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Remember Kerry's NON-answer to the '$87 bil flip-flop'?

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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 01:49 PM
Original message
Remember Kerry's NON-answer to the '$87 bil flip-flop'?
during the campaign? Or his non-response to the Swift Boat Liars?

When I said the Kerry camp needs to get it's shit in gear, the optimists would say "Oh, don't worry, he's got a trump card up his sleeve for the last minute,"

When I criticized him and asked EVERYONE to email the campaign and INSIST that he PROPERLY answer the $87 bil. flip-flop charges, the optimists said "don't worry, he's waiting for the second/third debate to hit it out of the park."

I could have answered that stupid question effectively, and I was never district attorney for the City of Boston or a US Senator.

Now the eternal optimists say he is secretly working to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat in Ohio. LOL!

I've resigned myself to the fact that Kerry was a setup and he never really wanted to win.

So when are we going to stop letting democrats sabotage the democratic party?

I know this is not an original idea. Just my two cents...
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Democat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
1. Don't worry about it because, "Kerry is a strong closer!"
:evilgrin:
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. And "He's electible!"
Looks like those magic spells didn't work.
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Cat Atomic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #1
15. lmao- we're still hearing that one. "He's working behind the scenes!"
Hope springs eternal.
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Leilani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #15
63. I heard the work is being done
under the table!
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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
31. "strong closer", "electable"
and a dozen other false reasons people were talked into backing Kerry over other candidates that would have had a superior election performance.
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MNBiker Donating Member (107 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #31
67. I still say Dick Gephardt could have won in a walk
The problem was, as I see it Sharpton, Mosley Braun, Graham and others in the primary debates....Gephardt takes MO and Ohio easily...
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
66. But he actually was a strong closer and was electable. He came within
130,000 votes and got more people to the polls than any other Dem candidate in history. He won all three debates. I'm not terribly happy that he conceded so soon, but go back and look at the pics of his rallies prior to the election.

Go back and watch the debates.
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AndyP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
2. While I agree with your charges
that Kerry didn't do enough to combat the charges brought against him. He could have killed Bush, in my opinion, had he hit back harder. However I don't think that he did this on purpose and wanted to crippled the democratic party.

Maybe we were too eager to jump on the bandwagon back in the primaries. We were so united against Bush that we didn't care who we elected.

I guess my tinfoil hat just isn't as big as others- I like to believe that something like that wouldn't happen, that the people that are in power wouldn't waste hundreds of millions in a non-effort to help the country.
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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. I'm not necessarily sure it was intentional.
Maybe he was complacent and just wanted to windsurf. Beats me. He showed no fire, no hunger - IE he didn't REALLY want it.

Clinton did much to sabotage this party too, and I'm still conflicted on whether or not it was intentional.

But his horrible trade agreements, his welfare deform, and his idiotic romp with Lewinsky ultimately left us in worse shape as a party, in spite of his otherwise supremely competent job as president.

I can deal with attacks by republican slime, but the endless dismantling of the party by the likes of Lieberman, Daschle, the Clintons, etc. is extremely disturbing.
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cloudythescribbler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #8
61. don't be so unsure about Clinton, UdoKier
Just as when the Republicans stole the 2000 election (which was insufficiently thrown for reasons to explain another time) there were choruses of protestation about "SoreLoserman", so there are those who say now it's a matter of "tinfoil hats" and "whiny Democrats" etc etc. They are cheerleaders for the party lying. The notion that the system is a machine is something treated as outre BY THE MACHINE AND DRUMMED INTO PEOPLE FROM INFANCY. Just as people watch about 20,000 murders on TV before the age of 18, so they are similarly 'ideologicially toilet trained' not to seriously question the system, and I am talking about serious specific analysis, not horses*** (or what I call PHAWYSI -- Privileged Horses*** Any Way You Slice It) like stuff about the UN conspiring to take over the world or the Vincent Foster "murder". These ideas get lumped together, even by Chomsky, shamefully, with notions that there was a conspiracy behind the assassination of JFK or that the election in Florida was really won by Gore, or that we're really in Iraq (as most Iraqis realize) for geopolitical reasons of necolonialism -- that is that is really IS "the oil, stupid", but not in the simplistic sense set up as a straw man by such profound political observers as Dennis Miller & Co. Well, Chomsky might hedge on the latter two, but anything that probes deeper into the mechanisms of our system -- not as "conspiracy theory" but essentially looking at the mechanisms of what is, at the end of the day, a system of class power -- these things are simply outre. Outre but true. But if you know where your bread is buttered you simply pretend otherwise. Like a good "citizen".

