Dems Will Win invites all into the parlor, the TANG Forgeries are Solved!

[Dems Will Win]

Dr. H20 Man and Dems Will Win examine the copy
of the copy of the copy of the TANG forgery.

I’ve called you all into the parlor this evening to announce that I have cracked “The Strange Case of the TANG Forgeries”. I’m sure you all know Roger Stone and his lovely wife Nydia Bertran-Stone, that fiery Cuban rightwinger, who helped him arrange for Cuban righties to come down to the Miami courthouse, riot, and steal the election for Dubya in 2000. And guess who James Baker also asked to come and riot, Harry W. MacDougald, the “eagle-eyed” Buckhead, who announced the TANG documents were forgeries almost immediately, as if he had been forewarned. So Stone and Buckhead rioted together. Harry W. MacDougald is actually part of a gang of Republican lawyers who will do almost anything for the GOP.

Mr. Stone is infamous for his electioneering dirty tricks for years, and this year he even became the campaign manager and chief money-raiser for Al Sharpton in a blatant attempt to conflate Sharpton with the word Democrat and sink the ticket.

During the Democratic primaries, the AWOL charge came up. Karl Rove, alarmed at this turn of events, decided to forge documents that were based on real documents, with truth in them that reflected badly on the President, but that were fake. If he could get the DNC or the Kerry campaign to run with them, the cry of forgery could be used to shut down all talk of Bush’s National Guard service, once they were exposed. A simple plan, Nazis did it all the time.

Only Rove, with Bartlett’s help, could have made the forgeries, for Bartlett was an expert on the TANG records and had documents not yet released to the press. Rove would have kept the circle small, with as few in the know as possible. They forge the memos, originally typed by Mrs. Knox on an old Olympia manual, on a word processor.

Rove then calls up his best operative who is not officially connected with the campaign--the notorious Roger Stone—someone who would never talk and the only person Rove would give the job to. Rove then gets Stone the TANG forgeries. Nydia Stone, who has a Cuban accent, and has a long history of right-wing politics, having been Nixon’s personal photographer and a photographer at the Reagan White House, offers to play the part of the damsel in distress, Lucy Ramirez. The Stones, who love to put on a good show, are thrilled to be “back in action”.

Bill Burkett was the patsy selected by Rove and Bartlett, having had a history of mental illness and known to hate Bush. “Lucy Ramirez” calls Burkett and tells him of the documents, telling him he must get them to Kerry, but that he must promise to destroy the originals as soon as copies them for her sake. Burkett agrees and arranges to meet her at a livestock show in Lubbock.

But Lucy doesn’t show up. Not wanting his wife to be the one to make the handoff--it was Roger Stone delivering the hottest envelope of 2004 to Bill Burkett. Stone then turned around and left without saying a word. Burkett, being an honorable man, obeyed the damsel in distress pleas and burned the originals after copying them. "Lucy Ramirez" and the "unknown man with the envelope" disappear.

The trap is set, only Burkett doesn't call anyone about the documents until Mary Mapes tracks him down and asks if there is anything else he knows.

When the promos for the CBS report come on, Roger Stone phones MacDougald and the trap is set. Within hours, MacDougald has every main point in play and the game begins.

THINK—Why would a Democrat give forged documents to a source like Burkett who could be easily destroyed as a witness?

Only a Republican would do it and Roger and Nydia Stone have been in the middle of top-level dirty tricks for years. Nydia even put Al Sharpton over the top with a $250 contribution from herself and friends, when he almost didn’t make the matching fund threshold.

She is as big a right-winger as her husband is. She is no doubt Lucy Ramirez, and what I have laid out here before you is the only probable solution to the whole case, no matter how unlikely that may seem—given Rove and Bartlett’s position.

The final sign that this was a White House forgery came when the reporter interviewing Dan Bartlett noted that his statement that he had no reason to doubt they were forgeries was emphasized so much the reporter noticed it as standing out. Bartlett today cancelled all his appearances, possibly to avoid questioning by the other side.

Even though Rove and Bartlett were taking a tremendous risk, as I like to tell Dr. H20 Man all the time: "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."


Dems Will Win Turns the Notorious "Lucy Ramirez"
over to the Cyber-Bobbies

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

1. I have suspected...

That the mysterious latin Mata Hari was, in fact, Mrs. Stone.

Sure would be good to get evidence of that fact.

[slor]

2. My theory exactly...

you my friend, are a modern day Sherlock Holmes!

[Dems Will Win]

16. Thank you old bean!

[Dems Will Win]

21. Let's all nominate this for the Home Page, what do you say, chaps?

[Carla in Ca]

31. A jolly good deduction

n/t

[Zorbet55]

64. By jove, I think he's got it....he's got it........he's got it!

To think he's really got it is more than we could ask. :bounce:

[starroute]

77. But the memos couldn't have been done on a word processor

Check out any of the many DU threads on the matter. The letters don't match any computer fonts. The spacing of the letters doesn't match computer-generated equivalents. The many irregularities in the text -- most notably the wobbly baselines -- are characteristic of typewriters and can't be reproduced by computer without letter-by-letter photoshopping. The headings on several of the memos are at an angle to the main text, which can easily happen on a typewriter but would never occur with a computer.

(See, for example, http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2414819)

Because of all these things, I am absolutely certain that the memos are not recent forgeries.

