OK, can anyone tell me WTF an 'America-Basher' is?

[WilliamPitt]

I've been letting it cook all day, and I just can't seem to grasp the concept.

Is one an 'America-Basher' if one criticizes the supremacy of the corporate overmind?

Is one an 'America-Basher' if one attacks the war in Iraq?

Is one an 'America-Basher' if one posits that the last 50 years of American foreign policy has played a supreme role in the development of international terrorism?

Is one an 'America-Basher' if one criticizes the complacency of the average American, a complacency that has been pruposefully ground into much of the populace by an abundance of food, a lack of discourse, and an anemic news media?

I just don't know.

By the way, Jesus wasn't white. Just FYI.

[Thtwudbeme]

1. Jesus the Myth WAS white

Identify your Jesus' please.

[CatWoman]

17. and he's my baby's daddy!!!!

he just wears that white mask trying to escape the authorities cause he's behind on his child support!!!!

[ultraist]

20. LMAO!!!

[Ladyhawk]

43. Jesus moonwalks, "Catwoman is not my lover..." n/t

[Anakin Skywalker]

53. LOL!

[ronnykmarshall]

56. You poor dear!

But you're not alone!

[Fenris]

102. ROFL

:thumbsup:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

2. and I was born ok the first time

[Dave Reynolds]

8. Me too,

and I checked with my mom, she thought once was enough as well.

[kliljedahl]

34. Me too, once is enough unless you believe in reincarnation

[SarahB]

105. If one is born again....

do they get an extra belly button? :7

[TankLV]

108. Me too.

No desire to do it all again - unless I can reclaim my virginity, too!

[Arkana]

3. While I know EXACTLY what you're referring to

I won't go into it, because I will get modded and/or banned.

No, all those things are more American than anything this misadministration has done in 5 years. Dissent is patriotic. Silence is not.

[mhr]

4. Yes, To All Your Questions

Generally, one is an "America Basher" if one does not agree with Bush, the Republican party, or the tenets of fundamentalists.

[kliljedahl]

37. Don't forget Faux news

http://www.kliljedahl.net

[justiceischeap]

5. Simple answer... Yes

The right and some on the left for that fact consider anyone who hasn't drank the kool-aid an america basher. Some people have no concept of looking in the mirror for the answer to their problems. Not to get bashed for agreeing with Ward Churchill but he had it right in that America is complicite in creating the problems we are now facing with our foreign policies.

[cry baby]

6. I think what some would call "America Bashers" are people that hate

American policies, not America. Some just don't know how else to express it other than saying "America is evil" or America Sucks". I have only seen 3 or 4 people actually "America-Bash" here on DU.

I hate being painted with a broad brush because of 3 or 4 people out of some 65,000.

[JDPriestly]

7. Why do you say Jesus wasn't white.

I may be mistaken, but I have always thought that North African/Middle Ea stern people, although darker than most Europeans, are considered to be Caucasians including Iranians and Iraqis. They are white. Obviously, Jesus was not European. Depictions of a blond Jesus are not realistic. Correct me if I am wrong on this.

[WilliamPitt]

11. Mmmm...

Inaccurate.

[JDPriestly]

35. Jewish people are Caucasians.

As are others in the Middle East. What is your evidence to the contrary?

[CatWoman]

40. he doesn't look very caucasian to me

[JDPriestly]

106. Here is what Encarta says about racial classifications

based on genetics.

When scientists examine a large number of different genes, some distinctions between groups begin to appear more clearly. For example, one can usually find some degree of genetic differentiation between populations separated by geographic barriers, such as seas, mountains, and rivers. This occurs because geographic barriers tend to isolate populations from each other, although no barrier seems to completely prevent interbreeding of populations. The genetic differentiation observed between such populations is always extremely modest and not discernible without a thorough analysis. In most areas of the world, genetic traits, like phenotypic (external) traits, are distributed clinally—that is, they vary in a smooth, gradual pattern across geographic areas. For example, in Central Asia the transition from a European type to an East Asian type (as defined by gene frequencies) is almost continuous, making the task of drawing a boundary between “European” and “Asian” races impossible. Around the world, abrupt changes in gene frequencies are unusual between neighboring populations. The reason is that human groups, throughout history, have generally mixed and mated with one other, guaranteeing a constant flow of genes between populations.
*******

It is my understanding that the "Caucasian race," assuming such a thing exists, encompasses a wide variety of physical traits. Assuming that Jesus looked like the picture you posted, what race do you think he belonged to? He does not look Scandinavian, but he does not look anything other than Caucasian to me.

As far as I can trace my genealogy, my ancestors were all European, however, while there are a lot of blonds, there are quite a few of us who have very dark skin. Some of us were even born with Mongolian spots. If you go back far enough, many (maybe even most) of us who think we are "white" are actually racial mixtures.

