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"Run of the Mill": the Plame Threads unplugged

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 11:18 AM
Original message
"Run of the Mill": the Plame Threads unplugged
Edited on Fri Sep-24-04 11:27 AM by H2O Man
Run of the Mill: Plame Unplugged

(1) I spent several hours yesterday talking with two friends about the Bush plan for a military draft, about 9-11, and about the Plame/ Niger document forgeries/ neocon spy scandal. My friends, "Delaney and Bonnie," are from the Lakota nation. The son, a Pipe Carrier, believes that 9-11 was MIHOP; the mother, a gifted healer, believes 9-11 was LIHOP. I believe something a little different, closer to what is shown in Michael Moore's "F 9-11." But we all agree that the Bush administration has an unholy alliance with the "royal family" from Saudi Arabia, and that the 9-11 Commission purposely avoided revealing the truth about what happened on that day.

The purpose of our meeting was to organize opposition to the Bush plan for a huge draft in 2005. They were amazed at the amount of valuable information available on the Democratic Underground. They reminded me of how decades ago, Onondaga Chief Oren Lyons had warned a group of us that everything is a consequence of what has happened before, and that when Americans allowed the federal government to ignore the USA-Native American Treaties that define Indian rights, it was merely a matter of time until that same government would violate the constitutional rights of the larger society.

The more we talked, the more we agreed that the key to reaching the larger society about a large number of related issues -- including the wars in the Middle East, the oppression of women, the environment, the draft, the truth about 9-11, and many more -- need to be brought to the public's attention in an organized manner. And we agreed that the issue that is most likely to be easily understood by the largest number of Americans is our new three leaf clover: the Plame/Niger document forgeries/neocon spy scandal.

(2) Several months ago, an ad hoc group of DUers began a fascinating discussion of the Plame case. This led to many of the group investigating several important aspects of the case, and how it relates to other important issues in Campaign 2004, including the illegal and immoral sale of the weapons of death and destruction; of the unconstitutional war in Iraq; and the attempted coup by neocons who are determined to subvert our constitutional democracy.

The Plame threads have provided significant information to a wide audience of democratic activists who are determined to reclaim that constitutional democracy defined by our Founding Fathers, and upheld by the patriotic generations who have come before us.We produced a number of valuable "research" and "position" papers on Plame. And while the original group has since "disbanded," with some members moving in other important directions, the core group continues to contribute to the Plame threads.

I reviewed a couple of those papers with my friends yesterday. The first outlined our theories on why the White House exposed CIA operative Valerie Plame: {a} to punish her husband for exposing President Bush for lying about WMDs as a justification for his invasion of Iraq; {b} to intimidate others who could show the public the criminal behaviors of the administration; and {c} to derail an investigation into the sale of WMD components that Plame was involved in.

The second paper of interest related to the structure of our constitutional democracy. The federal government is supposed to have a separation and balance of powers: the executive, legislative, and judicial branches all play an equal though not exact role. This administration is intent on destroying that balance by {a} claiming a "right" to declare pre-emptive wars, and {b} control the nation's "purse strings" as related to the wars they start. Both of these actions are absolutely prohibited by the U.S. Constitution.

This week, we have found out that CBS was prepared to run a story that exposed the Niger "yellow cake" documents as forgeries. This story would absolutely expose this administration as the treasonous felons they are, and the election would be as humiliating a defeat for Bush as 1992 was for his dad. But, of course, that story was derailed in the same manner as Plame's investigation.

In order to really appreciate what is occuring today, we need to take a brief look at two other executive branch scandals that are very closely related.

(3) "Watergate" was a series of closely-related scandals within the Nixon administration. On 6-17-1972, police arrested 5 men who had broken into the Watergate office building, which housed the Democratic National Headquarters. The men were carrying electronic eavesdropping equipment. Although Nixon would win an easy re-election, his public support eroded as an investigation by Carl Bernstein and Bob Woodward connected the break-in with the president's "inner circle."

The televised US Senate investigation uncovered massive abuses of power by the executive branch. These included the obstruction of justice and involved campaign contributions, the CIA, FBI, IRS, and other federal agencies. America was stunned by the extent of the crimes committed by members of the administration.

In July of 1974, the US House of Representatives voted to impeach Tricky Dick Nixon. He resigned in disgrace on 8-9-74. Over 50 people connected to Watergate would be convicted of serious crimes, with about half experiencing well-deserved incarcerations. Nixon, of course, was pardoned by Gerald Ford.

The Nixon administration had posed the greatest threat to our constitutional democracy since the Civil War. Two things continue to stand out: that a small group within the administration attempted to subvert the separation of powers by controling the ability to wage war with other nations, and to control the purse strings. Also, it is extremely important to remember that many of the Nixon administration are among the most influential in the Bush 2 administration.

(4) Those same criminals did not go directly from the Nixon to the Bush 2 administration. They were first to be found in the Reagan-Bush 1 administration(s). From 1982 to 1992, they were involved in a series of scandals known as the "Iran-Contra" scandal.

On 10-5-86, a US cargo plane was shot down over Nicaragua. Within hours, VP Bush was notified, including by a CI message from Costa Rico that said that the "situation requires we do necessary damage control." The damage, however, led to a series of cover-ups that showed how out-of-control that administration actually was.

Like Watergate, Iran-Contra was a series of crimes and attempted cover-ups that involved a significant group of neocons within the administration. This group was intent on controling the war powers and the purse strings that our Founding Fathers had granted exclusively to the congress. The scandals included the sale of weapons to Iran to attempt to secure the release of American hostages in Lebanon, and to raise funds for the "contras" in Nicaragua.

On 6-5-87 a joint House & Senate Committee began televised hearings. The American public saw a group of criminls from the executive branch lie under oath about the crimes they had commited. The public also saw "businessmen" from Iran and Saudi Arabia testify about the complex financial dealings the neocons in the administration were involved in.

This congressional committee would conclude that a "cabal of zealots (had) undermined the powers of Congress as a co-equal branch and subverted the Costitution." They were describing the administration efforts to control the war powers and purse strings.

Independent Counsel Lawrence Walsh would find that both Reagan and Bush had participated at some levels in parts of the series of scandals. Walsh was able to convict 11 felons from the administration. However, as he was leaving the presidency in disgrace, Bush 1 would pardon most of these criminals, saying it was "time for the country to move beyond" the scandal.

Just as in Watergate, a group of the criminals from the Reagan-Bush 1 administration(s) would become key players in the Bush 2 administration.

(5) The Plame/Niger forgeries/neocon spy scandal is a consequence of both Watergate and the Iran-Contra scandals. It is also our three-leaf clover for teaching this truth to the American public. These treasonous felons know the public will recognize for what they are if the news media were to report this case accurately. That is why the neocons are pulling out all the stops to abuse the news media with lies and distortions about Dan Rather. He was getting CBS too close to telling the truth.

People on DU know that Rather was hated by the Nixon and Reagan-Bush1 administrations. We also know those same people have a passionate hatred for John Kerry that dates back to the Nixon and Reagan-Bush1 administrations. Both Rather and Kerry played significant roles in exposing their efforts to take control of the federal government.

When we take back the White House, and begin to restore the life breath of constitutional democracy, including a separation/balance of federal powers, the American public will again be witness to televised hearings of investigations into the crimes of this group of un-American felons. There will be convictions. There will not be pardons.

Then and only then will we be in a position to actually understand the issues which keep America from being able to be an agent for peaceful change in the Middle East. Then and only then will we be able to have the moral authority to reconcile the hatred that has brought us to the brink of another world war. And then and only then will we be in a position to examine the other terrible scandals in our recent history, including 9-11.

(6) "Everyone has the choice, when to and not to raise their voices. It's you that decides." -- George Harrison, "Run of the Mill."

We have several weeks left before the election. We need to raise our voices. We need to decide this election. Please consider writing a letter to the editor of your local newspaper about the Plame/Niger forgeries/neocon spy scandal. Thank you!
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PoiBoy Donating Member (842 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
1. Thank you..
for an excellent and extremely informative post... do you have your documents posted online somewhere? I'd sure like to read more on the results of your outstanding research... :hi:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. There are a series of Plame threads in General Discussion.
The last one is back a couple pages; it's "Come Together part 2" and has several good papers on it.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
3. We all have to be warriors in this fight to preserve our nation &
the Constitution. We need to be in the trenches and in the mud, doing the equivalent of hand-to-hand combat against the neocon operatives. We have to take them down and disarm them each and every time they peddle propaganda and disinformation. We have to scream the truth over the repetitive drone of their talking points and the teachings of Newt: If you repeat a lie often enough, the masses will believe it.


We have to be the ones turning back the ridiculous attacks of the neocon dirty tricksters from Nixon's days, so our candidates can stand in the light and talk policy. They can defeat the junta if they can set the dialog. The junta cannot run on its record nor the issues facing the nation. The junta has no solutions. Let our candidates speak of the problems and their solutions. Let us do the ground fighting.

We need to be in the trenches and in the mud, doing the equivalent of hand-to-hand combat against the neocon operatives. We have to take them down and disarm them.

Thank you, H2O Man and all those who have put together the research and given us the ammunition we need for the fight.

The nation is ours to save or lose. We cannot sit and wait for someone to do something. We are the someone and what we do or fail to do determines whether the noble experiment of our republic continues or perishes within the next few months.

Keep it kicked. This is the ballgame, folks. Time for all of us to get the fuck off the bench!

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Thank you!
It sends a chill down my spine to read a powerful message like yours, Havocmom! Our Founding Fathers recognized the people as the sovereign power in this country. Grass roots democracy is what the United States Constitution is all about!
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never cry wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
5. Nice analysis H2O man
These guys keep coming back like vermin. Our government is infested with rats and I don't know if we will ever be rid of them completely. The best we can hope for, I fear, is to shine a bright light on them so at least the majority of the citizenship is actually aware they are there.

Thanks for this posting.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. They need to be held
responsible for their actions. There need to be consequences for criminal behaviors. When that happens, their type will stop. But not until then.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
7. Brilliant H.
and inspiring. We've gone far too long without a Waterman Paper.

These people have got to be done away with once and for all. They are like rats that keep coming back out of the sewers. And I am of the opinion that a Kerry win is not the complete answer either, because these rats are too determined and infiltrated to just fade away. I read on another board that what these people did to Clinton will seem like kindergarten with what they are going to do to Kerry. That struck a chord with me and points of the need to get rid of the poison that has been seeping though the life blood of our government. A complete transformation is needed and Kerry will only be the beginning.

PoiBoy:
Here are links to the previous Plame threads. They're chock-a-block full of info and "papers", along with being a terrific read.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2123068

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2206963

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2225780
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
8. Get those LTTE going folks
and a :kick: for this one.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. RebelYell is reporting on another thread
That Larry Franklin has been arrested.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2409120

Can anyone confirm this?

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-04 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Larry Franklin is the fellow
who approached the Israeli "spies" with a handful of documents a year ago at a public place, while being watched by the FBI. In the time since then, Larry has been "turned," and has helped the FBI to investigate the neocon-Israeli front connection. As you may recall, this involved {a} the plans to have strikes against Iran; and {b} the forged Niger yellow cake documents.

The full story appeared on the Plame threads about a month ago. I would note that the legal issues that Franklin is facing had nothing to do with anyone's website.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-25-04 06:15 AM
Response to Original message
11. "None Dare Call Them Neo-cons"
by Ahmed Amr, in the Media Monitors Network. See:

http:usa.mediamonitors.net/content/view/full/10017/
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-25-04 06:16 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. LTTE in Philly Inquirer
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-25-04 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. Under a Kerry Administration...
Could we wage an effective campaign to get the case re-opened/pushed forward?
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-25-04 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. The Plot Thickens.....
<<<snip

"So the story that the Israeli espionage case is dead and AIPAC will rise from the ashes even stronger is true, right? Not necessarily.

Various American Jewish publications are currently attacking the senior FBI counterintelligence official heading the AIPAC probe, David Szady, as — you guessed it — anti-Semitic. Szady led an investigation a few years ago regarding a CIA attorney who happened to be Jewish and this appears to be the basis of the pro-Israeli press attack on Szady.

However, although Szady heads the counterterrorism FBI unit, he also is an expert on illegal technology transfer.

Possibly Szady is investigating something more serious than just a “policy paper that resembled an opinion-editorial” that was given to the Israelis.

And if one reads all the news about the Israeli spy scandal, you will find many accounts that indicate that this probe has been conducted for two years or more and it is looking at much more than just Franklin and the “policy paper.”

In addition to the official probe, AIPAC is also on the radar screen of various other groups in the US for additional indiscretions. A recent public opinion poll, which was commissioned by the Council for the National Interest (CNI), showed that a majority of American citizens of all ages and backgrounds strongly believe that the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) acts as a foreign agent for the Israeli government. And a group of former US diplomats is reviving a legal suit which asks the US Federal Election Commission (FEC) to require AIPAC to register and report its finances as lobbying funds, something that is not currently required of the pro-Israeli organization." cont...

"Ambassador Andrew Kilgore stated, “Someone has to get AIPAC to account for its improper and possibly illegal activities. If Congress and the press won’t take them on, we will”.


http://www.aljazeerah.info/Opinion%20editorials/2004%20opinions/September/25%20o/Maybe%20The%20Spies%20Who%20Arent%20Really%20Are%20Michael%20Saba.htm


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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-25-04 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Whaaa ????
This article in the Toronto Star is about the impact currents events is beginning to have on television shows.

<<<snip>>>

And more is on the way.

