Ok, dammit, I admit I was wrong about the Schiavo case.

[Maddy McCall]

I have read more about it, and I see that the parents are being used by the religious right.

To those of you in my thread who argued nicely with me, I hereby acknowledge that you were right and I should have read more about this case.

To those of you who were buttholes in my thread, you can eat fishheads. ;-)

[Djinn]

1. cool

I hope I wasn't a butthole - I think her parents are sincere and they clearly love their daughter - it's a shame that love is being exploited by the clueless religious right.

[LincolnMcGrath]

2. wow

:yourock:

[Norquist Nemesis]

3. I tried to stay out of it

:P

Actually, I was glad to hear the SC's ruling. It should never have been taken to court the way it was in the first place. While I have real sympathy for her parents, their deep agony allowed them to be taken advantage of. It's the RR that is directly responsible for tearing this family apart. Family values, Hah!

[ComerPerro]

4. How democratic of you

You shouldn't admit you were wrong! That makes you a flip-flopper! You are supposed to stay the course and keep all of your faith in the unwavering certainty that you are right. After all, that is what makes Bush so great, right?

:crazy:

Anyway, I didn't see your origional thread until after this one, but I gotta say:

wow.

that takes a lot, to post like this. I am impressed!

:hi:

[Zomby Woof]

5. you have a conscience after all!

I sure as hell won't take credit for that. ;-)

[carpetbagger]

6. Cr*p, I hate fishheads!

It's tough to even look at Terri Schiavo's parents on TV and disagree with them. Their video, however heavily edited, is compelling, and they are clearly people who are trying to do what they think is the best for their daughter.

[deek]

7. thank you--I truly am warmed by your change of heart

The neocons have taken Terri's life/death situation and warped it for their own agenda. This has turned it into right=prolife and left=right to die issues.

It is a civil rights issue.

I cancelled my ACLU membership over this.

I had to stop responding on this board and others because of the cruel and inhumane responses I received in defending Terri's right to live.

It is a disability issue.

People with disabilites were the first in line for Hitler's eugenics program.

It is a right-to-life for people with disabilities issue.

Supportive services for people with disabilities is in great danger with this (and "the terminator's) administration.

People with disabilites are not and should not be expendable.

Where is the compassion? Where is humanity?

To paraphrase a quote which I do not remember verbatim...A society should be judged on how it treats its most vunerable.

[DemBones DemBones]

10. Amen to all you said. Not Dead Yet!

Not Dead Yet supports the right to life of the disabled.


http://www.notdeadyet.org

[BurtWorm]

41. How do you know Terri "wants" to live?

I think you're setting up a false dichotomy between disabled and not disabled. You may not have created it, but you're apparently subject to it. Disability is a continuum with infinite shades along it. Everyone is to a degree disabled in some way. Almost everyone is able in some way. But there are people, like Terri Schiavo, who have crossed into a realm of utter dependence on others to keep her even minimally alive. Is she really alive, though? If what happened to Terri Schiavo happens to you, gods forbid, do you want to be kept in suspended animation until your heart some day quits working? Do you want people to be so responsible for you?

[Maddy McCall]

8. Kick

I want everyone to see my admission of flipfloppery. :-)

[REP]

9. Damn, I Missed My Chance For Free Fish Heads!

If I had seen that thread before I saw this one, I'd like to think that I'd've been a nice butthead.

Oh, and yeah, you SUCK for thinking about something and coming to a different conclusion than the one you orginally held, even if you now agree with me. How DARE you?

[DemBones DemBones]

11. The DU threads I've seen have never adequately addressed

the Terri Schiavo case as what it is: a case involving the rights of a severely disabled woman to live and to receive rehabilitation treatment.

"Discrimination against people with severe disabilities is part of our nation's history.  Eugenicists advocated for the involuntary euthanasia of 60,000 "hopeless cases" of persons with disabilities in institutions in the last century, and urged the killing of “defective” children. Thousands in our nation were sterilized against their will because they were “defective”. Infants born with disabilities have been denied lifesaving medical treatment. And people who become severely disabled, like Terri Schindler-Schiavo, are said to be better off dead."

(There have been many threads at DU saying how awful eugenics is, but the connection is not made between eugenics and Terri Schiavo. Why is that?)