[H2O Man]

109. While the description

is certainly of merit, it is important to recognize where the Middle East is. It is not isolated; in fact, it was a most significant center for a good many people of different backgrounds.

The idea of "race" per say may not have as much merit as the general grouping of gene pools and associated physical traits. But again, the Middle East has long been a center where different peoples could be found.

[JDPriestly]

118. I agree.

And many of us are mixtures. The idea that a particular person "belongs" to a particular race is probably inaccurate. We define ourselves as belonging to a race depending on how we look, but also on how our family defined itself. I have met African Americans who were lighter than some people in my "white" family. We have had a number of interesting (not always pleasant) experiences related to this.

[H2O Man]

79. Many.

And certainly most today. But not all, by any means.

[Donailin]

119. shroud of turin

that is likely image of Christ assuming the Turin is authentic

[Ladyhawk]

19. We really don't even know if he existed.

The story of Jesus mirrors many stories of pagan "christs" such as Dionysus, Mithras and Osirus, to name a few. It's beginning to look like Jesus was a composite of various religious traditions which may or may not have focused on an actual historical character.

[Ladyhawk]

9. Beats me.

:shrug:

Why is it wrong to point out problems in one's society? America is too ethnocentric and big-headed. That's part of the problem. People high on jingoistic nationalism--is that redundant?--won't listen to any criticism of America, its government, its corporations or its religious organizations.

It's annoying as hell. :mad:

[LynzM]

10. I hear ya, WP

Personally, I'd call that government-bashing or society-bashing, but... somehow, I don't think calling it like it is was really the whole point, after all.

[Skip Intro]

12. Thanks!

I was on the brink of posting the same question not 5 minutes ago.

I'd like to know the definition.

Wonder if an America-basher is the same as an American-hater (or just communist for short, or even worse, "liberal"?).

[yvr girl]

13. If you don't know - you must hate America.

Anyone who speaks truth to power.

Someone who has the audacity to question the status quo.

All those pesky people who refuse to drink the Kool-ade.

Anyone who questions the supremacy of all things American.

[walldude]

14. I just posted this in the other America Basher thread

If being against the war is anti-American then I am.
If being pro-choice is anti-American then I am.
If being for gay marrige is Anti-American then I am.
If being for stem-cell research is Anti-American then I am.
If being for helping people who need it is anti-American then I am.
If being against tax-cuts for the rich is anti-American then I am.
If being against government propaganda is anti-American then I am.
If being honest is anti-American then I am.
If being for protection of the enviroment is anti-American then I am.
If being able to think for myself is anti-American then I am.
If dissent is anti-American then I am.
If protesting is anti-American then I am...
I could do this all day. If you don't like that I love the ideal of America but that the reality of this country, at this moment in time, is a big steaming pile of shit then too bad.
I'm not going to stand down and put up with the crap thats going on just because America says it's right. My parents raised me to know the difference between right and wrong. Not "my country right or wrong" but right and wrong. You don't like "America bashers" then find a way to get rid of me...

[hiley]

81. I like the way

you think ! Especially the last two sentences.

[JHB]

15. It's a state of mind...

...not of the "basher", mind you, but of the name-caller.

It's a fantasy, a cartoon character, like the Clintons as "radical left-wingers".

It's something that irks you, and therefore becomes a canvas on which you paint all your anger and hatred, and you don't give a dman whether it has anything to do with reality or not. A tantrum of the psyche.

[KG]

16. for some folks, bashing = any less that abject fawning praise.

[denverbill]

18. If you don't know what one is, then you probably are one.

You're either with us or against us, so if you don't know an America basher when you see one, you must be one.

All real Americans know what an America-basher looks like. If you criticized slavery in 1860, you were an America-basher. If you criticized the Sand Creek massacre in 1864, you were an America basher. If you criticized My Lai, ditto.

[BigBearJohn]

21. America-Basher? EASY. It's spelled R-E-P-U-B-L-I-C-A-N

God, didnt they teach you ANYTING in colledge?

Or is this a trick question? If it is, ask Gannon.

[XemaSab]

22. If you have to ask, you are one

n/t

[TomClash]

23. An America-basher is . . .

. . . anyone who criticizes American foreign policy in any way during a time of War.

. . . anyone who thinks there may be something to learn from those in a foreign land.

. . . anyone who ever says the United States is doing something wrong and another country is doing something right.

I think that's what the Right means when they say "America-basher." I think they confuse the words better and basher.

I don't know what color Jesus was. But I do know that the only true Christians are colorblind.

[stellanoir]

24. an America-Basher is anyone who has

happened to notice the not so subtle, 14 conditions described at this link. . .

http://www.ericblumrich.com/14.html

and who is bothered by their insipid erosion of all the magnificant attributes that this country used to represent and embody.

