"it doesn't matter who wins the election- we're never leaving this place".

[UpsideDownFlag]

the above is a quote from an email my friend's dad sent him from iraq. the gist of the email went something like this, from what he said...

"we're here for the long haul...my commanders have stopped talking about going home after serving out our commitment. I'm fighting alongside high school teachers and community college students who can't tell Al Sadr from Allawi. We're creating more bases than we can effectively man. it doesn't matter who wins the election, whether it's kerry or Bush, i have a feeling we're never leaving this place."

i hope to god that Kerry can fix the messes that Bushco has created.

[demnan]

1. Exactly

It sickens me to the heart to say this, but we are in a long term war, we will have a draft and many thousands will die before it's over.

[UpsideDownFlag]

2. i had no idea until the past few weeks

that we are literally turning iraq into america's middle eastern hub. the bases, everything, points to a long term occupation. i mean, there's still troops in germany, right?? they've been pacified for a loooong time. after the nazis, we had to keep them there for the *cold war*. i wonder what the excuse will be for occupation if we ever "conquer" iraq?

[skygazer]

4. I recently read an eye opening book

The title was something about "Empire" - unfortunatley I can't remember but it talked about how we have bases all over the world in places we have no need for a military presence. Essentially, we're doing much the same as the Roman Empire did only we're not conquering these places militarily first. We set up bases which bring our influence into these areas, our money and our cultural norms. We make it so that we become an essential part of the economy as well as a major cultural influence. Our "empire" encompasses much of the world but most people don't realize it. We influence the politics of these areas as well as every other aspect. It was very, very interesting - sorry I can't remember the full title.

His conclusion was that we will do the same as the Roman empire - over extend and piss off too many people ultimately imploding. Rather grim reading.

[Beam Me Up]

5. Chalmers; "The Sorrows of Empire"?

Sounds like that could be it.

[skygazer]

7. That was it

Thanks. :hi:

[Poiuyt]

3. This is one area where I disagree with Kerry

While I believe other countries will be more willing to help if Kerry is president, I still favor just walking away. Our presence is creating more problems than it's worth.

[Terran]

11. I do too.

And I don't buy the almost universal assumption that if we leave now, there will be complete anarchy and civil war. We are the cause of the violence that's going on now. Period. If we leave, we remove the main reason for violence. Then let the Shiites and Sunnis and Kurds work it among themselves. That's what they're going to have to do eventually anyway.

[Djinn]

16. I don't see other countries helping

Kerry may be able to bribe a fwe more developing nations into helping but there will be little or no developed world assistance not in any meaningful way atleast, and a handful of "advisor/trainer" troops isn't really going to solve the US problems.

Just like in Vietnam, the rest of the world looks upon the Iraq "war" as America's doing, America's problem.

I doubt that you'd even manage to twist John Howard's arm for anymore troops (should he win his own election that is)

[rucky]

24. Agreed. We are the "secuity risk".

and don't tell me things would be worse if we weren't there.

[Florida_Geek]

6. President Kerry needs to close down the new "permanent" bases.

They send the WRONG signal to Iraqis. "Permanent" bases === Permanent occupation.......

[Eloriel]

19. Everything we've done has sent the wrong message to Iraqis

And here's a good read if you want to find out more about what ELSE we've done that's sent the wrong message:

http://www.harpers.org/

Baghdad Year Zero
Pillaging Iraq in pursuit of a neocon utopia
Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004. Originally from Harper's Magazine, September 2004. By Naomi Klein.

[bobbieinok]

23. INCREDIBLE ARTICLE.......MUST READING FOR ALL

[proud patriot]

26. Thanks Eloriel I read that yesterday but Encourage everyone to read it

if you want to know the game that is the article to read .

[Beam Me Up]

8. You have to be asking the right question: Why ARE we there?

We know it isn't about weapons of mass destruction.

We know it isn't to defeat "terrorism".

We know it has something to do with oil.

None of what has happened to this country in the past three going on four years makes any sense UNLESS "Peak Oil" is, in fact, a looming geopolitical CRISIS on a scale not experienced in known human history.

I encourage everyone to see: "The End of Suburbia." A documentary that puts everything that is happening to us and everything that is going to happen to us -- including PNAC's "war without end in our lifetime" -- out on the table for all to see. It is not a pretty picture but it is one we must face.

The Movie Website
http://www.endofsuburbia.com

Preview Clips
http://endofsuburbia.com/previews.htm

More information on oil depletion and its implications
http://www.postcarbon.org

Learning to live in a low energy  world
http://www.globalpublicmedia.com

[Disturbed]

9. Saddam was going to sell oil via the Euro.

That was his major mistake. It sealed his doom.

The oil, pipelines and location of US Military are the reasons that the US will stay in Iraq, no matter what the cost.

All this talk of leaving by anyone is just that: Talk

[truthbetold]

12. :shivers:

Those clips really freaked me out.
What are we going to do? How is the world going to cope when the oil runs out? There doesn't seem to be any answers, just horrible scenario after scenario.

[Beam Me Up]

25. There are many places in the world that may, after a time, cope just fine

What I mean to say is, there are many places in the world which can sustain a reasonable population of people withOUT hydrocarbon energy. There are many places in the world where the infrastructures for sustaining society -- growing and delivering food, for example -- are not as ENERGY DEPENDANT as are ours. That so much of our consumption is DISPOSABLE PA CAGING is simply INSANE -- and of necessity can not last much longer. Of course most of these places have become overpopulated as a result of hydrocarbon energy bringing industrial society that can produce more food. As hydrocarbon energy becomes more scarce and its costs increase, this could have a severe impact on food production. Famine could become a real possibility for nations that are now agriculturally stable. However, within a generation or so, it is quite likely that many third world nations will stabilize once again into populations that can do quite well on renewable energy sources.

