In Atlanta, 14% of Black Men Can't Vote

[CatWoman]

By Darryl Fears
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, September 23, 2004; Page A10

The Sentencing Project released a study yesterday showing that about 14 percent of black men in Atlanta cannot vote because they are in prison, on probation or on parole.

A study of Providence by the Rhode Island Family Life Center, released simultaneously with the Atlanta report, had similar findings. That study showed that 32 percent of black men from ages 18 to 34 could not vote, compared with 3 percent of white men and 10 percent of Hispanics.

The Georgia findings are important, said Ryan S. King, a co-author of the study, because the laws barring felons from voting "are representative of a number of other states. . . . We do believe the trend we see in Atlanta neighborhoods is representative of trends we would see across the country."

Black men in Atlanta were 11 times more likely than nonblack men to be disenfranchised, the study showed. In 11 of the city's neighborhoods, more than 10 percent of 11,689 black males were disenfranchised. Less than 2 percent of nonblack males are not allowed to vote in the city, compared with 14 percent of black males.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A43099-2004Sep22

[underpants]

1. Absolutely disgraceful

Seems that the war on drugs has been successful afterall.

[FatSlob]

2. Felons should be disenfranchised. They should have no vote.

They, through criminal acts, have brought it upon themselves. Upon conviction, felons typically lose the ability to hold positions of public trust, to own or posess firearms, and to vote. I do also believe that they should be able to have rights restored upons sucessful petition to the court. I find it disgraceful that felons in some places can vote.

[noiretextatique]

6. why?

what purpose does disenfranchisement serve?

[TahitiNut]

12. There are many obvious purposes.

(1) Those who have the most first-hand experience with Police State practices are excluded from the electorate, thus precluding any candidate for office from taking a stance opposing such practices.

(2) Those who have first-hand experience and expertise regarding issues of Prison Reform are likewise excluded from the electorate, alsp precluding any candidate for office from taking a stance in favor of Prison Reform.

(3) Compounded racial bigotry. (That's abundantly clear.)

---

Hugs, luv! :hug:

[noiretextatique]

17. i was hoping the poster actually had

a pro-disenfranchisement argument, but i believe most pronouncements of this sort are from the "everybody knows" school of rw wedge issue thought.
why else would democrats support disenfranchising likely democratic voters? oh wait...never mind :eyes:

:loveya: great to see you, friend :hi:

[FatSlob]

37. I don't care how they vote.

They have given it up by their criminal actions. Do we want to be known as the party of convicted felons? "And in the news...Senator Kerry has the support of 74% of felons." They should have no vote, no guns, no public office. In my mind, those who have committed felonies are not qualified to do any of these. However, as I've said numerous times, I feel that these criminals should be able to appeal to the court that convicted them for restoration of rights upon the end of incarceration or court supervision. BTW, it has been said that felons are more likely to vote Democrat. Why?

[noiretextatique]

39. what purpose does disenfranchisement serve?

other than to limit the number of voters?
which party does that tend to serve?

convicted felons...that's laughable considering the people who are currently running the government.

in a just world, most of them would be convicted felons.

[FatSlob]

60. The purpose is to prevent CRIMINALS from influencing our elections.

As a gun owner, I despise felons. They aren't allowed to own guns, they should not be allowed to vote. They have given up freedoms due to their behaviour. When I think of a felon voting, I think of this picture.

Note, I think that a judge should be able to restore rights.

[jumpstart33]

67. So then, Martha Stewart, Fastow and wife, and Ollie North and the other

Regan felons should not be allowed to vote either...oh, I forgot, they were pardoned.

A felony can be a minor offense so people should losed their right to vote for minor ofenses. Some felons were convicted erroniously or by planted evidence by police. I wonder just how many white felons are really purged from the voting lists?

[FatSlob]

79. Did you not note the portion about the court restoring rights?

I find it shocking that we are supporting criminals voting just because they might vote for us.

[DrWeird]

68. Not really.

It's to prevent black people/ democrats voting in elections.

It's kind of like the literacy tests. They said they were to prevent stupid people from voting in the elections. Ironically, you had to be pretty stupid if you believed that.

[FatSlob]

78. Are you saying that Democrats are more likely to be criminals?

[noiretextatique]

81. are these people democrats?

george bush
dick cheney
jeb bush
katherine harris
colin powell
the supreme five

poor people and people of color are more likely to be arrested, convicted and sent to prison for their crimes, unlike wealthy republican criminals.

[FatSlob]

85. Point taken, thanks for clearing it up.

[SoCalDem]

86. If every one got REALLY EQUAL legal representation in court,

and fair treatment by the police departments, I might agree with you. I maintain that there are PLENTY of criminals who are well-paid executives in corporations all over the country..They have ONE big difference..They have high-paid lawyers to do their bidding..

That's the only reason they still have voting rights..

When the "debt to scoiety" has been paid, the rights should be restored..It's just that simple..

One exception...VOTE FRAUD..

[Zynx]

72. There are so many low grade felonies that's a ridiculous statement.

Murder, rape, and other things fine, but once a person has paid their debt to society, they should be able to vote. This is particularly the case since so many are wrongly convicted.

[0007]

75. Fatslob said even if a person has paid their debt to society

they still can't vote.

I wonder if Fatslob would give you a pork chop if you gave Fatslob a pig?

[qwlauren35]

83. I wish I agreed...

We have too much unfair sentencing and too many unfair laws for me to agree with you. The are huge numbers of white men who should be convicted felons for drunk driving... but they aren't. There are huge numbers of white men selling cocaine to the the rich and famous. They should be disenfranchised... but they are not. There are huge numbers of white businessmen who routinely embezzle from their companies. They should be disenfranchised... but they're not.

I remember hearing about an employee who stole over $800,000 worth of technical equipment... but the company didn't prosecute. They JUST fired him...

For reasons that seem QUITE obvious to me, a lot of criminals aren't caught. So for you to single out the ones who get caught as deserving of disenfranchisement is simply laughable as far as I'm concerned.

[dubyagottogo]

3. Voting from Prison?

It appears here you are saying that drug pushers, murderers, rapists, et al are being disenfranchised because they can't vote. If voting is important to you and you know you can't vote if you go to jail, why do something to get thrown in jail.

Voting is a right and frankly a responsibility and should be reserved to people who haven't lost their right by being irresponsible.

[noiretextatique]

5. what about those people who are innocent?

some people who are innocent actually get convicted.

[noiretextatique]

4. these laws only target certain groups

not the ken lay/george bush/dick cheney type of criminal.

[CatWoman]

7. I can't believe some of the responses to this thread

*sigh*

on another note: :hi: Karen.

good to see you!!!

[noiretextatique]

15. hey midori...surely you aren't surprised

:hi: given that you live in denise majette's neck of the wood :D i hear she as a really liberal voting record though. "our side" :puke:

[CatWoman]

19. lol

well, I have no choice but to vote for her.

she's not that far behind.

of course, you know, she is running for Zell's vacant seat.

[noiretextatique]

21. i heard....at least she seems to be

towing the line...for now :D

[dubyagottogo]

8. If you let them vote....

for the leadership in their community or the country then why not just let them run the streets. They are in jail because they are deemed to not be a responsible part of society so why give them the right to determine how society should be run.

[DrWeird]

10. They're in jail...

because they have some marijuana on them.

Meanwhile Bush is snorting coke at Kennebunkport.

And everybody, including you, knows it.

It's fucking racism. Pure and simple.

[noiretextatique]

11. bullshit...they are political prisoners, for the most

in america's never-ending scheme to criminalize black men, in particular.
this is yet another wedge issue that folks support for all the wrong reasons.

[dubyagottogo]

9. You say these laws.

The article is not saying people who broke certain laws are being disenfranchised - it is saying felons are not allowed to vote.

[noiretextatique]

13. bull...black men are more likely to be arrested

more likely to be convicted, and more likely to get longer sentences than just about any other group. simple-minded solution for an easily controlled and simple-minded population...that's why the rw is in power now.

[underpants]

14. The point isn't who broke laws but who got caught

Having grown up in the 'burbs I can tell you that a random sweep of of the high school parking lots would result in as many arrests there as in "the hood".

Amongst other things.

[dubyagottogo]

16. Once again...

If voting is important to you and you know you can't vote if you go to jail, why do something to get thrown in jail. If they are too irresponsible to stay out of jail - do you really want them voting????

The article doesn't say anything about marijuana, although I am sure alot of them are convicted for drug use or crimes they committed because they were on drugs. It doesn't matter - STAY OUT OF JAIL.

[noiretextatique]

20. i think you need to work on your argument

unless you advocate a police state, where everyone who is arrested or convicted is presumed to be guilty. what's the point of the trial?

[dubyagottogo]

25. I respectfully do not understand your argument...

Once again you are adding your own comments to the article. Who said anything about arrested people losing rights. If they are convicted through our justice system and sent to jail, they lose rights. Should prisoners not lose any rights?

Why do you think if prisoners lose their right to vote, it only effects democrats. Republicans don't commit crimes?

I think you are equating our justice system with a police state. We shouldn't have trials because an innocent person may be found guilty and then lose his rights. All murderers should go free because the trials may not be fair.

What do you suggest you do with persons breaking the law. Give 'em a break. Tell them not to do it again.

I lived in New Orleans for 25 years but left because the crime got so bad. It wasn't the guy on the corner smoking a joint that made it bad. It was the worst murder rate in the country..... Don't think every felon in Atlanta was only arrested for marijuana - they have over 40 murders per 100,000 people. That's pitiful.

[noiretextatique]

30. do you *really* believe people like ken lay don't get to vote?

i don't. nor do i believe criminalizing people for marijuana is sound public policy...unless of course you are more concerned about building a prison industry than having a fair and reasonable criminal justice system, based on fair and reasonable laws and standands.

punishment is prison...disenfranshisement serves NO PURPOSE other than to ensure more republicans will be elected...that's why these laws are cropping up only in certain states.

the worse murder rate right now is in IRAQ.

[DrWeird]

22. Rush Limbaugh?

Is that you?

[CatWoman]

23. *GULP*

gotta be.

that sound was another pill going down.

[dubyagottogo]

26. Not Rush

Just a guy whose brother was murdered and doesn't think his murderer should be allowed the same rights responsible Americans.....

[noiretextatique]

28. so you have a personal axe to grind

i can understand that...and sorry for your loss. do you really think disenfranchising *certain* unpopular groups is good public policy though?

[dubyagottogo]

32. What I really believe...

is voting is an important responsibility. I don't call preventing a prisoner from voting being disenfranchised. Be responsible in your actions and you can participate in the American dream.

If someone with the right to vote is being denied, then we should all help correct that. I guess I am big on responsibility. There is nothing that says you can't call your local clerk of court to make sure you are registered and make sure you know where to go. I recently moved, it took me 3 minutes to find out where the polling place was. A simple phone call can prevent disenfranchisement....

[DrWeird]

34. You're feigning ignorance.

You know that rates of drug use are equal among white populations and black populations, yet blacks are far more likely to be denied the right to vote because of their drug use. You know that blacks are far more likely to be wrongfully convicted. You know that blacks who never committed a felony are being told that they did when they show up to the correct polling place and are being denied their supposedly inalienable right to vote.

So why are you being a pollyanna and supporting thoroughly racist policies?

[noiretextatique]

36. LOL...straight, no chaser.

"So why are you being a pollyanna and supporting thoroughly racist policies?"

this should be on billboards in all the red (and blue) states. it covers just about everything from the war to the war on drugs.

[DrWeird]

38. I'm just sick of all the BS.

"Doyyy, I can't see my nose in front of my own face, so it's up to you to prove that it's there."

[noiretextatique]

43. likewise, friend

truly sick of the self-serving cluelessness.

