My experience debating righties online

[SHRED]

It usually goes like this:

We start out debating an issue and they can't help but get into personal attacks.
It seems like they can't see a difference between a differing viewpoint and the person. Maybe the view taken pisses them off so badly that they are unable to keep themselves from going personal. They don't know what else to do with their energy building up inside since most righties are emotional based regarding Iraq and facts piss them off.

[ihaveaquestion]

1. Same for me.

I usually call them on it as soon as possible and then debate their points. Works to get an apology sometimes, but usually I get a rationalization or a "I didn't mean it to sound negative," as if calling someone stupid or deluded was somehow meant to be positive or helpful.

Yeah, that's it - they're just trying to be helpful! :D

[undergroundpanther]

15. It's

Their personality type. They cannot admit they might be mistaken

Narcissists think they make no mistakes and they are entitled to dominate people and there is no room in their world for anyone different.They want everyone like themselves because it makes them feel secure.

Freepers are not the only place to find these kinds of rigid personalities,and ambitions sometimes People like this go to tenure in academia or law,TV personalities,actors, where they can always be right as an"expert"or talent,where they can reassure themselves others must simply be less than they are. Sometimes these people go to religion where they can with impunity tell everyone who questions their vision or disagrees how wrong they are about reality because the person will not see god as they see god. Watch the type of person that gravitates to positions of power and you might find a difference in people there ,from those who MUST be in power position to feel secure about who they think they are and those who don't need power to be secure in who they are.

One type of personality can easily admit they make mistakes and can fail and that other views exist and might be legit too they don't hinge their personal worth on control of their environment...The other type of personality resists this kind of humility at every turn because humility looks weak to them,like they might lose power,and so this type of person, projects all sorts of stuff upon the questioner,he turns arrogant and makes personal attacks because his claim to authority is ultimately a show an illusion an excuse to pose as better than the scapegoat of the week..If during the course of a political/religious or whatever argument he fears his illusion of superiority been undermined and he feels insecure and overwhelmed by people who make sense,he sees it as losing pre eminence,being defeated... but he is too narcissistic to admit he may be mistaken even to himself in his black or white world. So he does what any insecure neurotic does when his ego is threated by someone else, he blames the questioner making him frustrated with emotional attacks,he tries to make the questioner feel inferior or crazy for having a opposite view ,as if thinking differently exists to make the freeper look crazy or inferior to the'public' the culture that he thinks sees him as an authority,the 'fellows' who stroke his quivering fragile ego with their soothing submissive sameness. The narcissistic freeper would rather act like an asshole than ever lose status among sycophants,lose status among those he apes,invalidate his false sense of entitlement in his own head, or give up control of the other person,the conversation ect...and agree to disagree.

He can't exist alongside with anything that might be his opposite he denies might exist inside himself too,(projection) so he must destroy it, invalidate it,humiliate it, or co-opt it as part of his own beliefs.
To fail to do this with what another person believes means he only has just one view among many views and so has no inherent specialness deserving of social rewards beyond anyone else's.He has no special authority or entitlement to power or status among people.He is not all that and a bag of chips.
So he acts like a bully.That is one way to avoid looking"weak" when his ego and arguments are weak and are shown to be weak.

That reality is complex,interdependent,compromising, and out of their control scares the shit out of people with these kinds of narcissistic personalities.

[SHRED]

27. Nicely put

I like this one,
"That reality is complex,interdependent,compromising, and out of their control scares the shit out of people with these kinds of narcissistic personalities."

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. The personal attack

is part of their tools

they know they cannot win on the isues, hence they distract and they go aftrer the person, nothing personal mind yuo. They will even sink friendships, by calling YOU insane becaue you have a different point of view

Nothing personal.

Really

Again people should read The True Believer or the Banality of Evil

[sangh0]

9. It's about creating a "bandwagon effect"

If the Freeper can make a funny crack about you, maybe others will join in with him/her in ridiculing you, which is more fun than thinking about the issues.

[ihaveaquestion]

3. My thread on another board - this subject

Just today I started a thread on another board on this very subject. Check it out - http://forums.sptimes.com/Forums/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=15&t=010558

Let me know if you can't read it.

[Ready4Change]

4. My 2 cents.

It's not that they can't see the difference between the viewpoint and the person, nor that an opposing viewpoint pisses them off.

Their problem is that their talking points are easily debunked when stood up against opposing viewpoints. That's frustrating, because when they originally heard those talking points they seemed so rock solid. (Right wing radio never allows a deeper probing of their own talking points, so their shallowness is never revealed.)

Faced with the collapse of their arguements they are left with a choice between either acknowleging their loss or going into personal attacks.