"The fear of disability and the resulting bigotry adhered to by most non-disabled Americans is often cited by people with disabilities as a one of the most difficult barriers to overcome.  In a recent column, Bill Press stated, “I wouldn't want to live like that, would you?"  We respond: like what? Terri Schindler-Schiavo is characterized as "...a brain-damaged woman who has been kept alive artificially." Meant to signal horror, the concept has no real meaning to us who live by "artificial" means. Is a person on dialysis being kept alive artificially? Is a person taking insulin being kept alive artificially? Is a person who undergoes open-heart surgery, or cancer treatment, or intensive care in a hospital being kept alive artificially?"

<snip>

"Terri Schindler-Schiavo is said to be in a "persistent vegetative state." But is she? In court, the medical experts were divided.  Circuit Judge George Greer say she has not demonstrated sufficient actions to prove "cognitive function" because her actions were not "consistent" or "reproducible."  But Florida law defines "PVS" as a condition in which there is no evidence of responsiveness. By ignoring Florida law, Judge Greer has violated her due process rights, as many of us asserted in our friend-of-the court briefs." 

"Historically, many people with disabilities such as autism, Down syndrome and cerebral palsy have been thought to be incapable of communication. Increasingly, yesterday's assumptions about inability are being thrown out when confronted with the reality of people exceeding the low expectations put on them by others."



Killing the disabled: the first thing Hitler did.

[REP]

12. Start Your "Life - No Matter How Horrible" Fight Elsewhere

jchild started this thread for another purpose. Start your own thread, and use all your Godwin devices there.

[DemBones DemBones]

33. It's important to remember what Hitler did to the disabled,

not just trot him out to discredit Precott Bush who made money trading with the Nazis.

[deek]

13. I see you received your current issue of "Mouth" also!

Mouth Magazine, Voice of the DisLabeled Nation
http://www.mouthmag.com /


I enjoyed George Carlin's quote, "Death? No. There's only three things I want if I'm ever in the kind of shape: ice cream, morphine, and television."

[DemBones DemBones]

28. Actually, no, I don't subscribe to "Mouth," though

I probably should. I had lost them off my bookmarks, too, so many thanks for the reminder, and link.

I wish more progressives would become better informed about disability issues. We're still invisible. There are quite a few disabled DUers but I guess we have been too busy worrying about the overall future of the country to raise our own issues too often. Another factor is that we try not to focus on being disabled. It's an eye-opener every time I read the threads about Terri Schiavo. People do not 'get' disability.

I think we must start speaking out more.

[BurtWorm]

14. Disability is a continuum.

There is a point at which a person crosses into complete and total dependence on others for the very sustenance of their lives. Now it may be that on the other side of that point, that person ought to have a right to be kept alive. But it's unnecessarily confusing to argue that situations on both sides of the point ought to be considered equally, that if it's wrong to euthanize a person because he or she is blind, for example, it's wrong to euthanize any person with any disability.

The fact that heart patients are kept alive during surgery has more to do with the expectation of their recovery after surgery. This is not the same expectation most doctors have for people in Mary Schiavo's circumstances.

[Malva Zebrina]

17. this story and the way it has been presented has the classic earmark

of an urban legend the fundamentalist Christians are so fond of touting. I have seen the most ridiculous of stories touted as miracles.

There are so many, many people, who in their right mind, willingly sign a legal document specifically citing they do NOT want extraordinary measures used to keep them alive--artifically by machines or other devices once their brain has no function.

In that case, dem bones,would you say they are committing suicide? Would anyone ignore or invalidate that document because it does not say what they think should be done to another's body against their wishes, becasue of their religious beliefs?

I think not.

It is called a Living Will. It is legal. Persons of all ages should sign one. People with a sense of responsibility should NOT leave this to someone else to decide--usually a member of the family who suffers guilt for a long time for having to make the decision to pull the plug when a loved one is obviously by all intents and purposes, dead and being kept alive by artificial means.

[DemBones DemBones]

24. No, marianne, it is not suicide to refuse extraordinary measures

and I approve of living wills. People have every right to specify that they don't want extraordinary measures taken to prolong their lives.

Terri Schiavo did not have a living will. She has been using a feeding tube for years (which is neither high tech nor extraordinary.) After courts awarded her money for her care, her husband "remembered" that she would "want to die" in her condition. Since that time, he has refused rehabilitation care for Terri, and has sought a court order to remove the feeding tube and starve her to death.