[noiretextatique]

35. you do know that these laws

and don't exist in most states, don't you? only in certain places where disenfranchising folks has a long and treasured history.

it seems to me that felons are the people who need to learn responsiblity most, and we all know most felons aren't exactly rockfellers.

great...so every black person in the south can't simply assume they are registered, and need to make phone calls ahead instead :eyes:

i suppose that's one way to deal with lying, cheating republicans.

[DrWeird]

29. Hey, I had my whole family blown up by lesbian nuns.

That doesn't mean I can go and discriminate against catholics.

[Terran]

64. Murder is one thing, but...

I can sure see why you might think murderers shouldn't be allowed to vote. But what about all the bullshit drug arrests that are made? So many young Black men get felony convictions for selling weed, a harmless substance, and many of them are just trying to support families because they can't get a decent-paying job. That's part of the point being made here that you don't seem to be understanding: there are reasons why a disporportionate number of Black males have felony convictions, and they are not legitimate or good reasons like murder. They're bullshit reasons.

[JI7]

18. no wonder Democrats are losing in Georgia , and many of them are innocent

or unfairly put away for longer than most .

[951]

24. So they decided to become felons they should have thought ...

about it before they commited the crime. If they don't like it they shouldnt commit crimes, tough luck I suppose

[noiretextatique]

27. this is partly why GORE lost the election in 2000

some people who were purged weren't even felons.

that's why republicans are emboldened to do exactly what they did in florida in 2000 in 2004.

[DrWeird]

42. this is partly why Gore lost the election in 2000.

People who were otherwise liberal had their heads shoved so far up their asses they couldn't think their way out of a RW talking point.

[Forkboy]

41. You seem like a consistant sort

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

31. Jim Crow is alive and well.

The racists never give up. The Civil War is a prime example of a war won and a peace lost. Disenfrachisement of blacks has always been a priority in the south - and anywhere else that they can get away with it.

[noiretextatique]

33. i don't think the pro-disenfranchisement folks connect those dots

the rw has done a great job in this area.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

45. Absolutely right. They prefer stereotypes to democracy.

Dontcha know that all black men are drug dealers and murderers? All black women have dozens of kids so they can get more welfare? Or, the "liberal" view, "We've made great strides...". White "liberal" that is.

It's much easier to blame the victim than have to face the reality of racism still infecting this country and actually doing something about it.

BTW I am white but have studied the history of racism in this country and am convinced that it is little changed from the days of reconstruction.

[noiretextatique]

53. i hear you bandera....here's one way to stop

erroneous voter purging, per a suggestion in this thread.

every black person in florida should call before to see if the are on the rolls. now, of course, this is a good idea considering what happened in 2000, but as you mentioned, it shifts the responsibility back on the victims.

the disenfranchisment issue is a painful one for many, and to see some of our allies dismiss it as no big deal speaks volumes, considering the overwhelming support for the democratic party among black voters.

it's disgraceful....the disenfranchisment...the war on drugs...the rw manipulation of race...and that so many don't see the pattern. just disgraceful that we are still in education mode on racial issues in the is pathetic country.

but...that's the way it is, isn't is? and i agree...very little progress.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

40. I don't get the argument...

people serving a sentence for a felony conviction are not allowed to vote. Upon completion of their sentence, their right to vote is restored. What is the problem? I agree for the few that were innocent of the charges upon which they were convicted, but the others ARE convicted via the judicial system as we have it. A felon can be denied the right to liberty due to a conviction...why not voting?

theProdigal

By they way, all those people who face felony convictions in the Enron collapes...they will not be able to vote until THEIR parole/probation is finished either.

OnEdit : Martha Stewart, too

[noiretextatique]

46. i'm not sure that voting rights are always automatically restored

one of the problems with these laws. and WHY disenfranchise in the first place?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

48. disenfranchisement is part of the punishment

and is no different than losing one's liberty for the duration of the sentence. It is harsh, I agree, but is still punitive.

For further information on which states grant voting privileges to convicted felons I have found this table to be MOST helpful...I cannot vouch for its accuracy but I think the source is legit...

http://www.ncsl.org/programs/legman/elect/voterights.htm

theProdigal

[DrWeird]

51. You've still got the racist justice system.

That hands out convictions to black drug users faster then it does to white drug users.

