (and many died for it in concentration camps). Looks like hate never dies.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
9. Maybe you can argue
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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
10. give it a few more years, and pius will be washed completely clean
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Or the other way around
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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
12. Marshall U? The Parlock's university?
Kinda like the guy that supposedly attacked the little girl, wearing a pro-Kerry union shirt and a backwards Marshall U cap? That school? I would expect no more of them than this...
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
13. From Rabbi David Dalin
These points are especially significant in evaluating Pope Pius XII's enduring legacy for twentieth, and twenty-first, century Jews. It needs to be remembered, as noted earlier, that no other Pope in history has been so universally praised by Jews. So, too, the compelling reason for this unprecedented Jewish praise for, and gratitude to, a Pope needs to be better remembered than it has been in recent years: Today, more than fifty years after the Holocaust, it needs to be more widely recognized and appreciated that Pius XII was indeed a very "righteous gentile," a true friend of the Jewish people, who saved more Jewish lives than any other person, including Raoul Wallenberg and Oskar Schindler. A new authentically Jewish history of Pope Pius XII and the Holocaust, emphasizing his historic role and accomplishments as a "righteous gentile," may help to bring some long-overdue recognition to his too little known and appreciated legacy as one of the century's great friends of the Jewish people.
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