"You know there are some questions about Terri Schiavo's husband...

[underpants]

and what happened that night"

This must be one of the new talking points as I heard it twice from the weekend hosts on Fox News and two of the four callers said basically that.

-Sorry for yet another Schiavo thread but there is a reason for it-

On Friday I posted that Michael Schiavo (her husband) was a "slimeball" and "scum". I must have fallen prey to the MSM on that because I was basing it on what I thought I knew about him:
-He MAY have been cheating on her
-He MAY have already left her and she was trying to get him back

I have no idea where I got those from.

I have also noticed that old photographs of Terri Schiavo are all over the news channels. I think they are trying to put a living loving joyous face on this story but it really strikes me as a LAci Peterson (THAT photo) element at work.

So does anyone know what Michael's story is? What was the status of their relationship?

I read a transcript of him on Larry King in which he says he was awoken at 4:30 AM to find her slumped against a wall having suffered a heart attack. I don't know where the other "questionable" parts came in, is there anything to any of that or are they (Fox especially) just raising and not answering questions in order to work that into the story?

[molly]

1. There were a couple of threads last nite

that said she had multiple old wounds - looked like from abuse. The only other thing I heard is that he worked at McDonalds when they got married.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3302677#3303042

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ninga]

5. Hello Bill, welcome to DU!!!!!!!!

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Catchawave]

32. Tombstoned? -nt

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

27. Welcome to DU Bill!

:hi:

[underpants]

12. Thanks but that doesn't really resolve it for me

But I am not sure that everyone in this case hasn't had an agenda from the very beginning.

If he did try to strangle her (one assertion that has been made) there would have been some signs of that, wouldn't there have been?

[Riding this Donkey]

28. There was, bone scans, terry had broken bones in her neck.

Sometimes you really do have to back up, in or to move forward. We are a very old blog (SyndicatedNews was established in 1974). Since then, we've published thousands of personal opinions written by anyone that wanted to be published if they had a well written report on just about anything. One of the longest running stories on SyndicatedNews has been that of the Terri Schiavo saga. And not because I was sympathetic, but because I was fascinated by her husband's long running fight to pull her plug and the equally fierce fight put up by her parents and family to keep her alive.




The Terri Schiavo story in particular, originally caught my attention, when many media and medical professionals whom I had worked with on other stories, soon changed their position once they pored over the mountain of published media reports and Terri's medical records. Not some of her medical records - all of them. It's even happened to me. After years of tongue-in-cheek jokes, I've changed my mind.

What's annoying about this case now? The bone scans. I can't get past the bone scans and no matter what I read or see on this case, I keep coming back to them. Former chief medical examiner for the city of New York, Dr. Michael Baden has written several books on forensic pathology. This man knows his craft. On the Terri Schiavo case, in 1991, he told FOX's Greta Van Susteren that, "It is extremely rare for a 20-year-old to have a cardiac arrest from low potassium who has no other diseases . . . which she doesn't have. . . . The reason that she's in the state she's in is because there was a period of time, maybe five or eight minutes, when not enough oxygen was going to her brain. That can happen because the heart stops for five or eight minutes, but she had a healthy heart from what we can see." In summary, Baden's report states:

a) Terri’s injuries are not consistent with a heart attack; no cardiac evidence to support it. b) Extremely rare for potassium imbalance on woman her age and in her good health. c) Injuries are consistent with severe trauma possibly caused by a beating. d) The injuries in medical records warrant an immediate investigation.

The bone scan was prepared by Dr. W. Campbell Walker. The report was a trauma evaluation detailing broken bones and other bones still in various stages of healing. One serious suspected head bruise alarmed the doctor to the point where he wrote he suspected "closed head injury." and that, "This patient has a history of trauma. The presumption is that the other multiple areas of trauma also relate to previous trauma." Walker listed injuries to the ribs, thoracic vertebrae, both sacroiliac joints, both ankles and both knees."


here the link

http://www.syndicatednews.net /

[underpants]

29. Eh I trust this a whole lot more-no offense

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html

[mondo joe]

31. And there were MULTIPLE radiologists who found NO injury in her

xray.

Read the transcripts.

[Riding this Donkey]

87. supply a link please......and besides that, there are different

professionals from boths sides disagreeing on almost every issue in this case.

Again, you believe what you want and I will believe what I want.


Just because you, Mondo Joe, believe something does not mean that I have too.

[mondo joe]

112. No, there are MULTIPLE radiologists who found no evidence of

wrong doing, and even DR Walker NEVER said he thought there was wrong doing.

http://www.hospicepatients.org/dr-walker-t-schiavo-bone-scan-deposition.txt

[ebayfool]

106. Baden has his detractors, as well. Highly paid expert witness for O.J. etc

I see other sources all overthe place that disagree w/some of his statements about bulemia & the heart, bones, etc.
===========
http://www.courttv.com/trials/ojsimpson/weekly/29.html
snip/
On cross-examination prosecutor Brian Kelberg had Dr. Baden reveal that he has billed the defense around $100,000 for his services and may bill another $65,000 for additional hours spent on the case. The doctor also told the court that he never published any article in the areas that he was testifying about and that his primary area of expertise is death by drug abuse.
==========
US Dept of Health & Human Services
http://www.4woman.gov/faq/Easyread/buldiagram.htm

snip/
How Bulimia affects your body

Heart

Irregular heart beat,
heart muscle weakened,
heart failure,
low pulse and blood pressure

Body Fluids

dehydration,
low potassium,
magnesium and
sodium
===========
http://www.annecollins.com/diet-news/anorexia-bulimia-bingeing.htm
Eating Disorders & Bone Fractures

snip/
Previous studies have found that people with eating disorders such as anorexia or bulimia can suffer from weakened bones because of poor nutrition. Experts say that this can increase the risk of osteoporosis and fracture.
===========
http://www.prevention.com/article/0,5778,s1-1-65-80-2276-1,00.html
Broken bones may be a tip-off that a patient has anorexia or bulimia

snip/
Researchers investigated fracture risk among 4,385 patients with anorexia nervosa, bulimia, or eating disorders not otherwise specified (EDNOS). Fracture risk was elevated for 10 years after diagnosis of anorexia. In patients with bulimia, fracture risk was increased for up to 10 years before diagnosis but returned to normal within a year of diagnosis. In patients with EDNOS, the risk of fracture was increased before and after diagnosis.

[mondo joe]

115. And Baden fails to link potassium deficiency with severe bulimia

What a stooge!

[Tess49]

154. Remember Karen Carpenter?

Young. Bulimic, electrolyte imbalance, heart attack. Dead.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

155. Two words: Karen Carpenter.

b) Extremely rare for potassium imbalance on woman her age and in her good health.

Being bulemic is NOT "in good health"

[ScreamingMeemie]

170. Hello, from a 34 year old woman with a common potassium imbalance

due to white blood cell isssues who must go in every other week to get her potassium checked. :hi:

[mordarlar]

181. Another important point is that Jackie Rhodes, a friend of Terri's,

testified that the day in question, she offered to have Terri come home with her. Apparently many claim Michael would track Terri's odometer and things like this. The day of the injury there was concern because Michael had been upset over money Terry spent getting her hair done. Jackie and others, including Terri's brother and sister, claim she had spoken of seeking a divorce.

Michael dated a woman, after Terri's collapse, who has also made claims that he was potentially dangerous. The following is from her deposition.

EXCERPTS FROM CYNTHIA SHOOK MAY 8, 2001 DEPOSITION
>>>"He came on the floor looking for me several times. I felt it was out of character for him to get a job as an orderly at the hospital That was concerning to me. When he would come up to the floor looking for her she was not scared the first time but later was scared.

In town I would look up when I was driving…not at my work- she would look up in the rear view mirror and there would be Michael Schiavo. I would look up and he would be behind me in traffic. It continued for several months after he didn’t work at the hospital. She would change lanes, try to make a turn and he would do the same. He did this about ten times.