I'm willing to entertain an alternative scenario in which Rove got his hands on some authentic Killian memos and decided to put them out in a manner which would discredit them and any similar materials. But I don't believe that a scenario which relies on the memos being forged is going to hold up in the long run.

[Dems Will Win]

82. My dear Starroute, I don't disagree

The forgeries could have been done on a Selectric Composer, although a typewriter expert said no way so both ways to do it have been shot down.

Either way Rove and Bartlett forged them and gave them to the master dirty trickster. Really does not make a difference.

They are forgeries however, Rove had Staudt's name in there with the wrong year just to prove the content was wrong too, don't forget.

By the way, it's good for Democrats now that they are forgeries since the REPUBLICANS planted them with Burkett.

Forgeries=Good for Democrats, Bad for Republicans!

[bear425]

3. Sounds feasible

When will Dan Rather know this and what will he do about it? Have you emailed him?

[Dems Will Win]

5. Let's email all of them!

But no, not yet. Be my guest. We all will have to bombard them.

[democrat_patriot]

28. Here's an email list

[e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; 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[Dems Will Win]

52. Thank you, old bean!

[JerseygirlCT]

4. Now how do we prove it? nt

[Dems Will Win]

8. Ah Elementary! My dear Jerseygirl!

How did Stone get to Texas--he no doubt flew, being such a rich dirty trickster and too busy to drive. THere will be an airline record to Lubbock with his name on it.

Credit card records--did he rent a car? Did he eat there, etc. Phone records of the Lucy Ramirez calls can be pulled, although they are likely from a phone booth. Can Burkett ID Lucy's voice over the phone. Which phone in Houston di she call from?

Plus are there people from Texas, like Burkett himself, who can ID Roger Stone as the man with the envelope, There on March 3, 2004?

And what is Roger Stone's alibi for that moment? It better be air-tight.

Plus someone should list all the dirty tricks Stone has been involved in.

[punpirate]

44. There's only one problem with this...

... and it's that Burkett is contemplating filing a suit against CBS, and won't be cooperating with anyone. Burkett is still insisting that the documents are genuine, even though the originals are now long gone.

From all recent accounts, Burkett is a little over the top right now. He simply doesn't believe that both he and CBS (and the Dems, had they bit) were set up.

One of the things he could do, were he willing to help find who did this to him, would be to sit down with an experienced forensic sketch artist to do a drawing of the man who approached with the documents in Houston. But, I doubt he's going to do that.

But, he's not willing. He thinks the documents are real. Without his cooperation, I doubt this goes very far, simply because there are too many unknowns.

For example, the name Burkett was given was Lucy Ramirez. It's a very long stretch to assume that because of the name given, it was a woman of Spanish extraction. Only Burkett can provide a guess about ethnic background, because he talked to her.

Only Burkett has the phone number used.

Only Burkett has actually seen the person who delivered the documents, and can describe him (and, for what it's worth, one starts from the description of the man, rather than working backwards from the assumption that it's Roger Stone).

The key to this is not rumors (for those rumors can be, in themselves, a disinformation campaign to throw off investigations into the real people involved). The key to all of this is Bill Burkett, himself. To get to him, one needs to go through his lawyer.

My advice would be to start with an inquiry to David Van Os in San Antonio.

Cheers.

[Joanne98]

78. Can CBS counter sue Burkett? Can anybody sue him?

You would think some enterprising young reporter would jump on this mystery. It's far from solved. Where's the next Woodward and Bernstein? The credit card check is a good idea. But don't you have to have a license to do that? Maybe somebody can dig in their trash....

[Dems Will Win]

81. An airline employee, look up the mainfests to Lubbock on March 2-4, 2004??

[jimshoes]

9. Any security cameras at the Rodeo that day

maybe one caught the handoff. Longshot but possible.

[Dems Will Win]

27. no but there would be photos at the airport perhaps

[Eloriel]

6. Sure wish you had links for some of the facts you cite.

Not that I doubt them, just that it would make a better case.

[Dems Will Win]

11. I wish I had the time. But here are some

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/9/21/17737/0525

http://news.best-buy-online.com/News_87.html

http://www.newsmeat.com/fec/bystate_detail.php?st=&zip=33154&last=Bertran-Stone&first=Nydia

http://www.newsmeat.com/fec/bystate_detail.php?st=&zip=33154&last=Stone&first=Nydia

http://www.southcoasttoday.com/daily/09-96/09-13-96/a04wn026.htm

http://www.nndb.com/people/844/000047703/

http://portal.fightingdemocrat.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2019

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-09-21-cbs-parties_x.htm

http://www.buzzflash.com/analysis/03/09/15_recount.html

A little racy reading before bedtime!

[H2O Man]

24. great job!!!

I think we should be sending it to as many media sources as possible. The Democratic Underground was quoted in the feature story in this week's TIME. More people are reading DU than one might suspect.

[Dems Will Win]

26. It's Elementary, my dear Dr. H20 Man!

Glass of schnapps to celebrate the cracking of the case, what?!

[Pallas180]

40. Eloriel - those aren't facts. Surmising. Guesses. Maybe even

psychic, but not facts. Kind of jumping to conclusion without the
links, as you suggest...if the links were there....we might be able
to connect dots....but there aren't even dots here to connect Rove
to this.