So either clean up the justice system or allow felons to vote.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

54. ok...let's clean it up...

can't argue with you there...but where to (rather how to) start? Force everyone to have a public defender? I think that might work for getting the money out of the system...would fuck a lot of lawyer though...

I would really like to hear some ideas on how to fix this situation. I agree that our justice system has some flaws that lean toward disproportionate conviction rates. Have we done enough to ensure that the cops are applying equal treatment?

theProdigal

[DrWeird]

47. Depending on the state...

convicted felons lose the right to vote regardless of the felony or whether they served their sentence.

So the guy who had the dime bag is treated the same way as the killer.

[dubyagottogo]

49. Boy, Personal Responsibility is a Bitch......

I assume you can vote, I will assume you are not a felon. How come....?

[DrWeird]

55. Personal responsibilty has nothing to do with it.

That's like saying the woman who the Taliban shot in the back of the head because she wasn't wearing her Burqa should have been more responsible.

[dubyagottogo]

56. This is the problem.....

You compare a woman in Afghanistan living under maniacal Islamic law to someone living in this country. If that happened in this country the Taliban would be put in jail and his rights would be removed. But I gues you would have a problem with that....

[ProdigalJunkMail]

59. well, some people consider some of our laws maniacal

especially the drug related ones...I cannot draw an equivalence to the execution for dress code violations...but some of our drug related offenses ARE a little tight...

theProdigal

[DrWeird]

70. Injustice is injustice.

Shooting a woman for a dress code violation is unjust.

Locking up a black person for twenty years for possesion of marijuana is unjust.

"But I gues you would have a problem with that...."

You seem awfully confused. You're the one supporting ridiculously unjust punishments.

Using your logic, if a woman not wearing a burka were a capital offense in this country then you'd be supporting it.

"Personal responsibility" and all that.

"Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time."

"Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve."

And all those other illogical, meaningless RW soundbites you're so fond of.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

50. unfortunately yes...

actually...a dime bag might just be a misdemeanor charge so isn't applicable here.

I think that a person should be able to smoke as much weed/crack/crank/hashish as they want provided they do not do anything like driving while under the influence. Unfortunately, our government at this time does not agree with my position. I might like to light one up...but I realize that I could be caught in that process and face charges.

theProdigal

[dubyagottogo]

52. Sounds like a choice.....

[DrWeird]

69. Really, PJM, I'm disappointed.

You realize that the drug laws are unjust but you support unjust punishment for breaking these laws?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

71. sorry to disappoint...

truly I am...but unless we are willing to classify drug crimes (usage and possession) differently then I think a felony is a felony. Do I like it? No, most drug offenses should not be felonies in my eyes...but currently they are. I don't like the system...I would like it changed. I can vote my conscience toward making that happen. But until something does change, the matter of punishing a felony as a felony should remain.

I think you and I are probably more on the same page than you think. But it is what it is...for now.

theProdigal

[Forkboy]

44. What a thread

crikey

[Masterdebate]

57. That is

because 14 percent of them were or are in prison..

[Forkboy]

58. ah,threads like this just bring them out

[buddhamama]

84. uh-huh

the DebateMaster appears short on words. He's fully capable though, of pointing out the obvious. Don't know what i would have done without his critical insight.

I'll add one of my own

Voting is a Constitutional Right!

Heya :hi:

[dubyagottogo]

61. My last comment...

Live a good life and you will be able to vote until you are dead. Then someone else will vote for you......

[TroubleMan]

77. Every single person in USA has done something that can be considered a

felony if they're over 25. Trust me, you've committed a felony and you probably didn't even know it. They are so many laws on the books, it just a matter of selective enforcement.

Murder, rape, and child molestation aside, just because a person is a felon doesn't make them a bad person...it just means they made a mistake, they were targeted by law enforcement because of discrimination, or were in the wrong place at the wrong time. A lot of felons are bad people...I know, I'm a convicted felon myself and have been in the system. However, the large majority of people in jail are there because of addiction, poverty, or they made a stupid mistake.