OK about Clinton. The best starting point for understanding Clinton is the poli sci classic by Walter Karp "Indispensable Enemies". Karp, although he has a few (what I consider) major blooper theories in his book, sets out an excellent framework to understand the two party system in the US over the past century -- indeed his is the best, with all its myriad imperfections. He starts from the notion from Robert "they didn't think of it as a tin foil hat in those days" LaFollette, Progressive Wisconsin Senator who ran the strongest third party candidacy since Lincoln: "Machine politics is always bipartisan". He specifically focuses -- with excellent examples in this MUST READING book, such as JFK's education bill -- on how those elected to generate progressive reform, basically Democrats since WWII in the White House, have done the job of defeating and frustrating those very reforms. It's their JOB, just as the job of the media is to justify the lying, and the job of BOTH media and politicians is to insist that such arguments as this are "paranoid" "cynical" etc. And get people at the astroturf roots to believe it, including liberals. They actually do quite a good job, too. And they have oodles of supposed progressives to help do so, because when you control the means of communication, you can control who GETS to be famous aboveground and therefore respected as the 'progressive leaders' etc. at least to some degree.

Back to Clinton. He was pushed as the nominee NOT because he had ANY national grassroots following (I have been a political activist for years and knew only of his long boring speech at the 88 Convention) but because the Republicans couldn't even rig another election to get Bush in -- too unpopular -- so the powers that pee, who are basically anti-progressive, needed to get someone in that they liked, just like in '76, where Carter came out of seemingly the blue with trumpets of media attention and complex boogie woogie. These were figures who would not rock the boat even as much as the (acceptable for the Senate but not the White House) Kennedys. So Bill the Shill came in with an agenda of NAFTA, balancing the budget (a truly great achievement, the FIRST thing the Republicans busted in 2001 before the Jeffords defection), and eviscerating welfare etc. That WAS the Clinton agenda. But those weren't the things that helped Republicans POLITICALLY; they were just what the powers that pee wanted, policywise. (Monicagate -- which really you somewhat misconstrue -- was basically about ISSUE LAUNDERING and about public distraction and entertainment, like the whole business with Clarence Thomas and Anita Hill. My question is, if JFK was banging Marilyn Monroe, couldn't the PRESIDENT do better than THAT? What about Beyonce, or someone else with a little class BEFITTING THE OFFICE!) You must not confuse the policy issues, including issues laundering of ELITE-agenda items, the REAL promises that politicians make, the ones that count, with the political sabotage of reform and of reform politics although they sometimes overlap including considerably.

It is in the area of what Clinton did to (a) frustrate reform or simply not pursue issues effectively and (b) to bring about a Republican Congress, something no Republican president could EVER do without having a "Democrat" establish it for them. Bill the Shill did the latter in the 93-94 period, when I was reading from Karp on call in radio about his systematic frustration of a reform agenda, although I underestimated the extent of the agenda, not seeing the railroading of a Republican Congress, at the time. Indicative was the teeny example of Clinton and the fetal tissue research issue. It generated a demonstration in response of a mere 7-,000 anti-Choice yahoos. So the issue quickly DISAPPEARED. It wasn't what Clinton was looking for. Then there was gays in the military, an issue quickly put through without fuss in other countries, and which could have been easily adjusted along the lines suggested by the HEAD OF THE MARINES in a letter to the NY Times on the issue at the time. That issue really caught on, politically, as a vehicle for antiprogressivism, and became a media extravaganza. Two or three other examples from this period are indicative. The health care program was not only designed to fail politically, it was designed to bring down the Democratic Party as much as possible. Having lightning rod Hillary do it accentuated this purpose. Kerry's proposals in this area actually make POLITICAL and POLICY sense, and then what you need to add as a first step is a GENERAL resolution by Congress in support of single payer and other parameters of a health care bill, and then have a Commission appointed (as he did in setting up a blue-ribbon whitewash or bluewash commission, like the Warren Commission was, to palm of Persian Gulf War Syndrome as psychosomatic, even though it has been proven -- ever so slightly --contagious). The Commission could then draw up comprehensive health plans. But that wasn't the elite agenda; they prefer the Medicare scam that Bush pushed through -- a complete ripoff instead of real reform.

Several other issues besides gays in the military and the health care fiasco were put in the programmed to fail agenda of the first two years of the Bill the Shill Administration. These included his NONpursuit in any serious way of popular major environmental issues like alternative energy, that could have passed in Congress and had popular support. That's how you build a progressive base for reform, as FDR did in the early thirties. You always start with the things that you CAN accomplish, and then use those accomplishments to build a larger agenda of reform, but that was the OPPOSITE of what Bill the Shill was always about. There were numerous other key issues (issues MUCH more important to gays than either gays in the military or gay marriage, both issues that could well be compromised yet somehow get pushed IN THE SYSTEM NOT FROM THE GRASSROOTS AS A GRASSROOTS PRIORITY as wedge issues. Laws against discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation or allowing basic civil union rights of visitation and inheritance and such that even W Bush says he supports, or a much more vigorous AIDS program (what I was suggesting a bill to push, and let the Republicans filibuster it, at the time, along with other POPULAR REFORMS). Walter Karp does an excellent job in analyzing this kind of dynamic -- this is all straight out of his playbook.