[kliljedahl]

46. Excellent !!!

Is there a way I could download a copy of it?

[GreenArrow]

25. "Fightin' Side of Me"

If you're doing the things Merle sings about, you are 'Merica bashing.

"I hear people talkin' bad,
About the way we have to live here in this country,
Harpin' on the wars we fight,
An' gripin' 'bout the way things oughta be.
An' I don't mind 'em switchin' sides,
An' standin' up for things they believe in.
When they're runnin' down my country, man,
They're walkin' on the fightin' side of me.
Yeah, walkin' on the fightin' side of me.
Runnin' down the way of life,
Our fightin' men have fought and died to keep.
If you don't love it, leave it:
Let this song I'm singin' be a warnin'.
If you're runnin' down my country, man,
You're walkin' on the fightin' side of me.

I read about some squirrely guy,
Who claims, he just don't believe in fightin'.
An' I wonder just how long,
The rest of us can count on bein' free.
They love our milk an' honey,
But they preach about some other way of livin'.
When they're runnin' down my country, hoss,
They're walkin' on the fightin' side of me.

Yeah, walkin' on the fightin' side of me.
Runnin' down the way of life,
Our fightin' men have fought and died to keep.
If you don't love it, leave it:
Let this song I'm singin' be a warnin'.
If you're runnin' down my country, man,
You're walkin' on the fightin' side of me.

Yeah, walkin' on the fightin' side of me.
Runnin' down the way of life,
Our fightin' men have fought and died to keep.
If you don't love it, leave it:
Let this song I'm singin' be a warnin'.
If you're runnin' down my country, man,
You're walkin' on the fightin' side of me."

-- Merle Haggard

OBEY, BREED, CONSUME

[Ladyhawk]

47. Merle Haggard is talentless. Now I also know he's dumber...

...than a box of rocks.

[Jesus Saves]

54. Talentless?

He's on tour with Bob Dylan right now.

[Ladyhawk]

65. Celebrity status doesn't mean someone is talented.

Merle Haggard has an unattractive, nasally voice. Britney Spears is also talentless, as are most of today's popular "singers." I've talked with people who work with them and some of them can't even match pitch. The equipment used these days can match the "singer's" pitch.

I don't like the country music genre to begin with, but Hank Williams, Jr. and Merle Haggard literally make my skin crawl when they start caterwauling. *shudder* That NFL promo Haggard did made me want to hurl chunks and I nearly had to walk out of a theater that was playing Hank Williams, Jr. before the movie. Terrible, horrible tone quality...blecch!

They love Jerry Lewis in France. Does that make him funny?

Different stroke for different folks, I guess. I just don't like a nasally tone quality.

[GreenArrow]

76. that's fine,

but it says more about your personal taste than Merle's talent. I suppose you'd think Woody Guthrie was untalented too, since he had an "unattractive, nasally voice."

Here's a bit from an excellent Salon article:

"Even more arresting than the band was Haggard's phrasing, which contradicted almost every precedent. Clear-toned, sinuous and shockingly free of twang and vocal affectation, Haggard sang with a sensitivity that bordered on tenderness. He retained Frizzell's vocal artistry but dropped the imitative note-bending melisma, and in his breaking of the line there appeared the unmistakable sound of jazz.

Haggard has long referred to his music as "country jazz," and is the only country musician to have appeared on the cover of Down Beat, the definitive jazz publication. Over the years, he has developed a definition of the term that reflects his nostalgia for a moment in history that preceded genres, when figures like Emmett Miller, Milton Brown and Django Reinhardt seemed to draw out of the air a music that defied classification. "I realized that jazz meant that you could play anything," says Haggard. "It meant that you were a full-fledged musician, that you could play with Louis Armstrong or Johnny Cash ."

(Full article here) http://dir.salon.com/people/bc/2000/11/14/haggard/index.html

As you said, different strokes for different folks.

[Ladyhawk]

80. Yup. I don't like scratchy voices either, usually.

It's just an opinion. Opinions are like assholes...blah blah blah.

The more a person is trained in an area, the more defined their tastes. I've been trained classically in the "Italian" tone quality, which is proven to be the healthiest tone for the body and vocal cords; therefore, it sounds better and it's better for you...at least in my opinion.

Now if my surgery doesn't ruin my voice, I want to do something with it...

[GreenArrow]

88. you are saying Woody Guthrie is talentless?

okay.

[Ladyhawk]

94. No, I'm not.

I have to admit ignorance when it comes to Woody Guthrie. I'm not familiar with his work. Maybe that is odd.

When I was growing up, I lived in a strict, fundamentalist home. We were not allowed to listen to anything but Christian music, so my knowledge of popular music of any kind is somewhat limited. My loss, I know. I've been making up for it a bit.

