Here is the BEST case scenario in the Italian Hostage case

[Tweed]

Let's put everything aside when it comes to the Sgrena case. For the sake of an argument, let's say there is no conspiracy. Sgrena wasn't deliberately attacked on. Her car was fired on by well-intentioned troops who thought they were preventing a terrorist from getting inside of the airport. Here is the best case scenario:

1. The chain of command is doing a terrible job of providing accurate ammunition training.

These soldiers shot over 300 rounds and didn't hit the engine block or two passengers in the vehicle. In this case, it turned out to be fortunate. In other cases, this would be deadly for our troops. Our troops are over there risking their lives and this is the best training we can give them? How dare such inadequate training be provided! Loss of life should be kept at a minimum and that simply can't be done if our troops do not receive proper accuracy training. If our troops can't hit the right targets, they put innocent Iraqis in danger and they put themselves in danger too. If you have two guys coming at you and one person has a gun that shoots farther than the other guy, you have to hit the right guy first. Otherwise, you could easily end up dead.

2. The chain of command is doing a terrible job of providing adequate road block setups

The car had passed several road blocks, the first road block should have been able to send the message up the road that a safe car holding international dignitaries would be driving through. This allows roadblock personnel to know what is coming so they can relax when they see the car coming up or if they see a car that doesn't match, they can be more alert. Even more importantly, if the car doesn't come at all, they know strange is going on.
The road blocks should have more than just armed soldiers ready to shoot. Pop up spikes can be placed on the road and set to pop up by remote. This will slash a car's tires and allow the car to be a sitting duck. Yet another measure to protect our troops that apparently wasn't in place here. Does Bush and company care about our soldiers safety at all?!

3. The chain of command has done a poor job of securing Iraq.

The war is over? Iraq has its own government? Yet, We still have to have systems of road blocks set up! Our troops have to be on high alert when they are half a mile from an airport! Clearly the chain of command has no idea how to do anything right. It's been two years and terrorists are still dictating how we do things. It's so bad that we don't even have check points setup properly. If we don't have checkpoints set up properly, what does that say about water, electricity, etc.? How can Bush and the chain of command have such poor regard for the well being of our troops?

Again, this is the best case scenario. It would be hard for even the most hardcore Bush supporter to argue this (Hence I suggest you use these items because Iraq/Bush supporters are likely to laugh off any type of conspiracy theory).

[NYC]

1. All four people in the car were injured.

Sgrena from shrapnel. Calipari a bullet wound in the head. One of the Italians was so seriously injured that he could not be transported back to Italy with Sgrena and the other one.

However, I must agree that 300 to 400 bullets ought to kill everyone in a car.

It reminds me of Amadou Diallo. The 4 policemen fired 41 bullets into a small vestibule, and 19 bullets struck Diallo. That means that 22 bullets missed at close range. It makes you wonder about proficiency.

[The Doctor.]

2. One is not generally trained to be accurate with a firearm...

The best way I can put it is to say that 'aiming is bad tactics'.

Under adverse conditions, police are trained to simply unload their weapon at the threat to 'stop the action'.

They are not trained to aim under those circumstances.

Sure - marksmanship training will help improve accuracy, but it does not prepare someone to deal with an imminent threat.

I've shot pistol for a few years and I'm very accurate when I have a second to aim. In a 'panic fire' drill 19 out of 41 is above average.

If you ever get the chance to shoot and you hone your accuracy - try a 'panic fire' drill and watch what happens to your score.

In a possible car-bomb situation, they would unload *in the attempt* to kill all occupants and/or stop the vehicle.

I am not, however, making excuses for the incompetent system they had in place for checkpoints.

There is no excuse for that level of incompetence.

This story as a whole has some remarkably fishy aspects to it as well.

[NYC]

3. What about 41 bullets fired in a small vestibule?

Are you familiar with the size of a NYC vestibule? It's very small.

Does your answer still apply?

[The Doctor.]

7. Yes, actually.

How far away were they?

Even at close range, a near 50% hit rate in a panic fire situation is good.

I'm not excusing those police either. I know that there are some truly evil men in blue out there, but even if I gave them the benefit of the doubt, their judgement was horrific.

I did say that 19 out of 41 is above average.

Remember the one scene in "Pulp Fiction" when the guy comes out of the kitchen firing wildly at the hit men and misses completely?

That's not so far-fetched. More likely- he should have hit at least one of them once. They did get lucky, but again - such a thing could easily happen.

[NYC]

8. Most vestibules are only big enough for two people to pass

each other, and not comfortably at that. People usually wait for one to exit before another enters.

I don't really remember the scene in "Pulp Fiction", but any room would be much larger than a vestibule.

I believe you that 19 out of 41 is above average, but I still doubt that it is above average in a vestibule.

[ConsAreLiars]

5. There was no checkpoint

according to the survivors. Their car was illuminated with a spotlight and then shot up. No checkpoint at all, not even one operated by homicidal fear-driven incompetents.

[Tweed]

6. Right, but just to play devil's advocate

Let's say the American story is 100% true (which I doubt it is), if it is all true, we still have those fundamental issues going on.

[The Magistrate]

4. An Excellent Analysis, Mr. Tweed

You sound like you have some experience at this sort of thing....

"When shooting a pistol from a horse, accuracy is immeasureably improved if the muzzle is in contact with the target when firing."