Two other issues were indicative in the Bill the Shill agenda. One was the issue of a lands policy, specifically at the point of MAXIMUM resistance and quickly weakened by Bruce Babbitt. It looked good on paper and was praised by the usual chorus of NY Times types, but was gasoline to the fires of the sagebrush movement while being of only secondary ecological importance, and was quickly backed away from. On the other hand, the Clinton Administration backed away from a popular environmental promise about a site in Ohio, and at no time really proposed ANY major ecological advances and slighted the issue, now an area where W Bush is moving backwards in massive and alarming ways. But NONE of the liberals like Bobby Kennedy Jr really publicly called the Clinton Administration on the environment front -- they should have been having hearings on the ozone layer and global warming instead of gays in the military -- AND DEMOCRATS WERE IN CONTROL OF BOTH HOUSES OF CONGRESS SO HAD NO EXCUSE.
Another interesting episode concerned the tax bill of '93. Republicans still wail about it, but it really is what set the foundations for the balanced budget and the prosperity of the 90s. Somehow it was constructed so that it passed by a single vote in the House, and thus EVERY Democrat in the House could be blamed for the tax increase. In unnecessarily included two key provisions -- one ending a tax break on businesses in Puerto Rico, and another taxing Social Security recipients with incomes of UNDER 40K (including my mother) both maximum political cost at minimum economic benefit. Was this mere accident? The budget was balanced on the backs of the Democrats, and they spent the next 6 years failing to take credit for it, and still do.

Then there was the Khallid Abdul Maurice Templesman Muhammad affaire. In response to a minor speech by a previously unheard of aide to Farrakhan, there was a full year (94) of fuss in the Bourbon-obedient press, without someone like myself having any access to the debate. Such is the nature of so-called freedom in the US -- a mere laundromat system for the issue of attainder, a core Constitutional concept. It is all one side and no opportunity for the other -- that's the name of the game, the nature of the 'sportsmanship'. The web could be used to really raise these issues, but as you can see with the cravenness of many of the leading bloggers (like spinsanity) on the election fraud issue that the mainstream press is sweeping under the rug -- it would need to be based OUTSIDE the US with authentic progressives who are forceful AND not accountable to the US machine of media justifying the lying. When the Congress unanimously passed a resolution supposedly condemning antisemitism -- the New York Times in a moment of a glimmer of integrity, in an editorial referred to it critically, as a "resolution condemning Farrakhan", in an editorial. But nothing was mounted in serious response to the underground agenda. That's because that sort of thing, along with throwing elections to a Republican Congress and W Bush is what this system is all about -- that and condemning anyone who points it out as 'in a tin foil hat'. It isn't as if there are fair elections or competition that is lost. Or a few cut corners that are then properly brought forward and then well yes Virginia a little laundered. It is nothing but a one-sided railroading system and the second estate (authentic Christianity now, not the hot-squat yahoos of rightwing so-called "Christianity") are only interested in preserving themselves in this context and (sometimes) throw a few crumbs of mitigation in those directions that could cover themselves or benefit themselves politically. And the system is getting worse, with the presidential elections -- other than Bill the Shill, with his special Congressional agenda -- of 88, 00 and 04 all being thrown.
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seafey Donating Member (204 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. Primaries...
I think the value of primaries is *way* underestimated! I remember going to my Dem Caucus with a sign that said "Kerry = Bush". The other side said "Kerry only votes 50% of his votes!" While I knew Kerry isn't exactly the equivalent of Bush, I was so sick that everyone there seemed to think it was a fucking Kerry rally. It's a CAUCUS, for crying out loud. Meant to bring people together to talk out who is the best candidate to go in. ARGH! I think we could have done better.
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seafey Donating Member (204 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
3. My answer to that...
Get involved with your local Dem Party and be the rock in their shoe. Are they doing what they're supposed to be doing in your county/parish? Learn Robert's Rules of Order and attend their meetings with the facts, insist on being heard, refuse to let them break their own bylaws, refuse to stand by. If you do that, others will join you, and county by county, the Dem Party *can* be made accountable.

That's what I'm doing. You should try it- it's fun!
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #3
69. Don't be a rock in the shoe. Be a leader. (nt)
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
4. I don't think it was on purpose
Edited on Wed Nov-17-04 01:57 PM by fujiyama
It was just really bad advice.