Not that we dont think it's a possibility.

but we need the stepping stones...not one giant leap to conclusion -

I mean - I agree with you.

Links?

[AlCzervik]

7. You kick ass.

I followed your thread the other day about, i'm glad you posted your follow up. Can we help?

[Dems Will Win]

12. Go to the email blaster and send this to Keith Olbermann everybody!

He mentioned it last night!

[AlCzervik]

13. On it!

[Snotcicles]

10. The reason I'm so Damn happy

to be a Democrat is that I am in such smart company.

[chimpymustgo]

14. Fix your references to Ramirez as Martinez. Great theory.

Of course you'll never prove it, dang it.

[Dems Will Win]

17. From USA TODAY

-snip

Burkett now maintains that the source of the papers was Lucy Ramirez, who he says phoned him from Houston in March to offer the documents. USA TODAY has been unable to locate Ramirez.

-snip-

[chimpymustgo]

18. Agreed. But you refer to her as "Martinez" later in your piece.

Just wanted you to clean it up - it's a good theory.

[Dems Will Win]

19. Muchos gracias! Correcto!

[chimpymustgo]

20. No problemo!

In case this makes it to the home page - just want it to be tight.

[nostamj]

15. quite plausible...

it comes down to the KEY question about 9/11...

WHO BENEFITED? with 9/11, only * and his enablers came out ahead. bush 'slept great' had a 'fabulous year' and hit the 'trifecta...

now, memogate... who benefits?

taking down the LAST network news division willing to do serious investigations that challenge the divine right (pun intended!) of neocon domination AND give a platform to whistleblowers...

that benefits ONLY bushco.

dems aren't behind this... let's hope the truth will out.

[RandomKoolzip]

22. Has anybody e-mailed this to Rather and CBS yet?

Or Rolling Stone, perhaps?

[Dems Will Win]

23. Another clue! Where is my magnifying glass???

http://www.chrisishardcore.com/

-snip-

Who is Liz Macdougald?

So we know that "Buckhead" posted anonymously about the memos on FreeRepublic.com within four hours of CBS airing them. We also know that someone named Liz Macdougald began e-mailing conservative blogs like Powerline telling people that they needed to read Buckhead's post. Later we learned that "Buckhead" was an Atlanta lawyer named Harry MacDougald who writes non-anonymous letters to the editor of the AJC and has even been profiled as a Republican "people's lawyer."

Now I can report that MacDougald's wife is named Jane E Francis. AKA Jane E MacDougald. AKA Jane Elizabeth Francis. Or Liz MacDougald. So why would MacDougald post anonymously and then use his wife's name and email to generate traffic to his post. Why not just post using his real name?

-snip-

[RandomKoolzip]

25. I remember trying to do internet research on Liz MacDougald a few days ago

and geting nowhere. How did you get that info, and are you sure she's the same woman (i.e, uses "Liz" and "Jane" interchangeably and sometimes uses her maiden name?)

Please post a link, if you would be so kind.....

[notadmblnd]

41. because they think their shit don't stink?

but their incredibly stupid brainfarts give them away?

[UTUSN]

29. This Is Simple, Brilliant, and TRUE!!!

and I sent it to a wingnut, local radio talkshow host--------and his DENIAL response was "Too many moving parts."

No, this version is TRUE.



Sidebar/P.S./whatever---------the only quibble I would have is to research this STONE's wife's name. Is it "Nidia"???? And wouldn't the surname be BELTRAN (a common Hispanic surname) instead of (non-existent?) BERTRAN?


The whole scenario is TRUE. I would only add that KKKarl was planning this in his shop for YEARS, possibly since 2000, just like the WTC project was planned for years. Then, in March of 2004, BURKETT is hooked, then the project is in dormant/sleeper cell stage, while SEVERAL news outlets are CONTACTING HIM (how did they KNOW?). When BURKETT is seduced by CBS, Buckhead goes into action. And KKKarl has a multiple orgasm because he gets to smear CBS, smear RATHER, and MIRE the JK campaign.

Besides "innoculating" Shrub on the TANG issue. Just like he did with poor James HATFIELD, feeding him TRUTHS, then smearing/discrediting the MESSENGER, thus getting the media whores to pay attention to FALSE issues, while ignoring REAL issues.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

30. kick

....

[Dems Will Win]

33. It's Cuban its Bertran with an accent over the a. Her mother is Olga

Bertran.

[Morning Dew]

32. Is this clear?

The final sign that this was a White House forgery came when the reporter interviewing Dan Bartlett noted that his statement that he had no reason to doubt they were forgeries was emphasized so much the reporter noticed it as standing out. Bartlett today cancelled all his appearances, possibly to avoid questioning by the other side.


no reason to doubt they were forgeries or no reaason to doubt they were real?

[Dems Will Win]

35. By Jove you're right! Of course

I meant no reason to doubt they were real of course.

In fact this article shows that the fact that Bartlett said he had no reason to doubt the authenticity of the memos helped make the decision to air them. So here CBS was asking the forger himself (or at least he helped) whether they were real or not!

http://www.usatoday.com/life/columnist/mediamix/2004-09-19-media-mix_x.htm


-snip-

On the morning of the Sept. 8 broadcast — as 60 Minutes producers and lawyers discussed the memos' authenticity in New York — CBS correspondent John Roberts interviewed White House spokesman Dan Bartlett in Washington. CBS had given Bartlett the memos.

