Jeb Bush and I agree on ONE thing--Terri Schiavo

[Maddy McCall]

That Terri Schiavo should be allowed to live instead of starve to death, just because that is what her husband, who is her legal guardian, wants. Her husband has already moved on, has a girlfriend and two children. Her parents want Terri to be fed, and thus to live, but her husband insists no, and the Florida supreme court just agreed with him.

Her parents would even bring her to their house to care for her, but Terri's husband says NO.

The guy has already moved on! Why he won't hand her care back over to her parents is beyond me.

The parents are on CNN right now, Larry King, if anyone wants to watch. They have shown video of Terri, and, all along I had thought she was brain dead and in a vegatative state, BUT she is just brain damaged, but very much aware, and breathing on her own. She can't swallow, and that's why she needs the feeding tube, which her husband wants to remove, thus letting her starve to death. Terri is even able to talk!

Edit: I know that Jeb wants political mileage from this; however, I am not judging his motives. He's right this time, regardless of why he is on Terri's side.

[Goldmund]

1. Assume that her wishes were to die rather than vegetate forever.

How would that impact your thinking?

[Maddy McCall]

7. She left no living will...so assume that she WANTS to live.

[Goldmund]

9. She was young.

I don't have a will either, and yet I've told my friends that I wouldn't want to be an eternal vegetable.

[Maddy McCall]

22. Well, maybe you'd better put it in writing. She isn't a vegetable...

by the way.

[Goldmund]

35. Fine, pick another term then.

I would not want to keep living in a world in which my existence is manifested in ways that Terri Schiavo's is.

You're right, I better put it in writing. If there's no writing, what then? Why do you assume that to make her stay alive is the "lowest common denominator"? Why is that the default decision?

In addtion, there is her husband's word, and a determination by the court that he sincerely loved her. Whether or not a court can really decide is another conversation -- but that is a consensus in our system.

[carpetbagger]

104. She is most certainly in a persistant vegetative state.

The non-vegetative parts of her brain aren't sleeping, waiting to come back one day. They have mostly dissolved.

[jrthin]

26. Would you want to live in that

vegetative state?

There was a full page article in the NYT today discussing similar situations. The professionals noticed one constant in cases where loved ones were on support systems, those closet to the loved ones wanted the life support removed, while those who felt they had issues to workout or wasn't close wanted the support to stay.

IMHO life is too dignifed to live as this woman now lives it.

[Maddy McCall]

43. That's your opinion. I have a living will;. its contents are NYB

[GAspnes]

2. you don't know what Terri wants

and the most likely person to know is her husband.

Sorry, but Jeb, the courts and the rest of the family should butt out.

[Maddy McCall]

8. The same husband that has another family? The same husband...

who said that he is carrying out her wishes, although he has no documentation that it is her wish to die of starvation?

[alcuno]

27. I've seen her husband and believe that he thinks he is doing what

she would want. Her parents have become tools of and are funded by the religious right in this country. It is a real shame the way they have exploited this woman. She is in a vegetative state; I've seen pictures of the mush that is now her brain. Her reflexes are involuntary and they don't show you the video of the hundreds of times they tried to get her to respond and got nothing in return.

As a Catholic, I find these extreme measures to extend "life" terribly offensive.

[Djinn]

80. yeah he kept on living

so clearly he doesn't have any feelings for his wife and just wants to kill her for the sake of it. :eyes:

[Cheswick2.0]

121. Do you know anything about the case other than what you read here?

Your sarcasm is ridiculous. He went to court won hundreds of thousands of dollars to take care of her for the rest of her natural life (which doesn't indlude starving her death to shorten her life) Then after they had the money he started refusing to let doctors treat her with anti-biotics and other medicines that would keep her healthy. At that point he couldn't have know that no therapy would help her. What was his excuse when therapy had been recommended and he refused to every try it>

If he cares about her he should let her parents become her gardians. But that would mean he doesn't get the money.

[Djinn]

127. do you ever post anything that isn't

sarky and bitter?

I don't know a lot about this case I DO know from unfortunate experience A LOT about PVS and hypoxic brain damage. I know that if teh doctors in the case (ncluding independant court appointed ones) say she's PVS and if her brain was starved of oxygen for 14 minutes she is NOT going to wake up and she is NOT communicative.

I also know I'm completely over your sanctimonious patronising and smug comments and that you clearly know little about this case either because the husband DID pay for YEARS of therapy but it was NEVER going to work read up about the injuries she received (touch wood you never have to deal with it personally) and THEN start lecturing me.

[LisaL]

18. Her husband is living with another woman

and has two children with her. Do you really think her husband has her best interests in heart?

[Maddy McCall]

23. Exactly...

plus, the parents' lawyer is speculating that he wants her to die so that he can get big bucks for movie rights--so everyone needs to quit assuming that he is some kind of altruist.

[Djinn]

82. whereas you're happy to assume

he wants to kill his wife to make a movie - that's pretty vile, if your wife dies should you never re-marry never have children - mourn forever?? His wife is not alive in any meaningful sense of the word why the hell shouldn't he re-marry why does that mean he doesn't care for Terri

[GAspnes]

100. meddler

you want the world to be what you think it should be.

Leave Terri alone. Let someone who *knows* make the decision.


As I said before .... "butt out".

Meddler.

[alcuno]

31. Her husband has been consistent throughout.

He's never waivered.

[peach720]

138. That other woman may well have saved this man

from falling into total dispair.
If he has waited the 14 years and not got a new family, would it be ok then.He clearly understands the reality of the situation that her parents refuse to see, because they are holding out for a miricle and supported by people with purely political motives, for getting involved. Maybe he does want to put his new family and kids first but that does not take away the love that he feels for his wife.
What possible good will in do the parents to keep their daughter alive indefinatly, with no hope of recovery or change, they will never be able to move on like this.

[juajen]

113. At one point, there was speculation and some evidence

that he was the cause of her injury, that she had been battered. What do ya'll know about that?