One time he was behind me in traffic he got next to me in a two-lane going the same way, and he changed lanes basically right on top of where I was at, and I had to swerve not to be hit. I had to swerve off the road. Michael ran me off the road. I considered it as stalking, dangerous and guessed potentially life threatening."<<<

The following is the report of the brain scan by Dr. Walker.



Michael sought a protection order to try and block this information.


When this was introduced in court Judge Greer dismissed it saying...
"The court concludes that while it might be interesting to pursue the issue of trauma as it may have occurred almost 12 years ago, that has nothing to do with Theresa Marie Schiavo in 2002,"

Rather than ordering a further investigation Judge Greer dismissed the evidence.

12 years before 2002 would take us to 1990 which is when she collapsed. Yet apparently from the Judges quote he did not feel issues surrounding her collapse RELEVANT.


Interesting points are raised about exactly what happened the night Terri collapsed. Michael himself has changed the accounting of events in interviews. At times he claims he found her gurggling with her arms to her neck and grabbed her up into his arms. Yet when her brother arrived he states she was still laying face down on the floor gurggeling with her hands clasped at her neck. His account has, as far as i know, NOT changed. Early medical reports mention a suspiciously rigid neck.

Michael claimed he called Terri's brother and then emergency services. Both Terri's brother and father insist that Michael called Terri's FATHER and it was her father who called emergency.

A former co-worker of Michael's, Capone signed an affidavit on May 9, 2001, stating "Michael confided in me all the time about Terri ... He said to me many times that he had no idea what her wishes were."

According to a sworn testimony of nurse Carla Sauer Iyer, Michael had said things like... "Has she died yet?" "When is that bitch gonna die?" and "Can’t anything be done to accelerate her death—won’t she ever die?"

Diane Meyer, a childhood friend of Terri's, testified that Terri once lost her temper after Meyer made a joke about Karen Quinlan. She says Terri stated that she felt was was happening in that case was wrong. She supposedly asked, "How did they know she would want this?"

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

183. But she had OTHER diseases

Bulemia:
On the Terri Schiavo case, in 1991, he told FOX's Greta Van Susteren that, "It is extremely rare for a 20-year-old to have a cardiac arrest from low potassium who has no other diseases

The same thing to cause her heart condition caused Karen Carpenter's death

[Horse with no Name]

184. too funny

I went in to a hospital when I was in my mid twenties for a minor surgical procedure.
Doc came in and said they would be starting my IV's in the operating room, hang tight and we would be going down shortly.
Of course I had blood work done that same morning as per preoperative routine.
Next thing I know, the door bursts open, about 4 nurses run in, grabbing my arm starting IV's, fluids being hung, I get an EKG thrown on my chest that was replaced by a monitor, someone starts drawing labs...the next thing I knew there was a cardiology consult and a nephrology consult.
The problem?
My pottasium was critically low--low to the point of being incompatible with life and I felt just fine. I didn't have my surgery and I spent 2 days in ICU to get my pottasium up to a normal level, then spent the next 6 months having blood drawn twice a week while they regulated my medication to keep my pottasium at a normal level.
It took over a year to diagnose the cause of the hypokalemia.
I was told the worst thing about it was the fact that I had no symptoms that I reported, although I did have veryyyy frequent leg cramps and charly horses--which is a symptom of it.
Just for the record--I am exactly 11 months older than Terri Schiavo so that blows this theory completely out of the water.
By the way--are you aware that pottasium regulates your heart function?
Might be interesting for you to research that little tidbit.

[Princess Turandot]

191. Do you think that Dr. Baden, who has become a talking head..

knows more about this case than the MDs who treated her in the ED?
Those docs are trained to handle trauma, and often are the people to alert the police to suspected abuse or homicides.Strangulation or smothering leaves signs. Cardiac resuscitation often breaks bones more often than one imagines. Frankly, I trust the doctors who treated the actual person far more than doctors with an agenda looking at records years later. Baden may hold some respect in court but on tv, he's going to say the most controversial thing that he can, as long as it has any chance of being true: he wouldn't be on so many talk shows if he provided no juice.

Additionally, while I am no physician, I do know that there is a condition called 'Sudden Adult Death Syndrome' in which an otherwise healthy adult suffers a heart stoppage, usually I believe from an electrolyte imbalance. A friend's boyfriend collapsed during a basketball game with friends; he was only 40 years old in good health who was left significantly brain damaged due to a loss of oxygen. Whether or not it was common for a reduction in potassium to cause her heart to stop it certainly is possible.

I also had the impression that the xrays you refer to were taken long after she fell ill. At that point, she had received a variety of therapies and would also have been subjected to physical therapy while in the hospital in the first years, as her husband kept seeking treatment for her. An unconcious individual needs their muscle exercised constantly by therapists so they do not atrophy, if any hope of recovery exists. Given her original state and the progressive worsening of her condition, I don't think there is any way to know when such fractures may have occurred. They could have happened during prescribed therapy.

But again, in the end, I go back to the original doctors. I think it's outrageous to assume based on opinions rendered years later that they would not have been on the look-out for signs of abuse. Unlike your local family MD, that is part of an ED doc's job, and they do it.

[LiberalFighter]

148. In the malpractice suit the doctors had every opportunity to

challenge the cause of Terri's condition.

They did not challenge based on those "injuries".

[ultraist]

161. excellent point!

If they could have gotten out of paying that settlement by proving her injuries were the fault of her husband, they would have. They had high dollar attorneys fighting that suit and still lost.

All of these claims of abuse have been debunked in the courts. 16 courts and he still maintains legal guardianship. Enough is enough.

[Ninga]

3. Yikes! ! I simply cannot understand how people allow themselves

to get OFF TRACK!!

She had bulimia. She had a major heart attack after throwing up.

She ended up like a stalk of celery. End of STORY!!

It matters NOT one whit any other FACTS....about who was zooming who.

She had bulimia. She had a major heart attack after throwing up.

She ended up like a stalk of celery. And now the Congress wants to

"LET TERRI LIVE".......

[Bill Mahar]

4. Kick

This is an important detail. I feel that the family should decide what happens.

[liberal N proud]

11. Ah but who is the family?

It now appears that it is the entire right wing mass.
But is the family her husband or does his opinion not count, they married and became each others partners. Or do her parents have say over her legal partner?
This is not something we need congress spending our tax dollars on!

This is one of the biggest outrages congress has ever pulled.
Congress called to special session for one woman and we wrote the environment off in a two hour debate.
Is that a prime example of just how stupid politics in this country are now?

:mad:

Another thing that bits my butt: The Christian Right all proclaim how glorious it will be to get to heaven but yet they want to keep this woman from getting there. What goes?

[Catchawave]

23. Another thought.......

Lib wrote:
"Another thing that bits my butt: The Christian Right all proclaim how glorious it will be to get to heaven but yet they want to keep this woman from getting there. What goes?"

They also have no problem with "living in sin" ? Children out of wedlock? Could acceptance of gay marriage be next!!!!! ????? This whole story reeks of hypocrisy. :crazy:

[underpants]

26. Actually this could be the watershed moment in the RW-Christian connection

This is my thread from Friday. Hannity got an earful from slimeball Randall Terry and some other caller.

Basically both said it was time to collect for all the RW Christians's work in the 80's and for DELIVERY Bush a win in 2004. They don't want talk they don't want rhetoric they don't want to hear "we tried" it is black and white she lives or you lose their support.

It was something to behold.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3295309

[gnofg]

7. History

of their relationship at this point is probably tainted. However in my opinion there is something odd about his behavior or something doesn't ring true.. He has moved on with his life. Most people would defer their hold on their "former" wife to the parents. The love in marriage is nowhere near as strong as love of parent to child. I believe what the congress and the repubs are doing is wrong. I believe in Kevorkian.

His denial of letting the parents see Terry for 2 years is cruel. How would it hurt him to give the caretaking over to the parents. As a parent and a person who is liberal I find his behavior to not ring true. Similar to Scott Peterson.

[Ninga]

10. OH MY GOSH....BASTA.......ENOUGH, ENOUGH!!!!!!

THE WOMAN IS B R A I N D E A D !!!!!!!

She was a bulimic.....she had a major heart attack....her cortex turned to liquid.