Bartlett didn't question their authenticity but in about six instances used information in them to bolster his argument that Bush served honorably in the Texas Air National Guard. Roberts called Howard after his interview and, Howard says, reported that "Bartlett had no quarrel with the authenticity of the documents; in fact, he read into them stuff that supported the White House position. We took that to mean, 'Well, guess there's no issue here.' "

(USA TODAY obtained copies of the memos shortly after the 60 Minutes broadcast and reported that the next day. The newspaper's editors, like those at other media, relied in part on the fact that the White House did not challenge the memos' authenticity and released copies after the broadcast.)

White House aides have subsequently said Bartlett had no reason to doubt the authenticity of the memos because they had come from CBS News, a reliable news operation.

-snip-

AND:http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002039928_natguard19.html


NEW YORK — It was 11 a.m. on Sept. 8 — nine hours before "60 Minutes" was to air. But as news executives debated whether to broadcast a story on newly obtained paperwork purporting to offer new evidence about President Bush's National Guard service, a big question hung over CBS News' Westside headquarters: Were the photocopied documents real or fake?

The answer seemed to materialize suddenly, and from an unlikely source — the White House.

John Roberts, the network's White House correspondent, called to report that he had just completed an on-camera interview with White House communications director Dan Bartlett. Bartlett, it appeared, had no quarrel with the authenticity of the documents.

That was the turning point.

"If we had gotten back from the White House any kind of red flag, raised eyebrow, anything that said, 'Are you sure about this stuff?' we would have gone back to square one," Josh Howard, the program's executive producer, told the Los Angeles Times on Friday. "The White House said they were authentic, and that carried a lot of weight with us."

It's incredible how John Roberts was PLAYED by Bartlett! Of course Bartlett was in the catbird seat, no?

[KoKo]

34. The big question in all this is: Why would Burkitt burn the originals...?

Just because he was told to? This man must have some sophistication...he's been dealing with the Bush's for years. Would any of us burn original documents but leaving only copies to go to CBS. Without the originals you have no proof in a legal case unless the documents could be directly traced to originals by some kind of verification from witnesses who saw the originals and copies?

That's what this story hinges on, to me. I wonder if he really had the originals or was not just given the copies and then made up the story about burning them in a parking lot. What about security patrol in the parking lot. You just don't light a fire and burn something in public without causing some kind of attention.

How was he so sure CBS and their Lawyers would accept these copies based on his story that he had burned the originals. And why did they?

I think all the rest makes sense. But being an avid mystery reader I still say...no one burns originals and passes off copies when in fact the originals were his only proof. :shrug:

[Dems Will Win]

36. It's elementary my dear Koko!

Burkett is a man of the South, a man who keeps his promises, especially to a damsel in distress as Lucy Ramirez pretended to be. She asked him to burn the originals, which he did later in a warehouse I believe. The originals actually were kept until then.

Plus Burkett would never have forged these, I'm sure of that, being a man of honor and an honest Democrat.

The only reason Burkett lied was to protect a lady's honor, making up the Conn story. Nydia must have pretended that Lucy Ramirez was having an affair with Killian and did not want to become known! I bet she is sexy on the phone too and Burkett was charmed.

Why would Nydia Stone tell him he must burn the originals? Watermarks my dear Koko, watermarks on the original paper would have revealed them as fakes immmediately, wrong year, plus computer printouts do not leave impressions on paper like typewriters do.

There you see, simple. The story keeps coming together and together, rather than unraveling. There are no flaws in Holmes solution.

Roger Stone better have an air-tight alibi for March 3, 2004!


Now fetch me my pipe!

[KoKo]

39. I read in a couple of place papers burned in parking lot...but maybe the

stories are varying. I remember my brain flagged IN a PARKING LOT? How Weird! But, maybe he's changed his story since it broke and now says a warehouse. Not much smoke to call attention?..But,what warehouse..how did he get into the warehouse?

I still have trouble believing the "damsel in distress" angle, though. Southern Gentleman or not, who burns originals when his own reputation was at stake. And, why didn't he "white out" the Kinko's office where he copied the papers off the copies? Was he really that innocent? After dealing with the Bushes? Maybe... But, why was CBS so seemingly clueless, hiring not one expert in typefaces and typing equipment? And, why didn't someone ask Mrs. Knox who she thought could have typed them if she didn't. Why use Army terminology in an ANG document, which is a dead ringer that they were fake. Why didn't CBS show them to an ANG person from that time, and have them look them over?

See, to me there are so many loose ends with this story, I feel we know very little, but what Burkett is telling us. What if Lucy Ramirez is a red herring? Just to make us think it's Rove or Stone. What if it was someone in CBS working against Rather? Would Rove be so sloppy?

Your theory is all we have though, and it may very well be the correct one. As I said, I read alot of mysteries..

[DoYouEverWonder]

43. Easy, he was sweet talked into it.

I'm sure 'Lucy' must have had a great story about how she feared for her life if anyone found out that she had given him the documents.

"Dear Mr. Burkett, this is a matter of life and death. I'm so afraid. It is of the utmost importance that the originals be destroyed. I can not take the chance of the evil BCF, being able to ID me by my fingerprints. So, please Mr. Burkett, you understand, that the only way I can give you these documents, is if you promise me to destroy them after you make copies. Oh thank you, Mr. Burkett, I knew you would understand."