[GreenArrow]

103. well you probably wouldn't like his voice

He was a folk singer, very influential to Bob Dylan, among others, who sang very simple, unadorned songs, usually dealing with the lives of everyday people, especially during the Dust Bowl years. He makes Merle Haggard sound like Pavarotti, (he and Merle were both "Okies.") You might appreciate some of his themes and topics though. He used to put a sticker on his guitar that said "this machine kills fascists." His best known song is "This Land is Your Land," and here's the "1913 Massacre":

Take a trip with me in 1913,
To Calumet, Michigan, in the copper country.
I will take you to a place called Italian Hall,
Where the miners are having their big Christmas ball.
I will take you in a door and up a high stairs,
Singing and dancing is heard everywhere,
I will let you shake hands with the people you see,
And watch the kids dance around the big Christmas tree.

You ask about work and you ask about pay,
They'll tell you they make less than a dollar a day,
Working the copper claims, risking their lives,
So it's fun to spend Christmas with children and wives.

There's talking and laughing and songs in the air,
And the spirit of Christmas is there everywhere,
Before you know it you're friends with us all,
And you're dancing around and around in the hall.

Well a little girl sits down by the Christmas tree lights,
To play the piano so you gotta keep quiet,
To hear all this fun you would not realize,
That the copper boss' thug men are milling outside.

The copper boss' thugs stuck their heads in the door,
One of them yelled and he screamed, "there's a fire,"
A lady she hollered, "there's no such a thing.
Keep on with your party, there's no such thing."

A few people rushed and it was only a few,
"It's just the thugs and the scabs fooling you,"
A man grabbed his daughter and carried her down,
But the thugs held the door and he could not get out.

And then others followed, a hundred or more,
But most everybody remained on the floor,
The gun thugs they laughed at their murderous joke,
While the children were smothered on the stairs by the door.

Such a terrible sight I never did see,
We carried our children back up to their tree,
The scabs outside still laughed at their spree,
And the children that died there were seventy-three.

The piano played a slow funeral tune,
And the town was lit up by a cold Christmas moon,
The parents they cried and the miners they moaned,
"See what your greed for money has done."

He was a very fascinating American character, was Woody Guthrie, and not an America Basher...even if he was a Socialist.

[GreenArrow]

70. I don't like the sentiments of the song either,

but in no way is Merle Haggard talentless.

Just to show that there's more than one side to Merle, here's a nice quote:

MERLE HAGGARD ON JOHN ASHCROFT, August 25, 2002, Kansas City: "I think we should give John Ashcroft a big hand...(pause)...right in the mouth! . . . The way things are going I'll probably be thrown in jail tomorrow for saying that, so I hope ya'll will bail me out."

[matcom]

26. apparently its ME

:eyes:

caveat: I'll "Bash" all i want (if that is what they want to call it)

I'm fucking FED UP!

[FDU]

27. Great Thoughts!

I must admit some confusion I have seen among my progressive friends, something that has not effected me in the same manner it has them. Being new here, I don't know if it has been something either discussed or noted at this site among my fellow progressives.

This concept of being called "anti-American" or an "American-Basher" by those on the right have really bothered many of my friends. They really took it personally, and I never quite understood it, though I did my best to console them. I don't deny those who are my political opponents the freedom to label me however they wish to do, but I never let it get under my skin, not like I've seen others do, and it pained me to see it let these words bother them.

It would be the same as you having referred to our fellow citizens as being "complacent", with which I agree, and it letting your opinion of them bother them, which I just haven't witnessed our political opponents allowing these things to take place. However, for some reason, there are those of our number who are active in the struggle that are almost ruled by the labels others give them.

I know this was off the subject. I don't have an answer for you. I can only say that the definition of an "American-Basher" is as numerous as the individuals who view others in that light.

FDU

[MsConduct]

28. An America basher is someone who doesn't go with neocon

flow. It's a verbal weapon they use because they don't have a legitimate argument as to why everything bushco has done has turned to sh*t. I've been called a commie, socialist, terrorist supporter and so on and so on.....because I have had the nerve to voice my displeasure with the bush regime. I don't care what they call me, I'll continue to stand up for what I believe is right and bitch and fight against what I believe is wrong. The only thing they have a right to call me is AN AMERICAN!

[DoveTurnedHawk]

29. I Think These Two Paragraphs From the Rules Apply

Do not post messages that could be construed as advocating violence or military defeat against the United States, the U.S. military, US service people, or the people of the United States.

Do not post broad-brush smears against US service people. Do not blame the troops for the mistakes of their officers or their Commander-in-Chief. Show the appropriate level of respect to those individuals who have put their own lives on the line to defend this country.