YOU CAN BE GIVEN A FELONY CONVICTION FOR BEING IN A PROTEST. It's called disorderly conduct, failure to obey a police officer, ect. You think that you should lose your right to vote over that?

That's ridiculous....every American citizen should vote...and if they can't, then they shouldn't have to pay taxes. Our forefathers rebelled against England because of NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

62. Funny how southern states have the most restrictive laws.

Racism? Naaaahhhhh.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

63. wrong...many states have these laws...look at RI

http://www.ncsl.org/programs/legman/elect/voterights.htm

theProdigal

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

65. Not wrong. The most restrictive laws are in the south.

Prisoners permitted to vote:
ME, VT

Voting restored after release from prison:
HI, ID, IL, IN, LA, MA, MI, MT, NH, ND, OH, OR, PA, SD, UT

Voting restored after release from prison and completion of parole (probationers may vote):
CA, CO, CT, NY

Voting restored after completion of sentence, including parole and probation:
AK, AR, GA, KS, MN, MO, NE, NJ, NM, NC, OK, RI, SC, TX, WV, WI

Voting restored after completion of sentence for first felony, permanently disenfranchised for at least some second felonies:
AZ, MD

Voting restored for certain ex-offenders convicted of felonies, others permanently disenfranchised:
AL, DE, NV, WY

Voting restored after completion of sentence, except those convicted of felonies before a certain date who are permanently disenfranchised:
TN (pre-1986 disenfranchised), WA (pre-1984 disenfranchised)

All convicted of felonies permanently disenfranchised:
FL, IA, KY, MS, VA

[ProdigalJunkMail]

73. hmmm...

Voting restored after completion of sentence, including parole and probation:
AK, AR, GA, KS, MN, MO, NE, NJ, NM, NC, OK, RI, SC, TX, WV, WI


KS...not the south
MN...not the south
MO...not the south
NE...not the south
NJ...not the south
NM...not the south
OK...could go either way
RI...not the south
WI...not the south

9/16 not in the south for harsh punishment

Voting restored after completion of sentence for first felony, permanently disenfranchised for at least some second felonies:
AZ, MD

Neither state is in the South

Voting restored for certain ex-offenders convicted of felonies, others permanently disenfranchised:
AL, DE, NV, WY

Only one of these looks southern

Voting restored after completion of sentence, except those convicted of felonies before a certain date who are permanently disenfranchised:
TN (pre-1986 disenfranchised), WA (pre-1984 disenfranchised)

50-50 on that one

All convicted of felonies permanently disenfranchised:
FL, IA, KY, MS, VA

This one you win on.

Not so overwhelming as you make it seem...

theProdigal

[Zynx]

74. You have to have the right to vote in order to be a citizen.

However, I guess the South doesn't get that.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

76. right you are...

rights of citizen ship (at least certain aspects of it) are forfeited upon conviction of certain crimes. The South does get that...as does the rest of the country. You commit a crime worthy of felony status, your rights of citizenship are at least partially revoked (as in, you get hauled to jail and other punishments).

States in the South (for the most part) require that you serve your ENTIRE SENTENCE (parole and probation as well) before you regain your right to vote...but you know, if you'll just look over that little list, a lot of those states are in the North too...and lets not forget California and other western states...

theProdigal

[rinsd]

66. Questions...

The way this is worded is that felons don't have the right to vote while incaracerated on parole or probation, is that correct?

Does this mean permanent suspension of voter rights or can they re-apply after serving debt to society?

If they can reapply, I don't see a problem with it. If it's permanent, I am against it.

[JCMach1]

80. 1/5 IN FLORIDA

:(

[buddhamama]

82. racist policies just keep giving and giving

first, find the areas African Americans are most vulnerable, and the manner they're most likely to commit crimes

second, we'll target, and discriminate against, African Americans with racial profiling and the like

third, we'll throw their asses in jail

and then, once we have `em all penned in we'll take away their right to vote.