[coreystone]

61. YES! That is what my question was going to be! Why destroy the ...

verifyable documents??

[Dems Will Win]

66. Protectng a lady's honor!

[DemBones DemBones]

37. I thought that I had read that Burkett got the documents

from "Lucy Ramirez" back in 2000? Just checking to see if I am alone in thinking this.

[KoKo]

38. What I read was a man at the State Fair in Lubbock..but he was phoned

by Lucy Ramirez. I also read that reporters tried to contact Ramirez without sucess...They must not have tried to hard, but maybe Thornburg will get on it (ha!)

[DoYouEverWonder]

42. No, he got them last March

after he had made the rounds of the news shows in February. Up until then, his story was always that he had seen Bush's records in a garbage pail, but he did not take them. So Burkett, never had any documented proof for his allegations.

With a little help from his 'friends', problem solved.

[Dems Will Win]

47. That's correct! When Burkett toured the shows in February on the

AWOL issue, Bartlett and Rove saw him and hatched the evil plan, which was carried out in early March.

Good show!

We should nail down where Burkett burned the origiinals. Anyone have the link to that part of the story. I know I read it somewhere.

I shall play my violin until then.


It helps Dems Will Win to
think when he plays the violin

[KoKo]

50. Then where did "getting papers at State Fair in Lubbock" story come from..

:shrug: Are there different versions of all this from Killian. I read what was posted on CBS website and some reports here...and had impression it was at a State Fair, but now it seems it was in March?

[Hephaistos]

45. No buy - yet

Your package is a little too neat, and there is little evidence for an involvement of Stone or his wife, only a blurb in a rw rag.

I would also consider the possibility that Burkett himself is a plant.

- He repeatedly tries to involve the Kerry campaign, first Cleland (nothing) and then again through CBS. He had the scoop with CBS - why involve and endanger the campaign.

- The statement that he burned the originals is unbelievable. He saw the BFEE destroy records and is pissed - why would he do the same.

It is also suspicious that the result of a 6-months investigation into the Niger papers was dumped because of Burkett's memos, which really didn't add anything substantial to the AWOL story.

There was another accomplice on the inside, at CBS, who pushed this decision.

Interesting tidbit: I went sewer-fishing at some rw sites, and came up with this litte factoid: apparently a pdf with the Burkett memos on the Fox website was created last February right after the WH doc dump. The pdf has now been changed, but some wingnuts checked and confirmed back a couple of weeks ago. Could be disinfo, though.

LINK {warning: freepers}

[Blue Wally]

46. Unless

Even though Rove and Bartlett were taking a tremendous risk, as I like to tell Dr. H20 Man all the time: "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."

Unless you have a probable. Much as we would like for all of this to be true, the most plausible thing is:

1. Burkett is a loser and has been for most of his life. He has made a career of pulling two and three year stints as a full-time national Guardsman. He tried to "get over" onm the system and get a more profitable retirement. He was shot down and blames then-Governer Bush for his trouble.

2. He was having some success at national recognition with his documents in the trash can story. When that began playing out, he needed something else to attract the Democratic party or the news media to him.

3. He created very plausible memos supporting many peoples suppositions of what went on at the time in Bush's TANG unit. Unfortunately, he used "Army jargon" in the memos (each service has its own peculiar way of phrasing that jars on other service members) and he used a word processor.

4. It looks like we (and CBS) got caught in a "be careful what you wish for" scenario.

[Dems Will Win]

48. I'm afraid your theory has a rather large, no make that humungous

hole in it.

Burkett was on the shows in February, got the forgeries supposedly in March and then sat on them for five months.

Five Months.

Even if he did make the forgeries (very unlikely given his otherwise honest behavior in his life), then why did he wait 5 months for Mapes to "track him down" and only after she asked him if there was anything else did he offer them.

On the other hand, there is not room enough in this thread to impart all the dirty dishonest election tricks and outright frauds Mr. Stone (and his wife) have perpetrated upon the American public.

Finally, after the Swift Boats ad began dragging Kerry through the mud, Burkett called Max Cleland on August 21 and sent him the memos, but the Kerry campaign didn't bite. Then the CBS producer "tracked him down".

In any case, now that we have the theory, we must find the point where Roger Stone and Rove made a mistake. Criminals always make mistakes, my dear DU.

The perfect crime does not exist...

[Dems Will Win]

49. The main mistake of the Rove gang appears to be that Stone

likely flew to Texas.

We need to see the airline manifests to Lubbock for early March 3, 2004, straight away!

[Dems Will Win]

51. Stone used his own credit cards for the sex ad with his wife

He admitted that.

Did he use the card again and his own Identity for the trip to Lubbock?

I think also it was a livestock event, maybe at the State Fair?

[oldtime dfl_er]

53. Great Work!!! Is there not a single Woodward or Bernstein

out there in media land, not one single young hungry journalist who wants to make a name for hm or herself, who coudl do some of the investigation on this? It has the potential, in the proper hands, to be a really huge and amazing story. Does anyone know a young hungry journalist with balls and desire? It would MAKE a reputation.

[Dems Will Win]

54. Haven't they all been bought off?

It's probably up to us--and Keith Olbermann of course!

I fear CBS will probably not touch this either.

[Dems Will Win]

56. kick

[K-W]

55. Do you have a source for the Nazi connection?

That they used this particular tactic?