I would posit that most folks who post messages which run afoul of these two rules are probably "America bashers" of some kind.

Your list, though? No way.

DTH

[RevolutionaryActs]

30. Ask Jesus for the answer.

[Jesus Saves]

31. It means whatever you want it to mean

But for the purposes of the thread you are referring to, it means those that want to just throw it all away.

I know you know exactly what I'm talking about.

[KG]

32. y'know, i really resent insinuations.

don't you?

[matcom]

33. let's get ONE THING straight

"Jesus"

NOBODY here is "throwing it all away"

why the FUCK do you THINK we are all HERE in the FIRST PLACE???

rrrrriiiiiggghhhhtttt

WE are all writing, reading, marching, protesting, calling, etc... cause "WE" are "THROWING IT ALL AWAY" :eyes:

if we all "hated" it so much, we would be doing NOTHING

don't you get it yet?

[Jesus Saves]

39. Let's get this straight

You can try and change it all you want. I do it. H*ll, freepers also try and change the country.

I'm talking about something a little deeper. I'm talking about actually identifying with the principles of our country (the founding ones), and seeing both the good and the bad.

This whole thing has really blown up. But if you go back to the original post that started it all, I clearly say 'few'. And it is to those few that that post was addressed, and on top of that, I thoought Cohen's song had something to say to everyone.

[THUNDER HANDS]

41. wow, jesus looks PISSED in that painting

Or stoned, one or the other. ;)

[RevolutionaryActs]

44. I thought so too

He looks like he's going to jump out and start killing everyone. Well that's the impression I got anyway....

[Ladyhawk]

55. What if God Smoked Cannabis?

If God had long hair
And a goatee
And if his eyes were pretty glazed
If he looked spaced-out,
Would you buy his story,
Would you believe he had an eye infection?

And yeah, yeah, God looks baked
Yeah, yeah, God smells good
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

What if God smoked cannabis?
Hit the bong like some of us?
Drove a tie-dyed micro-bus
And he subscribes to Rolling Stone?

When God made this place
In the beginning
Did he plant any seeds
Or did he put them there
For Adam and Eve
So they'd be hungry
For the apple that the snake
Was always offerin'?

And yeah, yeah, God rolls great
Yeah, yeah, God smells good
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

What if God smoked cannabis?
Do you suppose he had a buzz
When he made the platypus
When he created Earth our home?
Does he like Pearl Jam or the Stones?
And do you think he rolls his own
Up there in heaven on the throne?
And when the saints go marching home
Maybe he sits and smokes a bone.

[CatWoman]

117. nah. He looks "pissed" in this one.

[Goldmund]

57. Few or many, the question still stands

What is an "America Basher"?

[MikeG]

67. The principles this country was "founded on" were slavery and genocide.

[Jesus Saves]

Wrong.

But you're a perfect example of what I speak of: that over simplification towards the negative.

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[walldude]

72. Which identifying principles are those?

The ones where we travel across the ocean, steal the land from the indigenous people then rape and pillage it till there's nothing left but strip malls and Wal-Marts? Or the ones where we take those indigenous people, stick them on "reservations" and tell them that we'll do them a favor and not charge them taxes. Oh, unless, that is, they figure out a way to get back at us (casinos) then we can either tax them or shut them down. Yeah we're real righteous heroes over here....

[DS1]

92. Let's make black people 3/5ths a real person, like the good old times

Keep it real, man :thumbsup:

[catzies]

113. The principles of our country, as you put it, are in the Constitution

and not the Bible. Just making sure you knew that.

That's a myth I'd like to see go away.

Our Founding Fathers' challenge was to keep government out of religion; our challenge is to keep religion out of government.

[xchrom]

36. what an interesting reply.

[KG]

38. think maybe jesus is taking names and making a list?

[CatWoman]

48. Jesus is Santa Claus???

:wow:

[kliljedahl]

51. And counting them twice?

[ultraist]

66. gonna find out if you're naughty or nice

he sees you when you're sleeping
he knows when you're awake
he knows if you've been bad or good
so be good for goodness sakes

[xchrom]

42. silence that dissent!

stop noticing the facts of the glorious history of the american landscape!

nationalists/fascists use these tactics all the damn time -- they are trying to crowd the opposition into a corner.
and demand your behavior become like everyone else's.

and your assertion that jesus wasn't white is true -- just look at how europe and the u.s. has treated the middle east and jews for the last several centuries.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

45. "America bashing" is a term used by people who are still children

emotionally, people who think of the world in terms of "good people" and "bad people." In their underdeveloped little minds, if you don't think of America as being made up of 100% good people, then you're obviously thinking of it as being made up of 100% bad people, right?

