My brother voted for Gore last year and is voting for Bush this year.

[Worst Username Ever]

If I didn't love him so much, I'd fucking cut him off. He is very religious (he is in the seminary, getting his masters in Theology) and moral (just got married, did not have premarital sex with his spouse). Also, has always been a democrat (used to make fun of the repubes for being "sheep.") I think his new wife (also religious) gave him the kool-aide.

Luckily he is in CA, where I don't think it is going to make much of a difference, but I really am very disappointed right now. How could he be so ignorant??? There is no arguing with religious folks, once they decide Bush is a man of God I think it is hopeless.

Someone cheer me up.

On edit: I meant last ELECTION, sorry. A little flustered by this news right now.

[Irishladdie]

1. What did Gore run for last year??

JK.....LOL

Good For you and him!!! I love hearing this!!!

[bif]

4. Jinx. Owe me a coke.

[Irishladdie]

7. Actually I posted First...

It looks like you owe me!!LOL

[bif]

11. Virtual Coke, headin' your way.

Technically, it's the first person who says "Jinx".

[bif]

2. What was Gore running for last year?

[JHB]

3. Wasn't last year a little late to vote for Gore?

:evilgrin:

[Mistress Quickly]

5. No wonder Gore lost

:evilgrin:

[Paradise]

22. lol! the best! :) n/t

[GreenPartyVoter]

6. I am very sorry to hear this. I would say, though, that

you have lost him for now. However, you might be able to get him to vote for the Constitutionalists because they are even more conservative than the Repubs claim to be.

-----------------------------------------------
And God told His children: "I love you. Play nice."

Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/liberalchristians.htm

[AIJ Alom]

8. please send him this. copy and paste and email it to him.

A Tale of Two Presidents:
Why People Remember September 11, 2001 but Not January 1, 2000.
By AIJ Alom

Many Americans can recall the tragic events of September 11, 2001 and the resolve the nation showed in its aftermath. But many Americans forget Al Qaeda’s most devastating attack prior to 9/11.

Al Qaeda operatives launched devastating attacks on Americans domestically and abroad in eight other nations on January 1, 2000 while the world celebrated the start of the new millennium. The Millennium attacks left scores dead, and at that time were considered the deadliest attacks by Al Qaeda against Americans to date.

In the months following the Millennium attack, the media learned of the fortunate arrest of Ahmed Ressam at the US-Canadian border. Ressam was captured by hawk-eyed border patrol agents, several weeks before the attacks. Unfortunately, the Clinton Administration did not look into Ressam further, nor issue a press release on the arrest. Subsequently, several more of his cohorts entered the nation through the porous border undeterred, joined with those already in place and carried out the devastating attacks.

New evidence, declassified in July 2002, shows Bill Clinton failed to read a Presidential Daily Briefing given to him in November of 1999, a full month before the attacks. The memo entitled Bin Laden to Strike US to Coincide With Millennium Celebration provided by domestic and foreign intelligence sources was largely ignored by the Clinton administration. Sandy Berger, the National Security Adviser, when presented with the memo in 2002 said the threats were too vague and based on old intelligence. Berger also said that the Clinton administration had no idea which nations and airports were to be targeted. In a heated response he indicated that Americans were abroad in many nations and there are hundreds of airports in the United States.

One thing is certain, as head of the executive branch, Bill Clinton failed to alert federal and local law enforcement agencies both at home and abroad of the possible threat of terrorism. His inaction resulted in the deaths of countless scores of Americans and allies in 9 nations, including the United States. The brazenness of the attack was compounded by the fact the Clinton team did nothing to warn the general public. Many security experts agree that by simply alerting global law enforcement, especially after the Ressam incident, could have given us an important advantage.

Fortunately for America, Bill Clinton took his PDB’s seriously: the January 1, 2000 terror attacks never happened. It was foiled by a concerted effort by the Clinton Administration, CIA, FBI, and local and foreign governments and law enforcement agencies. Without the Department of Homeland Security, without terror alert levels, and without scaring the general public, they managed to thwart a global terrorist plot. The fact that most people do not remember the details of their heroics is a testament to their success. Nothing happened.

Now what would have happened if the same strategy had been employed by the Bush Administration to try to prevent September 11, 2001?

A review of recently declassified federal documents shows that devastating terrorist attacks on New York and Washington, DC in early September of 2001 were thwarted by the Bush administration. On August 6, 2001 the president received an intelligence memo (PDB) entitled Bin Laden Determined to Strike In US. The memo, though vague in nature and based on old intelligence was taken extremely seriously by President Bush and his administration. Bush cut his vacation at his Crawford ranch to fly back to Washington. As head of the executive branch, George Bush ordered the FBI and CIA to look into the threat both domestically and abroad.

