So, mention abortion at all, and people immediately start debating it

[More Than A Feeling]

Rather than actually read and comment on a suggestion about a change in the language used to describe our position, not a change in the position itself.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2411277&mesg_id=2411277

[alittlelark]

1. uh, yeah....

what forum should you be posting on ?

[More Than A Feeling]

2. I don't understand what you are trying to say.

I had a serious suggestion for helping us get the advantage in the abortion debate without having to change our position against banning it wholesale. That suggestion was drowned out by an immediate debate about the right or wrong of abortion, not whether we should make the language change or not.

[alittlelark]

3. uh, yeah....

Go Away

[athena]

7. Stop telling him to go away.

He makes a good point.

[alittlelark]

9. His point is divisive

My Fundie mom votes on one issue - abortion. Why do we get sooo many of these divisive issues now?


HELLO

[athena]

15. I think it's only divisive when people suggest

the democratic party should give up its pro-choice position to attract anti-choicers. I don't think we should be afraid of the abortion issue. I believe that most Americans are against making abortion illegal. Many people who claim to be "pro-life" would in fact not want abortion to be banned. They are simply under the impression that "pro-choice" means thinking that abortion is a good thing in itself. That's why I think that it's important to clear up the terminology. So this is a worthwhile thread.

[alittlelark]

16. Uh, hello...

Repukes need divisiveness - don't buy into it 40 days before an election

[wickerwoman]

8. I believe that's why the ignore button was invented.

You're just make the rest of us look bad with this shit. Alert if you think it's a disruptor, but either way you're just kicking these posts that you want to "go away".

[alittlelark]

10. Divisiveness in this election will cost far more lives than

abortion.

[wickerwoman]

53. And being rude and dismissive costs more votes

than taking the time to post thoughtful commentary.

And why are you doing your utmost to keep these "divisive" threads kicked to the top of the forum? Again, put them on ignore if your don't want to hear it. But it isn't your website and it sure as hell isn't your place to tell anybody to go away.

[Kipepeo]

4. For what it's worth

I agree with your original post in your first thread, though maybe not the same terms. I get the point though - and I agree with it - which is reclaiming the language of the abortion debate and revealing a political anti-choice agenda for what it is.

But you should know that abortion threads always devolve into debate over abortion itself.

[More Than A Feeling]

5. Thank you, I appreciate that.

I will remember that next time I feel like posting something like this.

[alittlelark]

12. My Fundie - mom loves ya!

[More Than A Feeling]

13. Sweet, maybe she will turn to our side

if I ever run for office

[alittlelark]

18. She's been there since 1972 when we

had to join a wacko group to be saved from the ??????


And she was ecstatic on 9/11 - RAPTURE AHEAD!!!!

[More Than A Feeling]

20. I can't possibly understand what it must be like to deal with that

but for what is worth, I am sorry you are having to go through that

edit for clarity

[alittlelark]

27. yeah,

[alittlelark]

36. feeeeeeeed....must eat

[Kipepeo]

38. ummm...you're doing quite the bit of 'feeding' for one so against eating

:eyes:

[alittlelark]

40. how are those calories tastin'

Hopin for hypoglycemia.

[Kipepeo]

43. Do you have a point?

Other than bad puns on calories = posts?

I mean it's OBVIOUS you have something to say on this issue, otherwise you wouldn't be bumping it nonstop in every thread with one-liner insults to those who *are* discussing.

So...spit it out. You'll feel better to get it off your chest.

[REP]

44. My Sources Say "No"

Just read the posts in this thread.

I've explained it to her in clear language ... to which she responded that she was going to bed. I think she wants a fight, and since there isn't one here, she is determined to start one.

[athena]

46. Well, in her profile, it says:

"Ignore postings on Fri and Sat after midnight PST."

[alittlelark]

45. DISRUPTOR'S

DIVISIVENESS DEVOLUTION ....any questions?

[REP]

49. Plurals Do Not Take Apostrophes

Should be "Disruptors" not "Disruptor's."

HTH, HAND

[alittlelark]

51. my deepest apologies

really.

[flaminbats]

54. I humbly confess..

I'm guilty!!! :cry:

[Kipepeo]

55. ok, if that's what you think this poster is then I understand I guess

But why keep bumping him/her without discussing?

Personally, I'm about as angry-ass pro-choice 'you'll-have-to-pry-my-uterus-from-my-cold-dead-hands' as you can get but I don't think this poster was meaning to disrupt or divide (just my opinion) on the issue.