[carpetbagger]

116. I don't know a terrible amount, but here's what I do know.

There was a finding of profound hypokalemia (low potassium), which caused a cardiac arrest. There is no way to batter a person to cause this specific problem. She wasn't injured in the sense of having her head bashed in.

There have been innumerable accusations made against Michael Schiavo, which have been amplified and augmented by the Florida TV preachers and talk radio hosts. It is the same machine that serves as the echo chamber for the swift boat people. I take it with the grain of salt that I take any nasty custody dispute with. They seem to be of three groups: one, that the couple didn't have a good relationship, two, that he repeatedly tries to kill her, and three, that he's lying about his motives and her past views.

[libertad]

139. Exactly, I think that was his initial interest in keeping her alive..avoid

ing the death penalty for killing her. As soon as he thought the coast was clear he wanted her dead. Starving someone to death is never the right thing to do. She is not dependent upon any machines to keep her alive (her heart works and she breathes on her own).

[Florida_Geek]

3. Then Jeb and you can pay for her medical care.

Only a couple hundred thousand a year.

I am sure Jebbie can find the money in the Florida Budget for it.....

But so far he has not committed 1 Cent to her medical care.

[Maddy McCall]

11. She's not my daughter, but her parents want to assume her care...

and the cost of it.

Her husband has another family. He could turn over guardianship to her parents, but he won't. Terri had no living will. If I were a justice, I would err on the side of life instead of death.

[benddem]

14. Agree

unless you and Jebbie are willing to fork out the money it ain't none of your business. This woman is being kept alive by machines and man and God has not one thing to do with it.

[LisaL]

29. Her husband has been awarded a lot of money to pay for her care

Only he spend it all on lawyers who wanted to starve her to death.
Maybe the husband should give all the money back?

[Cheswick2.0]

117. She has a trust fund that pays for her treatment

her husband sued and got himself appointed her guardian by telling the juty he would take care of her for the rest of her natural life. He was supposed to create treatment plans for her...but almost immediately he refused treatment for her.

He stands to inherit a lot of money from that fund. He should divorce her and leave her to her parents if he doesn't want to be involved.

[BlueJazz]

4. Ask your parents about the ....

..itsy-bitsy-teeny-weeny 700 Billion dollar Difference in the national Dept between Clinton And Brush.

[TheDebbieDee]

5. Her hubby is only trying to carry out her wishes......................

but her parents are not ready to let go. :-(

[Maddy McCall]

15. Maybe because Terri is not ready to go.

She can speak, and she follows directions during her therapy.

Providing food and water is not a medical act, nor an extraordinary thing to do. She isn't receiving breathing assistance--just food and water.

[TheDebbieDee]

57. If she could REALLY talk and follow directions.......................

do you think they'd be trying to disconnect her feeding tube?

[Maddy McCall]

72. Off topic--but what's the deal with the two inches of elipses?

[TheDebbieDee]

78. It's just how I do things...........................

[SlavesandBulldozers]

6. maybe if they had the other side arguing

instead of monopolizing the argument you'd see that there is more to it than "Look at her she's happy!"

That is not a smile on her face, first off. It's the way her mouth is permanently fixed.

[Malva Zebrina]

19. It is a neurological grimace

everybody should fill out a legal form stating that they would not allow excessive measures to keep them alive but in a vegetative state, if they do not wish to live for years and years in a non communicating vegetative state. Young as well as old.

It is the kindest thing to do for one's family and a facing of reality.

Who could really want to be carried on for years in that state, not being aware or conscious of one's existance, which is an important, if not the most important, part of life?

They shoot horses don't they?

[Maddy McCall]

30. What about her ability to say "Yes" and "no" and "mama"

Are those neurological grunts?

[Malva Zebrina]

52. She talks

Do they ask her if she is in pain and is it on record that she, with her vocal cords and mouth, says "no" or "yes" to any of those questions?

where are those records?

Aand if she can say yes or no to any questions, has anyone asked her if she wants to go on or if she wants to go home or if she is aware that her parents want to take her into their home and care for her? Are there any indications that she assents or does not assent as to her care? Are there any indications that she is aware of her existence?

[carpetbagger]

103. The part of her brain that makes words is gone.

Her speech center was destroyed. Not destroyed like a kidney that doesn't work anymore, destroyed like not there any more.

Her parents' preacher is playing politics with their grief.

[Heyo]

141. agreed...

I was sitting with my girlfriend and a couple of our friends watching TV the other day and the story on the Shaivo case came on. I firmly stated to all three of them right then that I would never ever want to be kept in that state... it's probably best to put it in writing though, youre right.

Heyo

[juajen]

114. I just saw a video of her NOT smiling

N/T

[UdoKier]

10. All the docctors insist that she IS in a vegetative state.

Here eyes are open, but she apparently has no idea what's going on. She also did not want to live on in this way. I would prefer the judge accede to the woman's wishes.

[Columbia]

108. Exactly

They should've let her die with dignity rather that be used a political pawn by the Bushies.

[Cheswick2.0]

118. no all the doctors do say that

the doctors hired by her husband do.

[Djinn]

128. wrong Cheswick

this is what court appointed doctors also agreed and what ALL medical knowledge says in the case of someone who suffered the oxygen deprivation she did. It's medical fact.

[dietdpfan]

12. Put her out of her misery.

Terry Schiavo should be put out of her misery. Why everyone wants to just ignore her husband's wishes is beyond me. Of course he has moved on! He has fought long and hard to carry out her wishes but her family and the Florida repugs looking for publicity keep putting a stop to it. What's he to do? Sit on this thumbs and not live his life while these morons pretend to know what's in her best interest? Give me a break. Let her go already! I don't blame the husband one bit for moving on and I disagree entirely with the family and the nasty little politicians who have wedged themselves into this matter.

[Maddy McCall]

17. Again, she had no living will, and she isn't in pain, and is able to...

communicate. Why is that misery to you?

No one has any documentation that she wanted to die if brain damaged--NOT BRAIN DEAD.

[Malva Zebrina]

32. How did she communicate that she wasn't in pain? nt

[shraby]

36. What kind of communication does she have?

Tell me.