The Guardian ad litum appointed to her case testified the woman
is Brain Dead, 5 doctors (facing law suits if wrong)diagnosed she is
BRAIN DEAD.

There is nothing else to consider. Period. End of Story.

[Bouncy Ball]

38. Hey gnofg

no thanks on your willingness to push a spouse aside in this case.

The love my husband has for me is what matters, because HE IS MY NEXT OF KIN, NOT MY PARENTS.

[Politicub]

71. Yes, the parents are positively brimming with Chistian love

How loving they will be to keep her a vegetable for 15 more years. So what she doesn't have a brain stem. A Chick tract will take the place of that.

These parents clearly are awash with the sweet smell of Jesus.

:puke:

[Ms Chicklet]

156. I'm out of sympathy for the Schindlers

They strike me as religion-addled crackpots who act like eight-year-olds sticking their fingers in their ears and shrieking "LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU" when confronted with the simple truth that when it comes to Terri, there's no there there.

Instead of facing the reality and grieving, they take their temper tantrum over not getting their way to the courts and the media. They whore themselves - and the daughter they claim to love so much - out to any right-wing nut job that can get them in front of the cameras. They have scumbags like the anti-choice poo-flinging monkey Randall Terry acting as their spokesman and smearing Michael Schiavo while they milk their 15 minutes for everything it's worth. All they while, they are sanctimoniously wallowing in their suffering, believing their little jihad against Michael Schiavo and anyone who doesn't buy their delusions makes them better than everyone else in the eyes of God.

[molly]

8. I found this

http://www.crisismagazine.com/january2004/johansen.htm

snip...

Questionable Medical Evidence
Doctors testifying on behalf of Michael Schiavo say that Terri is in a persistent vegetative state (PVS), with no hope of recovery. A patient in a PVS is unaware of himself or his environment and does not respond to the world around him. He continues breathing on his own, maintains a stable heart rate, and may even have eye movements that mimic normal sleep. However, he has, for all intents and purposes, no higher brain functions that we would associate with “consciousness.” Judge Greer’s order to remove Terri’s feeding tube was based largely on his finding that no course of treatment could improve her “quality of life” and that she had no function in her cerebral cortex.

snip...

Even more powerful is the testimony of the numerous doctors who emphatically deny that Terri is in a PVS. The most convincing medical testimony comes from Dr. William Hammesfahr, a neurologist specializing in the treatment of brain injuries, who has spent approximately twelve hours examining Terri. At the October 24 press conference, Hammesfahr explained that Terri is able to respond to commands: She can raise and lower her limbs, although her range of motion is limited by severe muscular contractures from a lack of physical therapy for more than a decade. Doctors testifying for Michael Schiavo have dismissed such responses as reflexes. But what is most telling is Hammesfahr’s description of Terri’s response to a standard strength test: In this test he asked Terri to lift up her leg while he pressed down on it with his hand. He instructed her to keep lifting it in spite of his pressure. Hammesfahr explained how he could feel Terri pressing up against his hand with the same degree of force with which he was pressing down, so as to keep her leg in the same relative position. Such a response, Hammesfahr explained, is simply not reducible to a “reflex.”

[underpants]

14. That's interesting-I had read that none of the family's "Dr.s" saw her

They only saw videotapes of her and made their assessments from that. In fact I had read that none of the three "Dr.s" the familly often cited were actually medical doctors-one was a linguist and one was a psychologist.

I read that on Rude Pundit but there were links to back up those stories.

[molly]

16. Further down in that article....

A Husband With an Agenda
The immediate cause of Terri’s brain damage was cardiac arrest, which caused her brain to be deprived of oxygen for more than five minutes. In January 1993, Michael Schiavo won a malpractice award of $1.6 million from the hospital that treated Terri. He was also personally awarded $600,000 for loss of consortium. In his testimony, Michael spoke of his love for his wife and his intentions to honor his wedding vows for the rest of his life and to use the award money for Terri’s care and rehabilitation. Indeed, Michael repeatedly assured Bob and Mary Schindler that he would seek rehabilitation therapy for Terri once he had obtained a settlement.

A month after Michael received the money, the Schindlers approached their son-in-law to remind him of his promise. This led to a heated argument, with Bob and Michael yelling in the hall outside Terri’s room. Michael stormed off and vowed that he was going to see his lawyer and that Bob and Mary would “never see daughter again.

A month after this incident, the Schindlers were informed that Michael had cut off their access to Terri’s medical information. As her husband, Michael was granted guardianship over Terri and had the legal authority to issue the order, which remains in place to this day. Terri’s doctors and nurses were not to discuss her medical condition with the Schindlers. Bob and Mary later learned that shortly after, Michael gave a “Do Not Resuscitate” order for Terri, even though she was in no danger of death.

[underpants]

20. DU'er John8503 provided the following link in another thread

This one attorney's assessment of known facts (mostly the legal process) and seems to be quite definitive to me.

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html

[proud2BlibKansan]

168. He DID take her for therapy

He took her to California. There was nothing they could do. So he brought her back home to Florida.

READ THE FACTS

[DavidFL]

129. Crisis Magazine...

Is a rightwing publication. I wouldn't exactly expect an unbiased take on this issue from it.

It's published by the Morley Publishing Group, which has received money from the Lynne & Harry Bradley Foundation, the Carthage Foundation (one of Scaife's organizations), and the John M. Olin Foundation
http://www.mediatransparency.org/search_results/info_on_any_recipient.php?recipientID=235

Crisis has been funded by the Lynne & Harry Bradley Foundation: http://www.mediatransparency.org/search_results/comment_string_search_results.php?Message=Crisis+Magazine

A good indicator of its political orientation is who sits on its board:

Richard V. Allen: member of the Defense Policy Board, PNAC signatory, senior fellow at the Hoover Institution
http://rightweb.irc-online.org/ind/allen/allen.php

William J. Bennett: Self-explanatory. PNAC signatory, neocon and chronic gambler.

Daniel L. Casey: Is a member of the American Conservative Union that fought for Robert Bork becoming a Supreme Court justice.

Ninth Justice is the story of a vigorous band of underfunded, determined, "movement" conservative activists who labored tirelessly for the U.S. Senate's confirmation of Judge Robert H. Bork after President Ronald Reagan nominated him to the Supreme Court in July 1987. It chronicles the organizational efforts primarily of Patrick B. McGuigan (Coalitions for America) and Daniel L. Casey (American Conservative Union)-both intensely Republican, devout Catholics, ardent admirers of the nominee-who understood from the first moment of the battle that they were involved in the most significant political confrontation of their lives.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?isbn=0942522176&itm=4

Edwin J. Feulner Jr.: President of the Heritage Foundation and a columnist for Townhall.com. Served on the executive committee of Reagan's transition team and the board of the very rightwing Council for National Policy.
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Edwin_J._Feulner

Alexander M. Haig: Reagan's Sec. of State and Nixon's Chief of Staff and a member of Henry Kissinger's NSC staff before that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_M._Haig,_Jr.

Paul Johnson: British historian. One of his books Enemies of Society, is his attack on labor unions as "left-wing fascists."
You can find some choice quotes of his here:
http://www.conservativeforum.org/authquot.asp?ID=855

Eugene McCarthy: Found info about a Eugene McCarthy, a senator from Minnesota and one time Democratic presidential candidate, but not sure it's the same person.

William McGurn: The Wall Street Journal's chief editorial writer and member of its editorial board, which is basically a cesspool of neocons. He was apparently supposed to take over as Bush's speechwriter.
http://www.bluelemur.com/index.php?p=555

Peggy Noonan: self-explanatory.

Vin Weber: PNAC signatory, chair of the National Endowment for Democracy. Co-founded "Empower America" with Jack Kemp and Jeanne Kirkpatrick.
http://rightweb.irc-online.org/ind/weber/weber.php


Paul Weyrich: One of the heavy hitters in the rightwing.