A report recently discussed a dramedy in development at Fox, which is loosely based on the scandal over the public identification of undercover CIA agent Valerie Plame and her husband, former U.S. ambassador Joseph Wilson.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1095966966110&call_pageid=968867495754&col=969483191630

I guess this is one way of getting the story out!
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-25-04 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Kick
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. KICK!
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-04 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #15
27. OMG...there's not one of those shows I would watch, but you make a
good point...it's one way of getting it out. :eyes:

Here, we've been living with the truth...maybe someone should do a story about Democratic Underground Survivors...and some of our little poignant comments.... Life on the Internet after Stolen Election and 9/11---How we Survived!
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-27-04 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #11
19. Your link is broken. Can you fix it, please? n/t
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-27-04 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. I'm not sure why it doesn't work .....
but the article is still available on news at google for "Plame." It's an interesting article, and I'd be interested in what people think of it. Sorry about the missing link, but it's easy to find at google news.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-27-04 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Here's The Link
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-27-04 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
18. It's a great time
to write a letter to the editor of your local newspaper. There are more than a dozen important issues -- from the war to the economy to Plame to 9-11 -- to choose from. It is an important time, because the debates are coming up, and because the republicans start to increase their # of letters at this point.

We have a distinct advantage: we can tell the truth, while they have to resort to lying and distorting the truth. America is thirsty.... and we can place our clean glass of water next to the filthy glass the republicans offer.We should never underestimate the amount of good that LTTE do. It's one of the most important parts of grass roots democratic action.
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RaulGroom Donating Member (331 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-27-04 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. H2O, did you see today's Novak column?
He doesn't mention Plame, but of course the Plame affair is the 800-lb gorilla in the living room. Just wondering what you make of the timing of Novak's sudden realization that the CIA is at war with Bush (funny since he fired the first shot himself.)

http://www.suntimes.com/output/novak/cst-edt-novak27.html

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-27-04 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Thanks ....
I had actually read a commentary on Novak's very strange column. I'm less concerned in general with what he says, than why he says it .... and surely the timing of his strange little piece is curious .... does he enjoy fanning the flames? Is there a grudge involved, that causes Bob to try to rub some salt into open wounds? Did someone suggest he write something to insult some of the IC? I'll be watching to see what, if any, reactions there are to his article.

What did you think of it?
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RaulGroom Donating Member (331 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-04 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. I think it's odd.
But beyond that, I can't really say. It was interesting that it came out at the same time we found out about the CIA plan for rigging the Iraq elections, but otherwise, I'm at a loss. It doesn't make much sense for Novak to be calling attention to this at this point.

I was gratified he practically quoted He Was a Hack, subsituting the word "buffer" for "firebreak" when talking about Tenet's departure. I wonder if his clipping service gets him my stuff.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-04 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Has anyone noticed Novak has gained in popularity since Plame?
He's everywhere looking very confident and there was even a promo on CNN for his new show where he cooks with the "White House Chef."

He's still enjoying Crossfire and is used for on air commentary more than before.

That's pretty distressing. Where does he get his power? I know it's rumored he's CIA but it must go deeper than that. I tried a Google on him way back and didn't come up with anything significantly damning. I think he's made use of the "scrub" feature the powerful can use to search and destroy obvious links about them, so one would have to spend lots of time trying to find crosslinks to articles which might reveal something. He's been around so long, I wonder if there's much to be found on the internet even in obscure cross links, though.

The other odd thing about him is that he used to be very anti-Israel. Yet, he doesn't complain about the Neo-Cons abuse of power. One wonders if his "anti-Israel" stance all those years was just a cover. I've also heard rumors he's Opus Dei... The ultimate hypocracy and flexing of his power muscles is his attacks on Dan Rather and CBS. It's shocking that he can get away with it. So, it means he's very connected...but to whom in the CIA or is it the FBI...was he a buddy of "J. Edgar"...knows where some bodies are buried?
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-04 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. I Think Novak Gets His Power
from being a Rove henchman. This is a pattern with Novak, and while he he never did anything as serious as Plame before, he has a track record of being a big, fat. lying, conniving, toothy snitch on behalf of the WH and Rove.

And it is terribly perverse that his fortunes keep on rising especially as he is reputedly one of the most disliked hacks in the business. I comfort myself with the notion, supplied by Newton, that what goes up must eventually come down. And, the bigger they are the harder they fall. I'm hoping Hubris is his constant bedfellow these days, for he's a tricky guy and likes nothing better than to plunge a fated stiletto into the backs of those who have gotten too big for their britches and have forgotten from whence they came.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-04 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. I agree with Me.....
Novak is a lap dog for the neocons. And the owners of CNN know which side their bread is buttered on: Novak has been good for their business. How many people have taken part in any organized boycott of CNN, or contacted their (non-neocon) sponsors to complain? Compare that to Bob's ability to get information from the White House.
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starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-29-04 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #30
47. Novak and Robert Hanssen
I hadn't heard there was an Opus Dei connection to Novak -- so I went Googling and found that at the very least, he has a connection to Opus Dei priest Fr. C. John McCloskey -- who's also credited with converting Alfred Regnery (publisher of the SwiftBoat book.)

But I also ran into something I hadn't known about at all -- Novak's connection to FBI agent/Soviet spy Robert Hanssen, who was also an Opus Dei member (and who belonged to the same church as Rick Santorum.) Back in the 90's, Hanssen gave Novak some information intended to discredit Janet Reno. Then, when Hanssen was revealed as a spy, Novak decided it was his duty to . . . reveal his source. . . .

Here's the opening of Novak's own column on the matter:

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/robertnovak/printrn20010712.shtml
July 12, 2001

Three and half-years ago, I reported that a veteran FBI agent resigned and retired after refusing a demand by Attorney General Janet Reno to give the Justice Department the names of top secret sources in China. My primary source was FBI agent Robert Hanssen.

Disclosing confidential sources is unthinkable for a reporter seeking to probe behind the scenes in official Washington, but the circumstances here are obviously extraordinary. The same traitor who delivered American spies into the Kremlin's hands was expressing concern about the fate of intelligence assets in China.

When my source was revealed as a spy, my first fear was that I had been the victim of disinformation by a truly evil man. I wrote my column of Nov. 24, 1997 only after other officials confirmed Hanssen's account. Nevertheless, I now wanted to make doubly sure and rechecked my report's validity. I did so, and several sources -- including one FBI agent who would not speak to me in 1997 -- totally confirmed what I had written. I am absolutely convinced that Hanssen told me the truth.

Then, why break a reporter's responsibility to keep his sources secret? I wrestled with this question for months and finally decided that my experience with Hanssen contributes to the portrait of this most contradictory of all spies. Furthermore, to be honest to my readers, I must reveal it.



I've tended to assume that Novak is just one more right-wing thug, and that his role in the Plame outing was merely a factor of his thuggishness. But the closer he's looked at, the stranger his position seems. It would be really nice to have a clearer take on just what role he's playing.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-29-04 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. Kind of explains...
why he's still "employed" at CNN!
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-04 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #48
95. His little "slippery tub" thing is interesting. The timing is incredible.
But, he's 73. How old is Mike Wallace, Morley Safer, Walter Cronkite?

Do they take extra calcium, or stay in places where the tub isn't so slippery? :shrug:

Now...I'm not saying this isn't just a normal accident. I for one have found Marriott Residence Inns and Hotels to have the slipperyist of tubs...so maybe it was just a "mis-step" in the shower. A maid who left some soap film or a rush to go to a press party.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-04 07:09 AM
Response to Original message
24. "Bush Second Term = Scandal"
Edited on Tue Sep-28-04 07:14 AM by H2O Man
"...it often takes several years for a scandal to unfold..." See:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/9/27/195426/221

found at news at google for Plame
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-04 07:13 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. "The Reporters Put Under Scrutiny in CIA Leak"
by Adam Liptak. Great article. See:

http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20040928/ZNYT02/409280455

found at google news for Plame
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-04 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. What I found odd about this article, is that there doesn't seem to be any
new information in it. It seems a copy of an article I read weeks ago either in WaPo or NYT's.

What am I missing that's new here? Maybe I've just given up hope and didn't scour it for a missing piece but the article seemed to be more about the argument over how far should govt.vs. reporters protecting sources go, and uses nothing new about the Plame Investigation to back it up?

:shrug: any thoughts?
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-29-04 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #29
35. This Is The Hanging On by Fingernails, Survivor Part
of the Plame story. Not much info lately as all that's going on isn't being shared. Fitz runs a tight ship. We're holding on, waiting, hoping for indictments. Much of the dialog right now centers around theory. Yet fascinatingly, interest in the story hasn't gone away.



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kohodog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-04 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #25
33. Another, somewhat oblique article in Newsday
This is in a DU LB Thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=871460&mesg_id=871460

NEW YORK -- The New York Times sued Attorney General John Ashcroft on Tuesday, seeking on First Amendment grounds to block the Department of Justice from obtaining records of telephone calls between two veteran journalists and their confidential sources.

The lawsuit said the justice department was "on the verge" of getting records as part of a "leak" probe aimed at learning the identity of government employees who may have provided information to the newspaper. It asked a judge to intervene.

It said the government intends to get the records, which reflect confidential communications between journalists Philip Shenon and Judith Miller and their sources, from third parties unlikely to be interested in challenging its authority.

The lawsuit said the justice department has advised the Times that it plans to obtain records of all telephone calls by Shenon and Miller for 20 days in the months immediately following the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/ny-bc-ny--nytime...



It seems to go beyond Plame, but also seems to be related to the discussions we've had with regard to Freedom of the Press and Plame. Novak committed a criminal act in naming Plame, along with the person or persons who outed her. This article seems to be a bit more disturbing as the Press needs confidentiality with regard to whistleblowers who leak criminal actions by government officials. It would really be a travesty if the legacy of Plame was to do away with confidential sources ability to speak to the Press without reprucissions. I hope Fitzgerald isn't playing into the neocons hands.


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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-04 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. I'm Assuming This Part of Fitzgerald's Investigation
with Miller & Shenon, has to do with finding out who leaked the info about the raid. Could it also be hooked to laundering business with AIPC. Geez what a tangled mess! Everybody has influence with the Tushites but the American people.

I thought you made a good point on the other thread, about why couldn't they obtain the phone records of the target and get the info that way, instead of the reporters, and duck the lawsuit roadblock? Do you know why H.? Is Fitzgerald sending a message with this? Also will suing the justice dept on this get any traction and slow it down?

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-29-04 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. Well, now, isn't this something?
Here I think I'll be breaking an important piece of the Plame puzzle in the morning, only to find two of my best friends on DU already discussing it! I think that the story is covered in about 50 newspapers across the country this morning. They can be found at news at google for Plame.

One of the best is from Newsday; the author is our friend Patricia H., who has the very good grasp of exactly what is going on. She writes about the NY Times' attorney suing to block Fitzgerald's efforts to obtain their phone records.

A key phrase in her article is that this is part of a "sweeping 'leak' probe ..."

This phrase gives us reason to pause, and perhaps reflect upon some of the history of the case. Remember that about a year ago, the case was being buried while Attorney General Ashcroft pretended to be investigating who may have leaked Plame's identity to Novak and six other reporters. Ashcroft would be forced to recuse himself when some information became known that put the investigation into a "different light." The mass media reported that it likely involved Ashcroft's knowing some of the suspects.

Bullshit. Every DUer knows that Ashcroft is friends with and has close ties to every high-ranking White House official -- so if that were the reason to recuse himself, he would have done so on day one. It was something bigger than him being friends with Rove.

In the spring of 2004, the Plame threads started on DU. I had been predicting the date that the indictments for those individuals who exposed Plame to Novak would be handed down. I also quoted from a TIME story a few lines that indicated that there was far more to the story than revenge against Wilson for challenging Bush's lies. One phrase in the article made clear that the effort was taken to derail an investigation being undertaken by Plame that related to the sale of WMD components.

About a week before the date I had predicted, a federal judge agreed to give Fitzgerald an extension of the Grand Jury proceedings. This was because the scope of the investigation had increased significantly. Note that this occured after Fitzgerald got the phone records from the White House, including Air Force #1's.

We know that this expansion includes looking at the role the two NY Times reporters played in warning an Islamic charity that may have contributed to terrorists, that they were going to be visited by the FBI.

Then we learned that Larry Franklin had been caught giving state secrets to an Israeli front in Washington, DC. This was a part of a coordinated effort to set the stage for a strike/invasion of Iran. It is also known that the investigators know the Israeli front was the source of the forged Niger yellow cake documents.

The reporters in question have thus far only testified to a few conversations they had with one White House official. Fitzgerald is looking to blow the lid off the top of the White House cover-up. The reporter's phone records along with other phone records will play a role. They will lay a further foundation that will be used to compell the testimony of the NYT reporters, and a couple of others.

Early on in the Plame threads, I noted that there are intelligence resources who "serve" on every major media in the country.I think we see now that it is not simply that they "report" what they are told to: they make phone calls and manipulate to an extent that the public generally does not realize.

We all wish Fitz had produced indictments in July. But he has linked the Plame exposure with exactly what we had uncovered on the Plame threads: the biggest scandal in US history, which has huge domestic and international implications. When I wrote that we are faced with a constitutional crisis, it was not an exaggeration.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-29-04 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #36
41. Spell It Out H.
"Bullshit. Every DUer knows that Ashcroft is friends with and has close ties to every high-ranking White House official -- so if that were the reason to recuse himself, he would have done so on day one. It was something bigger than him being friends with Rove."

What exactly are you hinting at here. Every little detail please.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-29-04 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. "every little detail..."
While I do not think that I am able to provide all of that today, I can say this: the Niger yellow cake uranium documents seem to have been produced and distributed by the groups that the neocons that we have been discussing coordinate efforts with. These include a small number of interests from Israel and Great Briton.

These neocons have created bases of power within our executive branch. On the Plame threads, we've discussed the Office of Special Plans (in Dept of Defense, reportedly "disbanded") and the similar operation in the State Dept. run by the neocon mole John Bolton.