Many of us knew it even then...I was very critical of the way they were handling things at that time.
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Leilani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #4
64. And for those of us who said anything..
we were told we were being negative, were not aware of the amazing closing power of this man, how he was a fighter & would never give up, & other assurances that we were alarmists.
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bhairava Donating Member (65 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
5. Remember all the apologists here for Daschle said similar things
"He's really tough behind the scenes." "He speaks softly and carries a big stick," yadda, yadda, yadda... He couldn't even bring himself to condemn a racist idot like Trent Lott! He also DIDN"T obstruct the 200 right wing judges that the Bushies pushed through! Good riddance Tommy! And Kerry listened to his stupid campaign advisors who told him not to immediately strike back against the swift boat liars. Why would a candidate who won't fight for himself fight for me?! Answer: he won't and didn't (he folded quickly after election day despite myriad problems around the USA).
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
7. Riiiiight
he worked his ass off because he didn't really want to win. He got as emotional as I have ever seen him get in public at his concession because he didn't really want to win.

I swear, some here have as big a disconnect from reality as the president. It just leans left instead of right.
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bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
9. Nope.
I remember Kerry explaining his vote on the 87 billion several times and it was certainly NOT a flip-flop. The swift boat liars didn't warrant a response.
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Democat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. The swift boat liars didn't warrant a response?
Unless we wanted to win that is!
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bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. nonsense.
They had little or no effect on the election.
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smartasspol Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. don't misunderestimate the republican talking points
Edited on Wed Nov-17-04 02:13 PM by smartasspol
the hateful vitriol heard on conservative talk radio does make it into the collective conscious of the populace. just this weekend tom brokaw was booed when introduced to the crowd at an OU football game. reason: liberal media.
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bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Agreed, but I don't think the swift boat liars
change many minds. I think that they were seen as the partisan , lying hacks that they are. IMO , those who bought the bullshit would have voted for bush even without the swift boat liars.
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sonicx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. actually, it just wasn't about the swift liars themselves...
if it was just their dumb commericials, it would be no big deal.

It's the fact that the media let these idiots on the air for weeks and let their lies dominate coverage and place doubt into people's minds.

One trick i see people like Chris Matthews do is to 'let them on the air to tell their story' then 'denonce' them afterwards. here's a clue: if the story these guys tell is bullshit, DONT LET THEM ON THE AIR IN THE FIRST PLACE.
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Leilani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #13
62. Over the weekend Peter Hart, the pollster conducted a post-election
analysis, with Ohio voters...it was on C-Span, & very interesting.

Tried to figure out why people voted the way they did.

Question: what 1 ad do you remember during the campaign?
Answer: majority said Swiftboats.

It was EXTREMELY damaging.

Many people felt Kerry was not principled enough, strong enough, etc.
The ads needed to be answered.
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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #11
32. naaaah, bunch of nuts, noone will pay them any attention
:eyes:
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sonicx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. he didn't mention that bush 'flip floped' on the same issue.
Edited on Wed Nov-17-04 02:10 PM by sonicx
there were two seperate bills. one had Iraq loans and repels of the rich tax cuts. Bush threatened to veto. Kerry voted for the bill.

In a seperate version of the bill, the tax cuts remained and there were Iraq grants instead. Bush gave the thumbs up. Kerry voted no.

this isn't a "flip flip" IMO, since it was 2 seperate bills. but Bush and the media played it up against Kerry, without mentioning WHY Kerry voted how he did or the Bush veto threat.
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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #9
23. He answered PATHETICALLY at the first debate.
It was his chance to say:

"There were two bills. I voted for the one that would have made loans to Iraq and rolled back the tax cuts on the rich to balance our budget - BUT YOU THREATENED TO VETO IT, MR. PRESIDENT, and you INSISTED on a package that saddled all the financial burden on our children and our children's children, so I made a protest vote, because I knew the bill would pass. Why did YOU insist on ballooning the deficit?"

How fucking hard would it have been for him to say that?

And hell, yes he he should have addressed the swift boat liars. Who are the American sheeple to believe, The swifties appearing on EVERY cable news show EVERY NIGHT for WEEKS, or the deafening silence from Kerry and his campaign?

We tried to defend him from the false charges, but a bunch of internet geeks doesn't amount to a hill of beans if the damn candidate doesn't say anything!

Think about it, dammit!
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sonicx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
12. the 87 billion thing drove me up the fucking wall...
Edited on Wed Nov-17-04 02:11 PM by sonicx
Kerry could have easily beat this by bringing up bush's veto threat every chance he got ...

"He wanted to veto armor for the troops!"

The media knew this too, but played along with the 'flip flop' meme. thanks alot. :eyes:

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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #12
25. Exactly, there are a million "coulda's"
Kerry knew damn well he was dealing with a GOP whore media and that he would have to be three times ads good and fight three times as hard to win, but instead, he windsurfed and gave blasé answers to CRUCIAL questions, NEVER getting in the easy body blows that were laid out for him.

FUCK! Pisses me off just thinking about it.