According to Media Transparency: "Weyrich, a member of the extreme Catholic right and a professed admirer of the pro-Nazi demagogue Father Coughlin, has founded or cofounded numerous right-wing organizations, including the Moral Majority. The Weyrich juggernaut played a decisive role in the ascendancy of Newt Gingrich and the right-wing Republicans of the 104th Congress. Among its top ten 'Censored News stories of 1994,' Project Censored cites the press's lack of coverage of the political machinations of Weyrich's Council for National Policy, a secretive high-level strategy-formulating organization whose membership is a Who's Who of the far right. Admitting that he and his colleagues are not conservatives in the traditional sense, he has described the New Right as 'radicals who want to change the existing power structure.' Weyrich was one of the earliest commentators to advance the idea that the United States is engulfed in a cultural civil war."

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/ind/weyrich/weyrich.php
http://www.mediatransparency.org/people/weyrich.htm

James Q. Wilson: member of Bush's council on bioethics, a writer for the American Enterprise Institute, director of the RAND Corp., and one of Leo Strauss' students at the U. of Chicago.
http://www.politicalfriendster.com/showPerson.php?id=1480&name=James-Q-Wilson

[underpants]

134. Excellent research-Lynne & Harry Bradley Foundation=Four Sisters

http://www.globalpolicy.org/finance/docs/buymvmnt.htm

[VOX]

189. **Ace** research, DavidFL!!!

Thanks so much for posting this.

[msanthrope]

162. Molly, did you bother to read the actual evidence about this therapy?

Here is what the court had to say about "Dr. William Hammesfahr" and the snake oil that coincidentially, after all, he is selling.....

I mean, not that reality should intrude upon this discussion, but the court did review the snake oil claims......


"Dr. Hammesfahr feels his vasodilatation therapy will have a positive affect on Terry Schiavo. Drs. Greer, Bambakidis and Cranford do not feel it will have such an affect. It is clear that this therapy is not recognized in the medical community. Dr. Hammesfahr operates his clinic on a cash basis in advance which made the discussion regarding Medicare eligibility quite irrelevant. A lot of the time also was spent regarding his nominations for a Nobel Prize. While he certainly is a self-promoter and should have had for the court's review a copy of the letter from the Nobel committee in Stockholm, Sweden, the truth of the matter is that he is probably the only person involved in these proceedings who had a United States Congressman recommend him for such an award. Whether the committee "accepted" the nomination, "received" the nomination or whatever, it is not that significant. What is significant, however, and what undemises his creditability is that he did not present to this court any evidence other than his generalized statements as to the efficacy of his therapy on brain damaged individuals like Terry Schiavo. He testified that he has treated about 50 patients in the same or worse condition than Terry Schiavo since 1994 but he offered no names, no case studies, no videos and no tests results to support his claim that he had success in all but one of them. If his therapy is as effective as he would lead this court to believe, it is inconceivable that he would not produce clinical results of these patients he has treated. And surely the medical literature would be replete with this new, now patented, procedure. Yet, he has only published one article and that was in 1995 involving some 63 patients, 60% of whom were suffering from whiplash. None of these
patients were in a persistent vegetative state and all were conversant. Even he acknowledges that he is aware of no article or study that shows vasodilatation therapy to be an effective treatment for persistent vegetative state patients. The court can only assume that such substantiations are not available, not just catalogued in such a way that they can not be readily identified as he testified.

Neither Dr. Hammesfahr nor Dr. Maxfield was able to credibly testify that the treatment options that they offered would significantly improve Terry Schiavo's quality of life. While Dr. Hammesfahr blithely stated he should be able to get her to talk, he admitted he was not sure in what way he can improve her condition although he feels certain her can. He also told the court that "only rarely" do his patients have no improvement. Again, he is extremely short of specifics. Dr. Maxfield spoke of a "chance" of recovery although he stated there was a significant probability that hyperbaric therapy would improve her condition. It is clear from the evidence that these therapies are experimental insofar as the medical community is concerned with regard to patients like Terry Schiavo which is borne out by the total absence of supporting case studies or medical literature. The Mandate requires something more than a belief, hope or "some" improvement. It requires this court to
find, by a preponderance of the evidence, that the treatment offers such sufficient promise of increased cognitive function in Mrs. Schiavo's cerebral cortex so as to significantly improve her quality of life. There is no such testimony, much less a preponderance of the evidence to that effect. The other doctors, by contrast, all
testified that there was no treatment available to improve her quality of life. They were also able to credibly testify that neither hyperbaric therapy nor vasodilatation therapy was an effective treatment for this sort of injury. That being the case, the court concludes that the Respondents have not met the burden of
proof cast upon them by the Mandate and their Motion. Accordingly, it is

ORDERED AND AJDUDGED that the Motion for Relief from Judgment filed herein by Robert and Mary Schindler, Respondents, be and the same is hereby denied.

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/trialctorder11-02.txt

[fleabert]

179. your source sucks. they publish Santorum, methinks it is

somewhat biased!

how about one that isn't?

[daleo]

201. This is not legal testimony, this is what some guy said to the press

He wasn't under oath, according to your article. The court chose to believe actual legal testimony.

[illflem]

9. Why does the husband refuse to let Terri undergo

an MRI or CAT scan?
I'd rather be dead than be Terri but this raises some questions

[Ninga]

13. In order to determine that her cortex has turned to liquid, it had

to be diagnosed. She has had EVERY TEST KNOWN TO MAN KIND.

illflem, she was a bulimic.....she had a major heart attack after throwing up........

BASTA!!!!

[Riding this Donkey]

132. She has not had an MRI!!!!!!!!!!! n/t

[janx]

173. She cannot have an MRI. She has electrodes in her brain

from the experimental therapy in California years ago that prevent her being able to have one.

But the CAT scan is sufficient. The courts have ruled about this over and over, and the independent physicians (those not paid for by her parents and their right wingnut supporters) agree.

[WoodrowFan]

104. he DIDN'T

she's had every test, including MRI and Cat scans? Any more RW lies you want to parrot??

[janx]

159. What do you call this?

[glaucon]

15. the truth

Terri Schiavo--TRUTH vs. Lies


TRUTH about her husband:

*When doctors determined that Terri had entered a persistent vegetative state, Michael flew Terri to California for experimental surgical treatments, sleeping on a cot in her hospital room.

*Even after doctors in California determined surgery would do nothing to help Terri, Michael continued to seek help. He admitted Terri to a Florida brain-injury center and hired an aide to take her out to parks and museums, in the hope it might stimulate her reawakening. It didn't.

*With his wife in a nursing home, Michael began taking classes in health care at St. Petersburg Junior College. He eventually became a certified respiratory therapist and a registered nurse. Michael today works in an emergency room at a hospital in Florida.

*He has said his own mother's death from cancer helped him come to terms with death and dying. In 1998, Michael began to petition the court for the removal of the feeding tube that had kept Terri alive for eight years.

*When asked on CNN's "Larry King Live" why he doesn't simply divorce his wife, Michael said, "This is Terri's wish, this is Terri's choice. And I'm going to follow that wish if it's the last thing I can do for Terri."

*The court has agreed she said she did not want to live in a vegatative state. The court and husband are satisfied on this topic.
--------------
LIES being told by right wing bloggers and terrisfight.org:

*Her name is Terri Schiavo, NOT Terri Schindler-Schiavo, this is a right to life TRICK to make you think about her parents.

* Her situation CAN improve. How MANY doctors need to tell the parents and right wing goofballs she CANNOT improve before they accept science and move on?

* She was NEVER abused. Her husband NEVER put her in this condition. It's like all the abuse claims over children come out AFTER the divorce proceedings begin. NO COURT has ever entertained these claims as being factual.

(A tip o' the hat to WatchThisDrive on SC)


From http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=519&e=10&u=/ap/20050316/ap_on_re_us/brain_damaged_woman_money_1

Money Evaporating in Terri Schiavo Battle

PINELLAS PARK, Fla. - As the battle over Terri Schiavo's life rages in the courtrooms and halls of government, the 41-year-old brain-damaged woman lies in a hospice bed, dependent on Florida taxpayers and the institution's charity for her care.