:crazy:

[Elidor]

49. One is probably an America-basher if one says, as I do...

That Americans are a bunch of dangerously ignorant pigfuckers. This does not mean they are bad people, you understand: it just means that when they're not giving you the shirts off their backs, they're a bunch of dangerously ignorant pigfuckers. I am sometimes an America-basher, and I own the title proudly. It is my right as an American to bash my country, and frankly this fucking place needs some goddamn bashing right now.

[moof]

112. Dang, who else knows about the pigs ?

[Jacobin]

50. Hey, it's "America, love it or leave it, America, right or wrong"

The chant is not new. It was used against us 'hippies' in the 1960's for suggesting that the Viet Nam debacle wasn't going swimmingly. Hell, even wrote a song about it...."Proud to be an Okie From Muskogee"

[SoCalDem]

52. Dare to think? You are an America-Basher..

Lockstep loyalty is in vogue these days, and if you dare to step aside and ponder the destination of the march, you are suspect.

"Onward Christian Soldiers" is the theme song for our time, and we are all marching off to war. It's not "helpful" when soldiers do not follow orders.

Absolute rulers demand absolute allegiance and people who do not profess their love and obedience to the ruler will be punished..

Remember the guy with the spinning plates.. on Ed Sullivan's show? Everything works fine as long as he's running back and forth spinning those plates..but once the rhythm is broken, the plates start falling, and there's No stopping the outcome.

Our government has lackeys all over the place..spinning those plates.. WE are the ones grabbing the poles, trying to break the rhythm..

If we had a "liberal media" (like the righties love to say we do) we would not be Anti-Ameican..we would be just what we really are.. thinking people who have questions for the government leaders.. Since we do not have that kind of media, we are under the watchful eye of the very people we question..

[H2O Man]

58. From "God Is Red" by Vine Deloria, Jr:

The flexibility of the conception of Jesus appears to be another feature of contemporary Christianity. The Reverend Cecil Maxey of Parker, Colorado, for example, believes that Jesus wore short hair, not long hair, and has preached sermons against long hair. He was asked why the portraits of Jesus show him with long hair. "That's just an artist's conception, and you know how artists are," he replied. The Reverend stated that the first paintings of Jesus were done "hundreds of years" after his death, and he is convinced that Jesus had short hair. The Reverend, in charge of the First Baptist Church, is installing swimming pools, tennis courts, and a miniture golf course to provide an "opportunity to witness."

It is very unfortunate that the Reverend Maxey has discredited the portraits of Jesus, for that raises a very serious problem for the people of Jerusalem. The Rockefeller Museum there has a skeleton whose anklebone has a steel nail driven through it. The relic was discovered in 1969, but its existence was kept secret until 1971. The relic is called the Yechochanan bone, because it was found in a coffin with that inscription on it. When the discvery became known, scholars from around the world wrote to ask if the skeleton was that of Jesus. The Jerusalem scholars, on the basis of anthropologist Nico Haas' report of his findings on the structure of the skull, have determined that the skeleton is not that of Jesus. The skull, according to Haas, bore no resemblance to "Christ as we know him from portraits." Perhaps the anthropologist should join Pastor Maxey's congregation.

-- from pages 238-239 of "God Is Red."

I note that this should clear up all questions raised by Will Pitt. Keep in mind how long Will's hair appears in portraits.

[tnlefty]

59. I would honestly like a definition of what bashing is.

I'm not being flippant.

If one mentions the truth about Bush** and his lying, foreign policy mistakes or the TRUTH about anything that he has done the rwingers just state that it's bush**-bashing.

During the primary season and beyond if someone states not liking a particular statement or policy of a Democrat it was/is bashing (insert candidate's name or current office holder here).

If one disagrees with the policy of the government of Israel it's bashing or anti-semitic.

I don't particularly like Harold Ford, Jr. and I'm much more interested in learning more about the woman who is running against him for a senate seat in '06, Rosalind Kurita. Stating that I don't like Ford's past actions and what he does now will probably be considered as bashing by some. I just want something/someone better.

And yeah, sometimes I just want my country's government and citizens to aspire to greater and better things.

So what is bashing?

[Sparkle]

60. "By the way, Jesus wasn't white. Just FYI."

I'm sure some folks here will disagree with that. In fact, some of my family think he's white...with all the brainwashing and all.

[Left Is Write]

99. And blue-eyed, too?

[Columbia]

61. Someone who blames America for everything

And gives it credit for nothing.

[Goldmund]

64. There is no such person who is an American.

[Columbia]

71. None?

I highly doubt that.

[Goldmund]

73. None.

I dare you to, even hypothetically, outline a thought spoken by a mentally sane American that could possibly be deemed "anti-American".

[Columbia]

78. Depends of your definition of sane

If you pre-emptively define it out of the range of my definition of "America-basher" then what more recourse is there to argue it?