Collin Powell and the State Department warned Americans overseas to be on the alert for possible terror attacks. He also asked foreign governments and law enforcement to be on high alert for any suspicious activity.

The first break in the case came on August 15, 2001. Zacarias Moussaoui was arrested and detained in Minnesota by the FBI on an immigration violation. Moussaoui, according to the FBI, was taking flight lessons and was reported by flight instructors. The most troubling aspect of Moussaoui’s desire to fly according to the flight instructors is that he was interested in knowing how much damage a 747 can do if it impacted with something.

Though this is only one man, the Bush administration quickly orders all domestic law enforcement agencies, border guards, and US airline security put on high alert for possible terrorism. Information on Zacarias Moussaoui and his possible terrorist connection is leaked to the press in order to deter any other would be terrorists.

Sure enough thanks to the Bush administrations diligence and hard work in August of 2001, September saw the arrests of a dozen or so would be terrorists. Most were caught because of their placement on a terrorist no-fly list which was updated after the Moussaoui incident. A pair was caught in flight schools in Florida by flight instructors who had read about Moussaoui in the local papers. Several others were caught at the border trying to enter with forged passports. A quartet including ringleader Mohammad Atta was caught by Airline security at Boston’s Logan airport.

The above scenario, though as much as we wish now, did not happen. Instead the FBI, CIA, border patrol, and airline security have taken most of the blame for the September 11, 2001 terrorist attack. They are not the ones that should be held accountable. Why did the Bush administration do nothing? Simple leadership on August 6, 2001 as displayed by Bill Clinton in the fall on 1999 could have stopped this attack as well. The enormity of September 11, 2001, the desire to come together as one nation, and the desire for revenge made us forget. It propelled us into fighting and supporting a retaliatory war in Afghanistan against Al Qaeda and a pre-emptive one in Iraq.

After 9/11, the president promised us we would get Osama Bin Laden dead or alive and smoke him out of his cave. Then six months later, in March of 2002 he had no idea where Bin Laden was and Bush said that it did not concern him, the war on terror was bigger than Bin Laden. Yet to this day, Bin Laden’s Al Qaeda is responsible for the murder of innocent school children in Beslan, Russia, the train bombing in Madrid, and dozens of other terrorist attacks. Bin Laden’s group has even recently threatened US elections. In spite of all this, George W Bush rarely mentions Osama Bin Laden by name. Think about it.

Why does George W Bush feel so strongly about pre-emption in Iraq? In his opinion, Iraq was his second chance to pre-empt a possible terrorist attack. He blew his first chance at pre-emption and more than three thousand souls paid the price.


Feel free to share or email the above op-ed with or to anyone you wish.

[maxsolomon]

9. ask him HOW bush is a 'man of god'?

i just watched a DVD of a horrid movie about convent laundries where 'fallen women' were put to work & abused. the magdeline laundries, i think. true story, supposedly. there's a scene where a priest is upbraided at a mass with the cry of 'you are not a man of god'.

if only bush could hear the same from devout christians.

[Worst Username Ever]

13. That is one of the things that is driving me nuts.

Bush CLAIMS to be a christian, but he certainly does not act that way. But my brother has stated that once you have accepted God as your savior, you are saved, and therefor Bush is the man. Nevermind that in my opinion Kerry is a much better christian, not just in that he does not "Advertise" (I beleive the bible specifically states to go into a room and light a candle and pray, don't flaunt it) but his actions are always for the benefit of others, not for a POWER GRAB like the shrub. AAAHHHH!!!

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

37. The so called "Saved" thing is one the I can't stand about the fundies.

As one who was raised Roman Catholic I was thought that Salvation was part of a life long struggle. In a society so prone to instant gratification it is hardly surprising a religion that promises instant salvation is so popular.

[Vickers]

10. Like a lot of Bush-supporters, he is suffering from "dirty water buildup"

It's a fact: if you ain't gettin' laid regularly, it makes you stupid.

:spank:

Seriously though, I think I am the only person in my family voting for Kerry...all of my siblings need to get laid, too.

[Worst Username Ever]

15. He's the only one in my immediate family to have

been duped, my parents, step family, and grand-parents on my dad's side are all very liberal. As am I, obviously. My grandparents on my mom's side used to be old-school new-england dems, but now they have money and live in Orange County and are Reagan-repubs. But I think they are still voting for *.

[coloradodem2005]

21. Hey!! I am not getting laid.

But I am voting for Kerry. :grr:

[calico1]

12. It just amazes me that people

actually think Bush is so "moral."

[newsguyatl]

14. he's a moron

sorry.

just true.