Id be curious to read about it.

It just doesnt make any sense that anyone but the Bush team did this. There is no other plausible explenation short of gross incompetence by a myriad of people.

[Dems Will Win]

70. A FAKE DOCUMENT helped start the Nazi movement!

Hitler also read "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion", a FAKE document that was written by the pre-WWI russian royal secret police in a cynical attempt to divert public blame of Russia's trouble from the monarchy to the jews. The 'protocols' describe an imaginary conspiracy of rich jews to dominate the world by dominating countries like puppets and turning them against each other. Hitler, already a typical anti-semitic, believed every word.

http://www.2worldwar2.com/adolf-hitler.htm

[Dems Will Win]

57. Roger Stone's first dirty trick!

From JudiLyn:

After high school, Stone enrolled at George Washington University and took an apprenticeship with Chuck Colson at the Nixon outfit, the Committee to Re-Elect the President (later known, not so affectionately, as CREEP). There, Stone adopted a pseudonym and wrote a check to Pete McCloskey, a Republican congressman from California who had been spending time in New Hampshire, thinking of challenging President Nixon. The check came from a group calling itself the Young Socialists Alliance. When it cleared the bank, Stone ran to the press to embarrass his target. "I did some things, in retrospect, which were in terribly poor judgment," he told the Washington Post in 1986. In 1974, he lost a job in Bob Dole's Senate office after Jack Anderson wrote a column pinning Stone as a "dirty trickster."
(snip)
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_25_51/ai_58326762

Planting something inside an opposing campaign and then running to the press to embarass them is Roger Stone's M.O., his Modus Operandi, my dear DU.

[Dems Will Win]

58. And when Roger Stone worked with Al Sharpton as his campaign

manager, he was using a Democrat to defeat Democrats, just as he and Nydia used Bill Burkett.

If Stone went to Texas himself, Burkett can ID him.

What is Roger Stone's ALIBI for March 3, 2004??

(Although he could have had someone else give Burkett the envelope)

[Dems Will Win]

59. Rove, Stone and Atwater all go way back

Jolly bunch they are! From Do You Wonder:

"In the years of the Watergage scandal, Rove's career as a big-time political handler began with a motley crew of friends and associates. He was chairman of the College Republicans when George Herbert Walker Bush was chairman of the state Republican Party in 1973. He won the presidency of the College Republicans in a race against Terry Dolan. The late Lee Atwater, who later became famous as the political attack dog for the Reagan-Bush team, managed Rove's campaign. Dolan went on to become a Soft Money pioneer by helping form the National Conservative Political Action Committee, then died of AIDS in 1986 at age 36. Dolan's advisers in his loss to Rove were Charlie Black, Paul Manafort and Roger Stone. Those three were later instrumental in the success of Ronald Reagan's 1984 campaign.

Atwater joined the consulting firm of Black, Manafort and Stone after the '84 election. The firm later worked for the 1988 Bush-Quayle campaign. Two of Nixon's dirty tricksters also worked for Bush-Quayle: Frederick Malek, Bush's Republican National Committee rep, who had compiled lists of Jews in the Bureau of Labor Statistics as part of Nixon's investigation of a "Jewish Cabal;" and Dwight Chapin, who was jailed for lying to a grand jury about hiring Donald Sigretti to disrupt the 1972 Democratic primary campaign of Senator Edward Muskie. Chapin worked under Manafort in 1988. The firm's other clients included drug-connected Bahamian Prime Minister Oscar Pindling, Philippine dictator Ferdinand Marcos, and UNITA, the South African-supported Angolan rebel group led by CIA asset Jonas Savimbi. Lee Atwater lobbied for UNITA. All of which began when Atwater was introduced to George Bush in 1973, by his good friend Karl Rove."

http://www.famoustexans.com/karlrove.htm


The Unknown Man and Lucy Ramirez??

[Dems Will Win]

60. Oh and Stone is making tens of millions of dollars as payback

for he and Nydia's sterling performance in Miami to steal the election with that little riot! THis shows that when Baker and Rove need someone for the really tough, sleazeball jobs, they turn to Roger and Nydia Stone:

-snip-

Despite Stone's sordid past, former secretary of state James Baker, who was coordinating the 2000 Bush recount operation in Florida, tapped him to run its street operations. Stone has been credited in television and book accounts with putting together the mixed mob of Cuban and congressional-aide protesters who prevented the count in Miami—universally seen as the turning point in the battle that made Bush president. Out of sight in both a Winnebago and the building across the street, Stone ordered the shutdown. "I said, yes, break the door down," Stone told the Voice. "It was only when the Democratic commissioners removed the ballots that you had a near riot." Stone now says that "after" this Miami performance, he was "asked if I wanted to serve on the transition."

The Stone prospectus, which is titled "Indian Gaming Opportunities," contains a bio that features Baker's "recruiting" of him for the Florida recount and discloses that he "subsequently served on the Presidential Transition" for Interior. It even contends that Stone "was involved in selecting appointees for that department for the present administration." A brief introduction makes five references to Interior's role and twice as many to "federal" powers in Indian gaming, concluding, "We believe that based on our superior political contacts we could win all necessary approvals in a time between 8 and 16 months."