The $1 million received by her and her husband, Michael, in a medical malpractice case in 1993 is nearly gone, attorneys say, spent on her care and the husband's legal quest over the past seven years to stop her artificial feedings so she can die.

Her parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, have fought their son-in-law every step of the way in a bitter saga that could be entering its final chapter as the court-ordered removal of the feeding tube approaches on Friday. On Wednesday, a Florida appeals court rejected another request from the Schindlers to block the removal.

In a case where both sides have accused the other of being motivated by money, hardly anybody is getting paid anymore.

Michael Schiavo's attorneys say they have not been paid in more than two years. David Gibbs III, whose Clearwater law firm represents the Schindler family, said he is working for free, although a national anti-abortion group, Life Legal Defense Foundation, has paid some of his expenses and previously paid a Schindler attorney.

"We committed to help the Schindlers as a law firm whether they could pay or not," said Gibbs, whose rapid-fire filing of court motions trying to save Terri Schiavo's life has kept judges busy for weeks.

Just $40,000 to $50,000 remains of the money won in the malpractice case after Terri Schiavo's heart stopped in 1990 and left her in what court-appointed doctors say is a persistent vegetative state. Deborah Bushnell, one of Michael Schiavo's attorneys, said the money is being saved for litigation expenses.

The money is held in a trust fund, and a judge approves all expenditures, from attorneys' fees to the woman's haircuts.

[molly]

17. More truth....

After February 1993, Mr. Schiavo’s attitude concerning treatment for the ward apparently changed. .... It is apparent to me that he has reached a point that he has no hope of the ward’s recovery and wants to get on with his own life. admitted to the guardian ad litem that he had at least two romantic involvements after Terri’s collapse.

That Michael wanted to “move on” with his life was evident long before Pearse interviewed Michael. In the 1993 guardianship hearing, Michael testified regarding his disposition of some of Terri’s property:

Attorney: What did you do with your wife’s jewelry?

Michael: My wife’s jewelry?

Attorney: Yeah.

Michael: Um, I think I took her engagement ring and her...what do they call it...diamond wedding band and made a ring for myself.

Attorney: What did you do with her cats?

Michael: Her cats were put to sleep on the advice of my mother-in-law.

The veterinarian who euthanized Terri’s pets came forward to say there was never any suggestion from Terri’s mother that this be done, and that it was done only at Michael Schiavo’s insistence.

Pearse also found that Michael’s claim that Terri wouldn’t want to live in her condition wasn’t credible and noted that Michael stood to inherit about $800,000:

http://www.crisismagazine.com/january2004/johansen.htm

[ebayfool]

34. Doesn't look too truthful to me, prefer 'truth' from nonreligious source

that is not actively involved with working w/her parents in this case. Your 'truth' is coming from a religous magazine who's stated function is to attempt to affect change on the course of the American culture per their religious viewpoints:
snip/

CRISIS Magazine

The mission of CRISIS Magazine is to interpret and shape the direction of contemporary culture from a standpoint of Catholic tradition. We are dedicated to the proposition that the crisis of modernity can be answered by a Christian humanism rooted in the teachings of the Catholic Church. We bring the wisdom of the Catholic tradition into direct dialogue with contemporary politics and culture.
http://www.crisismagazine.com/about.htm


The author of your 'truth' is Rev. Robert Johansen, a priest of the Diocese of Kalamazoo, Michigan.
snip/

My own involvement with the fight to save Terri Schiavo’s life began a few months ago. After learning of Terri’s plight, I became convinced that a terrible injustice was being perpetrated. I began writing about her situation on my weblog, Thrown Back (http://ThrownBack.blogspot.com). This eventually led to me getting to know some of the people involved with Terri’s fight, including the Schindlers themselves. After Terri’s feeding tube was withdrawn, for several days, Michael Schiavo denied Terri’s pastoral care by refusing to let a priest visit her. At that point the Schindlers and the priest who has been closest to them, Monsignor Thaddeus Malanowski, asked me to come to Florida to be of assistance. Fortunately, my bishop, James Murray of Kalamazoo, graciously granted his permission for me to go. http://www.crisismagazine.com/january2004/johansen.htm

I really enjoyed their letter from Rick Santorum, pumping how the repubs are making substantial progress on core social matters, despite the obstructionist Democrats. http://www.crisismagazine.com/hill.htm
===================
An actual copy of all the court decisions can be obtained (without the inflated lawsuit numbers & presenting a bit more honest picture of the situation) at:
www.abstractappeal.com


The court docs disprove most of the hysteria I'm seeing here. I'm particularly disturbed to see the husband & his actions disparaged by the constant referrals to his personal life. After years of - to quote one of the judges in this case - providing excellent & loving care for Terri's needs & comforts, the best he be bashed w/is that he dares to offend some else's idea of a 'moral' lifestyle! The money crap that's tossed at his feet is also a bunch of bullshit. The numbers awarded in the malpractice suit grow w/each post, it seems. $750,000 is not an enormous sum of cash when the expenses involved in this poor woman's care over a period of so many years are added up. An emotional reaction to the legal decision to remove the feeding tube does NOT justify the kinds of attacks that are being levied against the man, imo. Most spouses probably would have caved years ago under these kinds of attacks, I venture that Terri was very aware of the kind of man she chose to marry - & appears to have chosen well. Even though he's entitled to continue living his life, he has chosen to not abandon Terri, as well. That shows some grit - not the morally bankrupt, money grubber I see him being painted as. Terri should be allowed to leave the shell, not pulled like some prize by fundies w/a political axe to grind.

[WoodrowFan]

100. not to mention the regular column from Santorum

not to mention the regular column from Rick Santorum, the articles attacking divorce, etc. It's a rw catholic "pro-life" magazine, about as reliable as the 700 Club "News" shows.

[mondo joe]

68. More smears from pro lifers. If you want truth try the court records, the

medical reports and the legal issues.

[Catchawave]

113. Not defending pro-lifers, but

isn't this discussion about glitches in the judicial system? Terri should have been let go YEARS ago.

Somebody is lying.

:shrug:

Now the nucking futs Congress is getting involved, but I think that's more about votes than Terri as most of them probably never heard her name before this past week.

What parent would keep their child in a PVS unless someone's feeding them false hope? If so, I'd like to see those doctors lose their licenses and their lawyers disbarred!

[mondo joe]

121. Somebody is definitely lying. And some are doing it right in this thread.

But though the legal system isn't perfect, this case has been upheld 18 times without fail.

[janx]

160. I'm telling you--this topic really brings them out!

;-)

[Catchawave]

171. I don't think anyone's "lying" on this thread......

I think what's being discussed and digested is the spew in the MSM and on the internets. :shrug:

18 times? That should prove what problems lie in our justice system, or somebody (parents, husband, snakeoil lawyers) making alot of money off Terri. It's just mucky-muck.

That, my friend, is the tragedy, imo. Terri's life/death decisions have been terribly inept. YEARS ago, the tube should have been pulled or she should have been given to her parents.

What bothers me most is those of you (generic) who think "loving husband" should be given the benefit of the doubt. IMHO, I think he should have lost that designation when he bonked his first floozie before, during, or after all this mess. He's certainly not thinking of his children? Maybe a book deal at this point?

[janx]

172. "or she should have been given to her parents"

What is it about a woman's decision regarding her own body that you do not understand?

She is not a thing to be "given" to her husband, to her parents, or to anyone else. She had definite wishes about what should happen to her body should she end up in such a horrible situation. Her husband respects that even though he knows she's gone now.

Can you not understand this?

[Catchawave]

174. I'm a Pro-Choice woman AND a mother....

...so maybe I should remove myself from this discussion because I'm biased ?

I just believe if the courts are going to rat fu*k up life and death decisons, they should err on the side of life. Had they done that in the first place, we wouldn't have Congress involved now, would we?

If this were my daughter, I would have pulled the plug LONG ago. My concern now is the mental state of Terri's mom, and what's going on in her head. As for me, if I were in a Terri state of non-mind, I really wouldn't care, would I. There's no conscious, thought or pain according to the experts? So I don't buy the "if it were me" crap. I'd be Mrs Potato Head, right?