We have also discussed how this group had their own intel operation run out of the VP's office. We know that VP Cheney brought the Niger information to CI for investigation. We know that VP Cheney was given an oral report, which involved Wilson's confirmation that two other reports that exposed the yellow cake documents as false. We know that even before Wilson wrote his NYT op-ed, there was a meeting in Cheney's office formulating a plan to discredit Wilson, because he knew the Niger documents were forged.

Keep in mind that British intel refused to share the documents with the International Atomic Energy Agency, although international agreements require this.

These documents were a key to the administration's case that we needed to invade Iraq. The obvious questions include: {a} who forged the them? {b} who requested they forge them? {c} for what purpose?

The White House officials exposed Plame to derail the investigation that would have uncovered the truth. However, a combination of Larry franklin singing in the neocon spy case, and John Hannah singing in the Plame investigation, brought the scope of this case into focus. It goes straight to the VP's office.

There are two current threads regarding the CBS story on the Niger documents, currently being held back until after the election. I urge all DUers to work hard in the next week to bring this story to the public's attention.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-29-04 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. Thank You
So, perhaps the conjecture could be that the neos got together with likudniks, devised a scheme for the forged documents then arranged the hand off to the Brits through the Italians. Personally I like Wolfowitz and Perle for being the group leaders on that, it seems a good fit. But what I don't know exactly where it goes from there. Aside from assuming that all the neos knew what the basic game plan was, but did they all know the details, beforehand, or did some of them come in on the back end as pooper scoopers? Did they bring the veep office in on the hand off to add credibility after they had the forgeries? And was the reason for the forgeries a twofer, make the case for war and set up the sting on Plame? Cause for all I know I may be talking spit here.

Do we know exactly how the Brits got wind of the documents? Am I remembering correctly that Italian Intel told them? I know some tried to make a case that it was the French though they denied it. Though as the French are in the process of going after Cheney. If they had duped the French into passing the docs to the Brits and so on, Cheney could have gotten two birds with one stone. Destroyed the credibility of the French and gotten the war he was hankering after.

And where does Asscroft fit in. I know he's tight with Tush and Rover, but Cheney? The neos?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-29-04 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. Good questions....
(1)In order to accomplish their grand goals, the neocons must do away with the federal balance of powers, as outlined in the Constitution. If the neocons needed an Attorney General who believes that there is something dangerous about the United States' Constitution, and who was willing to trample the Bill of Rights, they sure did select the right man, didn't they?

(2)Remember that when Jim Garrison was trying to solve the puzzle of Dallas, he became bogged down when he tried to follow every lead, and every lead led to several more splits in the road. Don't go there, It's not necessary to follow every trail in Italy, England, and Israel. That's the maze that they have created to throw people off course. Concentrate on only that which is necessary.

(3) Information is passed between agencies and individuals in a number of manners. It is interesting to consider three examples: {a} Franklin attempted to pass state secrets to the intel agents of the Israeli front in broad daylight. The two agents refused possession of the documents, because they suspected they were being watched. So they had Franklin give an oral presentation on the documents; luckily, the FBI was "listening," too; {b} on 3-8-03, there was a meeting in VP Cheney's office regarding how to handle the potential threat posed by Wilson; and {c} two White House senior officials called specific people in the media to expose Plame. In each case, it can be viewed as information being given on a "need to know" basis.

(4) The Niger documents were not produced with Plame in mind. She posed an unanticipated and unacceptable risk to the lie.

(5) The "need to know" model of compartmentalization is one of the strengths of the neocons as far as keeping information secret.
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kohodog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-29-04 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. Bush and Ashcroft: "Blues Brothers"
The two of them are on a self proclaimed "Mission from God." Ashcroft may actually have the Resident's ear more than Cheney. A while back Capital Hill Blue mentioned that Ashcroft may be the most dangherous person in the administration. He has more to do with our Constitutional freeedoms being ripped away than perhaps anyone outside the Supreme Court. I'm still amazed he appointed fitzgerald to prosecute this case.

H20, I've been too busy to do more than occasional Google searches but am glad you have kept this issue alive in the threads. It will be the straw that breaks them, regardless of the outcome of the election. I'm sure many other Plame participants are keeping track too, but I also think that the DUers work has had an effect on the media and others.

What do you make of CBS killing the Niger story? Is it purely a politically motivated corporate power move? Or is there more to it?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-30-04 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #50
55. I do not believe in "coincidence"
I think that everything is connected. In my opinion, the decision to delay the Niger document story was influenced by someone within CBS who was either looking out for the best interests of this administration on his/her own, or who was directed by someone from within the administration who is a master of manipulation.
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Mandate My Ass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #55
147. The "reason" read excuse CBS gave for not airing the segment
Edited on Thu Oct-14-04 10:05 AM by Monica_L
sounds very fishy to me. Greg THielman gave a lecture here yesterday and he said right around the time the segment was about to air, Dan suddenly got the scoop about the AWOL documents. Thielman was told it would air in one week's time. After the font forgery was oh-so-conveniently discovered and Dan was in the hot seat, CBS then told Thielman the segment was on permanent hold because CBS didn't want to do another forgery story. :wtf:

IMO, neither of these stories is about forgery per se, although there is an element of it in both. Rather, they are about high level cover ups for Bush's incompetence and corruption. Who sent Dan those documents and why didn't CBS vet them when they knew they were a potential bombshell?

The timing of the Dan Rather scoop about AWOL, which was finally getting play because of Ben Barnes going public about getting Bush his cushy spot in TANG, is highly suspicious because it managed to accomplish quashing any public discussion of two very important topics: AWOL and Niger, which of course leads to Plame.

Thielman also said people at the State Dept. were inexplicably left totally out the loop for vetting intel for the Iraq invasion. It was a first, he said. Their evidence showed that Saddam was toothless but they were never asked and not in so many words told to sit down and shut up. He talked about the rogue element in the Pentagon and OSP alone having the president's ear.

He said he had been subpoenaed for the Plame case but he had nothing to offer the grand jury. He said the water cooler talk was that the Plame leak came from the VP's office but that was a second-hand rumor and certainly something that had been speculated about here for awhile.


Another interesting point he brought up is the strange insistence of the six journalists who were contacted that they must protect their source and not reveal the leaker. Well they weren't independently pursuing a story on Amb. Wilson or Plame at the time, so the shield law doesn't really apply here. They were contacted by the administration to commit at the very least a felony, if not treason. If they're not talking it's not about journalistic integrity.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-29-04 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. God I Love It When you 'splain
this stuff. Heaps of thanks. Sometimes a step back is needed to get an overall view.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-30-04 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #52
57. Well, thank you.
It's a long and complicated case. I wonder how many posts there have been on the Plame threads over the weeks and months? College students take note: your research papers on political science can be found here!
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-04 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. This is Indeed the Argument
This theory has been out there and even friends have said maybe he should be left in to face the mess he has created, in addition to the scandals that may be coming down the pike. But I don't know that we can afford the gratification of seeing him pay the piper. Four more years will completely destroy the environment, economy and our freedoms. I don't know if it would be possible to recover from four more years during our lifetime.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-29-04 08:47 AM
Response to Original message
37. William Safire is a liar.....
William Safire, apologist for Watergate and Iran-Contra, has a editorial filled with absolute lies in today's NYTimes.

His first sentence reads: "The fundamental right of Americans, through our free press, to penetrate and criticize the workings of our government is under attack as never before." Strange, because he then goes on to describe two examples of his being involved in situations where his actions were attempts to cover-up republican scandals. He is a great example of an agent of a specific agenda who works under the cover of being a media representative. See:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/29/opinion/29safi.html
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-29-04 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #37
40. No Wonder You Called Him A Liar
That is being kind. Judith Miller principled? PULEEZE! Would you say that "someone(s)" is becoming increasingly worried?
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-29-04 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
38. Funny you should mention that.
Early on in the Plame threads, I noted that there are intelligence resources who "serve" on every major media in the country.I think we see now that it is not simply that they "report" what they are told to: they make phone calls and manipulate to an extent that the public generally does not realize.]



Tales from the Crypt

The Depraved Spies and Moguls

of the CIA's Operation MOCKINGBIRD

by Alex Constantine


<snip>

In this period, the American intelligence services competed with communist activists abroad to influence European labor unions. With or without the cooperation of local governments, Frank Wisner, an undercover State Department official assigned to the Foreign Service, rounded up students abroad to enter the cold war underground of covert operations on behalf of his Office of Policy Coordination. Philip Graham,a graduate of the Army Intelligence School in Harrisburg, PA, then publisher of the Washington Post., was taken under Wisner's wing to direct the program code-named Operation MOCKINGBIRD.

"By the early 1950s," writes formerVillage Voice reporter Deborah Davis in Katharine the Great, "Wisner 'owned' respected members of the New York Times, Newsweek, CBS and other communications vehicles,plus stringers, four to six hundred in all, according to a former CIA analyst." The network was overseen by Allen Dulles, a templar for German and American corporations who wanted their points of view represented in the public print. Early MOCKINGBIRD influenced 25 newspapers and wire agencies consenting to act as organs of CIA propaganda. Many of these were already run by men with reactionary views, among them William Paley (CBS), C.D. Jackson (Fortune), Henry Luce (Time) and Arthur Hays Sulzberger (N.Y. Times).

Activists curious about the workings of MOCKINGBIRD have since been
appalled to find in FOIA documents that agents boasting in CIA office memos of their pride in having placed "important assets" inside every major news publication in the country. It was not until 1982 that the Agency openly admitted that reporters on the CIA payroll have acted as case officers to agents in the field.


www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/MOCK/mockingbird.html

Project Mockingbird the program by which news media figures were used by the CIA to spread propanada and act as intelligence agents was supposed to have been shut down after some obligatory pseudo investigation and hand wringing by the Church Committee in the 70s, but if anyone thinks that the CIA (and no doubt other intelligence agencies) would have just turned their backs and walked away from their prime propaganda distrubution outlets and a prime source of cover for their assets, I've got a really nice orange colored bridge in San Francisco I can sell you really cheap.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-29-04 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. Very good post. Thanks!
It's important to remember that it is not only a Fox News that has this influence. It's a CBS, which begs the question: who decided to "delay" the story on the forged Niger yellow cake documents, in order to run the National Guard story? It's your local newspaper from cities across the country, that may "edit" a single line in your letter to the editor, or change the context of a quote in a news story.

The IC also has resources on every college campus in the country. The power to influence our societies' perception is great, indeed.
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-29-04 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. kick n.t.
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-29-04 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Porter Goss
Will he purge CIA rank and file?

Goss didn't think that the V. Plame outing required any investigaing by Congress. Made a snide remark about a blue dress. I feel that
Tenet was fired as was Pavitt because they both finally decided not to be the patsies of the Neo Fascists any longer. This is where Goss comes in. I believe that he will do whatever the Neo Fascists order him to do.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-29-04 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. You make very good points.
And they are all extremely important. If Kerry takes the White House, I'm sure Goss will go out with Bush. But, if Bush steals the election, and Goss stays in power -- and actually gains power -- then the progressive elements in the IC will be forced out, and we will have a return of the Dulles-Hoover days.
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kohodog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-29-04 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #45
51. Can Goss kill Fitzgerald's investigation?
I wonder how much pressure Fitzgerald is under, and I bet it's intense. He's out on his own in a dangerous time. He may be the key person at the moment and may go down in history as a true patriot.

We need to work tirelessly to get the vote out and bring Kerry in. The investigation will continue either way, but I don't want to see one more day of one party rule than absolutly necessary.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-30-04 07:32 AM
Response to Reply #51
56. Good points....
Goss can't stop the investigation at this point. However, should indictments come down in any of the areas being investigated now, he would do his best to run interference as far as providing evidence in trials. I think that this was one of the most significant reasons for picking him. The administration knows that their gripe on a huge segment of the IC is weak at best, and they want to solidify it.
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-30-04 12:50 AM
Response to Original message
53. Thank you very much H20 man.
I'm one of those people who needs a concise rundown of the facts. I lived through, and watched the Watergate hearings. But sometimes it takes another kick to get the brain working. We can't afford to lose. Full steam ahead...
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-30-04 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #53
54. Watergate .....
It's kind of strange for those of us who lived through the Watergate era, and then experienced the Iran-Contra years. Sometimes I look at what is happening with Plame/Niger documents/neocon scandal, and think, "Haven't we already fought this war?" And we have. I think that is one of the reasons for the DU elders to talk openly about those two battles .... because as difficult as they were, and as much of a threat to constitutional democracy as they posed, we survived with the US Constitution intact. And that Constitution holds the key to victory in this case.
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-30-04 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #54
66. Not only that, but I have no recollection of those times.
I was 18 when Senator "Sam", Hawaii?, was presiding. And I remember some of it. But then when Reagan's reign began, I began to fully medicate myself. And the same during Iran-Contra. I have no memory of that. I am now catching up. George Bush sobered me up. I kid you not. It's a blessing. A cursed blessing. Thanks to people like you, I feel stronger. I've learned enough to be able to think, and fight back. Try as anyone may, they can never suppress the human instinct to be uncaged.
Now I can begin to spread the word.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-30-04 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. You're here now
and that is most important. I think that these threads - and many others on DU - do serve a purpose as far as helping to educate people about the political and social sciences. I am hoping that we will play a small role in helping people to be prepared for the up-coming elections, and all that follows.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-30-04 07:53 AM
Response to Original message
58. NYTimes hires Kenneth Starr (!)
I suspect any rumors that the New York Times is "liberal" will be put to rest with the announcement that they have hired Ken Starr to do battle with Patrick Fitzgerald. I'm surprised they haven't hired James Baker yet. See

http://www.nysun.com/article/4257
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-30-04 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #58
59. And who pays for this?
Novak speaks at Penn State. Yikes! See:

http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/9795089.htm
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-30-04 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #59
61. Double Yikes and Double Damned! n/t
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-30-04 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #58
60. I'll Be Damned
Do you suppose we can rely on Ken Starr's bad judgment here? Also where does Asscroft fall on this? If he's trying to subvert the Constitution etc., it would seem he would try to undo all reporter protection which would put him at odds with Ken Starr.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-30-04 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #60
62. The Constitution:
Can we find anything in the United States Constitution/Bill of Rights which spells out the protecting of confidential sources of reporters? Or is this based upon something which while perhaps related to the intention of the "free press" is rooted elsewhere? Federal court decisions would seem to indicate the idea that the US Constitution gives a blanket coverage to reporters is a myth.