I think s/he was talking about how to re-frame the debate in order to take back ground/opinion in the public debate. NOT about changing our platform or some insidious anti-choice troll who comes in like "hey guys ~ ever think of this? abortion kills babeees! ~" but someone who was talking about how to better frame the public discourse on abortion (which the Republicans have a lot of ground on currently....with their whole merging of personally-pro-life = politically-anti-choice ideology).

There is a good book out now about framing debate called "Don't Think of an Elephant! Know Your Values and Frame the Debate'" by George Lakoff...I haven't gotten it yet but it's what I've been waiting for I think. :)

[alittlelark]

67. I think you made a good point

talk to me in the morning

[Swamp Rat]

68. Don't let the alien lizards get ya! You never know who might be one.

[alittlelark]

48. Here it is

:puke:

[MissMarple]

6. Don't take it personally.

The issue has become such a wedge that a lot of folks have become polarized. It has become one of George's "yur either with us or agin us" issues. This makes a sane discussion difficult. And, I did post on your thread. Like religion, this is an issue that government should step away from. IMHO. :D

But that doesn't mean we should quit trying for a sane and reasoned discussion, as KWolf did attempt.

[athena]

11. I agree that "pro-life" is a misnomer.

My perspective is that we need to get rid of the term "pro-life" completely. It only leads to confusion, which is what the right wants. There are so many pro-choicers here who claim that they are pro-life, because they don't think abortion is a good thing. The whole point of the term "pro-life" is to imply that the pro-choice position is anti-life.

As I said on the other thread, I think that every time an anti-choicer claims to be pro-life, we pro-choicers should reply, "apparently not pro-life of the woman." We should insist on calling them "anti-choice" or "anti-woman".

The term "pro-choice" is also misleading. I think we should call ourselves "pro-woman" or "pro-reproductive-rights". It's ironic that republicans, who traditionally think that the government should stay out of people's affairs, are so anxious to get the government involved when the subject is reproductive rights or gay marriage.

[alittlelark]

14. If we got rid of pro-life it would include those dying in Iraq?

The term means one thing - pro-life. \


How could ANY pro-lifer excuse war (but I'm sure you won't)

[More Than A Feeling]

17. Because some things are worth dying for.

Not the Iraq war, but World War II? That was a war worth fighting, and yes, even dying in.

(Mind you, this is easy for me to say, not having had to fight in any war yet, and I freely admit that. But you did ask how I might justify it)

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[athena]

23. Oh please.

I started a thread in this forum about abortion terminology on my first or second day here (and later I realized it was a mistake). It doesn't prove anything.

[More Than A Feeling]

24. Thank you, Athena

Glad to know someone else has been there. You can bet I won't do this again

[alittlelark]

25. I'll give you MY personal bottom line

Abortion in the first trimester - always accepted
Abortion in the 2nd trimester - with counseling only
Abortion in the third trimester - only in the event of adverse effect on the health of mother/fetus



I hate adding to your arguement, but many others here have.

[REP]

28. Please Read Roe v Wade and Doe v Bolton

YOU don't get to decide who "needs" counseling and who doesn't. If these are your guidelines for you only, great!

You are not adding to the point of this thread, but starting a new and pointless argument.

[alittlelark]

31. Guess I'll go to sleep then.

[REP]

47. You Are Looking For a Fight Where None Exists

Neither this thread nor the other one was about setting limits on contraception or abortion. They are about co-opting the language used by those who oppose reproductive rights. They call themselves "pro-life," but they are in fact NOT pro-life. People who are in favor of women making up their own minds about what to do with their reproductive lives are actually pro-life; we want those women and their families to live and to be healthy.

You are ignoring any response that explains this, and talking about "counseling" for second-trimester abortions and telling people to go away. You are not participating in the discussion at hand; rather, you are trying to pick a fight. Why?

[athena]

52. Ahem. I think

perhaps alcohol might be involved here?

[REP]

57. You May Be Right

Might explain an answer (:puke:) given above.

[athena]

58. See post #46.

[alittlelark]

61. Yes, you are correct , we are having a great tim w/Cherie (who is Iranian)

and has been laughing for 2 hours - ya got me But the thing is Cherie posts here (rarely) and is itching for SOMETHING> Her cousin is the Shah's wife, But she was sent here because of her fathers concerns, She went to a Jewish school because of her fathers fears of religious fundamentalism She is perhaps the person that should be stopped by an airline???


GO AWAY and GET A LIFE are virtually synonymous anymore.




PS - If you want to talk to Cheri PM (and you better be for real)

[alittlelark]

62. My reply sounds harsh, I do not mean it to be so

My reply will be done by Cheri (US) or her brother (Iran)....we are just observing. But if you consider this to be a fake - it is all being recorded for the media.....all those of honest souls, enjoy.