[janx]

175. So this woman's desire not to live as a vegetable means

nothing?

[Catchawave]

177. I don't know Terri's desire.....

...apparently, neither does the judicial system :thumbsdown:

[Pithlet]

180. The judicial system ruled it was her wish!

Her husband, her legal next of kin says so, as well as at least a couple other witnesses. What more is needed? It wouldn't be erring on the side of life. It would be ruling against this woman's wishes.

[bettyellen]

176. exactly, patriarchal bullshit--- terri reverts back to her parents

becasue she hadn't yet created her own family yet.
if michael and she had the kids she was planning, she wouldn't be such an easy target to denigrate her marriage with bullshit innuendo.

[mondo joe]

190. No, there are some who are out and out lying. They say things

like "Michael spent her money on himself instead of her care".

[underpants]

22. Great post-see this link (3rd posting of it) also

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html

[Riding this Donkey]

18. Dr. Michael Baden reviewed bone scans and it looked to him that

Terri could have very well been strangled.

here is a link:

http://www.syndicatednews.net/

Sometimes you really do have to back up, in or to move forward. We are a very old blog (SyndicatedNews was established in 1974). Since then, we've published thousands of personal opinions written by anyone that wanted to be published if they had a well written report on just about anything. One of the longest running stories on SyndicatedNews has been that of the Terri Schiavo saga. And not because I was sympathetic, but because I was fascinated by her husband's long running fight to pull her plug and the equally fierce fight put up by her parents and family to keep her alive.




The Terri Schiavo story in particular, originally caught my attention, when many media and medical professionals whom I had worked with on other stories, soon changed their position once they pored over the mountain of published media reports and Terri's medical records. Not some of her medical records - all of them. It's even happened to me. After years of tongue-in-cheek jokes, I've changed my mind.

What's annoying about this case now? The bone scans. I can't get past the bone scans and no matter what I read or see on this case, I keep coming back to them. Former chief medical examiner for the city of New York, Dr. Michael Baden has written several books on forensic pathology. This man knows his craft. On the Terri Schiavo case, in 1991, he told FOX's Greta Van Susteren that, "It is extremely rare for a 20-year-old to have a cardiac arrest from low potassium who has no other diseases . . . which she doesn't have. . . . The reason that she's in the state she's in is because there was a period of time, maybe five or eight minutes, when not enough oxygen was going to her brain. That can happen because the heart stops for five or eight minutes, but she had a healthy heart from what we can see." In summary, Baden's report states:

a) Terri’s injuries are not consistent with a heart attack; no cardiac evidence to support it. b) Extremely rare for potassium imbalance on woman her age and in her good health. c) Injuries are consistent with severe trauma possibly caused by a beating. d) The injuries in medical records warrant an immediate investigation.

The bone scan was prepared by Dr. W. Campbell Walker. The report was a trauma evaluation detailing broken bones and other bones still in various stages of healing. One serious suspected head bruise alarmed the doctor to the point where he wrote he suspected "closed head injury." and that, "This patient has a history of trauma. The presumption is that the other multiple areas of trauma also relate to previous trauma." Walker listed injuries to the ribs, thoracic vertebrae, both sacroiliac joints, both ankles and both knees."


edited to add snippets.

[trapper914]

136. And yet...

...when Michael sued the hospital for failing to diagnose bulimia, none of the doctors or their lawyers even HINTED that she might have been strangled.

If he really put her in the PVS, would he risk being exposed in a civil trial?

[Catchawave]

19. I've read the same talking points over and over

on the MSM...especially from the repubs on the news shows. I've also heard it was after dinner while she was purging that she collapsed?

A :tinfoilhat: caller to cspan said the husband wants her dead for fear she'd regain some speech and tell them "what really happened" that night ?

I love my fellow DUers, but I don't understand why some of them think he's so devoted for turning down millions of dollars to divorce her and let her parents keep her? So maybe he needs to be looked at a little closer. If he's so married f'ing in love with her, why is he committing adultery??

A timeline of this tragedy would be helpful as far as all the lawsuits and litigation......didn't he win a huge amount based on the fact he told the jury he'd take care of her the rest of her life? Then conveniently wanted her dead?

I hear conflicting stories on what happened to the money. I also hear conflicting stories about when Terri became a ward of the state and medicaid took over? Isn't it then when everybody loses guardianship and the state decides what's best for her?

I can't believe this has been going on for 15 years! MSM is really letting us down with facts, while allowing Delay to grandstand to his pro-life base as a really, really compassionate man.

I hope Terri is released from her living hell soon, then investigate the court case, and who screwed up, when, how, and why. That's what needs to be fixed....soon!

[underpants]

21. See this link-very informative and seems to be unbiased

No answer on WHEN medicaid took over but this ONE lawyer's assessment of the legal proceedings (to me) seems to be the best I have read so far.

The most interesting part is that Michael petitioned the court to make the decision and in doing so gave up his right/ability later on to change what the court said.

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html

[Catchawave]

30. this part is interesting......

"Recently, Michael received an offer of $1 million, and perhaps a second offer of $10 million, to walk away from this case and permit Terri's parents to care for her. These offers, assuming there were two, were based on a misunderstanding of the situation here. Michael lacks the power to undo the court order determining Terri's wishes and requiring the removal of her feeding tube. He did not make the decision and cannot unmake it. The court made the decision on Terri's behalf. Nonetheless, Michael apparently rejected each offer."

No proof of these offers? Also, explains why he would reject them if there were?

[underpants]

37. Yes very interesting-I had not heard that ANYWHERE

Basically it is out of his hands (gave up the rights by going to court) so any offers were useless even if he had divorced her.

I learned more about this case from that one website than from any other source I have seen.

[Bouncy Ball]

43. Google for those stories the $1 million offer was just recently.

the offer was for Michael to turn over custody of his wife to his parents and he refused the money.

Damn it was just recently, look it up on Google News.

[LisaL]

60. And apparently even if he gives up the custody now, the tube

will still be removed.
Because he already testified to what her wishes were. How can he accept the money?

[LiberalFighter]

157. USAToday mentioned both last week. 1 and 10 million

[Politicub]

82. Adultery - so ten commandment of you

Maybe he is committing "adultery" because the woman he once loved is for all intensive purposes dead. Maybe he just wants to set Terri's body free. She is a husk, a shell.

I don't really know, but I would hope my partner would make the same decision to remove life support for me. But I'm a fag, so I know my partner would have no standing in my medical decisions.

Terri has no quality of life. None.

Anyone who would allow themselves to be used by the vile delay is an idiot or tool or both.

[Bridget Burke]

24. So--were charges filed against him?

If he's such a suspect, why didn't her parents start screaming immediately?

[Riding this Donkey]

25. Laci petersons parents didn't start screaming right away either

give these parents a break will ya!

[mondo joe]

33. Terri's parents are liars who admit they'd degy her wishes about

continued life support.

They don't deserve any breaks.

[drdon326]

35. WOW.

Thats some post.

[Bunny]

39. Yes, you are right. They said they would ignore her wishes,

even if she had personally told them that she wanted to die. They also said they would have all of her arms and legs removed, to keep her alive. They said they would have open heart surgery performed on her, to keep her alive. These people have moved past grieving parents and become certifiable nuts.

[mondo joe]

44. Is it any wonder they produced a bulimic child?

Given their ghoulish natures and their control issues, it's a miracle she lived to be old enough to marry at all.

[Riding this Donkey]

56. Thank goodness you have an open and understanding mind.

stop bashing the parents, is that all you can do.

You have no proof to back up what you just said, nothing, those are your own sick feelings, IMHO.

[mondo joe]

58. Her parents admit they'd defy her wishes. They say it - not me.

[WoodrowFan]

101. You have no proof to back up what you just said,

"You have no proof to back up what you just said, nothing, those are your own sick feelings, IMHO."


Gee, project much? I haven't seen ANYTHING in your posts that isn't just cut n pasted from smear-job Right Wing sites.

bye bye.

