Support your military argument help

[aePrime]

Why, oh, why are my friends always conservative? Oh, maybe it's because I live in Idaho. Anyway, we have a web site with a forum, and there's one guy who's as right as can be. I told him that if he was so pro-war, why didn't he sign up? Another of my conservative friends posted this, and hasn't liked my answers so far. Anybody have a take on this?

I think this argument made by liberals is ridiculous, and no one needs to serve in the military just to support military action. Otherwise, you shouldn't be able to call the fire department and send firemen into a burning building, risking their lives, unless if you have served has a firefighter or are willing to lead them into the building yourself. Likewise, don't call the cops if you hear breaking glass at 3 am unless if you are willing to help them wrestle down the bad guy. And I don't even want to hear about the Bush administration's environmental policies from anyone consuming fossil fuels in any manner or anyone producing any non-recyclable/ non-compostable trash.

I mean, we wouldn't want to be very hypocritical, would we?

[bahrbearian]

1. Then don't start Arson fires.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

2. simple

its illegal to call the fire department to report a fire when there is none.

Jesus H Christ. most of these neanderthal freepers are beyond conversion. Don't you get it, logic doesn't work with them, if it did they wouldn't be neanderthalic Jerry's kids.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. My reply would be::

I agree that one doesn't have to be in the military to support military action. But I think you will agree that if a person, or a government, has supported military action, they should walk their talk and support the military. How come Bush has not? He and the Republicans in Congress slashed funding to disabled veterans in the first big appropriations bill for the war (check out the DAV about this, don't take my word for it). He slashed funding for schools for military dependents, has cut combat pay, and has allowed Guard and Reserve units to go into combat without enough body armor, and, recently, has deployed a NY reserve unit without giving them any weapons at all. As a patriotic American, I'm sure you have donated money to your local Guard unit so that when they go to Iraq, they will be able to purchase the equipment to keep them safe. I know that I have. My only question is why Bush and Republicans have not supported the troops.

[aePrime]

4. Actually, I do agree with you

on the point that you don't have to be in the military to support the military. The guy who started all of this though is literally doing nothing. He got booted from the university because he didn't make grades. On the other hand, the guy who picked up the debate is now a masters student at Duke. It annoys me so; he's brilliant, and yet Republican.

Edit: by the way, thanks!

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

5. And how does the Duke grad student

defend Bush's disgraceful treatment of the military? I'd be interested in his answer, as would a few vets I know.

[aePrime]

6. Here was his response

(He even included a pretty graph of veteran population declining)

I totally agree, I wish we could give all of our servicemen and servicewomen a Mercedes and beach house upon their return, but I don't know if that would get through appropriations either. I had trouble finding the numbers you talked about. However, it appears that the number of vets are declining, which might justify reducing spending.

There is also a table at the bottom of this page
http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2005/va.html

A couple of key lines:

DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS
(In millions of dollars)

Actual Estimate
2001 2003 2004 2005
Spending
Discretionary Budget Authority:
Medical Programs 20,846 24,668 27,364 27,822
Total, Discretionary outlays 22,366 25,678 28,380 28,585
Total, Mandatory outlays 22,684 31,209 31,903 38,729
Total, Outlays 45,050 56,887 60,283 67,314

Or, we could take their word for it. Maybe we should look for polls among active military and veterans. The only one I have found is this one from Sept. 12 that has Bush 58% Kerry 35% among vets.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/Veterans%20Vote.htm

[ismnotwasm]

9. If those numbers mean the dying off WWII vets

Then cutting funding is even more bullshit. Those guys are old, many are sick, and require expensive care. I hate numbers that don't tell the whole story! Not to mention after this war, we are going to have many injured and damaged vets, I don't want them to wait years to get the care they need! How many years did it take for the government to acknowledge the damage from agent orange? In fact only fairly recently, the VA has provided diabetes care to Vets with agent orange exposure.
Soldiers are trained to know they might go into combat, and they might die, or worse (there is worse that death as far as I'm concerned)But that doesn't excuse the sloppy thinking of most right wingers "you don't have to join the military to support the military" well no, but are you of age to do so? Would you be willing if your country needed you? Would you go blind, not caring about why or who or when we are fighting? Would you not question? What exactly ARE you doing to support the troops anyway? These people make me sick

[Bandit]

7. Maybe not necessary but it deffinitely gives one a deeper insight

into what it takes from a military point of view. It is becomming more obvious as each day goes by that those in charge now who have ZERO military experience don't really know what is going on and what it truly takes to complete a mission. Kind of like a person can be a teacher with no education at all but an educated person makes a much better teacher.

[Sleeper]

8. I love..

Armchair Commandos... When you call these warmongering fools to task they usually shut up.

[BlackVelvetElvis]

10. Then why was "not serving" such a big issue to the R's when Clinton ran?

It can't be had both ways.

[RapidCreek]

11. Real easy...Kerry gave you your answer last night.

Your friend has confused a pointless war with the unfortunate people forced to go and fight it. One is not the other.

He has equated being pro-war with supporting the military. Is your friend pro-fires and pro-crime? Using his argument it stands to reason that he must be if he supports firemen and police officers.

And yes I would suggest since your friend believes setting fires and committing crimes is supportive of those serving in the fire department and the police that perhaps he should join one or both and demonstrate his rather warped logic with his own life and limb.

I'd go into his tangential argument regarding fossil fuels and trash but I suspect what I've said thus far will keep him busy enough.

Your Friend is a bully and a coward who attempts to hide is true nature under a cloak of self serving foolishness and indignation.

RC
USNvet

[HarveyBriggs]

12. Here you go ...

The attitude expressed by the writer is typical of the cowardice expressed by today's conservative.

Today, a conservative is much more likely to support a war than to fight in it. And we see that attitude expressed in their support of their cowardly leaders-- George W. Bush who used family ties to avoid combat, Dick Cheney who had "better things to do." Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity, George Wil -- the legions of Republican opinon leaders are rank with those whose cowardly disinclinations to serve in combat are their most distinguishing feature. Today's Republican worships at the altar of yellow-bellied chicken hawk.

Indeed, as more cowardice is exposed within the ranks of Republicans, we see support rise. This appears counterintuitive until we realize the basic Republican is a coward to the core. They admire most the values of a coward.

The Republican also loathes bravery, and we have seen this in their habit of disgracing decorated combat heroes like John Kerry and Max Cleland. We've seen the band-aids that mock a soldier's Purple Heart. Brave Democrat soldiers returning from combat in Iraq are routinely labled "traitors" by Republicans simply because these soldiers have seen the truth of Iraq first hand and it disagrees with the Republican's self-isolated fantasy view of the world.

We look at the freedom-reducing aspects of the Patriot Act and how it is fervently supported by Republicans, and we see how Republicans are eager to give away freedoms they have little stake in securing. Of course, they want to give away freedoms -- they have demonstrated that they are not willing to fight for them. That is the nature of their cowardice.

We see in the Republican an individual who is too cheap to pay for the war, too irresponsible to admit their errors, and too yellow to fight. In essence the Republican wants to enjoy freedom without sacrifice. The Republican is a parasite, a freeloader, a mooch -- the ultimate welfare queen riding on the efforts of those who fight for freedom.

Our nation is founded on the idea that the citizen soldier is the best weapon against tyranny. And in failing their duty to fight for freedom the Republican fails as a citizen.

Let us all thank God that the last time this nation faced a true threat from the likes of Hitler, Mussolini and Tojo, that our nation was led by a Democrat and Democrats answered the call to duty to keep this nation free.

If we had to rely on Republican cowardice to defend us, we would all be part of a 1,000 year Reich.

Rationalize away, little Republican parasites. If hiding behind your lies or under your beds gives you comfort, so be it.

Harvey Briggs

[RapidCreek]

13. Wow...I tried to keep it simple.....but you nailed it in a most eloquent

fashion my friend....I was curious....can I submit your words to my local paper? It is a fascist publication....directed at an innocently ignorant audience. I believe your words might turn up the lights a little for them....if, that is, if the editor will publish them.

This is some of the finest writing I've seen on this board....bar none.

Of course I would give you the credit for your fine piece.

RC

[HarveyBriggs]

14. You may use it as your own.

Your kind words and willingness to spread the word are consideration enough.

Harvey Briggs

[RapidCreek]

15. Thanks Harvey

RC

[aePrime]

16. Thanks

Wow, thanks for the responses, everybody. I should be able to do this fight on my own, but I've never been a good debater.

I'm not sure how my friend will take to the calling of Republicans cowards, even though I feel the same way. I will not, however, take credit for your words.