Salvation Army bells fall silent outside Target

[Newsjock]

http://www.fresnobee.com/local/story/9432241p-10341016c.html

By Donald E. Coleman / The Fresno Bee

The Salvation Army in Fresno is searching for a way to replace nearly 30% of its annual donations after a decision by Target Corp. to ban bell ringers and red kettles from its stores across the nation.

... Last year, about 10% of the $93million that went into the red kettles across the country came from Target stores, said Capt. Bob Lloyd of the Golden State Division, which includes the area from San Francisco to Bakersfield. About 33 million people were helped through the contributions.

... Minneapolis-based Target says it no longer can make an exception to its "no solicitation policy."

... Paula Thornton-Greear, a Target spokeswoman, said the decision applies to all solicitors including those with petitions and those seeking to register voters.

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Good. The Salvation Army can take their anti-gay crud elsewhere, and progressive folks who were reluctantly sticking with Wal-Mart for purely economic reasons can now head across the street (quite literally, in many cases) to Target.

[Walt Starr]

1. Bummer

I've enjoyed stuffing notes into the kettles telling them precisely why it wasn't a $5 bill.

:(

[Atlant]

18. Here in NH, you can still find them at our local liquor stores. (NT)

[Kipepeo]

49. Like this one? :)

http://www.edifyingspectacle.org/weblog/archives/love_and_lust/three_dollar_bill.php

I'm in agreement with most others on the thread. I give to Goodwill and Toys for Tots. There are other places you can donate, without supporting discrimination.

[kwyjibo]

2. What?

People can now go to Target instead of Wal-Mart because there will be no bell ringers?

And helping 33 million people through contributions isn't that important because Salvation Army is anti-gay? They're still going to be anti-gay without the money, but 33 million people will be worse off. That's good?

[Thtwudbeme]

3. Maybe those 33 million people

will figure out where to vote in 2008.

yes, I know that sounds cold...and it is cold of me to say that---but, I am so damned sick of the anti-gay anything that I feel kind of mean now.

[dr.strangelove]

9. I have to disagree

My wife was Director of Development for the one of the Salvation Army's largest divisions (country/geographic region - I won't identify which one, if you want to dear, go ahead). Anyway, after raising over $4 million for this group, she abandoned the job after the SA told United Way it would sever their relationship b/c United Way publicly supported the gay boy scout leader in NJ a few years ago. United Way pulled their public support and the SA/UW relationship continued. We could not take this crap, so my wife quit and has raised over $10 million for another NPO since then.

Although she quit the SA, we continue to put money in the kettles. We have seen first hand what that money does. SA, at least that division, had one of the lowest administrative costs of any NPO in the US. They were using less than 15% of general donations for admin costs. This means over 85% of the cash in the kettles goes directly to people in need. The SA does not discriminate who they give to. Their food kitchens, homeless shelters, adult day care, children's services and education clinics do not inquire about sexual orientation, religion or anything else. They just help millions of people. I have seen the day camps that urban kids visit during the summer, giving thousands of city poor children a chance to see lakes, fishing and contact with nature. Their adult day care gives people who can not leave their homes transportation and much needed contact with others. The food kitchens and homeless shelters save thousands of lives every year, and are more important in the winter. They also give out warm wool blankets and water proof tarps to those that don't fit in the shelters to give them a chance on the streets in the winters. They house abused woman and children to give them a chance. They give addicts needing a place to detox beds and medical support. They teach adults to read and give poor kids free after school help. There are too many positives the SA does to list.

All in all, I agree that I hate the SA policy. But I won;t take that out on those that need those services. I also think you are wrong if you are implying that the homeless and inner city poor voted in droves for bush. I think I am accurate in saying the homeless don't vote in large part and inner city poor citizens voted overwhelmingly for Kerry.

When my wife quit, her boss and her discussed the SA's policy of hate toward gays. Her boss told her "we hate the sin, not the sinner." That kind of bullshit makes me sick. However, I turn it around in this case. I hate the SA, but not the people they help. In many urban areas, they are the only game in town that can provide his support. In areas where there are other "big players" that provide these services, I would encourage you to donate with your heart and head. In those areas where no one else will provide these services, I ignore my head (which tells me to forget these hateful assholes) and go my heart and make the donation.