I guess I'll just sit and wait here until his "secret plan" kicks in...
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KurtNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
16. Another one was he was "playing chess" with the Swift Liars
Edited on Wed Nov-17-04 02:10 PM by KurtNYC
When we were all pounding the table for him to hit back quickly and hard against an attack that we all knew was coming (remember Max Cleland), someone purporting to be a Democratic Strategist came to this board and told us quite condescendingly that Kerry was playing chess, while we wanted him to play checkers. The Kerry camp eventually responded about 9 days into the Swift Boat crap -- too little, too late.

If it was obvious to a majority of PR novices that you can't let lies breathe and breed and multiply -- Why wasn't it obvious to the Kerry camp?! It is basic PR. When a scandal breaks -- get out and hit back. Simple stuff so why didn't they do it? I lean toward your answer.

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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Look at who his advisors were
starting with milque-toast Mary Beth...

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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. And perennial LOSER Bob Shrum.
Hell, he would've been better off hiring the damn toe-sucker...
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Amen!
Boy do we have some losers to dump or what?

Julie
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Lone_Wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
20. I almost think that the Democratic Party is like the Washington Generals..
I understand your frustration. What really clinched it for me is the fact that Kerry is not asking for a recount in Ohio despite having more than $50 dollars in his campaign coffers.

I almost think that the Democratic Party is like the Washington Generals in a Harlem Globetrotter game. Both essentially serve the same purpose: the Democrats and the Washington Generals are destined to lose because the game is fixed.

The cynical part of me almost sees our party as a trap designed to catch Progressives. We waste lots of time and money with the DNC when these resources would be better used by real progressive parties like the Liberal Party and the Greens Party.
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TNOE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #20
30. Yep - the way I feel now is
that "we" were had on Kerry - but for the most part - we woke up - what Bush supporters don't know is - that they have been had too - they just don't know it yet, but they will, soon enough.

And then hopefully it will be ALL the people against the machine that seeks to enslave us all - I think now it was all a sick game - divide and conquer - while the handlers laughed all the way to the bank. This election was nothing more than a dog and pony show to make us think for a second that the people had a voice.
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Lone_Wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. You know... I thought that Dean was going to win the primaries...
and all of the sudden, the media persecutes him by playing "The Scream" about 50 billion times. It wasn't even a news event and they blew it completely out of proportion. At that point, I knew they had it out for him and that Kerry was the chosen one.

The elections are nothing more than the system giving us two corporate candidates. We then ratify one of them to be President which gives it the appearance of being an "election."

I've been interested in the Green's platform for a while now... I'm joining them.
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scarlett1 Donating Member (427 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
21. Not a sound bite
The press likes nice little sound bites
Kerry cannot talk in nice little sound bites and when he does they get cut to these short little -
'I voted for the 87 bil before I voted against it."
quote that just sounds stupid.
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
24. Bullshit - who do you think would have done better?
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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Dean, Clark, Bob Graham, Maybe even Edwards...
I would say Kucinich, but his appearance and politics would've doomed him.
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #28
57. Well, I guess that's why Kerry whooped them in the primaries
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #28
58. Well, I guess that's why Kerry whooped them in the primaries
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demodonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
27. The Voting Issues (OH and elsewhere) are NOT just about Kerry.
Kerry may not "snatch victory from the jaws of defeat in Ohio" but if we as a party do not succeed in getting this issue on the radar, and getting some changes made regarding these voting problems, the Dems will NEVER WIN again no matter who they run or what they do.

And no other political party will win either unless they get in bed with the corporations who own the voting "process".
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cloudythescribbler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
34. Yes, election thrown and rigged BOTH by Dems AND media
Udokier, you are exactly on the right track, but you don't go far enough. Let's look at the flipflop spin first.