[Worst Username Ever]

17. Well, I am hoping that he is NOT a moron/moran,

but has just temporarily had the wool pulled over his eyes. I am hoping whatever is causing this is temporary, and not the permanent result of his christianity. God! One issue voters.

[Frances]

16. Can he honestly say that Jesus

would vote for Bush?

I could not.

[Worst Username Ever]

18. Exactly

I agree.

[coalition_unwilling]

25. Who would Jesus torture?

I dare you to ask him that.

Also, who would Jesus authorize the torture of (as Rumsfeld and his cabal did)?

[Worst Username Ever]

27. I agree with you on that

that is what I mean when I say that bush is NOT a christian, he just claims it. If the subject comes up between he and I again before the election, I most certainly will ask him this. We are close enough where I am hoping he can at least give me an honest answer.

[coalition_unwilling]

31. Abu Graib (and its ilk at Gitmo and Bagram AFB)

have, imho, pretty much laid to rest any claim the U.S. under Bush might have to be propagating Christian values.

As one sign at an anti-war demo put it, 'Backward Christian Soldiers.'

[shawn703]

19. Have him read the Sermon on the Mount

And have him reflect on this bit of Scripture while thinking about what Bush did as President.

Some Scripture you could point out:
Matthew 5:43-48
43 "You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
44But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.


Matthew 6:5-7
5 "And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 6But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. 7And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.

Matthew 7:15-20
15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Matthew 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

[Worst Username Ever]

26. I bookmarked ya, thanks

[Occulus]

28. this line makes me wonder

" For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men."

Can this be taken as an argument against organized religion in general?

[shawn703]

49. No, this was directed at people who prayed to bring glory to themselves

instead of to God. Here's something:

Hebrews 10:24-26

24And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. 26For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins

[ladjf]

20. I'm sorry. But, I think your brother might need psychiatric therapy.

[Worst Username Ever]

23. Ha! That's funny because he actually has been in therapy.

Maybe a connection?

[ladjf]

47. I felt a bit badly about saying that your brother might need

therapy.

Let me explain what I really meant.

I believe that the right-wing fundamentalist and dominionists who are ardently supporting Bush, regardless of overwhelming evidence against him, are actually suffering for an array of delusions, similar to those who are members of religious cults. It has become a national, if not global, epidemic. Now that they have almost completely taken over the political process in the U.S., they threaten to force their
nihilistic views on the entire world, with dire consequences for ALL.

In order to reverse this situation, mass de-programming efforts would need to be carried out. And since they think they are the only ones
who are sane, they certainly aren't going to submit to therapy.

Your brother, on the other, might be willing to listen to reason if his cognitive processes haven't been permanently damaged.

Good luck with him.

[mmonk]

24. Ask him what god?

Also, ask him to read the words of Jesus (not as espoused by Paul after the crucifixion). Ask him where he sees Jesus in bush's context or what he stands for.

[Qanisqineq]

29. you have the *exact* same problem as me

only it's my sister. She is very religious... going to seminary next year, just got married to the man that seemed to change her. She was a democrat, a political science major as an undergrad.

Exact same story with her. Eerie. Only she's in Minnesota and I don't know how close * and Kerry are there.

[Worst Username Ever]

33. I live in Minnesota

Which is another wird coincidence between our stories. Kerry leads bush relatively comfortably in the private polls (by around 10 points) and a lot closer in the corporate polls. What is up with these people.

[Crunchy Frog]

30. Maybe hook him up

with some of the material from Sojourners, http://www.sojo.net/ for an alternative view on the meaning of Christianity.

Maybe you just need to shake some things loose and get him thinking and asking questions a little. Good luck.

[Worst Username Ever]

35. I bookmarked that site for ammo

He has always been heavily Christian, and used to ask the tough questions. He once stopped attending a certain church when he found out the preacher believed in creationism, for example.

[RollergirlVT]

32. Have you asked him

What evidence B*sh has demonstrated that he is truley a religous man? Anyone can make the claim, but what actions has shown it to be true?

[lawladyprof]

34. Faith vs. good works

Assuming "born again" or saved alone is sufficient, that only covers Bush as far as God is concerned (above my pay grade to interfere with that). It does not, however, absolve him of his duties, responsibilities, and accountability here on earth. If this weren't so, then anyone who claimed (rightly or wrongly, in all honesty or disingenuously) to be saved would be "off the hook" (think criminals, workers, spouses, bad children, etc.) or entitled to hold a position for which he or she was not qualified (don't care if my brain surgeon is saved, want him or her to be highly competent) or exempt from being fired.