-snip-

Told that Stone had boasted to gaming associates that Cheney himself called after Miami-Dade to ask what Stone wanted, Sansonetti, the former Republican National Committeeman from Cheney's home state of Wyoming, said: "It would not surprise me if Cheney contacted him separately. I'm sure he knows Roger and knew that he would have a lot to contribute to the transition in general." Stone says he doesn't remember who called him: "I filled out a form with the areas in which I wanted to serve. I checked the box for Interior and served with about 40 other people." He says he's "met Cheney" but is not a friend of his.

-snip-

THis is an awesome article with lots of new info!

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0416/barrett.php

Thanks to Star Route! Good Show!

[Dems Will Win]

62. Another very similar dirty trick by Stone from 2002 using Time magazine!

And then he denies it! By Jupiter! From George_S:

http://news.ncmonline.com/news/view_article.html?article_id=313


-snip-

The charge of very poor judgment in allowing or at least not seeing the implications of a friend who might use his name to solicit lobbying business in California Indian country must land squarely on Smith’s shoulders. Letters sent to various tribes by Smith’s former law partner, Phillip M. Bersinger, a Sacramento consultant, flaunted his close friendship with Smith, "the guy who actually runs the BIA and is in charge of making most of the policy and administrative decisions." In yet another case, Smith had taken Bersinger to at least one meeting with tribal representatives (Buena Vista Miwok, February 19), after which tribal agents reported that Bersinger solicited the tribe to represent them for $25,000 a month and a negotiated percentage of their potential casino’s gross revenues.

The crass solicitation, which was refused by the tribe and might have gone unnoticed, turned into a walking disaster for Smith when the story of the letters, meeting and solicitation for seemingly exorbitant fees broke in Time Magazine on April 22. Since then, the inside political intrigue has grown rapidly.

-snip-

Another letter, allegedly by Bersinger to the Coushatta Tribe of Louisiana, was said to be fake, perhaps sent by political enemies to disrupt the career of a public official who might rule against or at least not act on their case in a tribal matter before the BIA./b] Smith publicly accused recently deposed leadership of the Buena Vista Rancheria, near Sacramento, of working directly against him in the matter. Nevertheless, other letters were verified to be true, and soon would-be lobbyist Bersinger became an "ex-friend" of Smith’s. It was then veteran political observer and Indian Country Today columnist, former BIA Director Kevin Gover, wondered out loud who might have given the original material in the case over to Time Magazine.

-snip-

Through a letter sent to Indian Country Today by his attorney, Stone has disputed the claim that he instigated the Time magazine story. "Mr. Stone believes that an individual by the name of Mike Copperthite is claiming to have provided the information to Time magazine at Mr. Stone’s instigation." The statement says this claim is "false in all respects."

[Dems Will Win]

63. Then there's this: How Stone planted a story to ruin Buchanan's run:

From JP Zenger:

-snip-

Both Buchanans say that the Washington Post's E.J. Dionne was the first reporter to chase the story at the beginning of 1992 (Dionne said he does not discuss stories he did not write). A week before Buchanan's 37 percent showing against a sitting Bush president in New Hampshire, Bay Buchanan asked Mackenzie to bring the 4 a.m. edition of the Post to her house. Relieved that no story about the child appeared, Buchanan, who says now that "the Bush campaign was pushing it," told aides about her fears. Within days, an aide was asked to make the deliveries to the lawyer—in five $10,000 chunks between February and April. The Buchanans also confirmed that Associated Press reporter John Solomon "was on the story" in late 1999 and early 2000, just as Trump and Stone were in mortal combat with Buchanan. Jay Townsend and Stephen Marks, two ex-Buchanan staffers, recalled being questioned about the child by AP reporters. Ex-AP reporter Jonathan Salant remembers looking "at all the Buchanan campaign filings to see if there were any funny payments" that might be connected to a child cover-up. Bay Buchanan, who talked to Solomon "at length," says he pressed her about the payments.

While Solomon will not discuss Stone's possible role in the story, Mattie Lolavar, a consultant with the Lichfield Group who was then on retainer for Stone, says he actively worked at "planting the story in 1999." Lolavar says she talked to and e-mailed Solomon at Stone's behest. While Stone blasts Lolavar as a "biased source" because she is now suing him in a breach of contract dispute, every reporter she initially identified as having ever been on the story was independently confirmed.

In addition to Dionne and Solomon, Lolavar said the Star's Richard Gooding, who broke the Dick Morris sex scandal, was contacted by an aide working for her. While Gooding would not confirm the source, he said he was tipped to the story and chased it unsuccessfully. Lolavar also said Insight, a publication of The Washington Times, talked to her about it, and a reporter there said he called Lolavar on a tip "via a third party who made it clear to us that this was a story Stone was pushing." Stone, says Lolavar, "kept telling me it's coming out Monday, it's coming out Friday," but Solomon eventually told her his sources "clammed up." Lolavar says Stone proudly told her that, beyond the press outreach, he "got a union to put flyers under the hotel doors" of Reform officials at one party meeting that said: "Ask Pat about the kid."