[flaminbats]

63. I believe ya..I think

good night!;)

[alittlelark]

64. good night to all

and THINK.

[Kipepeo]

41. well lark, you're more conservative than I am on the issue

Because I don't believe anyone needs to have legally mandated "counseling" before choosing abortion.

So please stop accusing me (and others) of "feeding" okay?

thx

[alittlelark]

65. I am posting only from personal experience.

[athena]

21. No, of course not.

I mean get rid of it in the context of reproductive rights. The term causes infinite confusion in this context. Since nobody is pro-abortion or anti-life, the term pro-life doesn't belong.

I agree that people who call themselves "pro-life" should be challenged. Do they feel as badly about women dying in botched abortions or suicides when a condom breaks or the pill fails? Do they feel as badly about innocent people being executed when a jury makes a mistake? What do they think about all the people dying in Iraq? How exactly do they feel about children dying when a sick kid gets hold of a gun?

[alittlelark]

30. Athena - your avatar disturbs me

sooo very much

[athena]

33. WTF?

First, you tell a relatively new DUer to "go away".
Next, you post your not-so-relevant and not-so-pro-choice point of view on a thread about pro-choice terminology.
Then, you tell me that my wonderful Gloria Steinem avatar disturbs you.

I don't get it.

[REP]

35. You And Me Both!

alittlelark doesn't seem to understand that prayforsane wants to co-opt the LANGUAGE, not the position.

The Right has been co-opting 'our' (lefties) language for years; I agree that turnabout is fair play; I also agree that Pro-Choice is really about the lives and well-being of women and their families ... not so sure about actually using "pro-life," though - the last people who wore that label made it stink.

[athena]

39. You are so eloquent!

:yourock:

[alittlelark]

66. a littlelark and her co-posters say

yeah , because we choose our reality. NONE of you are allowed to do it for us. If you wish to PM and we will explain it to you.

[REP]

69. No, Thanks

If I want to listen to that sort of thing, there are some inebriated fellows around town who can talk for hours about chemtrails and their own realities at length. I avoid them, too.

[alittlelark]

50. Get it.

[athena]

59. You are having too much fun. LOL.

Good night!

[K-W]

22. Pro-life is not a very useful term in an open debate.

Nobody is ever going to argue an anti-life position.

[REP]

26. Chem Trails in Los Altos Again?

What the original poster is saying is co-opt their LANGUAGE, not the position.

Sane people know that the anti-abortion assholes who call themselves "pro-life" are no such thing. They are not for promoting life; they are for controlling the sexual behavior of women.

The original poster is suggesting that we takeover their phrase, since pro-choicers are actually interested in the lives and health of women and their families. People who think women should make up their own minds about reproductive decisions are all of these things: pro-choice, pro-life, pro-contraception, pro-healthcare. We call ourselves "pro-choice" usually since it does sum up the heart of the position.

Perhaps you should consider moving to Mountain View. Our air is clean!

[More Than A Feeling]

29. You understand! Thank you.

I am going to bed. Good night, all. I may be here in the morning, I may not. If not, I will continue to lurk, because I enjoy this board very much.

Go Kerry!

[athena]

34. Good night!

Please come back, and don't just lurk. It's so much better to make thoughtful comments than to constantly post the same message over and over, telling a relative newcomer to go away.

(I bet I'll be flamed next -- since I don't have many more posts than you.)

[REP]

37. You Both Come Back!!

Welcome to DU (by the way)!

[sandnsea]

32. Right to medical privacy

Nobody cares when blastocysts pass through a woman's body during menstruation. It's a bunch of cells, it's a woman's decision, nothing more needs to be said about it. We need to stop worshipping cells, that's what we need to do.

[flaminbats]

42. it surprises me how often I agree with people in fights about abortion..

and thanks to Roe v Wade, we can now walk away without being executed!

[FlemingsGhost]

56. You had to start a new thread?

Yawn ..... Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ....

[earthmuffin1970]

60. I just do not think it will work...

I think with the way our media is so married to its hotbutton, catch-all phrases that I don't think trying to change the lingo of the debate will happen. Look at the whole use of the term "partial birth abortion". Even though that is not the true name of the procedure, it is what even the media refers to it as..I find that scary!It is language that is biased in and of itself.

If you look at it from the perspective of a rational, thinking, compassionate person, of course everyone is pro-life (with the exception of your sociopathic serial killers and the like!).

So, we can try to change the language, but abortion is an issue that will continue to be something that will be an issue in our country that people will not agree on.