[Worst Username Ever]

36. Yes

we have had discussion of grace through faith v. grace through good works. He is of the grace through faith variety. You are right, this does not qualify someone to be president either way, in my opinion, but for those who want to see Christianity spread through the western world, I would imagine having a fundy in office is desirable.

[merh]

38. Suggest you go to the thread at the link below

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=907051

Many good posts regarding * & religion (or being the anti-christ). I recommend RevCheeshead's posts and then viewing the link http://www.bushflash.com/faith.html. Your brother is not a Christian if he can vote for * - no true Christian can rectify in their hearts the conflict that * presents relative to the messages of the bible and the destructive policies of the * admin. It simply does not compute.

===============================

RevCheesehead (782 posts) Tue Sep-28-04 12:28 AM

43. I think the Gospels are clear:

(Mark 13:22-23) "False Messiahs and false prophets will appear and produce signs and omens, to lead astray, if possible, the elect. But be alert; I have already told you everything!"

(Matthew 24:23-24) "Then if anyone says to you, 'Look! Here is the Messiah!' or 'There he is!' - do not believe it. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and produce great signs and omens..."

(Matthew 24:36) "But about that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

(Luke 21:7-8) "They asked (Jesus), 'Teacher, when will this be, and what will be the sign that this is about to take place?' And he said, "Beware that you are not led astray; for many will come in my name and say 'I am he!,' and, 'The time is near!' Do not go after them."

See also:
Matthew 25:31-46 The judgment of the Nations (the sheep and the goats)

Luke 17:20-37 The Coming of the Kingdom

*************
Tell 'em The Cheese says so (United Methodist, Duke Divinity grad).

===================================

http://www.bushflash.com/faith.html

[Worst Username Ever]

39. Thanks!

I need all the ammo I can get!

[mitchum]

40. Maybe your brother can be a chaplain in a COMBAT ZONE

the dumbass deserves nothing less

[Worst Username Ever]

42. Well I don't really appreciate the thought of killing my brother

and he does not support the war, its the christianity thing that is the issue. Although he has said that if he were drafted, he would press for non-combatant duty as a chaplain, which I find respectable.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

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[TexasSissy]

41. Sorry to have to be so harsh about him, but your brother is

now part of the "religious right," the "Christian far right," the "regligious fanatics."

Since he's now in the "bizness" of religion, your words would be wasted on him. Don't blame his wife. Each of us is the master of our own mind. You might as well accept it, since unless he leaves the "bizness," he will be voting where his pockets are until the end of time. (Of course, there are some ministers and regligious people who do not vote Republican, so I guess he COULD go that route.)

My father, after a lifetime of Republican bigotry and sinful living, became a born again Christian years ago. Now he's a Republican Christian bigot who will ALWAYS vote with the fundamentalists. Nothing I can do about it.

[ladjf]

48. The have the symptoms of being in a cult.

[Carson]

43. I can speak for the Bush*-voters in my family...

They do not think he is a "Man of God". There's plenty of issues they disagree with * on. However, they feel he's more in touch with what they consider "morally important".

To them, * is the lesser of two evils. Bush* is not as fiscally conservative as they would like (I've heard the term "Rockefeller Republican" often), but in their minds, he's the better choice. The "far left wackos" scare them and they feel Kerry is one of that tribe. In fact, these members of my family I'm speaking of ARE Democrats, but haven't voted that way in years. They feel the "far left" has hijacked the Party.

It all goes back to the one or two issue voters, I think.

[Worst Username Ever]

46. That seems to be the case with a lot of folks.

By brothers-in-law-to-be are gun toting, hunting, drinking, pro-war, angry rebublicans. They say they hate Bush, but the hate Kerry more. Not sure how that is possible but that seem to be the case with a lot of folks.

[Zorra]

44. Don't worry. He is only one of 2 people that voted for Gore that will

vote for Bu$h.

I hear the other one is now considering voting for Kerry.

[Worst Username Ever]

45. Ha! Excellent.

I was worried there for a bit!

[Ezlivin]

50. Don't you mean "ex-brother"?

Hey, I graduated with my Master's in theology, never had sex with anyone other than my wife and never voted for a Democrat in my life.

But Bush is so fucking scary I've become an atheist and will never again vote Republican.

And I've started cheating on my wife, too.

:)

(Just kidding on the adultery line. My wife of 26 years would dump me out of my wheelchair.)

[Worst Username Ever]

52. Hey! That's great.

It's encouraging to hear that not all hope is lost with him!!

[InfoMinister]

51. How Does He Feel About Jerry Falwell Bossing Bush Around?

Does he like Jerry Falwell and the 700 Club people?

[Worst Username Ever]

53. Thats a good questions

I don't know how he feels about them. He was never really a fundie, but this latest news makes me wonder if he has gone over??

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

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