[Maddy McCall]

38. Read the thread. I already posted that.

[dietdpfan]

40. Fine line.

<No one has any documentation that she wanted to die if brain damaged--NOT BRAIN DEAD.>

Sheesh! Drawing a fine line there aren't ya' buddy?

When someobody has to feed me, dress me, change my shit bag, and wipe my drool, that falls under the brain dead category and I consider that misery. I would want to be put out of it if I was in that state myself.

How do you know she is not in pain?

[Nikia]

65. I don't know, our friend has a sister who was in a serious accident

It happened over 10 years ago. She is a quadrapelegic and is severely mentally retarded as a result. She is at home though. Nurses come to their home. She spends most of the day watching television with her grandmother. They have a few pets. One cat is very attatched to her. The cat cuddles up to her and she smiles. It might not be a life that most of us would choose to live but I don't think that it is entirely without value.

[amazona]

42. she isn't communicating

That is simply a right wing lie. She can't speak. They are lying. You cannot speak in a permanent vegetative state.

[LisaL]

25. If Terri can feel

HTF do you propose to starve her to death over a long period of time?
It's a slow painful death.
:spank:

[dietdpfan]

45. Nothing slow or painful.

It doesn't have to be slow. I'm sure there are some assisted suicide techniques that can be used in this case to make her death quick and painless.

[Maddy McCall]

48. You're sure? Please name them.

[dietdpfan]

51. I don't know.

Maybe somebody else with more knowledge of assisted suicide can help me out?

I figure there would be something relatively quick because anyone who wants to kill themselves, I don't think, wants to take their time and mosey on towards the pearly gates. They would want it to be fast and painless.

[amazona]

68. starvation is not a slow, painful death, our experience

I started to post this, then deleted it, but now I feel I better post it.

My friend's father had terminal cancer. Long story. No chance of recovery. He begged to die. But he's Catholic. And some of the family members didn't want him to die. So round for round and they are not letting him die...for two years...and keep in mind, this is cancer, he's freakin' conscious and screaming in pain for a lot of this time.

Finally, a Catholic priest is willing to step forward and reassure the reluctant family members that it is OK to let him go and it is not suicide and they are not condemning him to hell if they let him pass from this horrible pain. By this point, because of the cancer, it was eating that was agony for him, and it was being fed by a tube down his throat that caused him great pain.

"Starving" to death was, by contrast, a relief for him and the family. He passed with his family around him. He was no longer in agony.

So this experience tells me that when it's your time, starvation is not painful. It is peace.

We are all going to die. Now we have the technology to make every death an extended agony. Starvation by contrast is a peaceful, planned way to go. Maybe not for everyone. But for some, it is the right choice.

I am no expert and this is not "assisted suicide" nor was it even "suicide." It was acceptance of what God and nature intended. So maybe my reply is not the most expert but maybe it will shed a tiny ray of light until someone more expert does reply.

[LisaL]

59. Delusions, delusions.

The assisted suicide is not legal, and even if it was, Terri can not say if she wants to die or live. Do you even know that last time they turned of her feeding tube she was without food for about a week? Not slow or painful, well, try not to eat or drink for week.
:eyes:

[dietdpfan]

63. You just admitted she can't think for herself.

<Terri can not say if she wants to die or live.>

Exactly! And that's why the person closest to her--her husband in this case--should be allowed to decide her outcome. But nobody will allow the man she married to carry out her wishes. He might know what they are since he spent much of his life with her.

[juajen]

119. Why the hell do you think he was the closest to her

I refute that. I had a daughter who eventually divorced a husband because he wanted to keep her from her family. Close is giving birth and raising a child, taking care of them until their adults and loving them thereafter. Sex does not take dominance over that. They had no children and had not been married for that long. Closest, my ass!!!

[Djinn]

129. in the case of myself

In many people's cases they would be closer to their parents than their partner, in many that's simply not true - in the case of my partner he's definetly closer to me - his parents have shown little interest in his welfare for over 15 years now and they wouldn't ahve the foggiest whether he'd want to live or die in this situation, I know exactly what he'd want because we've discussed it many times, it's not that his parents are even out of his life they just aren't that close or demonstrative of their feelings towards him - he see's them maybe twice a year, he see's me every day - we can not judge who was closer to Terri, her parents or her husband, but to assume that giving birth to someone means you know them best is delusional

[Cheswick2.0]

122. he spent a couple of years with her

He hasn't been her husband for years. Her parents are the closest people to her.

[Cheswick2.0]

120. Do you understand how assisted suicide works or what it is?

It is not murder, it is leaving the means to commit suicide for the patient and allowing them to do themself in.
How is that possible in this case?

[Andromeda]

132. Assisted suicide is illegal.

n/t

[kokomo]

67. I signed the orders to have my father's feeding tubes removed.

He had a living will but it wasn't easy even knowing his wishes. My father then lived 36 hours without food and water. We did keep his face,lips and mouth moist with a wet wash cloth. He was in a coma and showed no signs of suffering.

He had developed renal failure, catheter went dry, and was dying of uremic poisoning. Thankfully, my mother wasn't at the hospital when the doctor asked for a signature, so she didn't have to make the decision. I told her when she returned what I had done and she didn't protest. We would have put the tubes back in if she had insisted but she knew what her husband of 56 years wanted. My father just slept away to the end, but did open his eyes before his last breath and looked at us, then made kind of a frown, almost like he wanted to cry, just like Nancy said Ronald Reagan did. We felt his goodbye.

[Maddy McCall]

76. I am sorry for your own situation...

Terri's is different, though. She has no organ failure. She isn't in a coma.

Terri will live weeks without the tube. It sounds like your father died of other causes than starvation. Terri will waste away via starvation.

[zelda7743]

115. Here's the deal....

I'm a dietitian. Starvation is not painful for someone in a vegetative state. Going without fluid for about 3 days will result in the organ failure as described above. The body shuts down and goes into a comatose state. It's a natural process.
You cannot use arguments such as "Have you ever not eaten for a week?" to make your point. The situations are completely different. Terry Schiavo will not know one way or the other if she is receiving food or not. Those parts of her brain are not functioning and will never function.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

13. There are things worse than death - and this is one of them....

n/t

[Disturbed]

24. "Terri is even able to talk!"