[TahitiNut]

7. It's not unusual for someone to equate their opinion to their self.

Americans in particular have trouble separating what we do from who we are. It has been long-recognized overseas that one of the very first questions Americans ask is "what do you do?"

Americans tend to think of ourselves as "human doings" instead of "human beings."

This can be seen on DU. We often see DUers apparently unable to distinguish between an attack on the message and an attack on the messenger. Not all of these are interlopers.

That said, I am increasingly of the opinion that support for the Bush Cabal is an indication of mental pathology - a character issue.

Never before in our history has there been a clearer example of outright cowardice in the Presidency. They're afraid of the truth - and resort to lies and repression. They're afraid of each other - and impose Draconian loyalty tests. They're afraid of possessing less - and obsess over 'ownership.' They're afraid. That fear translates easily into hate and anger.

[Arianrhod]

11. I agree with the cowardice charge.

Fear is the basis of everything these people are doing.

The best defense against their tactics and criminal activities is to not be afraid.

[Booster]

22. I also found that ignoring them drives them crazy.

And that somehow is ok with me. ha

[Comadreja]

5. It's a microcosm of the national "debate"

Besides resorting to personal attack, I have caught them using bogus facts or repeating proven lies, much like Cheney's shameless insistence on the existence of WMDs up to a week ago. They simply retreat into this world of spin like Bush and his imaginary "Bizarro" Iraq under Allawi. Finally, they just start to ignore you or retreat to another forum.

"Iran...you're next"

[Bandit]

6. It is a form of bullying. They are a Party that revels in intimidation

It is practiced at the highest echelons of the Republican establishment. They are Bullies and revel in it. Facts mean nothing to them. They want to watch you squirm or even cry. It gives them an orgasm to hurt people. Rush Limbaugh is a Prime Example.

[TahitiNut]

10. Bullying is the behavior of COWARDS.

Their 'leader' is the coWard of craWford. When he runs away and they 'follow,' he's called a 'leader.'

[dumpster_baby]

8. It is not about convincing them, but spreading Leftist memes

You should not be too worried about winning or convincing them, but be mindful that other people are reading your exchange as well. Some of the ideas you throw out will stick in their brains, and that is how you build a paradigm, a worldview, a memeset.

Just keep churning out the Leftist talking points. Be polite, cite reasonable URLS to support your views. THis is a propaganda war that has been going on for decades.

But we on the left have not been invited to the mass media table -- the corporate dollars have had their way for decades. Now finally with the Internet, at least we have some voice for leftist memes. And as more Americans get broadband internet, the content that we can deliver will be more sophisticated. Pretty soon, instead of just arguing with the Freepers online, we can make documentaries and upload them onto the internet, to be downloaded and viewed by everyone.

Now, excuse me, I have to continue learning how to use Vegas Video, a video/audio editing software....

[TahitiNut]

12. Rent and watch the movie "Network"

:shrug: Paddy Chayevsky had their number three decades ago.

[ihaveaquestion]

16. Agreed

"Just keep churning out the Leftist talking points. Be polite, cite reasonable URLS to support your views. "

This is what I try to do on the local (Tampa Bay/St. Pete) board that I post on. It's usually fun and satisfying.

[Evergreen Emerald]

17. Dehumanized

The right-wing has spent generations dehumanizing "liberal" such that it now has nearly a universal negative connotation. Once dehumanized it becomes and us-versus-them mentality making it easier to ridicule, hate, disregard. I hear it daily on radio and television.

The other day as I posted on a different string, as I was driving home from work, I turned on a right-wing radio talk show (of which were are inundated in WA)as a female caller was talking about her three-year-old daughter who loves George Bush. The mother was giggling and explaining that her says that John Kerry is going to "kill her." I heard the little girl in the back ground.

As the moderator and the mom cooed about how cute that three-year-old's statement was, I was stunned. How awful for a little girl--who believes everything her mother tells her and is extremely literal at that age--to have such fear of another person. She thinks John Kerry is going to kill her. That extreme, idiotic mother has become the mainstream in America. And I have become a "them."

The radical right wing divide America by reinforcing the us-versus-them mentality. They dehumanize "liberal" as evil and un-American. Once dehumanized it is easier to hate and discount and ridicule "them."

[A_Possum]

13. At this point, I do equate my opinion with myself

At this point, it's not just opinion, it's a whole issue of ethics and morality. I am judging people's character by their political explanations, because the issues of Iraq and Bush are pretty black-and-white to me in ethical and moral terms. The final resort to religion, that those Muslims should just be nuked before they nuke us first, as an excuse from an otherwise apparently rational and feeling person just makes me despise them.