[mondo joe]

27. It's your money - but there are other, non discriminatory, causes

I wouldn't try to tell you what to do with your charitable giving.

But I will suggest that there are other good causes who help the same clientele, but without the anti gay policies.

[grasswire]

37. thank you for pointing out the good...

...that The Salvation Army does. It's a crisis of conscience for many of us to have to decide whether their ability to deliver critical care so efficiently trumps certain of their policies.

I hope you can debunk the widely held myth that SA requires people getting aid to sit through religious services. I know it's not true, but many DU-ers still believe it.

[nikraye]

38. "ability to deliver critical care so efficiently " NOT IN NYC...

SEE POSTING #30 below.

[HuskerDem]

40. Well actually, yes, in NYC............ see post #39 below

[nikraye]

42. Attempting to influence legislation through extortion

IS INDEFENSIBLE and IMMORAL.

They're hypocrites, regardless of whatever "data" you present.

[HuskerDem]

53. Didn't mean to get your knickers in a bunch kiddo

Because I agree with you about the lobby issue and the individual or subset who proposed it. I just don't think we need to make things up. You said that the NYC SA charity was not efficient or effective. Hypocrisy, extortion and the immoral actions of whatever person or subset made this proposal are all good items to argue about, however the charities effectiveness seems to be in very good standing.

See, we can bounce up and down like a bunch of mad buggers or we can access the situation like rational adults and effect change in the most thoughtful way possible. If that means not giving to SA because of their gay policy then so be it but spreading disinformation is not helpful, it just makes us look like illogical crackpots.

The real problem here is that we need a gay-friendly non discriminatory NPO alternative to give to that can operate on the same massive scale as the SA. Sometimes they are the only game in town for many services.

[dr.strangelove]

44. I know the crisis well

It was difficult for my wife to take a pay cut to leave her job at SA, but it was somethign we had to do.

However, the SA division she ran development for did NOT require any of their consumers to partake in any religious activity. The soup kitchen offers daily services, but it is before dinner and not required. No one who goes to the service gets any more food, and if you don't go to the service, you still get to eat. The same is true for the women's shelter. In fact, a pregnant women at the battered woman's shelter was given a ride to Planned Parenthood for an abortion by a staffer. I know SA would not approve, but it happens.

[kimchi]

4. Salvation Army isn't the only charitable organization in the world.

I'd prefer people give their money willingly instead of being guilted into it by a bell ringer.

Good works mean nothing if they come with strings. They can be as anti-gay as they wish; they aren't getting money from me.

[noonwitch]

5. I agree-the Salvation Army does some really good things

I have yet to hear of any instance of actual discrimination toward gays by them. I have heard that they believe homosexuality is wrong.

The SA in Detroit runs a drug treatment center, a homeless shelter, a shelter for children who are being placed in emergency foster care and a Booth program for pregnant teens whose parents have kicked them out. Their drug treatment program (Harbor Light) is the only program that I know of that will take uninsured addicts and will take people who have been through rehab programs several times previously. Their unwillingness to give up on addicts is admirable.

They recently built a very nice shelter for homeless families not far from my house, in Warren.

Of course, everyone is free to support whatever charity they want, but the Salvation Army has a proven track record of being able to help the people who most need it. The shelter for kids in Detroit is a place that the kids usually have fond memories of-they are treated with kindness and love.

[arwalden]

8. They get NO FREE PASSES from me just because of other "good" works!

I'm reminded of the line from Monty Python's "Life Of Brian":

All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?

[chicagiana]

16. you didn't get the joke ...

The point was that the conquerers they bitched about so heavily had actually advanced Hebrew society!!! The irony is that they were VERY willing to take the spoils of imperial rule while HATING the occupiers who did little to interfere besides collecting taxes to PAY for those social amenities!!!

The same argument could be made in Iraq!!!

All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what has Saddam Hussein ever done for us?

All right, despite the shattered infrastructure, countless dead, non-existent security, daily attacks, rampant unemployment, isn't it all worth Saddam Hussein being gone????

[arwalden]

21. I Didn't Get The Joke?? Really?!

You misunderestimate me.

~Allen

PS: welcome to DU!