(You talk about "pulling the plug" but in Terri's case it's not a plug to be pulled -- there is no ventilator or other machinery being used, just a simple feeding tube, operated by gravity.)

Terri's own religious beliefs are important here. She has been Catholic all her life and Catholicism, as you surely know, teaches that suicide is a mortal sin. Refusing a feeding tube is not considered a sin but when a person is dependent on a feeding tube, removing it is an act of murder or suicide, depending on who orders it. Her parents argue that Terri would regard it as suicide and would not do it.

Terri's husband apparently wants her to die so that he can marry his girlfriend, the mother of his two children. If Terri lives, he can't marry without getting a divorce, which would prevent the Catholic wedding his girlfriend wants.

I'd appreciate Terri's husband's consideration for his new fiancee's feelings about having a church wedding more if he had shown some respect for Terri's faith.
When Terri was being starved last year, before "Terri's Law" was passed, her husband refused to allow her priest to give her the last rites of the Roman Catholic Church.

Another part of this case are the issues about corporate-operated hospices (such as the one where Terri now lives) and their connections to organizations who promote euthanasia with or without the patient's consent. But that's a topic I'll address another time.

[shrike]

34. Catholic Diocese of Providence supported husband in similar case

The husband of the woman in question, who was not on a ventilator or any life support save a feeding tube, was fortunate in that both sides of the family supported his decision. The diocese backed him up, as did other Christian and Jewish leaders. The care facility in which she lived refused to allow the tube to be pulled, however, and would not discharge her. The Governor finally stepped in and asked them to discharge the woman so that a local hospital willing to honor the husband's instructions could admit her. She died there, quickly and quietly.

By the way, I'll quote a nurse's comments regarding feeding tubes: "If you think a feeding tube is food and water let me take you to lunch sometime."

[DemBones DemBones]

38. So? Each case is different.

And I've heard a lot of bizarre stuff from nurses. Some have bad attitudes about the disabled.

[merh]

46. I have often wondered if keeping a person alive by outside

means (feeding tubes, respirators, etc) is not interfering with God's plans and will. As a Catholic I have been taught that we do not know true life until we have died in the love of Christ and reborn in his glory and united with him in heaven. So, by keeping Terri alive are her parents contradicting the will of God?

God does not intend for us to live forever. True Christians should be willing to live their lifes in the example of Christ and be willing to go when it is their time. Extraordinary measures interfer with that simple notion. IMHO

It has always been a quandry for me.

BTW, I have a living will and have instructed my family that I NEVER want to be kept alive by machines of any type. That is not living, that is simply existing.

[Scairp]

19. This is not about eugenics

Terri Schiavo was not born disabled, she was struck down after being a healthy person previously. That is not the same as the advocation of the elimination of those born with birth defects, which is the general idea behind eugenics. (I know, it's real definition is selective breeding to eliminate defects). But it doesn't matter. This is about the basic right to be given food and water. We are all entitled to that. There is no way that her husband, in name only of course, should be allowed to decide she gets to starve to death. He still has not answered the question to anyone's satisfaction as to why he won't simply step out of the picture, after having moved on with his life with a new woman and children, and just let her parents take care of her. If there isn't any money left from the lawsuit, then he must hate her parents tremendously and he is doing all of this to hurt them, which, at the very least, makes him one twisted individual. I do not believe for one minute that he cares anything at all for Terri. I do hope the Florida courts finally side with the parents and make them her legal guardians. It's in her best interests, which are, after all, supposed to be paramount.

[DemBones DemBones]

26. Once you're disabled, you realize that you suddenly have

much in common with those who were born disabled. One of the sad realities is that most people who are not disabled don't understand what it's like to be disabled and assume that the lives of the severely disabled aren't worth preserving. It's in that sense, the idea that some people have no right to life, that this is tied to the attitudes associated with eugenics.

About the Schiavo case:

I've read that Terri's husband's fiancee wants a Catholic wedding, which she won't be able to have with a divorced man, and that's the reason he wants Terri to die.

Whatever his reason, I don't think he has ever acted in Terri's best interests.

[Randers]

15. I was just looking at the other thread

I didn't know enough about it either - but I was suspicious of Larry King just because I think there are so many isssues that are going under-reported. It seemed like a smokescreen.

Congratulations on your public reversal - that's very generous of you.