[Bunny]

64. Kinda ironic, isn't it?

I've heard (heresay, I know) that they nagged her when she was a teenager because she was heavy. Any wonder she turned bulimic, indeed.

[Catchawave]

116. Yes, interesting.....

...and if this quest to keep her alive is based on guilt, the parents need serious therapy to help them deal with letting her go.

[mondo joe]

128. They admitted they'd defy her wishes about life support - even now they

continue to control her and deny her own authority over herself.

What a hell it must have been for her.

[Catchawave]

178. If it's true they'd do anything to keep her in PVS

...they need serious help dealing with the fact their daughter is not a potted plant. The courts need to recognize this fact and help them redirect their love and compassion for their daughter to becoming advocates for the profoundly disabled.

Our idiot congress needs to fix the system that let Terri down, not save her life.

[Bouncy Ball]

46. A 15 year break?

They're so concerned about her, but they think he might have hurt her and 15 years later, they still haven't even had charges brought against him?

You know why?

He didn't hurt her. This is a red herring.

[LisaL]

59. Isn't state suppose to bring charges in such matter, not the

parents? Ever heard about burden of prove? You can not charge someone unless you think you can prove the crime.

[Bouncy Ball]

62. Exactly my point.

Obviously the state never thought there was any/enough evidence to even BRING charges against him.

Says a lot, don't you think?

Or would you rather the state bring charges against him anyway? You know, just for the heck of it? Or just to punish him for being a man, maybe?

[LisaL]

70. Just because there is not enough prove that crimed occurred,

doesn't mean there was no crime. The only person that truly knows what had happened to her can not talk.

[Bouncy Ball]

75. You don't believe in the legal process

or courts or silly stuff like that, do ya?

So instead of going through the courts (because there isn't even enough evidence to bring charges, much less prove he hurt her), the parents and everyone else with the parents just spread rumors and innuendo to smear him THAT way.

And people just go right along with it.

Interesting how that works.

[mondo joe]

76. So not enough to charge him - just to smear him with lies and

innuendo in the press and message boards.

Gotcha!

[mondo joe]

63. Then there's no evidence he did anything wrong.

NOw that you've admitted that, you can move on.

And since you surely know civil charges can be brought, it means the parents don't think there's anything there either.

[ultraist]

158. Actually they did make a report of abuse/neglect

And the court found he was not guilty of such. They tried it at least twice and the second time they refused to hear the case because the judge said it was just a ploy.

Early on, they hired "expert" witnesses, the doctors noted on the RW sites, to testify that he had abused her during their marriage and the courts found that he had not.

All of these claims of abuse have been ruled on by the courts. After 16 courts, they still have not terminated his guardianship or found him guilty of abuse.

I think it's unethical to continue medical treatments after 15 years of no improvement, a missing cerebral cortex, and huge medical costs. Furthermore, the court ruled that Terri would not want to be on life supports, based on testimony.

The parents have managed to stall the court order for years now, enough is enough.

Earlier on, before I had read the facts on this case, I had mixed feellings because her husband didn't appear to have her best interests at heart. But it's become glaringly obvious that there is no reason to continue to force her to have medical treatments including the feeding tube, which IS a medical treatment.

If I were severely ill or damaged, I would NOT want the State interfering with my wishes to end or continue medical treatment. That is what they are doing with this Congressional bill. It's simply wrong for the State to take that power over our bodies from us.

[Bouncy Ball]

187. I've noticed you have changed your stance on this issue.

And I wanted to commend you for reading through all the information and deciding for yourself. I respect that greatly. I did the same thing: the more I learned about this case, the more I went the direction you did.

[ebayfool]

117. They didn't wait years, either!

Do you really think (w/the resources the malpractice insurance lawyers have at their disposal) that when this was litigated w/her doctors for the original malpractice suit, that they didn't look for ANYTHING that would get them out from under the lawsuit? If there had been physical evidence of what you & the fundies are smearing her husband with, they would have brought it up & saved the big bucks they had to shell out!

Of course, that wouldn't have been as titillating to newspaper & blog readers though - would it? Gotta give 'em that fresh meat & keep 'em coming back for more ... Nummm nummm, nothing like a little blood & sensational pandering to keep them readers coming back for more! Throw in a little conspiracy (ooooh, wife beater!) for seasoning & religious moralizing for fiber, damn ... no better way to hook the masses on what's being dished up & served w/flair!

Like someone upthread said ... Basta!

[Bouncy Ball]

36. You know what?

I've heard those SAME things about Michael Schiavo from DUers right here on this forum.

And I was suspicious of it because that's what I've heard from right wing folk, too.

You draw your own conclusions.

They keep showing the same video footage of her mom kissing her cheek.

Terri's not there. She died a long time ago. They've just been keeping her body alive.

It's all completely and totally sad.

But I'm not going to sit in judgement of her husband, because as Terri's case has gone through all these legal battles, he's never even been charged with hurting her, much less found guilty.

I feel for the guy, myself

[mondo joe]

40. And wouldn't you think, given Jeb Bush and the far right that if there was

ANY evidence linking him to abuse or worse they'd bring charges?

People would rather eat the smears the Schindler Ghouls feed them than read the material or reason.

Even the radiologist who said he found bone fractures not typical of what he'd expect said NO ONE is typical, and he acknowleged reports from MULTIPLE radiologists who found NO indication of injury.

[LisaL]

41. They can't show any new videos of her because

the judge ruled it should not be done.
How do you expect to see a new videos of her, do tell?

[Bouncy Ball]

50. Why does the MSM need to show the SAME footage over and

over and over again?

They aren't under any court order to show that same footage, now are they?

NOPE.

[LisaL]

65. They can not get any new footage because the

judge ruled no new tapes of her can be taken.

[Bouncy Ball]

69. You are missing my point.

There's no REQUIREMENT on the MSM to show the footage in the first place.

[Riding this Donkey]

120. Not only that the judge ruled that once her tube is pulled she is not

allowed water or food by mouth.

Why not?????

[trapper914]

138. Legal Action

Knowing she can't chew or swallow, a person trying to make her ingest something would probably be charged criminally if she choked to death.

[underpants]

45. I think that seed was planted a long time ago

and I think it took root even with those who doubt everything the see on the TV.

this link tells me everything I need to know about this case (very unbiased). There seems to be no proof that he beat her left her or cheated on her.
Also by going to the courts and letting them decide he seems to have given up all his rights to change her treatment.

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html

[Riding this Donkey]

49. And I'm not going to sit here in judgement of her parents

Many here on DU, as I have witnessed, call her parents

Sickos

Control Freaks

Fundies

Child Molesters

Dispicable human beings

Users

Money hungry

Don't care about their daughter

Hate her

Mistreat her



and much much more!

[Bouncy Ball]

55. Well, I've never calld her parents a single thing.

I do think they are in the clutches of the religious right, who are using them for all it's worth.

I HAVE said, however, that Terri has NO cerebral cortex, CANNOT re-grow most of her brain, has no consciousness, judgement, emotions, none of her five senses, cannot move voluntarily, etc.

In other words, NOTHING that makes us human.

Michael is her husband, her NEXT OF KIN, and when you just shove that aside, that opens up some mighty scary doors, precedent-wise.

No one better ever try to shove aside my husband if, God forbid, something like that should happen to me. I'll come back and haunt them.

And it is worth mentioning that Terri's parents have testified in court that they would have gone against Terri's wishes even if she had written them down.

That's just wrong.

[Politicub]

99. How right you are

Michael is her husband, her NEXT OF KIN, and when you just shove that aside, that opens up some mighty scary doors, precedent-wise.

With the crusade of the right, we're all gay domestic partners now, with no legal standing with our significant other.

[msanthrope]

164. Bang On, Dead Straight----and best post of the thread.....n/t

[spanone]

42. This guy has hung around for FIFTEEN YEARS for God's sake.

He could have 'gone away' at any time and yet he chose to stay. Tom DeLay, the evil prick, was trying to blame this on the husband. Bullshit. They are trying to do a 'swift boat veterans' job on this guy. FIFTEEN YEARS.