The flipflop spin was the CENTRAL spin of the Republican campaign up through the second presidential debate. Bush's VERY FIRST SPEECH of the campaign, as soon as Kerry had clinched the nomination, about how the Democrats were "for NAFTA and against NAFTA, for the Patriot Act and against it, etc. ... and that's just one Senator from Massachusetts" established that theme clearly. In politics there is a 24-hour rule (of thumb) that any charge must be forcefully rebutted within a 24 hour news cycle or it sticks. This speech stood alone at that early point when Bush made it but Kerry didn't respond seriously at all. But this was only the beginning. Note that BOTH on NAFTA AND on the Patriot Act, the case for Kerry as flipflopper was very very weak. The $87 billion blooper was also weak, and only answered weakly in response. But the failure ALSO embraced the mass media, as Jonathan Chait, in probably the best piece in the campaign on the flipflop spin, "The Invention of Flipflop" explained in detail its flimsiness across the board (cover story of The New Republic, Oct 18 issue, first posted on the web Oct 7). But Chait has to do what ALL the media do, namely justifying the lying. That's their function in our system of only a pretended freemarketplace of ideas. The first thing they teach people in journalism school is to "clean up your quotes" when quoting important personages, not a homeless wino -- and the fix gets tighter from there on. Chait has to justify the lying by explaining away (flimsily) FIVE MONTHS of mass media silence, as the points he made could just as easily have been made in May or earlier; he palms it off as just media herd instinct. But the reason BOTH the media and the Democrats were silent is -- you guessed it -- justifying the lying, the way the system works routinely. It's the elephant in the room of US civilization that it is the function ("serving") of the mass media to obscure and hide. And they do a pretty good job. Chomsky, whose ideas in Manufacturing Consent only begin to tell the tale, doesn't focus on the REPRESSIVE ASPECT of this process, which is mainly underground and which I have focused on for 20 years (more about this in other postings). The point is that it AIN'T voluntary conformity, boobie. You seriously threaten the system of justifying the lying in this society and it's like any other repressive state, only more discreet, so that it doesn't create headlines. Vitiating real free expression and democracy is what "serving" means to this system, not a free choice of populist Bob Dylanesque spin where 'everyone' has to be a part of society' but an eggplant tennis anyone system where it's all for the elite and its agenda and authentic progressivism is never on the menu of choices -- and exceptions to this rule are too trivial to even run the risk of tipping the scales of history.

But the flipflop spin, not even seriously challenged by media watchdogs until AFTER the Republican convention (see eg Brian Keefer Sept 7 piece at spinsanity.org and Marc Sandalow Sept 23 article in the San Fransisco Chronicle). Note that when Kerry, forced by a questioner in the second presidential debate who noted that the MAIN reason her friends didn't want to vote for him was because they thought him wishywashy, managed to half heartedly but still effectively show how he wasn't a flipflopper on the Patriot Act -- the flipflop spin had reached its point of diminishing returns and moved quickly to the back burner.

That weekend of Oct 7 through 10 was a crucial turning point in the campaign, and any close observer could see that within the week by the third debate. On Oct 7, Chait had devastated the flipflop spin already, but only in highbrow press that no one reads. Curiously it was NEVER picked up in the mainstream press, with not a single oped column or editorial along those lines throughout the entire campaign, even after Chait's article came out. But when the flipflop spin seemed to peak out -- but still was believed by 60% of the public or so, according to Democracy Corps -- a new spin was found, starting on the pages of big Democrat Liberal (but 'reporting for duty')NY Times. Matt Bai painted Kerry precisely along the lines Kerry had been cast by the Bush Administration on terror -- falsely suggesting that Kerry advocated LESS military confrontation with terrorism when Kerry had repeatedly stated that he wanted to massively INCREASE the special forces and INTENSIFY the half-hearted fight against Al Qaeda, with Kerry supplying a quote using "nuisance" as a little bonus. (It wasn't just a matter that Snowcroft had used the term nuisance -- but that it was a term of art used by terrorism experts, mainly Israeli). But neither the Democrats NOR the media ever took Bai to task for his spin, while the right wing (eg listings at RealClear politics.com) had a tsunami of DAILY columns based on and magnifying the distortions of the Bai highbrow demagogy in the May 10 New York Times Magazine. (See eg, Dick Morris, "Nuisance Nonsense" Oct 12 NY Post for a bit of lowbrow demagogy along these lines). It was also the central theme of the Republican campaign for the last three weeks of the campaign. In the middle of that period, on Oct 9, the NY Times ran an interesting face-saving (for them)piece by Scott Dadich, a graphic designer, who cogently argued (but too late, mind you, to help) that the Kerry/Edwards logo conveyed a kind of subliminal message of confusion and weakness, pointing out the poor design of the flag, the poor lettering, and the fact that if you closed your eyes and then opened them suddenly to look at the logo, you would see the name Edwards before Kerry. What of course is never addressed is why no one had pointed this out three months earlier, or the DELIBERATENESS of it (which is kept unstated). Such is how the system of US machine politics works, routinely. And when they can't use spin doctory, as with King AND Kennedy in '68, they use other "family" methods to enforce the agenda -- routinely, and launder it in the dual Moscone/Milk assassinations on 11/27 in SF.
The next step is for the craven pseudo-opposition always to consider anyone who dares to point out the basic truths of the system as an evil equivalent to the system itself. ("Don't want no holleration, hatoration" -- the Manufacturing Consent dynamics do NOT end at the race barrier, by any means!)

One little added detail, where Kerry could NOT say anything, and the media alone were craven. A chorus of protestation (Krauthammer eg, before the tape was released and Safire afterwards) suggested in the conservative media that Osama wanted Kerry in '04; others including the Republican campaign repeatedly INSINUATED it. But the release of the tape strongly suggested that Osama sought a Bush victory, if he had any preference, and had VERY GOOD REASON for that preference. But liberals would never dare to suggest in a single MSM column that such was the case, although one column in the NY Times the DAY BEFORE the tape came out strongly suggested WHY Osama would have that preference. Again all justify the lying.

And that's what they are all doing now about the vote fraud issue, down to the astroturf roots. Even ambitious bloggers are mysteriously silent, like spinsanity.org. Almost nothing from Eschaton which was beside themselves in the Sinclair flap. And so is the nature of the system, down to the astroturf roots. There has been some good stuff at talking points memo and even a teensy bit at eschaton, but basically its another pack of media hounds that didn't bark. They -- having been to doggy school -- didn't bark about flipflop, in any potentially effective timely way. Then the Bai distortion and its progeny. And in any timely way about the logo. And about the Osama tape. And now about voter fraud. Welcome to the REAL America! Well, this is what those who believe in the ideals of the US need to challenge and overcome, and it is a HUGE task! There ARE people who, even if they are understandably cautious, in the face of brute repression, who are both knowledgeable (much moreso than this author) and seeking democracy. But authentic progressives need to really get their s*** together or things will continue to get worse, ending up like the anti-utopia described in the heroic Walt Whitman's "Respondez! Respondez!".
CLOUDY THE SCRIBBLER
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Gold Metal Flake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. I wanna be at the next union hall you speak at.
Edited on Wed Nov-17-04 03:48 PM by Opposite Reaction
Brother, I just don't see the Democratic Party being able to change. So, what next?

ON EDIT: Welcome to DU.
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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #34
46. Helluva First Post.
And Welcome to DU!
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The Night Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
36. Ridiculous
If Kerry didn't want to win, then why did he decimate Bush in all 3 debates?

The problem is not the candidates we run. The problem is America. We need to stop doubting ourselves.
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Gold Metal Flake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Marcel Marceau could have beat Bush at the debates.
A high schooler could have beat him.
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The Night Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Right, but Kerry didn't just beat Bush in the debates. He embarrassed him.
Why would Kerry embarrass Bush if he wanted Bush to win?
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Gold Metal Flake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Again, it is simple to embarras Bush in a public setting.
Bush should have gone down big.

Either Kerry held back in the election, or he's a bigger tool than any of us thought. They say that he wanted to go after the SBVs, but Shrum held him back. Maybe that's window dressing.
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The Night Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. So, if Kerry not only defeated Bush, but also embarrassed him...
So, if Kerry not only defeated Bush, but also embarrassed him, what more did you expect Kerry to do? Punch Bush's lights out?

At some point, the choice is up to the American people. The American people had all the information they needed to make the right choice and they still made the wrong choice. Like I said, the problem is the people who voted for Bush.

Could Kerry have done more? Maybe, but sometimes, doing more backfires.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #41
55. The more Bush was embarrassed the more his Throng adored him
Or so it seems. It's like he has some kind of spell on them.
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Leilani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #39
65. Kerry did not embarrass him
Bush embarrassed himself.

Kerry played it safe...gentlemanly, polite, carefully worded answers.

He had many opportunities in all 3 debates to make KILLER points...he didn't do it.

IMO Kerry did not win the debates, Bush lost them.
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Uzybone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
37. More stabs in the back from the whiny wing
instead of looking for ways to win, you guys are prancing about, glad that we lost. We need more doers and less whiners in this party.
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a new day Donating Member (333 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #37
43. Not in the back, telling him straight-on that he's a political hack n/t
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Gold Metal Flake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #37
44. We can all do without the ad hominens.
Meanwhile, I see no end to the rightward march of the Democratic Party leadership. I see no indication that the Democratic Party is ready to assume the mantle of the Opposition Party. I see acquiescence and accommodation. Neither will win elections.

I am interested in discussing this. If you are as well, lets proceed. But if you want to attack, please don't bother.
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #37
52. ironically, the "whiners" agree with you...
they are also saying we need more doers and less whiners.

the only difference is, they want the Dem leadership to learn that lesson, not other DUers.
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Redleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
42. Kerry addressed the 87 Billion dollar question several times.
I guessed you missed that.
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sonicx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. V.E.T.O.
he never mentioned Bush's attempt to veto...before he supported it.
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Redleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. You are right about that and I don't understand why he missed the
opportunity during the debates. If Kerry had said that in each of the three debates the media would have had to address Bush's inconsistency on the $87 B.
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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #42
48. Please furnish a SINGLE quote.
one where he addresses it as I suggested (WEEKS before the election), not just saying "I spoke poorly about my vote, but Bush was deceptive in starting the war."

That was bullcrap, and it did NOT answer the accusation at all.
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Redleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. He addressed it several times in interviews and on the campaign trail.
Edited on Wed Nov-17-04 04:50 PM by Redleg
Why should I have to provide you a quote? You are the one making the accusations and suggesting Kerry didn't want to win the election.
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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. Because I paid pretty cclose attention throughout the campaign
and I NEVER heard him address it definitively, He should have gone on Tim Russert's "Meet the Whore" and stated it unequivocally.

Maybe he wanted to win. But not very badly.
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Redleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. I paid close attention too. Yes- he should have used a national forum
like whore Russert to straighten things out.
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
49. It's the media stupid.
The fight in the public arena was completely fixed. Should Kerry have done some things differently, yes, would it have changed anything, probably not.

Kerry did a great job considering how much the system was set up against him.
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #49
54. then he should have addressed the system setup
repubs have no problem complaining about unfair media coverage...and look what it gets them -- unfair media coverage IN THEIR FAVOR. There's a lesson to be learned, there.
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cloudythescribbler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #49
68. Media system issue
First, Kerry did a LOUSY job, for example in not countering the flipflop spin and not even taking Matt Bai to task on his distortions in the Oct 10 NY Times Magazine article -- which was a key point in the campaign, blazing a trail of media distortions that was followed over the next three weeks by literally dozens of other columnists.


Second,
True, SOMETIMES you can get a more favorable response by challenging the media, if you do it well, but remember that when progressives have legitimate complaints, they are fobbed off as "whining" or as "Sore Loserman". If the rightwing has a complaint, it's the system for everyone to stop everything and start smooching their asses bigtime. There's no symmetry in a vertical playing field.

But THIRD, it is the task for activists at the grass roots to call the media on issues and the defaults of the campaigns. The first line of response is the media watchdogs online -- like Eschaton, Talking Points memo, Media Matters, Spinsanity, and FAIR. They are the hounds that don't bark and BOTH by posting there AND by bombarding them -- eg why are they sweeping the issue of election fraud and the mainstream media's sweeping of election fraud under the rug? You can also try to write to mainstream media -- I have emailed over 60 letters to the NY Times during this election campaign, including over 50 short and topical ones, and exactly ZERO ever saw print> (I'm talking about succinct, not like these posts where you have the opportunity to ramble.) Progressives need to organize to FORCE the mainstream media to stop justifying the lying, or they will do so. Another key dimension is interational. It's a real embarassment if a lot of people start contacting LeMonde or other foreign press about how the US media are burying the election fraud issues. This is an EXCELLENT sphere for activists to challenge the mainstream's burial of important questions and to organize to "Break the Shell" of mainstream media systematic justifying of the lying.
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arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
56. Here! Have Some Cheese! :-)
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Jack_DeLeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
59. "He was a setup and he never really wanted to win."
Well I would say that there have been worse conspriacy theorys here.

Sadly yours seems to have some truth to it.

After all he was and Bush were both fellow Skull and Bones members.

Also it seems funny how he came out of nowhere to beat Dean for the nomination.

Kerry seemed to put up a decent fight, albeit with moments of stupidity, that he was ultimately destined to fail.

If he was a setup he played his loser role well.
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seaj11 Donating Member (506 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. setup? loser role?
Ridiculous! I'm not some "eternal optimist" who can't or won't see the truth--such statements as "he was a setup and he never really wanted to win" are simply ridiculous. Where do you get these crazy ideas? You're willing to upset the whole system in order to justify Kerry's loss, and you already know that the voting system is corrupt.

I don't get it. :shrug:
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cloudythescribbler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #59
70. Setup issue not just Kerry but Democrats and Media MACHINE
It is silly to look on the setup issue -- which I discussed in Posting "Yes election thrown and rigged ..." on same site -- without looking at larger context. It isn't just a matter of Kerry personally or "skull and bones" but silence by the Democrats AND the media about crucial spins that I have discussed.

Nor is this something unique to this election. There's the Dukakis situation, where he was leading by 8% at the time of the Democratic Convention and the Village Voice ran a cover story headline "Will He Blow It?" which indeed he did. It's also with Gore, as the media were falling over each other to cover for Bush's not knowing who the head of state of either India or Pakistan were. A NY Times op-ed columnist (was it Doris Kearns Goodwin? I don't remember for sure) even suggested that JFK might not have known the names of four "obscure" world leaders in 1960 (Nehru??? PULEEEEZ!). But that's how justifying the lying works down to the astroturf roots. To really struggle for democracy is to see how the SYSTEM functions, and to try to challenge and expose it at its most vulnerable points, on the web, organizing around voter fraud now AND THE MEDIA SIDELINING OF IT, fingering those who act as credentiallers of the lying (like David Corn now) and so forth. It really requires an overall view THOUGH NOT NECESSARILY ALWAYS GOING OUTSIDE THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY AS SOME SUGGEST. Sometimes, as in SF, it is a good idea to run third party, sometimes, as in 2000 it is positively destructive, calculated to set up third party efforts for the blame and poisoning the waters for when such a thing is needed and appropriate. Strategy is a whole other kettle of fish
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