What did she say?

[GreenArrow]

99. things worse than death ...

the fear of death.

[Mizmoon]

16. I don't know what she would have wanted

but I think that her husband is most likely to know.

Honestly, I don't blame him for having another love in his life. He's not made of stone.

The starving thing does bother me. I know a man who let his father pass away like that. It seemed so brutal, but then again I have never had to walk in those shoes. I don't know how it feels to have to make that kind of decision.

[Maddy McCall]

20. The same husband who has a girlfriend and two children--another

family?

Why do you think her parents wouldn't know what she wanted?

[Djinn]

86. most people will tell you

that their partner knows more about their wishes than their parents - if not it's time to move on from a relationship.

BTW you do know that is fairly common for people in PVS to have non cognitive functions - ie they can breath on their own they often respond to visual stimuli, they will grimace or grin - that doesn't mean they're not vegatative, do you think the doctors who all agree she's PVS are somehow in on the scheming husbands movie plans? or are they just sadistic killers?

The video clips Terri's parents have provided are nothig more than confirmation of what neurologists have known for some time about PVS it does NOT prove that she has ANY cognitive function at all - it's awful for her pareants and I'm sure they are simply acting out of love, it's an awful decision to make even if you HAVE someone written instructions, but she is NOT coming back.

[LisaL]

21. Well, if you don't eat or drink for a couple of weeks

you could find out how it feels to starve to death.
:eyes:

[SW FL Dem]

28. I disagree

The scientific experts agree that she is in a persistant vegitative state. The parents are getting help from the right wing, right to lifers. Their motive is not to help Terri.

[LisaL]

34. I don't really care who are they getting help from.

She is not in a coma. She might be out of it but she is not in a coma. She can breath on her own, and her only life support is a feeding tube.

[amazona]

58. right she is NOT in a coma she's permanent vegetative state

Do you not understand the difference?

With a coma, there is hope.

With a permanent vegetative state, that portion of the brain that regulates consciousness is destroyed. She can never awaken. Any tall tales that she can speak are just that, tall tales. Yes, it is a tragedy that the part of the brain that regulates consciousness is not the same as the part which regulates breathing ...but what a boon for the unscrupulous who can charge families and their insurance companies... for decades ... to support someone who can never awaken.

[Maddy McCall]

81. You obviously know very little about this case.

She IS awake. She communicates.

You keep mentioning "that part of her brain." If you are an expert on this condition, feel free to talk techno lingo. Some of us paid attention in biology classes.

[Pastiche423]

92. She does not communicate

Medical experts say this poor woman's cerebral cortex is full of spinal fluid. There is no one there.

http://tinyurl.com/4rysg

[carpetbagger]

105. It's called a cerebral cortex, and it's gone.

If you've got some theory about how speech is produced without a cortex, feel free to elaborate on it here.

I paid lots of attention in my biology classes, including my nine years of graduate work.

[Djinn]

90. you clearly don't understand the terms

being in a coma is not neccesarily time to start thinkibng of switching off the machines, coma's aren't neccesarily permanent, Terri's condition is.

She is NOT awake she does NOT communicate. There has NEVER been a case of someone recovering from a PVS after 6 months let alone 13 years, she also suffered severe hypoxic brain damage which put her in this position in the first place, no-one survives 14 minutes without oxygen to the brain with cognitive functioning.

[kokomo]

69. where is their concern about Iraqi children who are blown away?

[Maddy McCall]

71. non sequitur

[amazona]

33. He is totally wrong

Do you know anyone in a permanent vegatative state? I do. They can never wake up. It is not physically possible. He has been this way for 20-plus years and is drawn up into a fetal ball. He can never wake up. It can't happen. That part of his brain is destroyed.

For the law to make it possible for hospitals and doctors to do this to people, for a profit, and to prey upon the hope that the impossible will happen, is beyond cruel and evil. It angers me that there is an industry that preys upon this false hope of awakening. Yes, people do awaken from comas -- but NOT if they are in a permanent vegetative state. There are different kinds of comas! Teri cannot talk. Investigate further. Don't let yourself be used by people who profit from spreading lies.

No one in a permanent vegatative state has awakened. No one. Ever. In entire the history of humanity.

You wouldn't torture a dog like this.

I'm sorry. The husband is right. The parents are delusional. And Jeb Bush is just a cruel SOB.

Walk a mile in these shoes and you'll feel very differently on the subject.

[Maddy McCall]

She is NOT a vegetable. She laughs, talks, and responds to

therapy.

She is not brain dead; She IS brain damaged. Are we to quit feeding all people who are brain-damaged only because their quality of life is not equal to ours? It's one thing if a living will states so, but quite another for a judge to make the decision.

[amazona]

75. no she doesn't

She is in a persistent vegetative state. It is sad that her parents are in denial and are delusional but she does not in fact laugh, talk, etc. If she did, we wouldn't be having this discussion because such people are more than adequately protected by law.

[Maddy McCall]

83. Please show me evidence of this.

So when she can respond to questions and therapy, then she is "in a persistent vegetative state?" Again, I may not be an expert in these physical conditions, but I can understand much techno jargon, so feel free to enlighten me on you knowledge and expertise of this condition.

[juajen]

124. Delusional?

I don't think so. I just saw her on LK in a video where she followed directions by a physician moving her eyes in the direction he instructed her to do. I've seen people in vegetative states, and she is not in one. She might never be able to talk properly, but according to her parents she has never received the therapy that the jury awarded her husband money for. The doctors do not all agree on this case. Each side has their own experts. We all know how that goes. I don't know which one is right. I do know that her parents will bear the expense and trouble of caring for her and have every right to their child. As long as she is not in pain, what, for God's sakes, is the harm?

[Djinn]

130. no you didn't

you saw a video taken after God only knows how many hours of nothing people in PVS still have reflexive movements they are not cognitive - there is NO independant evidence that she follows anything and given her brain damage it would be one of the first cases of verifiable miracles ever.

Every INDEPENDENT assesment of this woman's condition has said the same thing - it's sad how many people here have been taken in by the exploitive tactics of the religious right.

[libertad]

140. If they want to take care of her, why the controversy, let them!!!

Why should she be killed because he is tired of being responsible for her?

[LisaL]

37. Is it not cruel to not feed someone for several weeks?

Wake up, people!
Until we have euthanasia laws, how can someone be starved to death over a long period of time? You couldn't do that to a dog, actually.

[shraby]

39. How does she communicate?

What words does she use? Tell me.

Life consists of much more than a feeding tube and laying in a bed day after day without mental interaction with others around you and no hope...absolutely no hope of anything ever changing. That is NOT life. That is existing. To exist for the sake of existing because someone wants to look at you is a cruelty in itself. Her parents should become human and do the loving thing for her and let her die with dignity.

[LisaL]

47. So, if someone is deaf and can not speak, they can not

communicate now? Words-is that the criteria for communication?
:spank:

[phylny]

84. I'm a speech-language pathologist

and every person I know in the profession would CERTAINLY know how to assist communication, if she could communicate. We do it all the time. Communication is NOT only using words, but you can use eye gaze, pointing, eye blinking, purposeful body movements, grunts, etc. We work with lots of people who cannot talk, but can communicate in one way or another. The trick is to make certain you're not reading into responses. Do a google search for "facilitated communication" and you'll learn about how people intentionally and unintentionally manipulate a patient's "responses" and make it look like a patient is communicating when they're not.

Of course, I haven't examined her, but it appears from what I've read that her responses are random, relexive responses and they are not purposeful. Any trained SLP or neurologist would easily be able to judge whether or not purposeful communication, either receptively or expressively, was demonstrated.

Since I work with people with disabilities, I am very respectful of life and of helping those with disabilities have the respect that they deserve. However, this case is different in that her husband is stating, and evidently no one can accurately refute it, that she did not and would not wish to "live" this way. Only her husband knows if this is true or false.

From the reports I have read, the neurologists (the ones with no agenda) say she's in a persistent vegetative state. By its very definition, this means she's not talking, and she doesn't have the capacity for, nor has she demonstrated, communicative intent. People who don't understand the neurology and science of brain function may be easily swayed by a carefully edited videotape that "shows" that by golly, she's COMMUNICATING. I can't imagine that any good neurologist would make a mistake about this. It's NOT a coma, it's totally different.

As others have stated in this thread, I think this whole "Save Terry" campaign has less to do with Terry and more to do with others' agendas.

[carpetbagger]

106. They communicate like this...

Their cortex synthesizes memories, sensory input, and thoughts and urges from other areas to generate a message that they would like to communicate. They then send signals through the motor strip of their cortex to move muscles, whether that be their eyes, hands, mouth, feet, or even just an eyelid.

Terri Schiavo has no motor strip. She has no significant amount of cortex left.

Meaningful awareness and communication requires a cerebral cortex. If you're missing one, you can't do these things. You can grunt (basal ganglia), you can withdraw (spinal tracks), you can grimace (thalamus and other lower centers), you can open your eyes and track (brainstem and reticular formation), but you can't communicate.

[Djinn]

131. bingo

and it's terribly distressing for loved ones who desperately want to cling to hope - you see the m,ovements and convince yourself they're "there" - tehy're not, it's just not possible after this injury and it's sickening that pepople's understandable hopes are preyed upon by the morality free zone that is right to life.

These freaks babble on about it being "God's" place to decide - God already decided - without medical intervention (and that's what tube feeding is) she would have died 13 years ago.

[dogtag]

44. Amen!

This is a new low for Larry King. How can he put Mr. & Mrs. P.T. Barnum on without some reliable scientific testimony for the other side. They want us to think that all these courts and all the judges who have heard this case over these many years just want to kill a woman who has any hope of coming out of a coma of this nature? Ridiculous!

[Pithlet]

60. I agree

My grandfather was in a similar state for over 12 years. 12 horrible, long years. He was not dependent on a feeding tube, however, so there was no tube to withdraw. But, it was a grueling, horrible time, and it was clear that his suffering was just a long, drawn out affair. I will never forget it.

I do not think the fact that he has now moved on in his life has any bearing whatsoever to his case. It has been years. He has held this position consistently and even provided care for her for a long time. He was a health care professional at the time, if I'm not mistaken. I think the husband genuinely has her interests at heart. I saw the tape that the family claims is evidence that she is not in a vegetative state, and they're just clinging to false hope. I know what that is like, because we did that with my grandfather for a long time. It's very hard to come to the conclusion that the person you love is no longer there. Obviously I have some emotional bias here, and this case brought back a lot of painful memories. When you just hear the family's side of the story, it is very compelling, until you get to the facts. I was on their side for awhile, until I dug deeper. It's a sad, horrible story all the way around :(

[SW FL Dem]

41. You are seeing the professionally produced and edited videos

paid for by the right to lifers. You don't see the whole truth. The woman has been in a persistant vegitative state for 14 years with no hope of improvement. I can't believe that Larry King is being this blatant in his coverage. Don't believe everything you see.

[951]

46. What is it like being a vegetable?

Are you conscious but yet stuck within yourself seeing everything but not being able to talk or move?

[LisaL]

50. For some people that came out of it, it's definitely like that.

I don't think there is any hope really Terri will ever come out of it, it's been too long, but it's cruel and barbaric to starve her to death. We are all upset over the be-headings. Is it not more barbaric to starve someone to death? At least be-headings are fast death, starving her could take up to several weeks.

[Djinn]

93. lizzy which people???

no-one has ever come out of PVS after 6 months - Terri has been this way for 13 YEARS, she had no oxygen to her brain for over 10 minutes, she is never going to wake up, she does not feel or think, and she does NOT communicate, a video of her "responding" to her parents is a video of her NON COGNITIVE movement - if you tape her 24/7 you'll get some footage that looks like communication IT ISNT

I can understand why people may think her husband has ulterior motives (although I think they are cruel peolpe with no idea what his life is like) but why do so many people think that Terri's doctors are part of some plan to "kill her"

And it would not take several weeks for ANYONE to starve to death

[dogtag]

61. Vegetables don't have brains.

Neither does Teri at this point. She is dead. Only her body is still alive. It can perhaps be kept alive indefinitely. Poked, prodded, hauled around, and used for nefarious political purposes by avaricious people. She was obviously a vital human being once. This is a sad endless death for her.

[Maddy McCall]

74. Dead? According to whom?

[Djinn]

94. all her doctors

any respectable neurologist..you know people NOT in the pocket of right wing right to lifers and her parents who are (understandably) clinging to a false hope that is cruelly held out to them by people willing to exploit their daughter for a politico/religious agenda

[Disturbed]

62. What has she said in the last few months?

If she can talk why not ask her what she wants to done for herself?

I notice that there is no answer to the question of what does she say.

The doctors are all wrong and the politicians are right?

[wolfgirl]

49. Consider this - Terri's husband

has stuck by her side defending her wishes...he could have moved on years ago, but he loves her and doesn't want to subject her any further to this so-called life. Terri's family loves her as well and they don't want to lose her. Yes, they said they would gladly take on her care themselves, but for how long. They are approaching their own last years. When they are gone, who then will provide for Terri.

All the physicians that were asked by the COURT to examine her (not just the famiy's physicians or her husband's doctors) agree that Terri is no longer with us. She can not and will not be restored to any semblence of her prior self. Any "responses" seen by the family are reflexive, not something she is controlling or actually providing some sort of response to a stimulus. Yes, her husband has started down the path to go one with his life. But he refuses to abandon Terri. He has not gained anything from this - all monetary awards have gone into the care of Terri - he hasn't gained anything.

[LisaL]

55. Now, most of what you said is not true.

Her husband had been awarded a lot of money to care for her, but he didn't spend it on her. He spend most of it on lawyers who fought to discontinue her life support.

[Djinn]

95. because that's what she wanted

[Cheswick2.0]

123. bullshit

She was awarded that money and he was made her gardian because he talked about how he was going to care for her and get her therapy etc... he did not. He almost immediately refuse routine treatment for her and he never got her any kind of therapy.
You don't know what she wanted and if he did he certainly didn't say so when he was fighting for the 6 figure financial settlement that would care for her.

[Djinn]

133. bullshit back

she had therapy for years IT IS POINTLESS

If you have some hidden medical knowledge that no-one else knows about return for people after their brain has been starved of oxygen for as long as hers was then please feel free to post to the Lancet immediately - many people would fete you as a miracle worker and medical genius - that is unless you have absolutely NO idea about the extent of brain damage she received.

I don't know exactly but I assume the cost of her day to day existance care is quite pricey - and if he has spent the money on lawyers then it hardly fits the theory he's after the cash - there's fuck all left so why wouldn't he pass the care over to her parents if that's what he thought they wanted.

[SW FL Dem]

101. wrong, Even Terri's parents said that

her husband didn't get any money and that all the money is gone. Anyone that says money is a motive is misinformed or lying.

[juajen]

126. Wrong

Her husband was just shown on LK stating that she just had $50,000 left. I would be very interested in knowing exactly what her care has cost over these years and who paid it. Obviously, the money was in her husband's control. Also, her parents just said that right after her "accident" her case was sent to homicide. They tried to get her case investigated to no avail. No witnesses, just her husband. She has injuries consistent with blows to the head, I believe. Does anyone remember? I also do not believe he even visits her, and hasn't for years. It's her family that give her comfort, not him.

[Nikia]

53. I'll agree with you too

Like many people with severe disabilities, Terry needs medical assistance in being fed. I don't really think that this is criteria for being mostly dead. It is my understanding that a feeding tube is not a machine. When my step mother was a teacher's aide at a school for the disabled, a couple otherwise active children had to be fed this way even though they could walk and even talk on their own. In my mind removing a feeding tube is just a form of neglect of the disabled.
We don't know what Terry wanted. Why should we assume that her husband knew what she wanted more than her parents? I would assume that this is the law unless otherwise designated, but in reality everyone has different relationships with their parents and spouses. Both parties obviously have different interests. Her husband is better off financially though if she dies.
Even though many of us would not want to live as severely disabled, we should not condemn the severely disabled to die. Who is severely disabled anyway? Many people are born severely disbaled or become so as a result of disease or accidents. Their care is often expensive. Wouldn't we all be better off as a society if we just let everyone die who couldn't take care of themselves with perhaps a few months of allowable recovery after accidents?

[Maddy McCall]

56. THANK YOU, Nikia

[Maddy McCall]

54. ARE WE NOT PROPONENTS OF STEM CELL RESEARCH?

Would this not be a case that, in the future, stem cell could help?

We all support Ron Reagan's stance on stem cell; wouldn't Terri be a future candidate? What if doctors could, in the future, help her in this way?

[amazona]

73. the part of her brain that regulates consciousness is gone

Stem cell research would, at best, create a new person with a new brain and that's 50 years away frankly. Terri is gone, 14 years gone. I don't say this cheaply, I had my own struggles with eating disorders. But the disease kills and, alas, in her case it killed that part of her brain that makes her conscious. Putting new cells there would not reawaken Terri although I suppose in some SF world you could create a humanoid robot in her body or something with stem cells.

I really don't think we should torture a once-human body based on bad science fiction plot lines.

[Maddy McCall]

79. Can you show documentation that what you say is so?

She IS conscious. She ISN'T in a vegetative state. What disease, with Terri, are you talking about?

So you are equating stem cell to "bad science fiction?"

[Djinn]

96. I may be wrong but as far as I'm aware

no-one has ever suggested sten cell reasearch may be able to return someone's cognitive functions after severe hypoxic brain damage. Please post such a suggestion if you've seen it anywhere but it doesn't make much sense in relation to the damage.