I would hardly call that a rosy picture but in some ways it is preferable to what may happen here. Knowing our society as I do, I assume our corporations, via the military industrial complex, will do whatever it takes to get as much oil at least cost to US as possible -- thus 'softening' the impact somewhat. However, this will be an ENORMOUS cost to us. It may mean committing to a world war which, in the long run, we can NOT win. Why? Because our military supremacy itself is dependant upon hydrocarbon fuels. What do we do if we loose control of the middle east? What do we do if control is gained by a competitor, such as China, for example?

The upside of all this is that this IS the END of GLOBALIZATION. It will, eventually, be the END of GLOBAL TRADE as we have known it. It will of necessity mean the rebirth of regionalism. Of course, our future will not look like our past. If we are lucky, we will find some way of replicating our technology without hydrocarbon fuels. Perhaps we'd better invest more into nanotechnology and the prospect of biocomputer implants.

But here is what really makes ME shiver: The fact of the matter is not that we are running out of oil, but that, due to the Earth's population, DEMAND is exceeding supply. Reduce the global population to less than 1 Billion and there is no "energy crisis."

I figure if little ol' me can figure that out you can bet that those with unlimited wealth and power can also figure that out.

[AG78]

10. Of course we're not leaving

The D Party is as much a part of the Empire as the R Party.

Millions of dollars aren't given to each party because people just want to throw money around.

And Bushco didn't start the mess(and one man isn't fixing it). They're just extremely good mess makers. We've been on this track for a good while. I have serious doubts we'll ever get off this track before everyone falls off the cliff.

[AntiFascist]

13. The American dollar is propped up by...

oil. Bushco is in bed with the oil companies, but lacks broad-based international support. Kerry has the potential for gaining the international support and part of his platform involves incentives for development of energy alternatives.

[neebob]

14. That's because it's too "strategic" and too profitable

Who's going to have the guts to tell the contractors they have to pack it up and go home? Not John Kerry. I've said it before, too: The troops are never coming home.

[n2mark]

15. Don't give up!

Kerry was against Viet Nam, just vote him into office --I do have faith in him but now he is not in the WH, he can't do anything --
but HELP IS ON THE WAY from Kerry and Edwards!

They just need to kick butts now. Please have faith in K/G

[Eloriel]

20. My heart sinks when I see

DUers who seem to think that everything will go back to where it was when/if Kerry gets elected.

First, he may not successfully oust Bush. Bush stole one election, he's certainly capable of doing it again. I hope everyone will continue to work like hell on this election, but ALSO spend a little quiet time talking with themselves about how they'll handle a "loss."

Second, even if Kerry IS victorious, the mess Bush has made is going to take a lot of sacrifice and suffering for just about everyone -- IF Kerry has the cajones to do what's needed.

Third, even if Kerry can do that, we STILL have major, major systemic problems that very few Dems in Congress are even willing to recognize, let alone talk about, and even less so actually DO anything about.

A Kerry administration would be just the barest of beginnings and EVERYONE who is currently politically active and aware is going to have to continue just as much pressure and energy and activism as they're currently expending just trying to get Kerry in.

[NoPasaran]

17. The war is lost

The only question is how many Americans have to lose their lives before we leave.

Support the troops? Yeah, I support bringing them home today.

[Kimber Scott]

18. Here's the reason...

http://harpers.org/BaghdadYearZero.html

--snip--

Iraq was going to change all that. In one place on Earth, the theory would finally be put into practice in its most perfect and uncompromised form. A country of 25 million would not be rebuilt as it was before the war; it would be erased, disappeared. In its place would spring forth a gleaming showroom for laissez-faire economics, a utopia such as the world had never seen. Every policy that liberates multinational corporations to pursue their quest for profit would be put into place: a shrunken state, a flexible workforce, open borders, minimal taxes, no tariffs, no ownership restrictions. The people of Iraq would, of course, have to endure some short-term pain: assets, previously owned by the state, would have to be given up to create new opportunities for growth and investment. Jobs would have to be lost and, as foreign products flooded across the border, local businesses and family farms would, unfortunately, be unable to compete. But to the authors of this plan, these would be small prices to pay for the economic boom that would surely explode once the proper conditions were in place, a boom so powerful the country would practically rebuild itself.

The fact that the boom never came and Iraq continues to tremble under explosions of a very different sort should never be blamed on the absence of a plan. Rather, the blame rests with the plan itself, and the extraordinarily violent ideology upon which it is based.

--more--
http://harpers.org/BaghdadYearZero.html

[PurityOfEssence]

21. Sure ya will, soon as all that oil's sucked out

There won't be any point to stay after that.

[UpsideDownFlag]

22. sure there will. it's the perfect staging ground for an attack on iran...

*sigh*

[DeepModem Mom]

27. kick

[UpsideDownFlag]

28. what's a "kick"

i've been here for a while and still havent figured that out...

i know, i'm slow.

[DeepModem Mom]

29. When I "kick" it means I have no wisdom to add at that moment...

but want an important or interesting topic to come back up to the top so others will see it -- and maybe add some wisdom of their own!

[UpsideDownFlag]

30. ooooh i get it. very clever.