[Goldmund]

83. OK, fair enough. I'll define "sane" in this context for you:

One who does not hate him/herself and everything about their lives.

[Columbia]

89. Ok

One who does not hate him/herself and everything about their lives and blames everything bad that happens in the world on America and gives it credit for nothing good.

[Goldmund]

93. Contradiction in terms.

Everything that they love about their lives comes from that same America, including themselves.

What America "does in the world" is a function of policies of American governments and corporations.

[Columbia]

95. There you go again

Useless to discuss this with you if you continue to pre-define the terms to suit your own argument.

[Goldmund]

97. I thought that's what YOU were doing.

I'm not pre-defining anything. I understand the term "America" with as few definitions as possible tagged onto it. I am America. My street is America. The Smokey Mountains in America. Bush is America. Democratic Underground is America. You are America. Hollywood is America.

You, on the other hand, are pre-defining America to mean the set of manifestations of American governments and corporations to the geopolitical and geocultural balance. Are you not? Otherwise, how could you say that thinking that "America only does negative things in the world" can be construed as "hating America"?

[Columbia]

101. I never defined America

I think you are confusing my post with what the original thread starter said. I made no such connection.

[Goldmund]

107. The original thread-starter???

I see no such definition in that post.

You said: "America-Basher is Someone who blames America for everything and gives it credit for nothing."

Though some people carelessly use the word "America" to mean "American policies", I don't see why you have to bite that bait.

If you think that there is such a thing as "America-basher", then consequently, you must think that there is a definition of "America".

I'm dying to hear it.

[Columbia]

111. You name it

Culture, corporations, politics, history, government, whatever you want.

[Jesus Saves]

85. You are right in that definition

All the 'self-righteous' BSers know exactly what you are talking about.

These types over-simply our history to paint it all negative. They have a black and white view of the world that is similar in practice to that of a fundy right wing Christian.

[Goldmund]

62. An "America Basher" as a construct can only exist...

...under the assumption that a certain ideology is intrinsic to America -- unless that "America-Basher" is not an American, or they hate themselves and most everything about their lives. That goes by definition. Something can be "anti-X" only if it contradicts that X; X is contradictable only if it's an ideology.

If there is one idea intrinsic to America, it is that no ideology is intrinsic to America.

Therefore, the one thing that can be called "anti-American" is labeling others' ideologies "anti-American", unless those ideologies include stifling other ideologies.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

63. Try looking at this thread

Would the world have been better off without America?

And the number of "Yes" responses.

If you can't grasp the concept of America Bashing after that, then I doubt you'll ever get it.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[Goldmund]

68. That's still not America-bashing.

Without America, most things that we now call "American" would be called something else. Those who responded "yes" in that thread think that on balance, more good things about America would exist, in that parallel world without America, than the bad would not. I don't agree with them; I tend to believe that without America, at this point in the evolution of Humanity, another force would play the same role of a global Empire -- and that force would likely not be more benign than the present-day America.

Responding "yes" to that thread clearly does not imply a wish that America would be destroyed, as I think you're suggesting.

[Sparkle]

84. Just wanted to tell you that you did a great job on your

JG blog.

[Goldmund]

86. thank you!

[H2O Man]

90. I think that there is some

and it can be found on the left and on the right. I think there may be more of a tendency for younger adults to see things in black and white terms, and that thread did have a few things that are what many people define as "America bashing."

The more important question is: is this a problem? Something to punish people for? Is it a threat to the nation?

It's not a huge problem. We should be patient with the snotty-nosed brats that see America as a projection of their parents and high school administration. And it's no threat at all.

There was a quote by LBJ years ago in LIFE magazine. A reporter was trying to get him to react harshly to hippies. LBJ said something to the effect that democracy depends upon dissent to survive, and even when the winds of dissent blow hard and harshly, true fans of democracy recognize it as a good thing.

There was a time in my life that I thought LBJ and Nixon were both 100% evil. I'm old enough now that I can look back and see they both were a combination of good and bad. Strangely, Nixon actually respected the anti-war youth more than he did a large segment of "adults."

When my 11 year old asks me if Bush knows that what he is doing is sinful and evil, I explain that his mind is unhealthy and unbalanced, and that he believes he is doing the right thing. Cheney, on the other hand, is consciously evil. And both Bush and Cheney pose a far greater threat to democracy than youth who may bash America.

[Ladyhawk]

69. That question is an exercise in futility.

Who knows the answer? There's no way to tell what would have happened had America never existed. On one hand, America might not have led the way to representative government. On the other, the Native Americans might not have been nearly exterminated. You could stack up arguments on both sides until the cows came home.

History might have progressed very, very differently, so much so that we couldn't even bring the usual arguments into play.

