Refute the entire "liberals are keeping our country from God" belief.

[davsand]

One of the biggest weapons the uber-conservatives have against the Democratic party is the church and state argument. This last election really was heavily influenced by the opinion that the positions taken on gay marriage and abortion are the only determinants of leadership ability.

I'm getting awful tired of the entire mindset out there that liberal somehow equates to Godless. I am also getting really tired of the attacks on the churches by folks who are normally pretty open minded.

It's time to learn how to fight back.

Seems to me that the quickest way to shut up the folks who insist that God must be a factor in government is to talk to them about the intent of the folks who actually created this little experiment called the US. This article does an excellent job of giving you all the ammo and quotes you need to do the job:

005/02/04/opinion/main671823.shtml

Our Godless Constitution


It is hard to believe that George Bush has ever read the works of George Orwell, but he seems, somehow, to have grasped a few Orwellian precepts. The lesson the President has learned best -- and certainly the one that has been the most useful to him -- is the axiom that if you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it. One of his Administration's current favorites is the whopper about America having been founded on Christian principles. Our nation was founded not on Christian principles but on Enlightenment ones. God only entered the picture as a very minor player, and Jesus Christ was conspicuously absent.

Our Constitution makes no mention whatever of God. The omission was too obvious to have been anything but deliberate, in spite of Alexander Hamilton's flippant responses when asked about it: According to one account, he said that the new nation was not in need of "foreign aid"; according to another, he simply said "we forgot." But as Hamilton's biographer Ron Chernow points out, Hamilton never forgot anything important...

Read the entire article, please! It will give you quotes from the founding fathers that will let you refute virtually any position that liberal is "Godless" and that our nation was founded for the sake of Christianity's sole advancement.

Discuss, please!

Laura

[Not_Giving_Up]

1. Dear religious individual...

If you believe in God, then no one can get between you and your beliefs. Just because some people choose not to believe as you do (that's freedom of religion, by the way), should not interfere with what you believe.

The whole country does not believe in God, that's why this is a DEMocracy, not a THEocracy. For the most part, if you would stop pushing your beliefs off on others, the others would leave you alone.

[davsand]

2. I've used that argument before--and got no where with it.

I've had any number of times I tried that argument and I have to tell you, I got no place with it. Usually, the response has been that morality is what they are seeking in a leader--and that must, therefore, mean "Christian."

Using the argument that the founding fathers specifically detailed why they eliminated religion from the mix might advance the argument.

I dunno--it seems to me that we have always relied upon the logic that we are liberals, we are doing what it "morally right" and why can't everyone see that...

Maybe we'll get further with concrete examples?


Laura

[Not_Giving_Up]

4. Christian does not equal moral

There are plenty of people out there who claim to be Christians, but we later find out that they have done some unspeakable things.

My parents are fundies, religion was crammed down my throat as a kid. You want to know what I learned? If you ask enough questions, they run out of answers. Eventually, it became the devil that was making me ask these questions, and I was just told to go read the Bible. To this day, they insist that my chiildren should be in church, and each time, I tell them to mind their own business.

I don't try to make the beleivers not believe, unless they try to make me into a believer.

[More Than A Feeling]

3. Point out the following

When Jesus was in the desert being tempted by Satan, he was offered authority over the kingdoms of the Earth in exchange for submitting to Satan. He refused.

By this, we learn that the temptation for Christianity to rule countries in this world is one that should not be accepted, because it is evil.

Furthermore, Jesus never asked Pontius Pilate for money for faith based initiatives.

As you can see, I think the key to talking to the ones you mention is not whipping out the constitution, but showing how what they want goes against what they claim to believe.

[Calvinist Basset]

8. I concur.

You have to use their language to get anywhere.

[Must_B_Free]

5. Falling for tricks of nomonclature

If you let them control the debate, to disarticulate and pervert the words, then you are defeated.

"God" is a broad and multifaceted term. The actual situation is that Liberals are the ones who are spiritual and enlightened. Neo Conservatives have bread an army, in the tradition of Constantines revision of Christianity, of orclike zombies, and told them they are doing good by invading and killing people.

So their arguments have to be dissected and debunked at the languge level and simply revealed for what they really are saying. I don't see much point into feeding into their game beyond that.

[Calvinist Basset]

10. This makes me think of a quote from Blaise Pascal.

"The intellect can be strong and narrow; and can also be comprehensive and weak."

Sounds just like the folks we're discussing...

[zbdent]

6. Not that it would do much good, but

a lot of "Old Testament" mentality would negate the "Christian" "New Testament" mentality - Old Testament would be un-Christian, since a lot of it is not referred to by Jesus, the very basis of "Christianity". If not for Jesus, what would it be called? (Judaism?)

[Calvinist Basset]

9. I'm not sure I understand what you're suggesting.

The Old Testament isn't un-Christian; in fact--theologically speaking--the New Testament cannot stand on its own without the Old Testament.

[donco6]

7. Jesus said it best

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell R836 F492 as yourselves" (Matthew 23:15, NASB).

*Liberals* keeping people from God? Pfaw. That's being done quite well by Christians themselves.

[KnowerOfLogic]

11. I don't *want* to refute that idea; there is no proof that god even

exists. The idea that we should be refuting is that a belief in a certain religious orthodoxy is a pre-requisite for being a leader or a viable political party in the US.

[mediaman007]

12. Don't even waste your time...they've been "branded!"

For more than 15 years the Right has been building their base and holding them with brand loyalty. That's the purpose of Limbaugh, Hannity, FOX, Neocons, Fundamentals, and the Rapture. These people will have to discover the truth themselves, you can't lead them.

That is why the country is in trouble. Just think Coke vs Pepsi, or Ford vs Chevy. They will resist anything that doesn't fit their world.

Sad but true.