If Bob Novak were driving a "get away" car for a couple bank-robbers, and he got caught and they didn't, would anyone think he had the right to protect his sources -- based on some "constitutional right" to confidentiality -- because he was writing an editorial on robbing banks? Ridiculous, you would agree? Well, Mr. Novak was the driving force in a criminal action that robbed this country of part of our national treasury. The expense of the investment needed to create "deep cover" for Plame alone is more than most bank robbers could hope for.

I say that simply because the press is trying to distort the truth about confidentiality, and about what some of these "reporters" are doing. They are NOT reporters, they are intel resources manipulating our country.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-30-04 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #62
63. Here's an example:
The press is often skillfully used to manipulate the public's perception. They can make the criminal look like the victim, and the victim look like the criminal. In this article, Debra Saunders attacks the Fitzgerald Grand Jury investigation into who leaked Plame's identity to the media.

She titles her article "The Beltway inquisition," and makes reference to a "witch-hunt." Hence, she makes her conclusion clear to the readers before she lays out her case.

Poor Debra worries about protection for government "whistle blowers." Think of that! How in the hell can you call the White House officials who exposed Plame "whistle blowers"? A whistle blower exposes a potential government crime. The officials who exposed Plame were committing a crime.

Next, she attacks Wilson, and states incorrectly that the Senate Comiittee concluded Plame "offered up" Wilson to go to Niger. This is a gross distortion of the truth. Anyone who takes a half-hour to examine this will see that Saunders is purposely lying to make the criminals look like victims, and the victims look like criminals.

Either Debra Saunders is ignorant of the truth, too stupid to recognize it when it stares her in the face, or is purposely lying to her readers. I'm convinced she's lying on purpose.

See:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/09/30/EDGB790KB41.DTL

found at news at google for Plame
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kohodog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-30-04 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #58
68. NPR has been co-opted too.
The Washington Post has been gone for years. Can we persuade the New Yorker to become a daily?!!

It was bad enough when they brought Brooks on board. I may have to cancel my subscription. I will certainly write them and bring it up as a real possibility.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-30-04 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. Many years ago,
in Ireland, there was the occupying force that out-lawed everything Irish. And one of the things that became illegal was to educate your children. One of my ancestors, who became famous in the 1798 uprising of the United Irishmen, had been what is known as a "hedge master." These were the educated Irish nationalists who taught classes along the sides of rural roads, literally hidden by the hedges.

It is unlikely that any large media source, be it tv, radio, or print, is going to report the truth to the extent that the Founding Fathers had believed when they invested energy in describing the necessity of a free press. We need to change to master change. The mainstream media has become so compromised, so corrupt, that we need to create our own "hedge schools," hidden along the side of the information highway.

Don't waste time looking to CBS, CNN, MSNBC, the NYTimes, or any of these sources for the truth. They are no more capable of producing the truth than a chicken is capable of laying an egg that hatches a puppy. We can use the media to our advantage at times, but generally that is best done in LTTE, etc.
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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-30-04 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
64. Juan Cole.

Is Justice Being Delayed by Bush Administration Politics?

Several high-profile FBI investigations, in which substantial progress have been made, may well have been put on hold by the Bush administration for political reasons. That is, it has been alleged to me that the White House may have leaned on the FBI-- not to drop the investigations but to postpone some key arrests until after the November elections.

...

It has been being leaked for many months now that the FBI believes the leak came from persons in Cheney's circle, possibly John Hannah and/or Scooter Libby. The FBI could well be ready to move in the case. But I have been told that it has orders from the White House to back off until later this fall.

There has likewise been no arrest of Franklin, though one was expected by now. This is not, as the Neoconservatives and their supporters in the press are beginning to allege, because the case against Franklin is week. Rumors are flying in Washington that the FBI found a whole cache of classified documents in his house. If this is true, it was illegal for him to keep them there. We know that the evidence against Franklin was so air tight that Franklin was turned by the FBI, and was attempting to gather incriminating evidence against other Neoconservatives on their behalf. At some point the FBI as a courtesy let Franklin's boss, Douglas Feith, know of their investigation, and apparently soon after the story was leaked to the press.

Is it possible that Franklin hasn't been charged yet not because the case is weak, but because the White House does not want to anger the powerful AIPAC lobbying organization just before an election, and does not want to risk alienating Neoconservative voters in swing states like Florida? Indeed, isn't it likely that the Franklin investigation was leaked to the press by persons in the Pentagon who feared they were under investigation, and who knew very well that such a story leaked in late August before the election would get the investigation squelched or much delayed?

posted by Juan @ 9/30/2004 06:18:24 AM






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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-30-04 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #64
65. very interesting!
The Bush administration is very well informed about the status of the various investigations. For example, when CBS was investigating the Niger forgeries, Ed Bradley attempted to interview numerous administration officials (and Goss) but was unsuccessful. This seems to indicate that they want to keep Plame/Niger forgeries/neocon scandal information both out of the courts and out of the media.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 06:11 AM
Response to Original message
70. The Debate was Great!!!
I liked when Kerry was listing Bush's "less than honest" statements to the American public included the 16 words in his state of the union speech!
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #70
71. Couldn't Watch
Too Nerve wracking. Followed the play by play on DU then voted in every available poll and sent out emails.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. President Bush
was as nerve-wracked as you! The difference is that when the debate was over, you were happy, and George wasn't.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #72
73. Good One! n/t
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. "Bush's Brain"
<<snip>>>

“In a refreshing change of pace, this week's anti-Bush documentary, "Bush's Brain," is not really about George W. Bush at all. It's about his senior political adviser, Karl Rove, who, the movie would have you believe, is Waylon Flowers to Bush's Madame.” Cont…

<<<snip>>>
“The film's boldest assertion is that Rove is the chief suspect in the CIA leak debacle of last year. He's alleged to be the person who outed the secret operative Valerie Plame to cranky columnist Robert Novak, who promptly outed her to the rest of the world. Most of the talking heads in "Bush's Brain" concur, even Plame's husband, Joseph Wilson, the career ambassador. According to the theories, Rove wanted to punish Wilson for his bruising report, which suggested that the Bush administration, in its eagerness to go to war, may have exaggerated Saddam Hussein's weapons stockpile.” Cont….

http://www.boston.com/ae/movies/articles/2004/10/01/a_juicy_look_at_a_white_house_brain/
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #74
75. Judith Miller MAY be willing to do jail time
From Over at DU:

TNOE Donating member (1000+ posts) Click to send private Fri Oct-01-04 06:18 PM
Original message
Judith Miller MAY be willing to do jail time (instead of reveal Plame leak

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/search/article_... |-8316640151689745158/181605427/6/7005/7005/7002/7002/7005/-1


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2438392


If we could do a twofer, with she and Novakula, life would be grand
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #75
76. "The Cowardly Broadcasting System"
read Mary Jacoby's article on Ed Bradley being angry, and Joseph Biden exposing Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Rice as playing a role in the Niger case. See:

http://www.independent-media.tv/item.cfm?fmedia_id=9170&fcategory_desc=Under%Reported

found at news at google for Plame
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #76
77. Ambassador Wilson speaks
with Rep. Jim Moran at the George Mason High School. See:

http://www.fcnp.com/430/draft.htm
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #77
78. White House vs CIA
Edited on Fri Oct-01-04 02:19 PM by H2O Man
interesting article by John Roberts II. See:

http://washingtontimes.com/op-ed/20040930-082915-5728r.htm
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. These Three Articles Seem To Indicate
A simmering under the surface, not unlike Mt. St. Helen's.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #79
80. As self-proclaimed
"good Christians," fellows like Bush and Cheney should know that you reap what you sow. It's a little lesson that they are going learn catechism of the grand jury proceedings. Of course, the president may pronounce it "cataclysm."
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kohodog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
81. Novak fell in the tub and broke his hip today
Anything to make of it? Coincidence or dumb luck?

Inquiring minds want to know.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-04 07:18 AM
Response to Reply #81
82. It's not uncommon for someone
his age. I noted on a number of threads discussing this that our side benefits from having him alive and the other side benefits from having him not alive. Let's hope he gets the best medical care possible.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-04 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #82
83. The Worrying Thing
about this is that until Fitzgerald squeezes him like a lemon his "faculties"are needed. I have seen elderly folks who have fallen like this, breaking their hips, take the fast track into senility.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-04 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #83
84. exactly.
It may also lessen the chances of a judge using the threat of jail time to pressure him to tell the truth. We are coming into some interesting days and weeks now. I'm thinking that John Edwards might be preparing to make mention of the scandals that VP Cheney is involved in during the great debate on Tuesday. Edwards is indeed an agent of truth who advocates for a healthy American society.

You know, it's funny: I was speaking last night to the Lakota elder I mentioned in the first post on this latest Plame thread, about how we have had closely related versions of this same contest between good and evil in our national politics .... with Watergate and Iran-Contra, etc. And it struck me that it's much like an infection. If a doctor prescribes an antibiotic, and you stop taking it after yoiu feel a little better, that infection will mutate and come back, and be that much harder to treat.

And that's what happened: with Watergate, the American system stopped taking the correct steps, and the infection mutated. It became Iran-Contra, and was that much harder to treat. Again, once we started to feel better, we stopped.... and now we have mutant neocons infecting our political body. We need to have the full treatment to wipe them out. And people like Edwards, Kerry, and like Wilson and Fitzgerald know this.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-04 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #84
85. To This Day There are People Who Should Know Better Who Say
what happened with Plame is of no consequence. We all know how Porter Goss feels. Last night I saw T. Carlson blow this off big time when Bill M. brought it up. It's like certain people have brain fever. They can't seem to get their minds around the danger here. Not that I have any expectations of Carlson, he knows *ush is a loser yet he still can't vote for Kerry. I don't think he's a neo plant as he's always been against the war but these pugs just don't get how bad their people have been and how much damage they've done. I'm sure it's more a matter of, head in the sand, not wanting to know. Otherwise they would have to do something. Of course there is also the possibility he's an asset for the conservative side of the agency. who surely must be aware of the potential for a meltdown here. By the way, as far as the hardliners go, where does their loyalty lie, with the agency, the party or WH?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-04 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #85
86. Tell me what context you are
intending with the word "hardliners"?
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-04 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #86
87. The Conservative Faction
as opposed to the progressives. I think what am I am asking is this: we surmise that P. Goss will fight to have the Plame investigation "downplayed", are there others within the agency like him? I know he is an outsider but are there those within whose loyalties lie elsewhere than within the agency? You spoke of potential of the Dulles era coming back if *ush stays in office. So does ideology come first no matter what, even if one's own is betrayed in the process?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-04 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #87
88. In any and every agency,
the people at the top set the tone. It doesn't matter if we are discussing a city agency, a state agency, or a federal agency. I'm not being disrespectful to the people within the bureaucracy, but it's the leaders that set the tone.

For example, there were progressive people within the FBI when Hoover ruled. But they were "exiled" to insignificant positions if they didn't cow to his madness.

There are good men and women in the Department of Justice. But if they don't cow to Ashcroft's madness, they will not be given the opportunity to move ahead. No chance of being listened to or taken seriously at that staff meeting -- much less promoted when there is a brown-nosing person who joins the Attorney General's prayer meetings looking to take that same promotion.

Goss will not openly try to hurt any Plame-related trials. No, it will be the subtle things, like not acting on requests for information, or refusing to included needed documents in the name of "national security."

Any time you bring in a political appointee to run an agency, that appointee is being brought in for the sole purpose of doing the appointer's will. We know, for example, that VP Cheney spent many hours at CI HQ, pressuring analysts to "interpret" Iraq information in a way that favored the administration's call to invade Iraq. So we know exactly what this administration wants out of the IC.

Does this make sense? Does it answer your question?
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-04 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #88
89. It Does Make Sense
But what I'd also like to know is, if, during the tenure of any head, there are rogues who operate according to their own agenda? For example, Kerry gets in, Goss goes, would there still be people within that would try to downplay Fitz's investigation and hold it up because of their loyalties, or would they have already been sent to the basement? Also, are there those, not political appointees, within the "structure" who favor the neo-con approach and would slant their work to that end? It goes without saying that were that so the reverse would be true also. I'm not trying to impugn the majority of people who work there with their aim being a good job, well done, however they may vote in their private lives.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-04 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #89
90. Yes.
Again, in every bureaucracy/agency, there are folks who do their job according to their belief system. The leaders set the tone, but every person within an agency is responsible for their own actions. In a huge agency or department, there are folks at the 3rd and 4th tiers who have significant power. The unfortunate thing is that bureaucratic systems too often allow for individuals with agendas to do more negative/harm than positive/good.

Just one example of a potential to do harm: I mentioned Hoover. In his day, the "dirt" he collected on people wasn't often reported. But think about today's world. Someone in a position to create problems could easily, well.... drop dime to a Bob Novak "resource," knowing full well that they can harm people with the media.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-04 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #90
91. Gotcha
so what this means is that even under a Kerry administration we will have to keep pushing this forward?