It's a dumb question, IMO.

[Dirk39]

74. A possible explanation

Hello from Germany,
maybe there's a simple historical reason for this: the american "patriotism" isn't founded on race, blood and soil like the european nationalism - as it unfortunately still is for example in the german postwar constitution. The U.S. nationalism is founded on values. Doesn't it make sense that in every political conflict the opponents will attack one another for being "unamerican" or "America-Bashers" or to critizise the government will somehow be identified with attacking "America" ?

If I'm German or Italian because of my "blood" or my "origin", Nationalists or Rightwingers will attack me for being Anti-Italian or Anti-German or a traitor, because I'm supporting "strange elements" or selling the country out to immigrants; but people will hardly call me a German-Basher, if I critizise the government or propose a different kind of government.

I cannot contribute much to the discussion, but it seems to me that the existence of such a "battlefield" and the heated dispute is related somehow to one of the view reasons that let me still admire the USA (it's values, not it's government:-).

Dirk

[Goldmund]

82. An excellent fucking point.

I was too born and raised (until the age of 17) in Europe and know exactly what you're talking about. Nobody in America has ever considered me non-American because of that fact. And there's no way that could happen in any European country.

However, what are those "values" that the concept of American patriotism is based on? Freedom and liberty. Right-wingers understand those two words as empty shells that they use to attach to any ideology or cause du-jour they deem convenient. But, to the contrary: those values are simply inconsistent with an attachment of ANY OTHER ideologies to American patriotism. Those values suggest: the fundamental American value is the freedom of ideology; the only ideology inherent to American patriotism is that American patriotism does not include any other ideology.

[hiley]

75. Will

I am going to just respond without reading any of the thread (yet) because of course, I have an opinion on it !

"First to say something about "By the way, Jesus wasn't white."

Fact is your are right except we are not supposed to know that.
Have you not seen the standard picture ?

"Is one an 'America-Basher' if one criticizes the supremacy of the corporate overmind?"

No their not
however in
George's world well in his Kingdom YES
and this is WAlMART's domain, didn't you know that ?


"Is one an 'America-Basher' if one attacks the war in Iraq?"

NO Hell no

but again it is the Regime of George W so YES of course you have to be skum you America Hater !


"Is one an 'America-Basher' if one posits that the last 50 years of American foreign policy has played a supreme role in the development of international terrorism?"

Will, have you not learned anything ? America is special I mean really God Bless America which means FUCK everybody Else !

"Is one an 'America-Basher' if one criticizes the complacency of the average American, a complacency that has been pruposefully ground into much of the populace by an abundance of food, a lack of discourse, and an anemic news media?"


What ? you want Americans to do something besides drink beer and watch sports and follow celebrities lives ?
They don't want to read, learn, or care about others .

Get with the program Will Pitt you are not supposed to use that mind of yours ! FOX, Talking Heads and the Neo-Cons will do it for you .

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[peacetalksforall]

91. Those who need to feel superior to all the people in the world bash

we who feel that we are just one of many countries. I, personally, feel that we whose ancestors emigrated from Europe got lucky. We used European tactics to overcome the natives than proceeded to succeed because of drive, opportunity, slavery, and serfdom (child labor, sublimation of women, lack of rights) and a lot of guns and powder. Some were visionary and set the stage for inventions and many spin-offs of business. We immediately started to dominate all the lesser developed countries of the world. At the same time, a strong work ethic and the grace of many successes propelled other people to emigrate and the combination of workers and people who wanted to work made the country great when great things happened to us - mostly in technology. Good neighbors and two grand oceans protected us.

A refusal to honor other citizenships, cultures, religions, and languages contribute to the feelings of superiority.

I will never bash the country...I will only bash people who act against other people in the world in the belief that they are inferior. The country has been evolving progressively in a more christian-native-judeo-poly way through the good works of our predecessors. I will bash those who take us backward be it economic, alienation, slavery, exploitation or by lies, theft, and destruction.
I will bash those who are selling us to corporations.

[ultraist]

110. "Those who need to feel superior to all "

Isn't that a psychiatric diagnosis: the "Jesus complex" (Pathological grandiosity to SAVE the world).

[meganmonkey]

98. Someone with bees in ther head?

:shrug:

[catzies]

114. Ha HA! The bees are back!

Jesus Bees!

[meganmonkey]

115. BUUUZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.....

[Left Is Write]

100. If one voices dissent against the government

and/or policies of this country, does not believe we have any business waging war in Iraq, and refuses to go along with rote "patriotism," then one is clearly "anti-American."

[SarahB]

104. Some who isn't...

1. A Nationalist.
2. A group-thought drone.

[lonestarnot]

116. Anyone who can think...n/t

[Moderator]

120. Locking

Calling out, and continuing a flame war