[Malva Zebrina]

16. You are a person with integrity

and honor. I salute you

[NanBo]

18. I admire your integrity for this eom

[Cheswick2.0]

20. you were not wrong

Just because the right wing has taken this up as a cause doesn't change anything. Republicans have hearts too and they also love their children. The parents are not being used. They aren't morons or puppets. They simply love their child.

Terri's "husband" is not the person who should be deciding her fate. He has failed to do anything resembling treatment for her even though he won custody of her (and control of her 750k trust fund) based on the fact that he promised to provide therapy.
Shortly after he won the case he started refusing simple treatments such as giving her anti-biotics when she had an infection.

Sometimes the left (speaking as someone to the far left of the democratic party) is as sheeplike as the right. There is no profit in being slavish in beliefs about euthnasia, assisted suicide etc... Sometimes there is nothing that will make lefties as irrational as knowing the right is on the other side of the argument.

I don't know if she should be allowed to die, but she certainly shouldn't be forced to die. Are giving food and water extreme life saving techniques? It's not like she is on a respirator or a heart machine.

Terri's husband has been a very dishonest and careless caretaker for her. He hasn't met the legal requirements for guardianship in the state of Florida. Time after time he was excused for his lack of treatment plan. It seems clear to me that he wanted to let her die many many years ago, even when he was being urged by doctors to try rehabilitation to see what could be returned to her.

He should divorce her and let her parents take care of her until she dies of natural causes. She is not in pain or distress and starving her to death is cruel even of only for her parents..... who by the way are now not allowed to even be at her side as it happens.

Remember this...he can not marry the mother of his children until Terri dies or he divorces her. If he divorces her he loses a lot of money.

[phylny]

21. How much money does he lose?

How do you know? Where did you get your information?

[trumad]

25. Nonsense... there is very little money left from the original lawsuit

People accuse the guy of doing this for money but people never say how much money is there....

[DemBones DemBones]

32. A lot of the money has been spent, but for lawyers in

attempts to kill Terri, rather than in care for Terri.

[Dookus]

29. the money argument is

lame and has been debunked. Why keep repeating it?

The fact is, legally, it is HIS decision, and that's entirely correct and proper. YOU do not get to decide which marriages are worthy of this respect and which one's aren't. In fact, the government doesn't get to decide this on a case-by-case basis, either.

The Christian Buttinskis who feel the need to insinutate their beliefs everywhere they go are simply wrong on this. Michael Schiavo has no responsibility to relinquish is marital rights because you guys say he should. Similarly, women don't give up their rights to abortion because the faux-moralists oppose it.

Why not just stay out of other people's lives?

[DemBones DemBones]

30. Thanks, Cheswick. It's chilling to see how many

DUers are opposed to Terri Schiavo living out her life.

Why don't people put themselves in the place of the disabled spouse whose loving husband or wife wants them to die?

(Because people don't want to think about being disabled themselves.)

[Dookus]

36. huh?

it's precisely because I *DO* think about being disabled in a way similar to Terri's that I reached my opinion. It just differs with yours, but that doesn't mean we haven't thought about it.

I really don't see how having an opinion on this particular legal case can be used to determine our views on disabilities and disabled rights.

[DemBones DemBones]

39. Have you thought about LIVING with a disability? Plenty of

people have thought "I'd rather die than have to (be in a wheelchair, be paralyzed, be in constant pain, not be able to do what I do now, etc.)"

Life is a bigger gift than most people appreciate. Even when you live it with disability.

[Dookus]

42. Yes, of course I have

I'd be shocked if somebody didn't ever think about that.

Terri is not merely disabled - she is gone. There is no hope for recovery. There is no treatment even imaginable that can grow her brain back.

The big issue here, though, is who gets to decide her future? I don't believe the Governor of Florida should. I believe the law is fine the way it is - the spouse is the person who gets to decide.

[shrike]

35. As I understand it, he can't divorce her

The woman is in limbo, between life and death, and she can't sign papers, let alone consent to a divorce.

[Pithlet]

22. You rock

:yourock: Not because your position changed, but that you started a a new thread admitting it. There are few here at DU or anywhere that would do that.