Also, here is an article from the New York Post which states that the Times' journalists are not above the law. Don't care for their overall viewpoint because it's very anti-Plame and anti-Wilson, and they don't have the story on that end or their facts straight. This may be pure spite aimed at their rival, so it is galling that they are one of the few papers who have this point of view.

THE PRESS IS NOT ABOVE THE LAW

<<<snip>>>
"The paper's attitude is that journalists must be exempted from any investigation: In other words, get the bad guys — but leave us out of it.

Now, under normal circumstances journalists have a responsibility to protect their sources; failing to do so could compromise their ability to do their jobs properly.

But to demand that this right be absolute — even to the point of impeding an investigation into what may have been a serious crime involving national security in time of war — takes intellectual arrogance to new levels.

Arrogance of the sort Americans increasingly have rejected.

Frankly, we've had our doubts all along about the Plame controversy, mired — as it has been from the start — in "get the president" politics.

But now that a full-fledged criminal investigation is under way, as Bush's critics — including those in the news media — demanded, journalists have an obligation to cooperate with it.

They're citizens, too — though many too often forget that fact.

They need to be reminded."


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=106&ncid=742&e=18&u=/nypost/20040929/cm_nypost/thepressisnotabovethelaw


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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-04 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #91
92. Well Here We Go...
“New CIA Director Makes Changes at Top

By KATHERINE PFLEGER SHRADER
Associated Press Writer

“WASHINGTON (AP) -- New CIA Director Porter Goss has replaced the agency's No. 3 official and made several other changes as he closes his first week on the job.

Goss announced Thursday that Michael Kostiw will replace A.B. "Buzzy" Krongard as the agency's executive director. Kostiw, a former vice president at ChevronTexaco, previously served in the CIA for roughly a decade and ran unsuccessfully for Congress in 1986.” Cont….

>>>snip>>>
A former Republican congressman from Florida, Goss has also tapped three former aides from the House Intelligence Committee to join him at the CIA's Langley, Va., headquarters. Goss chaired the panel for almost eight years, stepping down when he was nominated by President Bush in August.

A U.S. official said the committee's staff director, Patrick Murray, will become chief of staff to Goss. The official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, said Merrell Moorhead and Jay Jakub will also become senior advisers to Goss. Their positions are new to the agency.” Cont….

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/C/CIA_PERSONNEL_CHANGES?SITE=NYSTA&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-04 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #92
93. Well !!!
If that isn't exactly what we were just discussing!
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kohodog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-04 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #93
96. The fact that Goss was approved by such a great margin in the Senate
speaks to the virulence of the infection you mentioned earlier. Those inside (pols) do not have the perspective that we have. We are on the outside and can have more objectivity so long as we are not blinded by our own agenda. They are more willing to give an associate and friend the nod.

Another benefit to the Kerry win will be his (Goss') replacement.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #96
97. Yes, very important point.....
Goss being confirmed shows that the Senate is suffering from an infection that has reduced it's ability to function as it should. It's as if the congress has lost the ability to serve as an immune system, to protect the body of America from the infectious Bush2 disease.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #97
98. There are a couple of articles
listed for today under the news at google for Plame. Both are examples of the press being skillfully used to create the false impression that the criminal is a victim, and the victim is the criminal. One is a repeat of an earlier editorial by Debra Saunders; in Washington, if a lie is twice told it is accepted as a foundation of truth. The other is a short blurb that totally ignores the truth, and relies on mere insult to avoid a serious examination of the important issues involved in the case. See:

http://pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/opinion/archive/s_257515.html
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-04-04 06:31 AM
Response to Reply #98
99. Bush & Iraq: Follow the Yellow Cake Road
an interesting, older TIME article by Tony Karon. See:

http://www.time.com/time/columnist/karon/article/0,9565,463779,00.htm
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kohodog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-04 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #84
94. Great point!
And history has a way of repeating itself.

I hope you're right about Kerry and Edwards. I tend to think that they may start to turn things around but that ultimately the corporate influence needs to be eradicated by others. I believe that corporate influence and money is the source of the infection, and in that sense Kerry and Edwards are already infected. Even so, maybe they can see that strong medicine is required, but I have yet to see the issue of campaign finance be raised. Dean may have shown the way. I'd like to see a system that is democratic and inclusive and truly limits corporate influence. (But what will all the lobbyists do?)
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-04-04 06:50 AM
Response to Original message
100. 10 Questions for Cheney....
The Nation notes that Dick Cheney has been hidden for 4 years, and thus has not had to answer any serious questions in this campaign season. (#5 is on Plame) See:

http://www.thenation.com/thebeat/index.mhtml?bid=1&pid=1874
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-04-04 06:53 AM
Response to Reply #100
101. "Are soldiers and others dying for empty campaign slogans?"
"Now, Novak is a scoundrel in my book. It was he who made the treasonous announcement that Valerie Plame is a spy." Read what Novak says his White House sources say about the Bush plan for Iraq. See:

http://www.opednews.com/williamsDon_100404.htm
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-04-04 06:55 AM
Response to Reply #101
102. Reporters forced to fight for their sources
David Usborne spreads lies and misinformation in England. See:

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/media/story.jsp?story=568637
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-04-04 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #102
104. Grrrrrr! n/t
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-04-04 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #104
106. This Guy Is Not Just A Liar
He's an arrogant liar. Whose lapdog is he?


William Safire: Free press under attack
William Safire, New York Times
October 4, 2004 SAFIRE1

http://www.startribune.com/stories/1519/5011518.html
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-04-04 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #106
107. Guess!!??!!
Like so many faces in the crowd of Bush supporters, William Safire is a fellow member of the Nixon administration. He was a speech-writer to jumped ship as Watergate ripened. Shocking, eh?
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-04-04 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #107
108. OF COURSE!
says I smacking myself in the forehead. Naturally he could care less about doing 2 such articles in about a week, as long as he parrots the company line. And why should he have scruples? He has helped these traitors before, it comes naturally to him.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-05-04 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #108
109. Maybe S**ire Should Read This...
Should The Fact that the Source Committed a Crime Make a Difference?

<<<snip>>>
In addition to the issues they raise about sources' waivers of confidentiality, these two scandals have another commonality, too: Both seem to involve crimes committed either by the sources themselves - or by the sources' own sources.

In the Plame scandal, those who intentionally leaked her identity are by definition criminals - as long as they knew she was not only a CIA agent, but a covert agent, which should have been obvious.cont…

<<<snip>>>
As I discussed in a prior column, some may reasonably answer yes. When a confidential source makes a reporter not only his protector, but his accomplice, he may be violating the source-reporter trust.

Moreover, when a source is contacting numerous reporters to try to get the word out, in order to serve his own political objectives, one could reasonably question if the source's communications truly deserve the term "confidential." This seems to have plainly been the case with the Plame leakers. It might also have been the case with the National Guard documents cont…



http://writ.news.findlaw.com/hilden/20041005.html



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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-04-04 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #101
103. "Death to Songbirds & Ancient Forests"
So sadly true! I saw K. Melman on Cap Gang Sat. night and he said Novakula was wrong about withdrawal, didn't know where he got the info.
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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-04-04 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #100
105. good list
I hope we get a few of them tomorrow night...
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-06-04 08:52 AM
Response to Original message
110. George W. Bush: We can't afford security (mentions Plame case)
George W. Bush: We can't afford security
10/04/2004 ¡X
<<snip>>
That's an important non-proliferation effort going unfunded. Taken in conjunction with other failures, such as the administration's non-fucntional policies toward North Korea and Iran, its acceptance of the ceremonial wrist-slap administered by Pakistan to A.Q. Khan, the leading nuclear weapons scientitst in the country and for two decades the heart of a proliferation black market and even its outing of CIA proliferations agent Valerie Plame, the failure to fund and aggressively pursue the state department's effort to prevent scientists with banned weapons know-how from seeking employment elsewhere in the world indicates that the administration either doesn't understand or doesn't care about the threat that weapons proliferation in general and those instances in particular pose to our country and the world.

From the president's response to John Kerry's littany of overlooked security issues, it's clear that in those cases and in the case of the effort to find decent work for Iraq's weapons industry scientitsts, the administration has quite frankly placed tax cuts targeted to wealthy individuals ahead of our national security.

Not even the biggest beneficiary of those tax cuts should support such a deal. What good is a tax cut if it so weakens the country that you don't get to enjoy it?

Until Iraq headed so obviously south that it became impossible to ignore, a common refrain among journalists and pundits was that attacking George Bush's national security credentials would be suicide because that's the arena in which he is perceived to be strongest. That he was as inveterate a screwup in that field as he has been in every other substantive endeavor was irrelevant; people wouldn't like it if that perception was disturbed even if by reality.
<<snip>>

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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-06-04 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #110
111. KICK
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-06-04 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
112. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-06-04 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #112
113. alien lizard lover or idiot lover?








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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-06-04 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #112
114. Good luck.
Not sure why a republican would be offended by the Plame threads.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-06-04 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #114
115. Israel Planning An Attack On Iran?
The day after the election which they're figuring the Tush will win

http://rense.com/general58/iran.htm
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-06-04 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #115
116. Gordon Thomas has written some good stuff
Edited on Wed Oct-06-04 09:11 PM by seemslikeadream
Dec 2 2002
New claim on tycoon's mystery death
By Gordon Thomas And Martin Dillon

The Mirror

"But now, after two and a half years of investigative journalism, we believe we have unearthed the true story of Maxwell's death and can reveal how he was murdered by the Israeli secret service, Mossad.
Our work, supported by documents, including FBI reports and secret intelligence files from behind the Iron Curtain, shows Maxwell had worked as a secret super spy for Mossad for six years.

The Czech-born millionaire and former Labour MP died the way he had lived - threatening. He had threatened his wife. Threatened his children. Threatened the staff of this newspaper.But finally he issued one threat too many - he threatened Mossad. He told them that unless they gave him £400million to save his crumbling empire, he would expose all he had done for them."...............

In that time, he had free access to Margaret Thatcher's Downing Street, to Ronald Reagan's White House, to the Kremlin and to the corridors of power throughout Europe.

On top of that he had built himself a position of power within the crime families of eastern Europe, teaching them how to funnel their vast wealth from drugs, arms smuggling and prostitution to banks in safe havens around the globe.

MAXWELL passed on all the secrets he learned to Mossad in Tel Aviv. In turn, they tolerated his excesses, vanities and insatiable appetite for a luxurious lifestyle and women.He told his controllers who they should target and how they should do it. He appointed himself as Israel's unofficial ambassador to the Soviet Bloc. Mossad saw the advantage in that.Having learned many of the key secrets of the Soviet empire, Maxwell was given his greatest chance to be a super spy.Mossad had stolen from America the most important piece of software in the US arsenal. Maxwell was given the job of marketing the stolen software, called Promis.Mossad had reconstructed the software and inserted into it a device which enabled them to track the use any purchaser made of the it.Sitting in Israel, Mossad would know exactly what was going on inside all the intelligence services that bought it. In all, Maxwell sold it to 42 countries, including China and Soviet Bloc nations. But his greatest triumph was selling it to Los Alamos, the very heart of the US nuclear defence system.

More
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=12419168&method=full&siteid=50143


Riddle As U.S. Spy Chief Quits

July 6, 2003
**Gordon Thomas: Exclusive**

Sunday Express AMERICA'S top spy catcher, Paul Redmond, has suddenly resigned in the middle of his secret investigation into how Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden allegedly obtained US computer software, the SUNDAY EXPRESS claimed this weekend.

The software is said to enable the two most wanted men in the world to avoid capture because it can pinpoint every move in the global manhunt.

Redmond's departure last week was accepted "without discussion" by President Bush, the man who had brought the spy catcher out of retirement to conduct the investigation.

Hours after Redmond had cleared his desk, Bush ordered a GBP 25million bounty on Saddam's head. He wants Saddam "dead or alive" and the same goes for bin Laden. Already Bush has agreed to either man forgoing a trial and being shot after interrogation. The official reason given for Redmond's abrupt departure was "health reasons." But stunned colleagues in the Homeland Security department in Washington, where Redmond had his office, insist the former Associate Director of the CIA was in perfect health. His departure has led to intense speculation that he may have begun to uncover embarrassing details of how the software came into the hands of Saddam and bin Laden.

Documents obtained by the respected International Currency Review, a London-based newsletter for the financial community, allege that the software was provided for Saddam on the authority of President Bush's father when he was in the White House - a time when relations between Iraq and Washington were close during Baghdad's war with Iran. The Review's publisher, Christopher Story, a former financial adviser to Lady Thatcher, said: "The documents are extremely sensitive and raise some very serious questions."
more
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4025.htm

CIA Accused Of Bank Heist

Shortly before U.S. forces began streaming across the Iraqi border, commencing Persian Gulf War II, the CIA and the Department of Defense, with a little help from Israel and some Europeans, pulled off a massive bank heist in Iraq to the tune of several billion dollars.

By Gordon Thomas

The CIA and the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) are accused by International Currency Review, the London-based journal, of mounting a joint ultra-secret operation to electronically remove an estimated $10 billion out of the Iraqi Central Bank hours before the start of Persian Gulf War II. The whereabouts of the money is not known.

“We believe it is in a secret CIA fund which will be used to mount further special services operations, such as tracking down Saddam Hussein,” said the Review’s publisher, Christopher Story.

Story is a former financial advisor to Lady Thatcher when she was Britain’s prime minister. In the past 10 years, he has testified before several congressional committees dealing with financial scandals.

DIA coordinates all intelligence for the Joint Chiefs of Staff. It is headquartered in the Pentagon.