You're confusing "conscious" with "cognitive" If ALL her doctrs and those appointed by the court agree she is PVS (anything else after that length of hypoxia would be impossible btw) why do you keep insisting that she's not???

[Heyo]

142. Nope...

This case is beyond stem cells... stem cells would not bring this woman back...

Heyo

[whistle]

64. Jeb Bush has used the Terry Schiavo situation to further his...

...own political agenda and to align himself with voters who sympathize with Terry Schiavo and her family. Bush could care less what the victim (Terri)may be going through, what the husband has been put through and what the family is going through. All Bush cares about is driving home the Pro-life agenda and the neo-conservative battle with targeted liberal judges.

The courts have ruled, the best medical doctors have given their professional and espert opinions. Terri Schiavo is comatose and brain dead. Still the situation drags on primarily because Bush has thrown the power and weight of the office of the governor behind this case. Jeb Bush as governor should bow out of this and let the family decide what is best for Terri, for as the victim, Terri Schiavo has had no awareness of her surroundings since the night of he near fatal coma started some 14 or more years ago.

If you have new information or links that will provide new insights it would have been helpful to have the postings on this thread is to provide readers with the latest update in findings. I know of no change from one year ago in Terri Schiavo's condition or newly discovered possibilities for Terri to improve or recover at all from her state. Here was the last I read about the situation that provided any detail:

http://www.raggededgemagazine.com/mediacircus/schiavoanalysis2.html

[LisaL]

66. The problem is, who do you consider her family?

Her parents don't' want her to die, her husband insists on it.
Meanwhile, her husband is living with another woman and has 2 kids by her.
Would you consider this man to be Terri's husband when in reality he is all but married to this other woman?

[whistle]

87. I understand, but the court has weighed all of those facts and...

...has ruled on granting the husband's request. He still is legally Terri's husband and guardian.

[Cheswick2.0]

125. lucky him, he is going to inherit hundreds of thousands of dollars

which he was supposed to have spent on her treatment, but didn't.

[Djinn]

97. she's been in a PVS

for THIRTEEN YEARS how long should he have stayed celibate???

[Pithlet]

70. Absolutely. He had no right to step in.

I know I weighed in with my opinion on the matter, but really, this was between her husband, family, and the court. If her family had reason to believe that the husband did not have her interests at heart, then they had the right to try to step in. But, the courts ruled against them, and upheld her husband's decision. That should have been the end of the matter. All any of us have heard is information distorted by the media. Jeb should have stayed out of it.

[napi21]

77. jchild, you have obviously never had anyone in your family in this

situation! I HAVE! It wasn't my immediate family, but a very close uncle. I can't even tell you how many of his family, both immediate and distant wanted the feeding tube removed just to be kind and feeling to him, but the State of PA. forbids it. He also had a stroke, and the doctors said they though he would recover and recommended the feeding tube. In that state, once it's in, it cannot be removed. My uncle survived for 17 years, in the same vegetative state as Terri. The big difference is that he was 78 when he had his stroke! He was 95 when he passed away.

EVERY person who visited him in the hospital, friends, relatives, son, daughter, and his wife, all said DON'T EVER LET THIS HAPPEN TO ME!

I think you need to think long and hard about yourself. Is this what you would want for yourself? Be kept breathing, heart beating, and THAT'S ALL! I guarantee you, it's sure not what I want!

[Maddy McCall]

85. I love all the non sequiturs in this thread.

"Jchild, you need to think long and hard about yourself."

I have thought "long and hard" about myself, and *I* have a living will. Terri didn't.

[dogtag]

89. Most of us have a living will, but she didn't .

That's still no reason to subject her body to this cruel and unusual punishment. The ONLY good thing that can come out of this miserable story is that some people may get off their duffs and go to the stationers, buy the forms, fill them out and get them to the appropriate parties.

[Dob Bole]

88. I haven't communicated that I want to live....

So I would hope that the default is that I get to live.

My two cents.

[trumad]

91. As a Floridian, I've followed this case the last couple of years

It is nonsense propaganda to say that she talks.... It's flat out bullshit.... JChild, you continue to say that she is communicating by talking.... Bullshit...you're the one who needs to prove that because there is substantial evidence against that happening in Terri's state.

http://reason.com/links/links102303.shtml

Terri Schiavo has been in a persistent vegetative state since 1990. Her husband wants to withdraw the nutrition and hydration her body has been receiving and allow her body to die. Her mother, father, and sister—and now Florida Governor Jeb Bush—want to continue supplying her body with food and water until... what? She wakes up? Dies of pneumonia?

What is a persistent vegetative state? According to the National Institute for Neurological Disorders and Stroke people in PVS "have lost their thinking abilities and awareness of their surroundings, but retain non-cognitive function and normal sleep patterns. Even though those in a persistent vegetative state lose their higher brain functions, other key functions such as breathing and circulation remain relatively intact. Spontaneous movements may occur, and the eyes may open in response to external stimuli. They may even occasionally grimace, cry, or laugh. Although individuals in a persistent vegetative state may appear somewhat normal, they do not speak and they are unable to respond to commands." People suffering from PVS can generally be distinguished from afflicted but cognitively intact patients who suffer from "locked-in syndrome" by the fact that "locked in" patients can track visual stimuli and use eye blinks for communication.

According to most neurological experts, Terri Schiavo is definitely PVS—her eyes do not really track visual stimuli and she cannot communicate using eye blinks. However, Terri Schiavo's parents have posted several short ambiguous video clips online which are meant to show that Ms. Schiavo responds to stimuli. But what they show seems to fit an AMA's report of how PVS patients can respond to environmental cues without being aware. Specifically, the report notes, "Despite an 'alert demeanor', observation and examination repeatedly fail to demonstrate coherent speech, comprehension of the words of examiners or attendants, or any capacity to initiate or make consistently purposeful movements. Movements are largely confined to reflex withdrawals or posturing in response to noxious or other external stimuli. Since neither visual nor auditory signals require cortical integrity to stimulate brief orienting reflexes, some vegetative patients may turn the head or dart the eyes toward a noise or moving objects. However, PVS patients neither fixate upon nor consistently follow moving objects with the eyes, nor do they show other than startle responses to loud stimuli. They blink when air movements stimulate the cornea but not in the presence of visual threats per se."