Lolavar could not specify when that pink and blue flyer might have been distributed, but party officials like press secretary Donna Donavan and ex vice-chair Patricia Benjamin recall it. Bay Buchanan says: "I remember getting a call or two saying this stuff was out there." Stone says "if there was a flyer, it wasn't from Roger Stone." By mid February, with the story in limbo, Trump quit the race and Buchanan's Pat Choate became party chair. Choate now says the Trump/Stone operation was "a Republican dirty trick," designed "to disgust people and drive them away from the Reform Party. They were doing everything in their power to make a mess. You had Ventura leaving and Trump all over TV saying that Buchanan loved Hitler, ignorant statements." Bay Buchanan, who stopped talking to Stone during the campaign, says she still "doesn't understand why he would want us in the Reform Party in the first place" and then assail Buchanan as a Nazi.

-snip-

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0420/barrett.php

"I remember getting a call or two saying this stuff was out there." Stone says "if there was a flyer, it wasn't from Roger Stone."

COMPARE THAT DENIAL WITH THIS DENIAL ON THE CBS DOCUMENTS:

"I have nothing whatsoever to do with this," Stone told USA TODAY. "I'm a firm believer in political hardball, but I draw the line at forged documents."

(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

[Zorbet55]

65. Wait a sec, Dem. What about this?

If Burkett was given copies of an original and the copies were forgeries, then why are the originals that were burned not forgeries also? I don't get this.

[Fiendish Thingy]

67. because the originals could have fingerprints...

That would identify Stone or whomever created them.
Is this going anywhere outside the blogshpere? Has Stone's history, or even name, been discussed anywhere in mainstream media?

[Dems Will Win]

69. Just Olbermann mentioned the NY Post story on this

But Terry McAuliffe brought it up too.

Clearly, we have a motive and lots of circumstantial evidence against Stone and his wife.

[Dems Will Win]

68. Rove and Bartlett had the original Killian memos

Killian's Secretary said she HAD typed those memos on an old Olympia manual typewriter. Knowing there were electric typewriters that could produce something that looked like what a word processor would produce, they forged the 6 Killian memos on a word processor. These were given to Stone who gave them to Burkett on March 3. Burkett then made copies of the forgeries and then burned the originals, for he thought he was protecting the honor of Lucy Ramirez, who made him promise that her name would NOT BE REVEALED.

That was the deal for obtaining what Burkett thought were real documents, and Burkett, being an honorable man of the South honoring a promise to a damsel in distress, BURNED THE ORIGINALS.

But he still had the copies of the 6 memos.

Which he then did nothing with--until the Swift Boat ads came out.

[Dems Will Win]

71. Has everyone sent out the e-mail blast to this thread??

[Dems Will Win]

72. kick

[Dems Will Win]

73. kick

[TexasBushwhacker]

74. PRESIDENT TOP GUN: AFFIRMATIVELY MISSING IN ACTION

The thing that gets me about Burkett is that he continues to blame CBS for "ruining his life", "I've received death threats", yada yada yada. Doesn't the guy realize he was set up too?

This is from an article that Greg Palast wrote LAST YEAR:

"But what the heck, Bush’s supporters respond that the man did at least he ‘serve his country’ in the Air Guard. Or did he? Questions have been raised over the years about whether the younger George, having nailed the cushy pilot seat, failed to report for duty. On camera, I spoke with Texas cattle rancher Bill Burkett, formerly a Lieutenant Colonel in the air guard. Seems that Burkett was in the office of the Guard’s Adjutant General when a call came in from then-Governor George W. Bush’s office. As is normal procedure, the call was put on the speaker box, but the request was not so normal. The Governor’s office was sending over an official biographer … and the Governor’s minions wanted to make sure the files did not contain not-so-heroic info. Burkett told me:

“I was in the General’s office, General Daniel James …. He gets a telephone call from Joe Albaugh, who was the Governor’s chief of staff, and Dan Bartlett … on the voice box … and they wanted General James to assemble all of the Governor’s files, that was going to write a book…. But Joe told General James, ‘Make sure there’s not anything in there that’ll embarrass the Governor.’”

And there wouldn’t be. Burkett asked if the general’s staff really intended to purge the files; and sure enough, as evidence of the affirmative reply, he was shown the piles of pay and pension records in the garbage pails destined for the shredders. Colonel Burkett did not run off with those files so we can only conclude this: the only evidence that Bush showed up for duty during the war is now missing. Military pay records are public records – and now they are conveniently unavailable."

http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=240&row=1

********************************************

Bushco effectively got one another trifecta. They hurt Burkett, who'd already gone on record about Bush's record with the TANG. They hurt CBS and by association, they hurt Kerry. I don't understand why Burkett doesn't realize that they had him in their crosshairs too. I've said it before and I'll say it again, he would do better to drop this lawsuit nonsense and cooperate with CBS. Ultimately, the real story is who forged the documents and who planted them with Burkett.

[Dems Will Win]

75. Exactly, follow the source!

In my humble estimation, Mr. Burkett did not forge them but someone else did.

That's why he's so mad!

[TexasBushwhacker]

76. I wrote to CBS

and told them that they need to talk to General James, since he was the one who was asked to purge the files. He is alive and well and now serving as the DIRECTOR of the ANG in Arlington, VA. When did he get this appointment? June, 2002

Here's his bio page:

http://www.af.mil/bios/bio.asp?bioID=5929

BTW, his father was the late Daniel "Chappie" James, Jr., one of the original Tuskegee Airmen, and the first African-American 4 Star General.

[Julien Sorel]

79. What's this? A conspiracy theory that makes sense?

I think I've been around this place too long.

[Dems Will Win]

80. Jolly good, what?