The report is titled “The Great Robbery of the Central Bank of Iraq.” It has been sent to finance ministers of leading nations, the World Bank, the Bank of England and heads of all other major banks.

The report is bound to cause huge embarrassment to President Bush after he signed an executive order on March 23, ordering a worldwide hunt for the hidden assets of Saddam Hussein and his family.

The Review claims that using skilled hackers recruited by the DIA and key Iraqi bank officials who had been bribed to provide secret access codes to the Central Bank’s accounts for Saddam Hussein and his family, the money was transferred out of the bank in a high-tech operation.
http://www.americanfreepress.net/Bank_Heist.html


Proof of Trillions in Bu$h Family Business With Saddam 1989-1991
author: Gordon Thomas
The Bush family were doing business with Saddam Hussein from 1989 up to months before the outbreak of the first Gulf War.

In a document obtained by the respected London-based International Currency Review, it was claimed that after a year long investigation, it had uncovered evidence “of the mobilisation of trillions of dollars in 1989-91”. The document names a number of banks it alleges were “supervised by the Bush Sr White House” in the transactions


Business links – involving “the mobilisation of trillions of dollars” – by President Bush’s father and his brother Neil, were under investigation by America’s top spy catcher, Paul Redmond, when he resigned.

A well-placed Washington intelligence source said that Redmond quit after a White House meeting with Vice President Dick Cheney and Attorney General John Ashcroft.

They are known as “The Enforcers” – ensuring there is no taint on the reputation of the increasingly embattled President with the failure to find any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

Already, said the Washington source, the two men have ensured Bush distances himself from Tony Blair’s claims that the weapons will be found.

But equally Downing Street will want to stay clear of the allegation that the President’s family were doing business with Saddam from 1989 up to months before the outbreak of the first Gulf War.

In a document obtained by the respected London-based International Currency Review, it was claimed that after a year long investigation, it had uncovered evidence “of the mobilisation of trillions of dollars in 1989-91”.

The document names a number of banks it alleges were “supervised by the Bush Sr White House” in the alleged transactions.

The banks identified in the document include the British Royal Family bankers, Coutts; Morgan Guaranty Trust and Chase Manhattan, New York; Banco Exterior de Espana, Spain; First International Bank of Denver in the United States.

“What will cause astonishment is the provenance of some of these compromising documents. For many months we considered carefully whether they could be forgeries, and whether it could be credible that an intelligence organisation or a private gang of blackmailers and counterfeiters could replicate the precise behaviour of an obsolescent IBM computer to produce output identical to those images shown with this analysis. We checked these possibilities repeatedly with experts and also consulted banking sources to see whether these documents could possibly be fraudulent. The outcome of these investigations was unequivocally that the documentation is genuine.”

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/07/268817.shtml






The CIA and Its Secret Experiments

with MKULTRA & Germ Warfare.

America’s Great State Secret

by

Gordon Thomas

(Author of Seeds of Fire: China And The Story Behind The Attack On America)

MINDFIELD

· Sensational never-seen-before documents from inside the White House, CIA and other agencies.

· Reveals the documentary evidence that links US Vice-President Dick Cheney and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld to the cover-up of the death of top CIA scientist, Frank Olson.



· Explains how the CIA financed a ruthless and systematic assault of the human psyche – using a British-born psychiatrist to spearhead the assault.

· Names other world renowned physicians who were involved in the most sinister research programme ever created by any United States government – and its secret partner – the British government.

· Reveals how a woman was programmed to become a CIA assassin.

· Describes how a CIA chemist was murdered by his own colleagues after he had turned to the one man he thought he could trust – a London psychiatrist engaged in similar work.

· Reveals how “expendables” – the CIA generic name for those selected for killing – were secretly murdered after they had been experimented on in Europe.

· Describes how the CIA used prostitutes and mental patients in other experiments.

· Explains how the CIA deliberately pioneered the drug culture whose effects are still with us.

· Reveals how the CIA agent selected to monitor the experiments eventually died at the hands of a physician steeped in the methods perfected by the CIA.

· Identifies how the CIA experiments are still carried on in secret establishments in Israel and China.

· Uncovers CIA terminal experiments on Vietcong prisoners in Vietnam.

· Publishes the CIA Manual of Assassination – a shocking document describing how to commit state-approved murder.

“Meticulously researched, Mindfield is a deeply disturbing story of hideous government experiments using drugs and behavioural modification. Teaching hospitals on both sides of the Atlantic were used. Many of the doctors who performed those experiments remain in high office today and still conduct those experiments with impunity. Mindfield is a terrifying warning how easy it is for elected governments to sanction secret experiments to control human behaviour. Gordon Thomas has meticulously taken us from incredulity to awareness of the Machiavellian lengths our governments go to in our unsuspecting name. This remarkable book is essential reading for all those in a trusted role to care for people. In every sense it is an outstanding text that reveals the darker side of medicine.”

Professor Anne White
M.C.S.P. Bsc M.D. F.R.C.P.A.
Assistant Clinical Professor of Medicine
Department of Psychiatry
McMaster University, Canada

http://www.gordonthomas.ie/mindfield.htm

Spies, Lies & Sneaky Guys: Espionage and Intelligence"

Paul Redmond is an internationally recognized authority on security, counterespionage, and counterintelligence, with hands-on experience throughout Western and Eastern Europe, Southeast Asia and the Former Soviet Union.

Mr. Redmond is a member of the Technical Advisory Group to the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, and a Consultant to the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence. He serves on the Steering Committee of the Crime and Loss Prevention Institute, Northeastern University College of Criminal Justice.

During his thirty-year tenure at the Central Intelligence Agency, Mr. Redmond managed the CIA’s extensive counterintelligence organization, and counseled three succeeding Directors of Central Intelligence on highly sensitive counterintelligence matters, including technical and personnel security concerns. He established and built productive working relationships with NATO and with foreign intelligence and security chiefs worldwide. Redmond oversaw the counterintelligence aspects of personnel, computer systems and physical plants in the U.S. and abroad, and supervised the support provided by the CIA to the private sector relating to commercial counterespionage. He was instrumental in the apprehension of Aldrich Ames.
http://www.sabatiergroup.com/redmond.html



Paul Redmond, who headed counterintelligence for the CIA, was appointed to the U.S. Department of Homeland Security after meeting UD students in the Global Agenda series.

http://www.udel.edu/global/agenda/2003/gallery.html



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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-06-04 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #116
117. The Plot Thickens
Boy this stuff is unbelievable. So Maxwell was behind the theft of Promis? Will the Bushes ever be burned?
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #117
118. "Background man they call 'co-president'"

<<<snip>>>

“Rove has always denied he was behind such smears but many continue to believe otherwise. His political foes await the results of the investigation into the Plame case with interest, privately hoping it will prove his undoing” cont…...


“Others question whether he really holds such power over Bush, who has been known to call him to heel at times. Either way, the president's other nickname for Rove is telling. He sometimes calls his chief political adviser "Turd Blossom", after the Texan flower that flourishes in cowpats”. <<<snip>>>


http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/story.jsp?story=569648
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #118
119. Judith Miller Held In Contempt
Hogan will hold off on jail until her appeal.

http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/wire/sns-ap-cia-leak,0,4085316.story?coll=sns-ap-politics-headlines

She must really be guilty if she won't give it up because we know she has no principles to protect.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-04 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #119
120. Novak never has said whether he has been subpoenaed.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #120
123. It seems that he
most likely will be the last person from the media that gets served.
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 08:30 AM
Response to Original message
121. Reporter for Times Is Facing Jail Time
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/08/politics/08leak.html?pagewanted=print&position=
<<snip>>
Oct 8, 2004
By ADAM LIPTAK

WASHINGTON, Oct. 7 - A federal judge held a reporter for The New York Times in contempt of court on Thursday for refusing to name her sources to prosecutors investigating the disclosure of the identity of a covert C.I.A. agent. The reporter, Judith Miller, published no articles about the agent, Valerie Plame. Even so, the judge, Thomas F. Hogan, of United States District Court in Washington, ordered her jailed for as long as 18 months, noting that she had contemplated writing such an article and had conducted interviews for it. Judge Hogan suspended the sanction until a planned appeal is concluded, and he released Ms. Miller on her own recognizance.

"We have a classic confrontation between competing interests," Judge Hogan said, speaking from the bench. "Miss Miller is acting in good faith, doing her duty as a respected and established reporter who believes reporters have a First Amendment privilege that trumps the right of the government to inquire into her sources." But Ms. Miller was mistaken, Judge Hogan ruled. "Miss Miller has no right to decline to answer these questions," he said. The investigation seeks to determine who told the syndicated columnist Robert Novak and other journalists that Ms. Plame was a C.I.A. official. A 1982 law makes it a crime to disclose the identities of undercover agents in some circumstances. Ms. Miller spoke briefly at the hearing, affirming that she would indeed refuse to answer questions about confidential communications.

Speaking to reporters outside the courthouse afterward, she said: "I'm very disappointed that I've been found in contempt of court for an article I never wrote and The Times never published. I find it truly frightening that journalists can be put in jail for doing their jobs." According to an earlier decision in the case, Ms. Miller conducted reporting about Ms. Plame and her husband, Joseph C. Wilson IV, a former diplomat. She contemplated writing an article, Judge Hogan wrote, but she never did. The investigation has its roots in an Op-Ed article Mr. Wilson wrote for The Times in July 2003. It was critical of a justification offered by the Bush administration for the war in Iraq.

Ms. Plame's identity was disclosed by Mr. Novak in his column eight days later. "Two senior administration officials," Mr. Novak wrote, identified Ms. Plame as "an agency operative on weapons of mass destruction." They spoke, he suggested in the column, in reaction to "the fire storm" that Mr. Wilson ignited. The federal appeals court here is likely to hear arguments in Ms. Miller's case in November, her lawyers said. The case has been put on a fast track, and a decision could come by the end of the year or in January. At the hearing Thursday, a prosecutor, Jim Fleissner, cited Branzburg v. Hayes, a 1972 Supreme Court case that, he said, required reporters to answer questions from grand juries about their confidential sources. The special counsel in the Plame investigation, Patrick J. Fitzgerald, had moved methodically and deferentially, Mr. Fleissner added, turning to journalists as a last resort.
<<snip>>
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #121
122. Question for H2O -- why is this still an issue?
Is it a delay tactic? Just whose side is Ms. Miller on?

Judge Hogan made it clear long ago that reporters would have to testify. Why does it benefit them to refuse? Or rather, who does it benefit for them to refuse?

I don't think Judith Miller really feels as if she needs to protect her "source." Her source is already well known. All they are asking for is corroboration. So what gives?

What is this chick up to?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #122
124. Judith Miller is from the dark side.
Briefly, her situation has to be viewed in the larger context. Franklin, the neocon caught passing information to the Israeli front has decided not to accept the plea deal being offered by prosecutors. One might suspect that he was pressured by the neocons in the administration to hold out, and slow the process, and to expect a "re-elected" Bush administration to run interference or grant a pardon. We'll get a better idea if he is arrested in the next 10 days.

Judith is an asset. She "works" as a reporter, but is actually an asset for another interest. You can't serve two masters, and I do not think she should be considered a reporter. I will admit that I am not entirely objective about her: I think that she belongs in jail. And I resent her abusing the protections that most of us believe the press needs in order to protect whistle-blowers.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #124
125. Opps! I find her so offensive
that I didn't really answer your question. Miller, like Franklin, is trying to slow the pace of the large, three-prong scandal that will discredit this administration, and result in numerous convictions in criminal court in the up-coming years. She does not care in the least for the dignity of a "free press." She is merely using delaying tactics.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #125
126. he specializes, not in espionage cases, but in high profile scandals
.....

Franklin was previously reported as having been "turned" by the FBI, giving them information in exchange for the promise of leniency when it comes time to file charges, but that now appears to have changed. According to the Los Angeles Times, Franklin has rejected a proposed deal in which he would plead guilty to some of the charges, dismissed his court-appointed lawyer, and is now represented by Plato Cacheris, who defended convicted spies Robert Hanssen and Aldrich Ames.

When Cacheris took up the case of Ana Belen Montes, Castro's top spy in the United States, neoconservative writer Ronald Radosh argued that he "seems to be the chosen counsel for most of the recent American spies for foreign powers." But this misses the real point to be made about the Washington super-lawyer: he specializes, not in espionage cases, but in high profile scandals, the kind that make mile-high headlines. From Watergate (he represented Attorney General John Mitchell) to Iran-Contra (he got Fawn Hall immunity in exchange for her testimony) to Lewinsky-gate (he was one of Monica's attorneys), one thing is clear: the spotlight is his natural habitat – yet another indication that the Franklin affair, which seems to have dropped into the black hole of journalistic memory, is going to resurface big time.

The Franklin case is a byproduct of a two-year investigation: law enforcement was routinely listening in on a conversation between two high-ranking AIPAC employees and Israeli officials when they stumbled on Franklin's treason. The story was deliberately leaked, not by the FBI, but by parties who were interested in prematurely forcing the whole investigation out into the open – giving the Israelis involved time to flee the country, and others an opportunity to destroy evidence and take cover. Franklin's stonewalling, and apparent decision to fight – "Any charge of espionage will be met with fierce resistance," says Cacheris – is a challenge to the FBI to either put up or shut up.

"It looks like there is going to be a battle," said a source cited by the Times. It can't be long now before charges are filed, and the story of how Israel infiltrated the highest echelons of the Pentagon's policy shop – where Franklin works as an Iran specialist – comes out in lurid detail.

With a month to go until the election, the exposure of AIPAC as the vital conduit through which Israeli moles in the government passed sensitive information to Israel is so politically explosive that it's no wonder the White House handed the case to a compliant political appointee and told investigators to "slow down," according to the Financial Times. But it looks like Franklin has single-handedly nixed that plan.