Ms. Schiavo has been in this state for 13 years. What are her chances of recovering at least some awareness? Minnesota neurologist Ronald Cranford told the Washington Post, "There has never been a documented case of someone recovering after having been in a persistent vegetative state for more than 3 months. However, the journal Brain Injury reported the case, of a 26-year-old woman who, after being diagnosed as suffering from a persistent vegetative state for six months, recovered consciousness and, though severely disabled, is largely cognitively intact. However, it is generally agreed that if a patient doesn't become responsive before six months, his or her prognosis is extremely poor. A report on PVS by the Australian National Health and Medical Research Council finds that "patients in a state of post-coma unresponsiveness may emerge from it to become responsive," that "the probability of emergence becomes progressively less over time," and that "there is general agreement that emergence is less likely in older people, and in the victims of hypoxic brain damage." Terri Schiavo is the way she is because oxygen was cut off to her brain for 14 minutes; in other words, she suffered severe hypoxic brain damage.

So is Terri Schiavo still alive? The odds are way against it. It's time that her long-suffering parents and the grandstanding politicians let her go in peace.

[cidliz2004]

98. Thank you for so much information

I agree with you. Unfortunately, logic will not always prevail.

Some people refuse to let go. I believe that Terry's parents fall in to that category. They cannot let go of their daughter. I am more confused about the legal question than I am about the moral question. The moral question is easy, what does medical science say? How long has she been in this state. How many people have ever come out of this state in the same condition? Answering those questions really answer the question as to whether Terry will ever get better. What is actually going with Terry's quality of life? That is pretty self evident.

I know that I wouldn't want to live my life as Terry is living her life and is it fair to prolong her life because her parents won't let go? Is that a good enough reason to let somebody live trapped in that life. I wouldn't think so myself. I would certainly hope that no one would ever do that to me. (I have a living will) If you believe in God, why would you not want to be with your maker? If it is a loved one, why would you not want that person to be with their maker, in heaven? Corney as it sounds, to me it really is simple.

[carpetbagger]

102. Terri Schiavo's higher brain is gone. Not damaged, gone.

She's missing most, if not all, of her cerebral cortex. After it became nothing more than dead neurons, it liquified and was absorbed back into her body.

The part of her brain responsible for awareness is gone. Not sleeping, not dormant, not touch-and-go, not damaged. Gone. As gone as the cortex of Paul Wellstone.

The part of her brain that chooses words, and commands the muscles to make sounds, is gone. Not damaged, gone.

What Schiavo's parents are doing is understandable. What their preacher and Bush are doing is sick.

[FrozenNorth]

107. If that is the case then...

They should just give her a toxic drug cocktail. Put an end to it immediately, not just starve and dehydrate her to death. If we wouldn't do that to an animal why to a person? I'm uncomfortable with torturing her nearly mindless body... she might not have higher thought processes but can you be sure she dosen't feel? Even the lowest forms of life experience pain and stress. Put her down fast and call it a mercy killing, don't drag it out for days and possibly subject what is left of her to pain and suffering.

[carpetbagger]

111. That is illegal, even in Oregon.

Why? That's a whole other question. But if Michael Schiavo were to try to find a doctor to do that, he'd have difficulty, and the courts would have legal grounds to lock him up and hand custody of Terri Schiavo to her parents.

The question that Schiavo's husband tried to answer was if it was right to administer artificial formula through a tube to keep her alive. He thought it to be wrong.

Dehydration isn't terrible. If you've ever had a bad flu or something, you've probably had that feeling that you need to drink somehting but you're just too tired, so you go back to sleep.

[JCMach1]

109. Politicians should NOT make this decision and that includes

JEBtm.

If there is disagreement, it SHOULD be decided by the courts.

[shrike]

110. I feel sorry for her parents somewhat because they're deluding

themselves that she will get better. If her cerebral cortex is gone, she WON'T get better, end of story.

Maybe they're willing to take care of her as is. Fine. But they're not getting any younger, and who will take care of her, if she outlives them? Siblings? Relatives? Will the cost of her care fall on the state? What if her care impoverishes them in a few years, what then? Will they come to the taxpayers, seeking help? Will Floridians give it to them?

[juajen]

112. Yep, I hate to admit it, but I agree with him too

I think the ones that brought her into the world should have the final sayso in this, as long as it does not inconvenience the husband. Why does he care if she lives or dies? I still think there is money involved, though I heard that he had spent it all on her care. I am actually grateful that my daughters remain unmarried because of this, though they are all in steady, committed relaltionships. I love their fellas, but I would not want them making life and death decisions on behalf of my daughters who I've devoted my life to.

[Must_B_Free]

134. Imagine the living people that could be helped

by the resources being wasted on this vegetable.

Pull the plug and let her fend for herself. That will determine if she's living or not...

[Andromeda]

135. Well, if the husband has moved on,

and the parents want to take care of their daughter -- why not? I really don't understand why that's so unreasonable. Her parents love her and want to take care of her and if that will make them happy, and Terry happy, supposedly, what's the harm?

I will admit that I'm a little suspicious that the husband may stand to gain financially if Terry's plug is pulled. If he has a new life what difference does it make if she lives?

Starving a person to death is a horrible death and I wouldn't even do that to an animal. Assisted suicide would be better, if the person clearly indicated that that's what they'd want, but it's not legal.

[trumad]

136. Incredible

that if my wife were to end up like Terri...MY WIFE! that her Mom and Jeb would trump what I thought was best for my wife. This is just plain torture for the sake of dilusional parents and the politics of Jeb Bush.

For those who say Money is involved, shame on you....

[Brian_Expat]

137. Why do people get so emotional over this?

She has NO BRAIN LEFT. It's a head full of spinal fluid -- her brain died and rotted away. She has no awareness. The only part of her brain left is a tiny bit near the spinal cord that regulates breathing.

She's already dead, she's being kept animated.