[chicagiana]

25. You mean the Romans are the Democrats ????

Thats the only way the analogy works because the things the Romans brought to Israel are the SAME things that Democrats have brought to this nation!!!

[arwalden]

28. No. That is incorrect.

My response was to someone who appeared to be willing to give the SALVATION ARMY a free pass on this one "minor" thing regarding their position in opposition to gays and their discrimination against queers in need of their services and in their employment practices.

This reminded me of the Monty Python scene that I mentioned earlier. I wasn't making an analogy to anyone or anything. I was *reminded* of a humorous scene in a movie.

Where exactly did I make an 'analogy' to Democrats? If there is any 'analogy' to Democrats to be found, it was unintentional.

Are you confusing my post with someone else's? Did I respond to the wrong poster?

[HuskerDem]

31. Arwalden - I am unaware of any gay person in need who has been

denied services by the SA. Could you provide an example? I was under the impression that the SA was non-discriminatory in their assistance practices and gave help based on need regardless of religion, race, orientation, etc.

[nikraye]

32. See posting #30, below (eom)

[arwalden]

34. I Don't Have The Links...

but there was much made of this when "obviously" gay homeless folks (runaways?) as well as indigent people who had AIDS were denied meals and shelter services. It was covered by gay press sources like the Washington Blade and Advocate.

[HuskerDem]

47. Well then, a pox on them for that

I really wish that there were much more regulation on all NPO's. Discrimination of any kind in giving should be strictly prohibited by any charity recieving so much as a PENNY from public funds. Violations should be fined and tax status placed on probationary status.

[mondo joe]

22. Didn't the KKK want to adopt a stretch of road?

If you do some good and some bad only the good counts?

If you had a dinner and got food poisoning from only the chicken would you say on the whole it was a good meal?

[noonwitch]

29. The Salvation Army and the KKK are not a fair comparison

The KKK is a racist group who has a history of perpetrating violence against innocents. They are terrorists and traitors.

The Salvation Army thinks homosexuality is wrong, and they are up front about their beliefs. I disagree with them on that issue, but also support the first amendment. They are otherwise a group who feed the poor, shelter the homeless, treat the drug addicts, etc. They have been doing this for over a century. They have never been violent, and to my knowledge, they have never turned someone away who needed help because that person was gay. They have never hung someone from a tree because he was black, nor have they hung any gays from trees for being gay.

To compare them in that manner is just so wrong. I understand not wanting to give them money if you are gay or have a problem with their non-approval of homosexuality, but they are not genocidal monsters (which the KKK are) because they think homosexuality is wrong. Target has the right not to have them at their stores. I have the right to give them money for the good things that they do.

Comparing social programs run by evangelicals to the Klan is not going to help liberal causes very much.

[mondo joe]

33. So how much good would the KKK have to do to make it fair?

So anti gay policies make them worthwhile because they're not actually killing gays.

So what's the balance? At what point is enough harm done to outweight the good?

Or how much good will buy them a pass on the bad?

[arwalden]

52. Thanks Mondo Joe... Your Questions Are Dead-On Target!!

The Salvation Army is "up-front" about how they feel about gays. The KKK is also "up-front" in their beliefs about Blacks and Jews.

As long as they're UP FRONT about it, then it's a-okay, right? Hey... we can't fault them for it, because they don't try to hide it, eh?

Astounding!

[nikraye]

35. But they're willing to sacrifice help to tens of thousands...

...of NYC's homeless and poor unless the city meets their anti-Gay demand.

Police have a name for that sort of strong-armed tactic:

Extortion

[DrWeird]

43. Oh, well if they're up front about their beliefs...

Hey, the KKK think black people are wrong, but they certainly aren't up front about their beliefs.

:eyes:

[Toucano]

13. Yes, it's good.

The Salvation Army is a corrupt, regressive cult. The "good" they do is accidental.

[JerseygirlCT]

15. There are plenty of other worthy charities

helping those same people -- charities which don't discriminate.

[Walt Starr]

23. So now you're telling us what organizations we HAVE to donate to?

Sorry, the Salvation Army is one fucked up organization that I sincerely hopes goes under and never ever exists again.

Fuck 'em.