This is one "October surprise" that would benefit neither Bush nor Kerry – the former because of the laxness it reveals in the inner councils of his own administration, and the latter on account of his utter cowardice and unwillingness to even address the issue.

As we begin to ask questions about who lied us into war, and why; as we trace the fabrications, the forgeries, the phony "intelligence" back to the original source, in the context of the hardest-fought presidential election in recent memory – and a war that we appear to be losing – the implications of the Franklin-AIPAC espionage case are so hot as to be nearly radioactive. Neither candidate is willing to touch it. But Franklin, in an effort to save his own skin, may have forced the issue onto the table.

more
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=3727
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #126
128. Thank you for that article seemslikeadream -- it is a good one eom
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coeur_de_lion Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-04 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #125
127. Thanks H, for the explanation, or rather the confirmation.
Judith Miller lies big time -- pretty much this is all I need to know.

But another question was not answered -- why is this still an issue? Why in bloody hell does Hogan allow the appeals process and the delay and subterfuge to continue? Does he have no power to stop the delays?
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-04 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #127
129. So I've Been Listening To Legal Pundits Talk About Martha Stewart
and how she's gone to jail for lying about a stock transaction that the government concedes was legal.

So do we know if any of those rats in the WH actually lied to investigators? After all, as has been stated here and elsewhere, too many times to count, it's the cover-up that'll get ya. And what about the reporters, do we know if any of them tried to lie, or is that still to be determined?
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-04 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #129
130. A Sideways Kick
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-04 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #130
131. So Did He Or Didn't He?
Or is the Times just blowing smoke up our...noses... as a subterfuge? And what are the chances Congress will take this up.

<<<snip>>>
"NEW YORK: Two extraordinary stories on the Valerie Plame/Robert Novak legal case appeared in the Sunday edition of The New York Times.. One suggested that the mysterious Novak has, in fact, testified before a grand jury. The other piece, perhaps unprecedented, was co-authored by Arthur O. Sulzberger, Jr., the paper's publisher, and Russell T. Lewis, chief executive of The New York Times Company. Cont...

But as concerned as they are with Miller's loss of liberty, "there are even bigger issues at stake for us all," they write. "The press simply cannot perform its intended role if its sources of information, particularly information about the government, are cut off."
<<<snip>>>

http://www.mediainfo.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000663360

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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-04 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #131
132. Excellent Article in LA Times
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kohodog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-04 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #121
133. Today's Opinion piece in the Times regarding Miller.
Edited on Sun Oct-10-04 10:09 PM by kohodog
Obviously they're pro Miller, but still had an interesting point. In their investigations, the Feds may have looked at phone records that dealt with isseus other than the Plame outing. This could be a problem for true whistle blowers. The article goes on to talk about State laws and how they've dealt with the issue of journalists' confidentiality.

snip

A quarter of a century ago, a New York Times reporter, Myron Farber, was ordered to jail, also for doing his job and refusing to give up confidential information. He served 40 days in a New Jersey prison cell. In response to this injustice, the New Jersey Legislature strengthened its "shield law," which recognizes and serves to protect a journalist's need to protect sources and information. Although the federal government has no shield law, the vast majority of states, as well as the District of Columbia, have by now put in place legal protections for reporters. While many of these laws are regarded as providing an "absolute privilege" for journalists, others set out a strict test that the government must meet before it can have a reporter thrown into jail. Perhaps it is a function of the age we live in or perhaps it is something more insidious, but the incidence of reporters being threatened with jail by the federal government is on the rise.

To reverse this trend, to give meaning to the guarantees of the First Amendment and to thereby strengthen our democracy, it is now time for Congress to follow the lead of the states and enact a federal shield law for journalists. Without one, reporters like Judy Miller may be imprisoned. More important, the public will be in the dark about the actions of its elected and appointed government officials. That is not what our nation's founders had in mind.

snip


So maybe we need Federal legislation to define the parameters. It is a complex issue and today's environment we must be very careful to protect the rights of tghose who can shine the light on the corruption and incompetence of those in power at any time in our past, present and future.

edited: spelling

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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-04 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #133
134. Kick Novakula's Butt Kick!
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-04 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #134
135. Target Dick Cheney: The Sociopath Uncorked

by Jeffrey Steinberg

When Sen. John Edwards mentioned the forbidden "H word"—"Halliburton"—during the Oct. 5 Vice Presidential debate, Dick Cheney's knuckles turned white and the Vice President seethed with his now all-too-familiar sociopathological rage. While Senator Edwards failed to push Cheney's buttons to the point that the Veep might have uncorked with a barrage of his signature "F words," in every other respect, Cheney made it clear, in words and gestures, that his cynical disregard for the truth, and his obsession with waging war against the rest of the world, has not been tempered by a spate of highly public revelations that his Iraq war, and war on terrorism have been, to date, abysmal failures, which have isolated the United States from virtually every former ally.

Cheney also remains a prime target of a string of criminal investigations, involving forged documents, corporate bribes, trading with the enemy, leaks of classified material, and widespread corruption in Iraq no-bid reconstruction contracts. All of these scandals, for the moment, remain under the public radar screen. However, should any one of them surface on the eve of the elections, Cheney's corruption could prove to be the decisive factor that sends George W. packing on Nov. 2.

There is growing evidence that the White House spin machine has been working overtime to keep those scandals out of the public spotlight. A recently planned segment of CBS "60 Minutes," on the origins of forged Niger government documents purporting to prove that Saddam Hussein's Iraq was seeking yellowcake uranium from that African state, was cancelled after Karl Rove and other top White House officials practically threatened to blackball CBS from access to the Administration if the network aired the story, several sources reported to EIR. According to several Congressional and intelligence community sources, an ongoing federal grand jury probe into the Niger documents has traced them to Ahmed Chalabi's Iraqi National Congress. Top Pentagon civilians, all linked to Cheney's chief of staff Lewis Libby, have been reportedly implicated in the document hoax, along with self-professed "universal fascist" Michael Ledeen.

Sources report that the White House squeeze play on CBS has been matched by Attorney General John "Crisco Kid" Ashcroft, who has abused his powers by sabotaging several ongoing investigations into an AIPAC/Pentagon spy ring, that passed classified information on to Israel. He also has pressed for a delay in action by the independent counsel Patrick Fitzgerald, probing the source of the leak to columnist Robert Novak of the identity of an undercover CIA officer, who happened to be married to Ambassador Joseph Wilson. Wilson made a February 2002 trip to Niger, on behalf of the CIA, in which he concluded that there was no credible evidence of the purported Niger-Iraq uranium deal
more
http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2004/3140cheney_sociopath.html

Since there so little news I thought I'd post this, sorry bout the source.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-04 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #135
136. This Is A Terrific Read
Because it gets right to the heart of why there's so little news and why they have to go.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #136
137. Are The French Investigating This?





<<<snio>>>
“But the one company that helped Saddam exploit the oil-for-food program in the mid-1990s that wasn't identified in Duelfer's report was Halliburton, and the person at the helm of Halliburton at the time of the scheme was Dick Cheney. Halliburton and its subsidiaries were one of several American and foreign oil supply companies that helped Iraq increase its crude exports from $4 billion in 1997 to nearly $18 billion in 2000 by skirting U.S. laws and selling Iraq spare parts so it could repair its oil fields and pump more oil. Since the oil-for-food program began, Iraq has sold $40 billion worth of oil. U.S. and European officials have long argued that the increase in Iraq's oil production also expanded Saddam's ability to use some of that money for weapons, luxury goods and palaces. Security Council diplomats estimate that Iraq was skimming off as much as 10 percent of the proceeds from the oil-for-food program thanks to companies like Halliburton and former executives such as Cheney. cont…

Cheney's hardline stance against Iraq on the campaign trail is hypocritical considering that during his tenure as chief executive of Halliburton, Cheney pushed the UN Security Council to end an 11-year embargo on sales of civilian goods, including oil-related equipment, to Iraq. Cheney has said sanctions against countries like Iraq unfairly punish U.S. companies.”<<<snip>>>

http://www.antiwar.com/orig/leopold.php?articleid=3767
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-04 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #137
138. Twisting In The Wind Kick
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-04 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #138
139. Interesting articles.
The administration is fighting the criminal charges that are going to come in several ways. In the media, they make the Plame grand jury look like a threat to the "freedom of the press." I note that there was a thread on GD for the last two days, where the person who started it stated that the case posed a threat to the constitution and an avenue to advance the Patriot Act. And this is a progressive forum! I asked about five times for the person to explain how the case in ANY way posed a threat to the consitutionally protected free press, or enhanced the Patriot Act. The person avoided answering, because neither position is true. Thus, we can conclude that either people are insincere or simply ignorant when they post this nonsense on DU; if we have that level of false information trying to pass as "fact" here, it's safe to say that other forums suffer from even greater confusion and lies.

More, when we go to the news at google for Plame, we find numerous articles that spread that same ignorance and lies.... paper after paper. And if you look closely, it's not that 50 journalists write 50 distinct articles. No, it's the same basic outline, with many of the same "key phrases" repeated in each. When you see this, be aware that each of the people that put their name on this type of article serves as one of the IC resources we have discussed. If you read about J Edgar Hoover's war on Martin Luther King, you will be aware of how the department used to release these "outlines" for sympathetic reporters. (They are as classy as a "paint-by-numbers" artist.)

We also have a Justice Department that is 75% out of control. I often say that an agency has its standards set by the director. And we have a DoJ that does not believe that poor and middle class Americans should enjoy constitutional rights .... or that wealthy republicans should have to obey the law. There is serious interference being run to postpone justice in these case. Justice delayed is justice denied, as Martin used to tell us.

When we read articles that say that there is a serious conflict between CI and the White House, believe it. In many areas in our federal government, there are individuals who know that this administration poses the greatest threat to our constitutional democracy -- and to world peace -- in history.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-04 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #139
141. Judy the Martyr!
<<<snip>>>
Even with the stand-up-for-the-little-man rhetoric, though, there is a certain Nazis-marching-through-Skokie tone to the present case. Ms. Miller is not going to the mat for some helpless whistleblower; she’s defending the right of high officials to try to anonymously sic The New York Times on a subordinate who bucked them. Mr. Wilson signed his own name to his criticisms, and it was the confidential sources who allegedly sought reprisal. Cont….


http://www.observer.com/pages/frontpage1.asp


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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-04 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #141
142. Is War With Iran The October Surprise?

Is anyone familiar with this site, and their credibility. Up thread there is a post that says Israel was planning to strike Iran on Nov. 3rd. based on the assumption the Tush would win, perhaps they’re all afraid that he will lose now and are going for broke. Any thoughts, ideas or comments on this?


<<<snip>>>>

“Voice of the White House

In recent past issues, we have carried comments from a reporter assigned to the White House press corps. Some of these remarks, most especially one about Bush’s physical and mental problems, drew an enormous number of viewers and hundreds of inquiries, most especially from foreign press entities. The reporter advised us by email that there was rampant fury in the White House and security was becoming very tight. As a result of this, he decided to lay low for a few weeks and see how the wind was blowing. Yesterday, he sent us the following material which we are now posting. Some of it is outrageous in the extreme but to date, no one has proven him wrong. Our source was the first to expose and we were the first to make public, the accusations that the President of the United States was a man that suffered from serious psychological problems. Since our initial publication of what we call the Madness of King George, there has been increasing interest in the subject and herewith, we present additional input from inside the White House.

October 10, 2004: “This time, friends, I have some very important news for all of you. Unlike the usual silly gossip that goes on around the White House, intermingled with loud praying, this is really news. We are about to embark on another war! Yes, it has been decided and carefully planned. Who are we going to war with? Iran. Background here: (I am taking this from a paper which I have to return)

Thesis: Iran hates the United States and Israel. Iran has atomic weapons and missiles (the Shahab, courtesy of North Korean/Russian technicians) It can easily reach Tel Aviv. It can also reach US troop concentrations in Iraq. Israel is scared shitless. Their pressure groups have leaned on the White House, with a great deal of assistance from Cheney and the Neocons. The actual plan is this:
Cont….

http://www.tbrnews.org/Archives/a1130.htm
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-04 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
140. Thanks.
I don't have anything further to add except another:

:kick:
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #140
143. Looking Over One's Shoulder Kick
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #143
145. Me. Classified Letters
I'm not sure if this has been posted so...
Classified Letters Regarding FBI Whistleblower Sibel Edmonds
http://www.thememoryhole.org/spy/edmonds_letters.htm
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #145
148. Fantastic! Very important!
In case anyone is confused by the right-wing rant that calling reporters like Judith Miller to testify in front of a grand jury puts journalism "at risk" of not being able to protect whistle-blowers, this extremely important information shows what a real "whistle-blower" is. To compare Sibel Edmonds to Scooter Libby is like comparing sugar to shit.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #145
149. Thanks Dream
Of course I'd like to know who the foreign official was. A likudnik? And. does the follow up lead us to that group of frat boys with a blood lust in the administration?

“at least two communications reflecting a foreign official's handling of intelligence matters. The FBI has confirmed that the contract linguist had "unreported contacts" with that foreign official. To what extent did that contract linguist have any additional unreported or reported contacts with that foreign official? What counterintelligence inquiries or assessments, if any, were made with respect to those contacts? Do you plan to interview field office and headquarters counterintelligence personnel regarding this matter?”
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EST Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
144. Hi H20man
One of the things that probably should be included in this whole story is the intense hatred of Kerry due to his investigations of the BCCI scandals and other illegal financial arrangements in the late eighties. Keeping in mind the involvement of the "honorable" John McCain in these peccadillos and his apparent repenting and being dropped from the bad guys list.