Maybe this makes me like a winger. If so, too bad.

[onethatcares]

21. It's not an opinion at all,

it boils down to how you live your life. I can't list the ways I want to be remembered, causing harm to others just doesn't rank up there in the top 100.

[Arianrhod]

14. It's even worse when speaking to them in person

because they tend to use all the Limbaugh/O'Reilly tricks: screaming, ranting, changing the subject, interrupting, not allowing the other person to speak at all. Throwing out so many different ideas in a long stream-of-lunatic-consciousness spew that it's impossible to address all of them, so that they then sit back with that chimp smirk as you try to unravel everything they've said. Normally--IME--nothing they've said is coherent or logical, or even pertains to reality, for that matter.

I believe these people are mentally and emotionally ill.

[WolverineDG]

18. Same thing on the phone

i have a friend who called me at work the other day...apparently she felt she wasn't creating enough conflict at work, so she started off calling me a flip flopper, then shortened it to "flipper." when i told her to cut it out & that bush was the real flip flopper, she said "i'm only kidding, you can call me something too." so i said "ok, f**k up."

the conversation digressed to the point where she was making veiled threats that i didn't want to "mess with her" because she was part German & we all know what Germans are capable of. I said "yes i do as my uncle was a pow in germany during wwii and my grandmother ran an agency that helped displaced persons, mostly jews, find jobs & housing in the us after the war. now your vote makes sense. Seig Heil." and hung up.

she then went & complained to another friend that i had called her a nazi & got pissed when that friend thought the whole thing was hysterically funny. i don't think she's going to be calling me again.

dg

[SHRED]

19. Yeah that's another thing

They don't want to "own up" when they provoke on a personal level.
They use phrases like, "Just kidding" or "Lighten up I was just joking".
Damn weasels.

[LunaC]

20. Having once done time on a heavy Repug board

.....there was only ONE poster who'd engage in honest discussion while all the rest were the most hateful, vile, juvenile, demented, illogical and venomous miscreants I've ever encountered. My last post was a rant on "Hate is not a Christian value" and then they banned me. LOL. It was great fun and exactly what I anticipated so there were no disappointments in that regard. Nevertheless, my warrior days of direct confrontation with Freeper-types are over.....I've remembered to never try to teach a pig to sing - it wastes your time and annoys the pig!

[TexasSissy]

23. Me, too!!!! Thank heaven for DU!!!!

I post on a bipartisan forum. Although there are a few extremists on both sides, for the most part, it is the Repubs who post the personal, vile, name-calling, narrow-minded, mean posts that are not about issues usually, but hateful posts toward another poster or toward Kerry or some other person.

They see absolutely no point but their own. They recognize no other viewpoint. They recognize no flaw whatsoever in * or Cheney. They mention Bill and Hillary (they usu. say "Hitlary") Clinton ad nauseum, as if they are running for office. They call the Kerry supporters "Dims" or "leftie liberals" or "leftie liberal commies." They post things such as, "Osama bin Laden urges support for Kerry," "Terrorists favor Kerry in upcoming election," "The Marxist Party has endorsed Kerry" and the like. It's useless trying to discuss the issues with them.

One VERY TELLING POINT....they refer to the TAX CUTS over and over and over. I have the definite impression that they have been, in essence, paid off, via tax cuts, to support anything that Bush does. That's the type of people they are. They will sign away their civil liberties, accept that Bush's policies are harming the environment (they won't admit it, but any idiot can SEE that), accept that Bush's policies are hurting the less-advantaged, but they really don't care. As long as they get their tax cuts. It's not a real difference in opinion on issues. They don't discuss the environmental policy or whatever. They just reply with hateful messages and mention the tax cuts as evidence of a sound economic policy, blah, blah, blah.

[dumpster_baby]

24. I took on dozens of rightwingers on slashdot today

There was a huge thread there today about "The Job Crunch".
Here are some of my posts today:
http://slashdot.org/~Cryofan

www.Slashdot.org is probably the 2nd biggest online forum, behind www.fark.com

Slashdot is a technical forum, but there are lots of politically oriented threads there, generally as computer technology relates to issues of personal freedom, trade, employment, etc. There are lots of young people there, and it is worthwhile to spend some time there educating them. Also a lot of free trade rightwingers, esp. of the libertarian variety.

Fark is kind of fun forum with huge threads playing off of current events and weird news.

The war we are fighting is a propaganda war, and right now, the internet is our best avenue to disseminate leftwing viewpoints.

[seabeyond]

25. always goes to name calling

so consistant. i wonderful if they do repug talk 101. even old men. amazes me

[booley]

26. The personal attacks don't bother me so much

...becuase I admit I am opiniated myself. But I base my opinions on what I have learned and my opinions have changed over time as I have learned new things.