[kwyjibo]

48. again, What?

where did I say that you MUST donate to the Salvation Army? None of you donate to Salvation Army already but they still made enough money to help those 33 million people. Keep giving to other charities, I don't care what you do. I just think it's unfortunate that less people will be helped this year, regardless of SA's politics. It's the PEOPLE I'm worried about.

[Walt Starr]

55. I donated to the SA until they outted themselves as homophobic bigots

Gave ti up after that.

[TankLV]

24. Umm - YES actually! It IS a GOOD thing that they are banned.

And I hope in some small way, I contributed to this.

And, in case you hadn't noticed, the MAJOR part of their donations goes to support their overhead costs and only a small trickle goes to actually helping those they CLAIM to help.

Actually, I'm OVERJOYED at the news!

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

[HuskerDem]

39. Your statement appears to be blatantly wrong.

There's plenty of argument to be had without inventing things. As a charity they appear to be very efficient.

From the Better Business Bearau:
Financial

The following financial information is based on Salvation Army of Greater New York's audited financial statements and/or IRS Form 990 for fiscal year ended: 9/30/2002

Support & Revenue ($) Amount % of Total Support & Revenue
Public Support
Contributions 73,943,636.00 47.60
Indirect Support/Federated Giving 1,992,437.00 1.28
In-Kind Gifts/Donated Services 0.00 0
Special Events 233,446.00 0.15
Government Support (non-contract) 334,000.00 0.22
Total Public Support 76,503,519.00 49.25
Program Revenue 77,713,770.00 50.03
Interest & Other Revenue 5,552,133.00 3.57
Unrealized Gains/(Losses) -4,423,299.00 -2.85
TOTAL SUPPORT AND REVENUE 155,346,123.00 100%

Expenses ($) Amount % of Total Expenses
Program Services 137,551,907.00 92.52%
Management & General 8,668,532.00 5.83%
*Fundraising 2,455,088.00 1.65%
TOTAL EXPENSES 148,675,527.00 100%
Excess (deficit) of total support and revenue over expenses 6,670,596.00
*Fundraising expenses were equal to 3.21% of related contributions, i.e. total public support.

Assets, Liabilities, and Fund Balances: ($) Amount
Assets: 6,670,596.00
Liabilities: 17,862,255.00
Net Asset Balance: 215,435,147.00
Previous Year Net Asset Balance: 208,764,638.00

These numbers are for the greater New York area but I hardly believe they could be too much different from the organization in general.

[dr.strangelove]

45. Don't have the numbers here, but go to any other division web site

The annual reports will give you the numbers. I think NY is VERY WELL OFF. I know many other areas don;t get this level of support.

[mmonk]

6. Can't they receive tax dollars?

The faith based iniative is supposed to replace government programs with religious organizations.

[arwalden]

7. Good!! Screw The BIGOTED "Salvation" Army!!

Another shining example of how "faith-based" charities work for all, eh?

[MadHound]

10. I'll start crying for the Salvation Army,

When I start seeing genuine high dollar antiques and collectibles for sale out in the front part of their thrift stores, rather than walking out the back with the "volunteers".

[Toucano]

14. Bing FUCKING go!

Thank you for corroborating my experience!

[B3Nut]

26. Vintage hi-fi gear

A captain in Michigan had siphoned off all the classic tube and solid-state audio gear that had been donated...he had McIntosh, Fisher, HH Scott, a roomful of killer vintage gear. He was a collector, and siphoned off whatever he wanted. Kinda puts those of us who collect vintage stereo and haunt thrifts for pieces to add to our collections at a disadvantage. Goodwills are bad for this too...there were volunteers at one GW here in Madison that were grabbing the good stuff, selling it on eBay, and pocketing the $$.

At least if you're going to skim the cream off the top, have the decency to make a fair donation in exchange for it...sheesh. And the pricing at the Goodwills is all over the place...

Todd in Madtown

[Logansquare]

50. Yes, I have a friend who is an art dealer, and he confirms this practice

Most of the weekday volunteers are people in the trade, and they take all of the good stuff and resell it at higher prices.

[hnsez]

11. 1 Hetero male Buying a pack of rainbow stickers to slap on their kettle

[Toucano]

12. Good for Target.

If you have a policy, there should be no exceptions without good reason.

"We want money" isn't a good reason.