:thumbsup:

[janx]

23. I didn't know until now that you were discussing it. It's an emotional

case. But you're a smart woman, and I'm not surprised at the outcome.
;-)

[Toucano]

27. Good for you!

"Mistakes are a great educator when one is honest enough to admit them and willing to learn from them"

-Anonymous

[DemBones DemBones]

31. Michael Schiavo is being used by people whose aims

are at least as sinister as those of many of the people you would characterize as "the religious right." (The truly sinister religious right is made up of the "Christian Reconstructionists" and I doubt any of them care about the Schiavo case. They, after all, are the people who would condemn and execute Michael Schiavo and his girlfriend for adultery, if they had the power to do so.)

DUers need to educate themselves about the corporate hospices, the "Last Acts" people, etc. Some of the "end of life" people supporting Michael Schiavo support actively killing people for rather minor reasons. Disabled people see some nasty days ahead for us until people wake up.


Hitler killed the disabled first.

[Dookus]

37. Do you really think

this is an attempt to kill Terri simply because she's "disabled"? Do you think this is in any way related to Hitler's eugenics?

That's nuts.

[DemBones DemBones]

40. Do you really think

that there are NOT people who see others as "useless" if they cannot work?

Do you NOT know that Hitler killed the disabled?

THAT'S nuts!

[Dookus]

44. When did I even hint

that Hitler didn't kill the disabled?

My point was that it is irrelevant to this discussion.

[proud2BlibKansan]

43. I don't see the parents as being so innocent

She had a heart attack brought upon by anorexia. Her parents have admitted teasing her about being fat. So I think they might feel guilty about her condition.

[camero]

45. I thought it best to stay out of that one

It's been in the news down there too long.I had forgotten about the fundie aspect but you're right. They were behind the whole thing and kept the case in the courts long after it should have been.

[janx]

48. It's still in the courts--at least as of now:

http://www.bradenton.com/mld/bradenton/9776197.htm

MIAMI - The parents of a woman in the center of a right-to-die dispute said on national television Monday they will continue fighting to keep her alive despite a recent legal setback, and are putting their hopes on winning a new trial in a Thursday court hearing.

--snip--

The Schindlers' attorney, David Gibbs, told CNN's Larry King late Monday that legal scholars warned them that the law could be considered unconstitutional, and this week's hearing will take a different tact.

The Schindlers' attorneys will try to convince Circuit Judge George Greer to order a new trial to determine if Terri Schiavo, a Roman Catholic, would choose to have her feeding tube removed after recent statements by Pope John Paul II.

At a conference in March, the pope said people in vegetative states have a right to health care and nutrition.

(More at link)

[camero]

49. Just think if she was uninsured

She would have had her feeding tube yanked even if she could talk. That's a point that should be brought up. What a wonderful system we have, eh? The Right to Life until the money runs out that is.

[janx]

50. Take a gander at the links I posted in #49. n/t

[janx]

47. Here's more to read, if you're so inclined:

http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/111-10122003-176489.html


I think it's from last year.

And here is a transcript of last night's Larry King Schindler interview. It's punctuated by some clips of Michael Schiavo. If you read carefully (and I know you do), you can glean a lot from it.



http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0409/27/lkl.00.html

[phylny]

51. After reading for one minute, I already see one glaring problem.

NO speech-language pathologist I know of would ethically see a TAPE of someone and say this without examining a neurologist's report, doing a cranial nerve exam on their own, and doing a complete evaluation:

"M. SCHINDLER: She tries very hard to talk to me. She tries. There's a therapist, a speech therapist in Chicago that said that Terri, her tapes of Terri that we took tapes, she's talking, but she just needs some help with her vocal chords to get them, you know, where she can form words."

Unless you see a patient in person, it's unethical to make a judgment about their ability to speak. There are many other ways to communicate, and any good SLP knows this - you don't have to wait for help with "vocal chords" to communicate because speech isn't the only mode of communication. So, unless the SLP has somehow magically diagnosed vocal fold paralysis, I don't know what sort of help they think she needs. Total fabrication here.

After reading the rest of the transcript, I'd say that King didn't ask enough questions, nor did he ask the RIGHT questions, and the parents are riding the wave of sympathetic public opinion, no matter how poorly informed the public is.

[JCMach1]

52. Not need to admit anything in this case....

Of course the family is being used by the right...

Of course there may be legitimate questions about what to do in this case...

The executive and legislative branches should never get involved in such a case, because they are way too ignorant...

It should be the families and the courts that decide this...

I WOULD NOT want to be the judge in this case... I do know that much.