I am also not beyond what would be called personal attacks myself. When I see somebody making a stupid argument, I say so 'that's a stupid argument" when I see somebody consistenly making idiotic posts, I will point out 'Hey, this guy is an idiot'

To me the name calling is not the problem. It'' thier total disregard for facts or even common sense.

many times a freeper and I have "talked" about an issue. They say something that is not true. Possibly a factual error (Saddam could make WMDs in 2003)or maybe just a logical fallacy (we had to invade and kill lots of iraqis becuase Saddam was killing lots of iraqis. )

I or my compatriots point out the error or the fallacy.

Then the freeper will do two things..

1. he may try to "prove' he was right with more false facts, logical fallacies (especially proving the negative..I lost count how many times I was told I had to prove there wasn't any WMDs in Iraq) or discredited sources (becuase to a Freeper, some guy's private website is far more credible then say.. a federal agency in charge of collecting such data) I actually had one guy claim that Tim Daly's site was proof that global warming was bogus. meanwhile, he said the data I had gotton from the National Academy of Sciences couldn't be trusted becuase the NIS was a Liberal political group?!
and lastly my favorite, they will go off topic and try to use that to prove thier original assertion . Again, an example with one freeper, in an arguement about whether we should drill for oil in ANWAR, the freeper claimed that we should becuase ANWAR was a vaste wasteland filled with oil. His proof? Alaska is cold and snowy in the winter and colder then Missouri.
OR..

2. They just ignore you and keep repeating the lie over and over and over. as if repetition will somehow make it true.

It's almost as if they are aware of thier own stupidity and are trying to bash you in the head with it until you get too frustrated to argue anymore.

[Jade Fox]

28. Its what they have learned from RW pundits...

like Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter. I don't think they have any other
reference for debate. Limbaugh works in a world where he is never
contradicted by anyone with serious disagreements, so I think these
righties expect the same thing. They are shocked and enraged when
presented with contradictory facts and fall back on the snearing and
mocking styles of their idols.

[MrPrax]

29. It Goes Deeper Than Ad Homs...

The current Left/Progressive is going to always be at a disadvantage for a couple of reasons;

1) Lefties tend to seek the Truth (reactive) and the Right tend to seek advantage and power
2) Lefties tend to protect Democracy and 'liberal' ideals and the Right tend to protect the Republic and it's Ideals

To use an analogy that X used whe discussing the tactics of MLK and 'preaching love'--why bother preaching 'love', it's their own Bible, their own philosophy and they don't even follow it...how can you use the language of 'love' to a people who don't understand that language, you can't communicate with them.

Many on the Left don't really get the fact that much of what is called the Right goes beyond partisan rhetoric...

The Right see things like Democracy as simply a tool 'the weak, the liberal, the coward, the foreigner, the unAmerican' uses to manipulate them and frustrate their Ideals.

The Right tend to believe that something called the 'Left' has been actively undermining America and the World for perhaps a fifty years, a hundred years...dare maybe a thousand years.

If the Right follow the 'rules' of debate, then this is merely a 'trick' that the Liberals uses to gain advantage.

Of course with such a mindset it becomes perfectly acceptable to ignore the 'rules' of debate or morality, civil society or democracy, for that matter. It becomes self-justifying to the Right and it places THEM in the victim 'protector' role.

The Left doesn't get a few things about the Right (esp the one conjured and incubated since the Reagan Error)

1) The Right tend to have a religious cosmology that informs their secular roles and importance

2) Things like Nazis tend to be problematic in their analysis, as Nazis/Vietnam were a necessary evil to stop Communism

3) The Right tends to view their own personal struggles as those of History itself; a Manifest Destiny

4) The Right in America (as in some western quarters) actually LIKE the projection of American Power in the world and really don't care whether the Emperor/Pope was wrong on this or that little gnat-tish point that a 'liberal' might point out

5) The Right tend to be very realistic on the economic forces that conduct the affairs of the world; if WE control the oil, then WE get to use the oil--so what if a few men run the planet, that's the way it has always been, etc etc

Finally...
6) The speech Orson Welles gave on the Ferris Wheel in The Third Man was about them and they believed it

...so what if a few 'dots' go missing on the road to the Human Promise Land/Purity of the Republic...there are an awful lot of 'dots' anyway and some of them probably deserved it...

So if you are using the Language of Love, Decency, Humanity and Truth with these folks, you are wasting your time converting them.

Always post online for the benefit of the 'silent ones' and always show the inevitablilty of the Right's own Logic; death horror and descruction forever and for the innocent.