I am not at all clear that the election of Kerry is really going to do much to resurrect our republic, but I can see it as a beginning. These shadowy groups are not gone: just like the mafia, they have put a more carefully constructed legal face on their various enterprises. The recent threads describing McCain's involvement in the atrocities in Arizona didn't raise the level of indignation nearly as much as I, personally, had hoped. I'm afraid we are becoming like the irradiated mice who initially ran around desperately on exposure and then laid down and died without a further care.

How can we get more attention from the more honest members of the government? I recently wrote to house speaker Hastert, expressing my concern over the illegal activities of Tom DeLay and asking him to take a more aggressive stance, as speaker, on the obvious. His bullshit form letter pointing out that I should be communicating with my own representative, rather than him, left me infuriated. My conclusion that ethical members are in reality only slightly less unethical than their counterparts seems justified, although I refuse to give up.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #144
146. You raise interesting points.
I think that the democrats should be reminding the public about Iran-Contra: the threat to constitutional democracy; the brave role that Kerry played; the criminal convictions and presidentail pardons; and the number of criminals in this administration. People often talk about federal prisons being "country clubs" -- my goodness, they have turned the White House into a retreat for felons!

Kerry's election will not be the solution to all of our problems. But it will allow us an opportunity to begin to address many of them. In the most up-beat view, I think it will take 20 years to heal the damage that Bush has done, at home and around the world. And that is on top of the fact that we had entrenched problems to begin with.

Yet in the most real sense, "democracy" is not a goal that we should look forward to in the future ..... any more than religion should be based on some mythological heaven in the future. Democracy, like the kingdom of heaven, is NOW! It is the process! It's right here, right now. Democracy is a life-force, here surrounding us. The only question is will we transmit it.

Long ago, on the first Plame thread, I made reference to a story that a friend told me years ago. A group of natives found an airplane. Some were simply afraid of it. Others decided it offered comfortable seats, with a nice view, and so they used it as a couch. Eventually, some found out that the engine worked, and they used it for a car. And then a few recognized that it had the potential to fly.

That's us, of course. I'm not as concerned what any senators or representatives do, as I am concerned what DUers do. Because we will determine if this country is a democracy or not. The grass roots is the airplane. We can fly.
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EST Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #146
150. You sound like my other side!
It is so very easy to get caught up in the evil that surrounds us, today, particularly given the moderator's question last night concerning whether or not we can ever enjoy the "security" we used to live under! It's amusing, in a macabre sort of way, to remember a seminar I attended in St. Louis in 1980 where we concluded our biggest single goal at that time was to expose the game the US and the USSR were playing with the lives of our citizens. The constant threat of nuclear annihilation in those days led to an appalling level of suicide, especially among teens and young adults. Maybe I was more connected to day-to-day survival in those days, but these times seem to me to be even more ugly.

Yes, heaven must not be a place of instant wish-fulfillment and peace; it must be, for happiness' sake, a place of challenges and victories, with the constant threat of losing one's identity and being mortal. This certainly has the size enough to be heaven, as well as all the other requirements.

I am not so sanguine as to assume that even twenty years will be enough to re-direct the damage from the Bush empire. I have no doubt the upcoming challenges will leave many rightly misty eyed thinking about how calm and secure we had it back in "the good 'ol days" of the early twenty first century. Probably my biggest regret comes from the realization that I likely will not be among them. I do find myself, from time to time, getting very angry that the forces of evil refuse to allow me the occasion for a little reflective rumination and quiet enjoyment of the present.

The election of Kerry certainly will be no panacea, as you point out; merely a shaky beginning. Mayberry only exists in childhood's memories. Pity that Nader didn't threaten to garner a much higher percentage of the vote in order to force the inclusion of some of his points into the plans of the progressive party. It truly does start here, now.

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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #146
151. Perfect!
“is like comparing sugar to shit”

&

"We can fly.”
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yodermon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
152. New BIZARRE propoganda twist
from http://www.bostonphoenix.com/boston/news_features/editorial/documents/04193337.asp

"If he wished, George W. Bush could find out tomorrow which of his underlings outed Valerie Plame. Instead, his administration, in the person of Fitzgerald, is harassing and intimidating the journalists who were the recipients of White House leaks. It’s a characteristic tactic for these thugs — and it sends a chilling message to any reporter who promises confidentiality to a source while attempting to ferret out the truth. This is just one more reason that Bush and his administration need to be turned out of office."

This is the first I've seen it twisted around to such an laughable extent. Anyone else?

(ps - found via searching google news for "Plame")
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #152
153. As Malcolm X used to say
the media are masters of making the criminal look like victims, and the victims look like criminals. Fitzgerald is not looking to help the Bush administration.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
154. Time reporter in contempt second time
Edited on Thu Oct-14-04 02:03 PM by seemslikeadream
Washington, United States, Oct. 14 (UPI) -- A Washington judge has held Time reporter Matthew Cooper in contempt a second time for refusing to name his sources for a story that identified a CIA agent.

Last week, New York Times reporter Judith Miller was found in contempt of court in the same investigation, and filed an immediate appeal. Cooper and Time will join her appeal, the Washington Post said.

In Wednesday's ruling, Chief U.S. District Judge Thomas Hogan ordered Cooper jailed for as long as 18 months, but stayed the order until after the appeal is heard. Hogan also found Time magazine in civil contempt for failing to produce documents and imposed a $1,000-a-day fine on the publication, also suspended until after the appeal.

...

In a July 17, 2003, story, Cooper wrote unidentified "government officials" told Time and syndicated columnist Robert Novak Valerie Plame, the wife of a former U.S. ambassador, is a CIA agent.

more
http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20041014-091317-8530r.htm


U.S. judge orders journalist to testify
By Michael Janofsky The New York Times

...

For a second time, the judge, Thomas Hogan, ordered Cooper, to disclose sources for an article in which he wrote that "some government officials" had identified Valerie Plame as an official of the Central Intelligence Agency. Also for a second time, Cooper refused, citing a journalist's promise to protect his sources.
.
Hogan then found Cooper in contempt of court. Two months ago, Hogan made the same ruling, but he lifted that order after one of the sources, Lewis Libby, chief of staff to Vice President Dick Cheney, waived his confidentiality agreement with Cooper to allow discussion of their conversations before the grand jury.
.
Patrick Fitzgerald, the special prosecutor investigating leaks of Plame's identity, called Cooper before the grand jury again, seeking the names of other sources. As before, Cooper refused.

.
Floyd Abrams, a lawyer representing Cooper and Time as well as Judith Miller, a reporter for The New York Times who has been held in contempt by Hogan for the same reasons as Cooper in another case, told the court that the Cooper and Miller cases would be filed as a consolidated appeal next week.

In some circumstances, it is a federal crime for a government official to disclose the name of a CIA operative, and Hogan readily acknowledged that the issues before him represented "a classic confrontation of First Amendment rights and the demands of the criminal justice system." But in issuing the contempt citation, he said the government had exhausted all other means to obtain the information. He effectively agreed with arguments by Jim Fleissner, a federal prosecutor from Chicago, who said a Supreme Court case from 1972, Branzburg v. Hayes, set precedent in such cases, requiring reporters to answer questions from grand juries about their sources.
more
http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/10/14/news/leak.html


:hi: H2O Man, Me., RevRussel





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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #154
155. Can you imagine ....
if the circumstances were slightly different, and during the Clinton administration, two high-ranking White House officials had exposed the identity of a CIA operative? And that the president failed to identify the law-breakers? And that reporters with a cozy relationship with the administration refused to honor a federal court order to testify? Because they disagreed with the law? All hell would break loose. Every republican senator and representative would be on Fox news ranting and raving. They would start impeachment proceedings. But now they are strangely silent.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #154
156. Would It Be Right To Think of Fitz As...
our modern day Eliot Ness and Fleisnner as one of his "untouchables?

Hey back at ya Dream.


As for the silence of reporters, I see it as a sin of omission. They, better than anyone, know what these people are like, what they have done and what they are capable of, yet they have stood by, mutely. They have been as much co-conspirators in the dismantling of this country as they have been in the spy scandals.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #156
157. "A conspiracy of silence
speaks louder than words." -- John Lennon

I think that Patrick Fitzgerald is, in a way, kind of like John Kerry. For a good part of his life, he was "one of the boys." And both could remain comfortable and enjoy the fruits of being "successful" in that context. But something happened to each one. They encounter something that sparks their conscience. And psychologically, they separate from the gang.

This happens to each of us to some degree, at some point, in our lives. And unfortunetly, many people ignore their conscience. The truth is that most human beings are far more uncomfortable with their higher potential than their lower level of being. That's human nature in the context of our society. And that's a shame.

Yet there are also many people who respond positively to their conscience. Look at all the evidence in today's world of rampant evil: there must be a heck of a lot of good energy keeping the world from going up in flames. There are heroes. Most are not celebrities. It could be your grandmother, or it could be a nurse, or any number of people who go unnoticed, but who are sources of the higher level of energy.

And every so often, there is a Frank Serpico who is driven to confront the system in a lonely noble battle that may well result in their being destroyed.

Fitzgerald and Kerry are a variation of the Serpico theme. It's harder for the comfortably rich to answer the call; as the Master pointed out, a camel can fit through the eye of a needle easier than they can reach heaven. For Kerry, Vietnam did it. And the guy, while not perfect by any means, has fought the good fight since. The Iran-Contra business, which should be getting huge attention, could have cost Kerry more than money or seniority on a committee.

I'm not sure about Fitzgerald. The administration thought he was "their boy." Somewhere -- maybe in church, maybe by his grandfather -- a seed was planted. And this case has caused that seed to take root. And I can assure you that no matter what the outcome, he is less likely to go against his principles at this point than any other federal attorney. He knows he was picked for this for a reason bigger than himself.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #157
158. Thank You
"A Conspiracy of silence..." God I wish he was here, still with us today! You know, one day I was walking down Columbus Avenue, along the park behind the Planetarium, when John and Yoko came towards us. He was doing a sort of skipping walk, and seemed so calm and very happy. I've thought of him often in the past year, of how much we could use his presence.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #158
159. I Guess It Takes A Comedian To Get IT
<<<snip>>>

“But that didn't stop "The Daily Show" anchor Jon Stewart from jumping all over the 73-year-old conservative columnist at the center of a Justice Department probe into who leaked the identity of CIA operative Valerie Plame, the wife of Bush White House antagonist Joseph Wilson.

"Novak apparently broke his hip. I think that's not the case," Stewart said under questioning from Ken Auletta. "I think his hip tried to escape."

Piling on, Stewart continued: "I would not have him on the show. I have standards. I wouldn't do it. He shouldn't be on television. CNN should not have him on the air. He should not be amongst civilized people."


http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/242541p-207741c.html
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #159
160. Doing Hard Time Kick
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
161. ABC News - Rove Testifies Before Grand Jury in CIA Leak Investigation
WASHINGTON, Oct. 15, 2003 — With election day getting closer the President's top advisor, Karl Rove, took time away from his duties to testify before a federal grand jury this morning. Rove appeared before the federal grand jury investigating the leak of a CIA officer's name and testified for almost 2 and a half hours.

Rove declined to answer reporters' questions as he departed the federal courthouse and set off in a-non descript bronze colored midsize car. Rove was escorted out of the courthouse by two US Marshals and an unidentified man. Rove sat in the back seat of the car and immediately began making using his cell phone.
more
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=168868&page=1
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #161
162. So Why The Second Visit?
Are we getting closer?
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #162
163. Kerry Campaign Statement
Originally posted by Wicket on LBN:

To: National Desk, Political Reporter

Contact: Chad Clanton or Phil Singer, 202-464-2800, both of Kerry-Edwards 2004

WASHINGTON, Oct. 15 /U.S. Newswire/ -- In response to reports that Karl Rove testified before the grand jury investigating the CIA leak case, Kerry-Edwards campaign Senior Adviser Joe Lockhart issued the following statement:

"With two weeks to go before the election, the American people are still in the dark about how it is that their White House leaked the name of an undercover CIA operative to the press, jeopardizing the life of this agent and possibly violating federal law.

"Instead of hiding behind the lawyers he so often likes to criticize, George Bush should direct Karl Rove and anyone else involved to go to the White House briefing room and come clean about their role in this insidious act. If the president sincerely wanted to get to the bottom of this potential crime, he'd stop the White House foot dragging and fully cooperate with this investigation."

http://www.usnewswire.com/

Don't want to get mine or anyone else's hopes up but maybe things are heating up again. Perfect timing Fitz, intentional or not!

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kohodog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #163
164. When will Novak be called?
He's making statements from his bed for Fox newspeak. As far as I'm concerned, they can wheel him in to the Grand Jury. If the court house isn't handicap accessible he'll just have to drag himself up the stairs.

I don't expect indictments before November because of the Miller suit. But if this gets exposure it will only help Kerry. I wish we could expect more from the media, but they've sold their collective soul.

I'm glad the Kerry campaign has picked it up though.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #164
165. McAuliffe Statement on Rove Grand Jury Testimony
<<<snip>>>

"Two and a half hours is a long time to spend in front of a federal grand jury – a lot of information must have been shared," said McAuliffe. "Karl Rove needs to come clean and tell us what he told the grand jury today, and the President should show some leadership by making sure Karl Rove does just that. There are important questions about this criminal investigation that the White House needs to stop ducking and start answering." cont....

http://www.noticias.info/Asp/aspComunicados.asp?nid=36375&src=0

"If the court house isn't handicap accessible he'll just have to drag himself up the stairs." Good one!

Did Novakula say anything about Rove?
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yodermon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
166. ATTENTION Plame Thread watchers
Edited on Sun Oct-17-04 11:49 PM by yodermon
Please check out this item in GD.. Sibel Edmonds information, and one "Karl W. B. Schwarz".

Sorry if this is old news.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2504341
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