[LiberalFighter]

17. Will never donate to any religous organization no matter the "goodness" of

their works. That IS in my opinion for their members to fund not the general public. That also applies to any religious organization that utilizes United Way. I will contribute to UW but will specify where it will go.

[mondo joe]

19. Good for Target. Everything changed after 11/03.

I don't need anti gay religious zealots begging me for money to discriminate with.

[dsc]

20. It literally breaks my heart to walk past those kettles

as I know how well run most local Salvation Armies are. But I simply find another charity to which to give.

[nikraye]

30. SA Cares more about discriminating than helping the poor

For those of you unfamiliar with the dirty politics of the Salvation Army, here are two examples of the despicable lengths this so called "charity" will go to, just to legalize their homophobia:

From 2001:

Rove Heard Charity Plea On Gay Bias
White House Denied Senior Aides Had Role

By Mike Allen and Dana Milbank
Washington Post Staff Writers
Thursday, July 12, 2001; Page A01

Karl Rove, President Bush's senior adviser, was the Salvation Army's first White House contact in its effort to win approval of a regulation allowing religious charities to practice anti-gay workplace bias, administration officials said yesterday.

<snip>
An internal Salvation Army document obtained by The Washington Post said the White House had made a "firm commitment" to issue a regulation protecting religious charities from state and city efforts to prevent discrimination against gays in hiring and providing benefits. To secure this commitment, the charity proposed spending nearly $1 million on lobbyists and strategists, and those it retained included a key player in the Bush presidential campaign and one of the campaign's top fundraisers.

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A MILLION DOLLARS spent to buy them the right to discriminate; yet the International Home Page of The Salvation Army states the Army's mission is "to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ and to meet human needs in His name without discrimination."

How many hungry poor might have been fed, or homeless might have been clothed or sheltered with that MILLION DOLLARS?


and, wait, there's more!

From May, 2004:

Salvation Army Uses Homeless To Fight Gay Benefits
by Doug Windsor
365Gay.com Newscenter
New York Bureau

Posted: May 24, 2004 12:01 a.m. ET

(New York City) The Salvation Army is threatening to close soup kitchens for tens of thousands of New York's homeless and walk away from other projects if the city enacts legislation requiring firms that do business with New York to offer health benefits to the partners of gay staffers.

The evangelical faith is prepared to give up the $70 million a year in city funding it receives and pull out of New York entirely the New York Post reports.

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So, the SA is THREATENING the city of NY with leaving tens of thousands of people cold and hungry if certain legislation is passed? Threatening to turn away $70 MILLION in city funding that would help the needy just to avoid having to pay a relatively paltry amount in health benefits to their gay employees, whose numbers are undoubtedly small or next to nothing.

I for one won't be tossing my hard-earned cash into an SA pot this holiday season. There are plenty of other TRUE charities to give to. In fact, upon seeing one of their homophobic, hypocritical bell ringers, I'm inclined to stand beside him/her and hand out TRUTH FLYERS to anyone even THINKING about making a donation.

[Cleita]

36. We had a bomb scare at our local Walmart yesterday here in

Arroyo Grande, California. It turned out to be a crank call. It looks like the holiday season is starting out on an ominous note.

[UdoKier]

41. Fine with me. I don't do religious charities.

nt

[grasswire]

46. while we're at it....

...the St. Vincent de Paul charities discriminate against unmarried heterosexuals living together, too. They refuse food boxes and other help.

[Logansquare]

51. Let's start the Gaynation Army

The money collected will go to ALL of the needy, not just those who can pass through the narrow gates of Salvation Army's "heaven."

[Javaman]

54. Tell them to do it in front of wal-mart, they care so much, NOT!

Once upon a time I supported the Salvation Army, but then a did a little reading into their policy. They are very anti-gay and anti-civil rights. Target, having an owner that is also a supporter of the Democratic party, also realized this and booted these people off his front stoop when they refused to change their policy. So instead of whining about it, he used the law, no solicitations period.

[SnowBack]

56. They actively worked against Gay rights in Canada and N.Z.

When we were working to get GLBT rights in Canada, the Salvation Army actively worked against us. They had done the same thing in New Zealand.

So when people give money to them to "help" people, they are using some of it to work AGAINST Gay people.

:mad: