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dave502d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-25-04 08:49 PM
Original message
What If Bush Wins
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-25-04 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
1. It will take me awhile to read all these
But here's my essay:

If the American people elect that drooling idiot they get what they deserve for the next four years. And I will be a lot more cold-hearted toward Americans who piss and moan about the consequences of their vote for Bush (or failure to vote). It will be chickens come home to roost, and I do not hesitate to say "I told you so" to errant people.
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fortyfeetunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
30. Took the words right out of my mouth
Yeah, I hope the all the fowl come home to roost so I can give that "Ah Told Ya So" look to the Pugs I know.
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childslibrarian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-25-04 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
2. Hey I'm in a union
and I really feel sorry for anyone who isn't. They are going to be really sorry they voted for a guy who is out to screw the middle class.
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HannibalBarca Donating Member (269 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-25-04 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Good essays.
"And as for dividing the world between friends and foes, the Bush team--like all its predecessors--has found itself stuck dealing regularly with those inconvenient cases in the middle. Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are both crucial contributors to the problems the United States faces in the greater Middle East and crucial allies in combating them. China is both an authoritarian rising power and a major U.S. trading partner which is gradually liberalizing. Europe can be both a royal pain and a vital source of support. The Bush administration has learned the hard way that the world is full of gray areas and that an inability to "do nuance" is not an asset but a liability"

Excellently put.
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Cats Against Frist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-25-04 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
14. No Joke
It's always puzzled me why Republicans hate unions -- I mean, other than that they're corporatists who worship Mammon -- but if they hate government so much, a union is an example of a non-governmental organization of people, looking out for their rights.

Technically, right now unions have laws to back them up, but if this was a "union country" where no brainwashed scabs existed -- the unions wouldn't need the government.

It seems that it's not really government-backed labor unions that the GOP hates -- it's actually any attempt at people coming together to make their situation better. What glory.
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otohara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-25-04 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
3. No Longer Will The Rest of the World Say...
we like American's, it's Bush we hate. The world will despise all American's for being so utterly stupid.
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gordianot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-25-04 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
19. World opinion is already sliding.
American media is doing the "sugar coating".
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-25-04 09:10 PM
Response to Original message
4. Can yuo spell civil war
I know some think we are exagerating, we are in the midst of a very cold one, can you say HOT civil War within the next 10 yaers, or outright revolution
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AG78 Donating Member (840 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-25-04 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. Either way
If Bush wins, we take another step toward whatever this corporate/religous movement has in mind.

If Kerry wins, the cuture war gets turned up 10 notches to an unbearable level.

Then there's the Senate and House we have to worry about.

I'm worried about getting through November 3rd no matter who wins.
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catbert836 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-25-04 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
6. I Guess We'll just Keep on Keepin' On
Remember after the Reagan left office? He left a lot of crap for us to clean up but we cleaned it up all the same. I guess that's what we'll have to to if * wins. But we all might have to take a 4 year vacation to Canada.
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Crachet2004 Donating Member (725 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-25-04 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
7. If we cannot beat George Bush, after all the shit he has pulled...
And the LIES he has told, then I am going to throw my support to the Netroots...the PROGRESSIVE Netroots.

Because that is what I am going to blame our defeat on-what Howard Dean called trying to beat Bush by being Bush-lite.

Dean had it right on so many different fronts-but the corporate media GOT him. They damn sure did.

Soooo....we start over. Maybe we are called the Democratic Party, and maybe something else-but the important thing, is the DLC and ALL their inspiration has got to GO. Either they go, or I go...and this time I have an option, and it isn't the Greens.

There is something getting ready to be born from our frustration, and from the internet...something that I believe is going to be very powerful. They call it the Netroots now, but none of us are quite sure just what it will actually turn out to be.

But one thing is sure: if we lose in November, whatever IT is, is going to get very big, very fast.

Win, lose, or draw, we need to start worrying a whole lot less about free trade and the stock market, and a WHOLE lot more about the American People-and if we Democrats, as a Party don't do it, someone else WILL.

This nonsense of 'you have to vote for us because you have no one else to vote for', is going to come to a screeching halt.

Conversely, if we WIN in November, we have bought some time...maybe enough to take the Party back from the Liebermans and Zell Millers...and especially, the DlC.

Maybe the Democratic Party will be the Party to capitalize on the new energy the Net brings to politics. I hope so.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-25-04 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. There exists a kernal of true progressives within...
...the Democratic Party.

http://www.progressivevote.org/

I no longer send money to the DNC/DLC. I can no longer support an organization supports the WAR on Iraqi People and favors Corporate Profits over the commonwealth of their constituents. All requests for money from the DLC/DNC are returned with the above note.

My contributions go directly to Senator Mark Dayton (D MN) with a note telling him to do as he wishes. There are still some REAL Democrats left in the Party, and I will do my best to support them and a progressive agenda.

Vote for Kerry and all Democrats in '04. Its important!
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Crachet2004 Donating Member (725 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #10
23. We must do everything we can to elect John Kerry in five weeks...
How time flies...but yeah, failing that, supporting liberals and progressives where ever we may find them, is exactly what I am talking about.

On June 30 this year, Kerry raised over three million dollars, IN ONE DAY, in small contributions over the internet.

In addition, there are many disgruntled republicans...balanced budget, keep-your-hands-off-the-Constitution type of people who also hate our foreign interventions...the kind of GOPer who dislikes neocons, fundys, and freepers as much as WE do.

Then there is us: under-represented liberals and progressives of all stripes.

Taken all together, there is plenty of oxygen and stored up potential for a new Party to be born, linked through the net, financially unstoppable in our combined one hundred or even twenty dollar contributions.

All that needs be done, is for an umbrella group to be established...the 'Umbrella' might not even be a bad apellation for such an organization...

Power in the future will reside with the Party which can utilize the net, and mobilize the 'silent majority'-people who don't even vote, because they have long been disgruntled with the two-party system in place today.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-25-04 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
8. Second Great Depression. The beginning of the ebb of American power. (nt)
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Aviation Pro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-25-04 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
9. Then....
...stop paying taxes and refuse to pay any more personal bills. If 50 or 60 million people stop funding the corporations - who prop the President up - it will have a significant impact on them. The only way to get these shmucks attention is to fuck with their cash.
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Cats Against Frist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-25-04 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Taxes? People need to stop buying CRAP not stop paying their taxes
or both...
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Swede Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-25-04 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
11. The swing voters that voted for Bush,and the Nader supporters
will get what they deserve. The poor and middle class republicans should will too. Too bad for everyone who will be stuck saying "I told you so."
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phylny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-25-04 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #11
22. I will replace my Kerry/Edwards bumper sticker with one that says
something like, "Bush/Cheney 2004? You got what you deserve." Honestly. I say this constantly. You vote for them, you deserve every crappy thing that will happen.

And if they get back into office, crappy things will happen to this country.
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gordianot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #22
26. It would give me another 4 years of being self-righteous.
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fortyfeetunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #22
31. GREAT IDEA!
We have to make that bumper sticker, in time for the next crisis he drops on the US.
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Strelnikov_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-25-04 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
13. A Second Great Depression Worse Than We Would Otherwise Have Under Kerry
One item in the article that strikes me is the statement that fully liberalized global trade would create a one-time boost to the economy of 2 percent of GDP. If this is the benefit, why bother?

The Deficit Conquers All
By Sebastian Mallaby

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0409.mallaby.html

. . .

"Past administrations from the time of Alexander Hamilton have on the average run responsible budgetary policies," says the Nobel laureate George Akerlof. "What we have here is a form of looting."

. . .

According to a study by Alan Auerbach of Berkeley and Peter Orszag and William Gale of the Brookings Institution, the budget deficit is likely to grow from about 4 percent of GDP at the moment to around 20 percent in 2040.

. . .

If neither Social-Security reform nor pro-growth government policy are likely to rescue the Bush budget policy, what is there left? The answer is health care. Between now and 2040, on the Berkeley-Brookings projections, federal spending on Medicare and Medicaid will grow by over 6 percent of GDP, nearly three times the size of jump as Social Security faces.

. . .

Even if you assume improbable amounts of political courage in a second Bush term, the chances that the administration could come up with something dramatic enough to forestall fiscal disaster are between modest and zero.
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arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-25-04 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
15. I Will Leave This Country. Canada Maybe? New Zealand?
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gordianot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-25-04 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
17. Nader promotes Bush
I am becoming convinced that this is exactly what Nader wants. Bush elected (remember not re-elected) will effect a swing in the national psyche away from centrist politics to the left.

I suspect the end result will be a tragedy of epic proportions rivaling the American Civil War.
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Flammable Materials Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-25-04 10:48 PM
Response to Original message
18. There is a loft waiting for me and my family in the UK.
I'll send a postcard.
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arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-25-04 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
20. Civil War. More HOMELAND Terror Attacks (plural).
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-25-04 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
24. "W Takes On Global Warming" - Would You Like More Crack, Mr. Easterbrook?
That's just about the stupidest thing I've ever read - but not surprising, considering Easterbrook crapped a giant steaming mound of Panglossian swill in his green magnum opus, "A Moment On The Earth"
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against all enemies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
25. He inherits his own mess.
For once the democrats don't have to bail the country out of a republican mess. Let the idiots figure out hoe they are going to fix Iraq, the deficit, health care and the rest of their fucking mess.
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orpupilofnature57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. trillionaires times ten
Edited on Sun Sep-26-04 11:00 AM by THEHURON57
If the stat on d.u. is correct and WE grew 313 trillionaires from billionaires,In just one year, just think of the fucking mess.
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dave502d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
28. And if Bush wins?
By: Pablo Pardo/Washington

El Mundo (Spain)
September 12, 2004
The Spanish original is at: www.el-mundo.es/nuevaeconomia/2004/239/1095089802.html


The Wall Street Journal has called him "The Lenin of
the Republican Party". Other distinguished
conservatives say that this title is an exaggeration,
but it is beyond doubt that at the age of 48, Grover
Norquist, outside consultant to the White House, has
now become the dominant force in American economic
policy.

Norquist's big mouth <1> is combined with an ascetic
devotion to his caudse. So much so that the platform
approved by the Republican Party last week for Bush's
reelection repeats, point by point, his ideology. It's
not surprising. Norquist works closely with Karl Rove,
Bush's chief of electoral strategy, and has a long
history of promoting conservative causes in the United
States and world anticommunism. It is hard to overstate
Norquist's influence in US politics. He was the
architect of the crushing Republican victory in the
1994 legislative elections, which placed his ally Newt
Gingrich at the head of the House of Representatives.
Since then, the conservatives have not left control of
the Legislature, a traditional Democratic stronghold.

For over ten years he has lead the "Leave-Us-Alone
Coalition" <2>, which every Wednesday holds open
meetings in which representatives of different
conservative groups suggest initiatives and announce
programs of action, and to which George W. Bush and
Dick Cheney always sent personal representatives. He
runs the "K Street Project", designed to eradicate all
Democratic influence upon pressure groups -- the famous
lobbies -- that are concentrated on that street in
Washington. And he wants -- and all indications are
that he will prevail -- the image of Ronald Reagan to
appear on the ten-dollar bill. But his main instrument
to influence policy is the group Americans for Tax
Reform.

This pressure group rates the fiscal policy of every
legislator. If a congressman has voted in favor of tax
increases, he is finished, particularly if he is a
Republican. A bad opinion from the ATR can destroy the
popularity of any legislator, and leave him without
funds to carry out an election campaign.

Question: Who is going to win on November 2?

Answer: It doesn't matter. We will control the House
of Representatives, and probably the Senate. If Kerry
wins, he will not be able to do anything that we do not
want him to do. We will not give him money to spend.
He will not be able to raise taxes. He will not steal
our firearms. Even though we lose the White House, it
will not be the end of the world.

Q: And if Bush wins?

A: The Democratic Party will be forever doomed. If we
take control of the legislature and the executive
branch, we will reenforce our control of the Judicial
Branch to direct it against the Democrats. We will
brng about a modest limit of the ability of the people
to initiate lawsuits against corporations, which will
damage the lawyers who specialize in these cases, which
is one of the props of the Democratic Party. We will
accelerate the decline of the unions. We will cut
funding to groups of public employees, like teachers,
who are one of the great sources of Democratic votes.
And we will begin the move the Welfare State toward a
private system, in pensions and healthcare.

Q: The end of the Democrats?

A: Yes, because their demographic base is collapsing.
Two million people who fought in the Second World War
and lived through the Great Depression die every year.
This generation has been an exception in US History,
because it as defended anti-American policies. They
voted for the creation of the Welfare State and for
mandatory military service. They are the Democratic
electoral base. And they are dying. And at the same
time, more and more Americans own stock. This makes
them defend business interests, because they are their
own interests. That is why it is impossible to bring
about a politics of societal hatred, of class struggle.

Q: What are the Democrats doing to stop their decline?

A: Mobilizing. That is where all the support that
Kerry receives from people like George Soros comes
from. They are just as we were in 1968, when Nixon
won, or in 1980, when Reagan won. Then, the Democrats
controlled Congress. We could only choose a President.
We knew that if Nixon or Reagan did not win, and
Democratic domination of US politics continued, that
they would deliver the country to the Soviet Union.
Now they are living that experience.

Q: You would like the cut the state by half in 25
years. How?

A: The key is in pensions and health. Last year Bush
approved the creation of personal accounts in which
each citizen accumulates savings to pay for health
assistance. And the platform includes a partial
privatization of Social Security ("pensiones"). These
two areas are a third of public spending in this
country. In 20 years, half the population will be in
private assistance systems and pensions. And the
Welfare State will no longer be needed. To this will
be added reforms to the EPA and a reduction in the
authority of the FDA, which authorizes the sale of
pharmaceuticals.

Q: And that will be the society that you want.

A: It will be a truly American society. And we will
bury the Europeans. Further, we will reform
immigration legislation, and bring over one million of
Europe's best minds every year. You will also be
finished. But quickly, let me say why we are freer
than you.

Q: Why?

A: Because we can have weapons.

Q: But likewise Europeans -- particularly the women --
can take off more clothing on the beach than Americans.

A: Whose beaches are they?

Q: The State's. The vision of state-run beaches with
naked people -- almost -- disconcerts Norquist,
although it's not clear whether it's the public
ownership of the beaches or the moral aspect of the
question. With this unknown left open, the interview
ends. Norquist goes back to his lobbying work, and
starts to talk with his collaborators who work for the
Secretary of Energy, Spencer Abraham.

After a brief interruption to attend to a journalist
from Old Europe, the libertarian revolution of America
starts up again.

Norquist himself has declared his goal: "I don't want
to put an end to the State. I just want to make it
small enough for me to drown in the bathtub."

Born: October 19, 1956 in Wenton, Massachusetts.
Current responsiblities: President of Americans for
Tax Reform and the Leave-Us-Alone Coalition. Director
of the Ronald Reagan Legacy Project. Member of the
Executive Committee of the National Rifle Association.
Career: Norquist says that he became an anticommunist
at age 11, reading Masters of Deceit, written by the
controversial ex-diector of the FBI J. Edgar Hoover.
After obtaining a Harvard MBA, he went on to lead the
Association of University Republicans and the National
Contrbutors' Union. In the 1980s he worked in the
White House and was financial consultant to the
anticommunist UNITA guerrillas in Angola, who fought,
with American and South AFican support, the government
of that country which enjoyed the support of tens of
thousands of Cuban soldiers. He also worked with the
anti-Soviet Afghan "mujahedin".
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kohodog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
29. It will be time to drink the cool aid. n/t
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