[LisaL]

47. What exactly going away mean to you?

He is raising two children with another woman. I would say he moved on with his life pretty much. It's not like he has been waiting for 15 years at Terri's bedside.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LisaL]

91. Ever heard of DIVORCE?

[mondo joe]

96. If you don't think spouses should have the right of next of kin I suggest

you never marry, or divorce now.

[spanone]

84. What would YOU do, sit by the bedside?

By NOt going away, I mean he's still around. Comprendo?

[LisaL]

88. How about an obvious thing? Get a divorce before moving in

with another woman?

[Riding this Donkey]

97. Not only this woman, he was having an affair with the nurse who

was taking care of terri.

nuff said.

[janx]

147. Where are you getting this information?

?

[uhhuh]

197. I Can't stop laughing at your posts!!!

You get all indignant about the suggestion that the parents might have some responsibility here, and that they might not Terri's interests at heart, and rail over and over again at Michael Schaivo about what a lousy husband he was!!

Classic!!

[mondo joe]

48. And in that time Terri has had NOT A SINGLE BEDSORE which is

practically unheard of.

He's taken extraordinarily good care of Terri, only to be smeared and demonized by ghouls.

[Riding this Donkey]

51. You do the same exact thing to her parents! n/t

[mondo joe]

54. Nope, I let her parents speak for themselves. They ADMIT they would defy

her wishes.

They admit they never KNEW her wishes.

They oppose Terri's choice of legal guardian.

And they lied on the stand.

I'm nt demonizing them or making things up - that's all established fact.

[LisaL]

53. What, he personally takes care of her for 15 years?

One wonders where he gets the time to spend with his new family.

[mondo joe]

57. He directed her care and the court transcript reflects the hospital came

to consider him an adminstrative headache BECAUSE he was such an advocate for Terri's care. HE is credited with the quality of her care.

[Bouncy Ball]

52. They're also trying to blame it, amazingly, on Democrats now.

I have decided there is NO LIMIT to the depths republicans and the religious right will go to. No conclusion too absurd or illogical, nothing too devious or insane.

Nothing. They are certifiable.

[Riding this Donkey]

67. Democrats do much of this themselves. Everyone here is so

disgusted how the repubs have made this a political issue to further an agenda, but many hear have done the same thing.

I have seen it used to:

Further the right to choose

Gay marriage

Euthanasia

And all of the sudden the sanctity of marriage (usually a right wing issue) is being touted.

This is not a political issue, but as far as I am concerned the dems have made it one just as much as the repubs.

I know I am going to get lambasted, but I find this very ironic.

I think it is absolutely wrong, wrong, wrong to make this a political issue on either side.

It makes me sick that the repubs are doing this to pander for votes, but some dems are using it as well. Don't think it is always so one sided.

As you all know I do not think Terri should have that tube removed for my own reasons, not political, because I have been and always will be a left wing, liberal democrat, but on this one issue my feelings outweigh my liberalism, as I have stated many many times.

Also, I do not feel that the Federal Gov't should be involved in this.

But get a grip some here on DU, you have made it just as much a political football for our own agenda as the repubs have for theirs.

[LisaL]

79. Yea, sanctity of marriage.

What is the sanctity of marriage in this case? Is this the guy who refuses to divorce his wife, even though he got a fiancee and two children?

[Bouncy Ball]

83. Well you and others are so willing to just push him aside

aren't ya?

Sick.

[Riding this Donkey]

90. You are ready to push her parents aside, that is where the rub lies

here. I believe one and you believe the other, what makes me so wrong and you so right.

[mondo joe]

93. Her parents are not her next of kin.

Terri chose the bestow that right on Michael, not her parents.

[Riding this Donkey]

125. We all make mistakes!!!!!!!!!!!! n/t

[mondo joe]

126. It's not for you to decide what others' mistakes are regarding personal

choices.

I suggest you stop projecting your own failed relationship on others.

[Riding this Donkey]

131. Sorry you are wrong on that one, long term marriage, no divorce, and

children.

[Bouncy Ball]

81. BULLSHIT.

It is the religious right who are blocking the courts at EVERY turn, it is Terri's parents who testified they wouldn't follow Terri's wishes even IF she had them written down. It is THEM who have been fighting Michael, Terri's husband and next of kin at every turn.

Democrats didn't turn this into anything, but the religious right has been using her like a cheap stick of gum from the word GO.

This IS about the right to die and to have your wishes honored.

The courts have found REPEATEDLY in Michael's favor, that Terri would not have wanted to be this way.

Also, she's missing most of her brain. She cannot re-grow it. It's despicable that the MSM is still saying things like "the parents want her to have other therapies and treatments."

Like WHAT??? They've never said. Because there's nothing you can do for missing most of your brain. MISSING, not damaged, MISSING.

[Riding this Donkey]

94. It is the truth what I wrote, read through the threads, many here

have used this issue to further agendas as well.

[mondo joe]

85. Guess you didn't notice a lot of dems pushing for gays to get the sanctity

of marriage.

The REAL sanctity of marriage is not a RW issue - that's a line to exclude people.

[Riding this Donkey]

95. Mondo, this is one example of my point proven. Thank you. n/t

[mondo joe]

98. Learn to read, Dems believe in the sanctity of individual choice, which

includes who to marry.

[Riding this Donkey]

102. Again, thank you for proving my point.......

those are political issues and you are using hers to further your own.

[mondo joe]

105. I'm furthering Terri's choices for herself. That's the ethical, not

political, choice.

[Riding this Donkey]

108. I read some threads that you started yesterday , here it is.....

How ironic that as we fight for gay couples to have spousal rights

That is a thread you started, here is a link to refresh your memory..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3303150

[mondo joe]

109. My support of Terri in no way advances gay marriage. I wish you'd

learn to read.

[Riding this Donkey]

111. I would suggest you learn to do the same, or atleast

learn how to write, if that isn't what you meant in the post, i don't know what you meant.

Here is the post, what did you mean then?

mondo joe (1000+ posts) Sat Mar-19-05 08:04 PM
Original message
How ironic that as we fight for gay couples to have spousal rights


there are people on DU so adamantly opposed to ANYONE having spousal rights.

There are so many gay partners who have been put through hell because a death or health issue put them at the mercy of a homophobic parent.

And now just as gays are getting the first glimmers of legal recognition as spouses, we have a congress AND EVEN DU POSTERS demanding that spouses have no right to make medical choices for each other if they are incapacitated.

[mondo joe]

114. Again, my support of Terri has NO IMPACT on same sex marriage.

Whether Terri's legal rights are respected or not in no way advances same sex marriage.

[Riding this Donkey]

118. Answer the question then, what did you mean by that post? n/t

[mondo joe]

122. I meant "it's ironic". Just like I said.

[Riding this Donkey]

123. Just what I thought.........you can't answer it n/t

[Name removed]

124. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Riding this Donkey]

127. Lame n/t

[hollywood926]

130. Thank You...

Very well said. I was chuckling all day yesterday about the "defense of marriage" threads on the DU all of a sudden. Not so important that her husband spits on the marriage contract every day when he goes home to the person he actually has sex with...

Both sides are very much using this as a political football.

[uhhuh]

198. You Can't Be Serious

Yes, Democrats and progressives have made comparisons to all those things because they are all related to issues of basic freedom and liberty.

Democrats and progressives generally stand up for the protection of the less powerful in society to decide their own future.

The opinion that has been expressed over and over regarding this case is that Terri's wishes, to best ability that can be determined by multiple courts, was that she would not choose to live in this condition. She, it has been determined, took control of her destiny in word and deed by, presumably, indicating that she would not like to live this way, and by marrying Mr.Schiavo.

We as progressives are championing her cause to determine her own destiny by supporting her decision to marry a man she felt would have her best interests at heart,and support that, in the sense that marriage provides a legal covenant to allow for such things, he be able to make or petition the courts to provide someone to make, the decision to continue or end care that will be in her interest.

Whether or not YOU believe that she made a poor decision in the choice of husband, and that he may or may not have model example of such, there has been NO determination by anybody with any legal standing, that he has not endeavored to provide adequate care while she has been alive, or that he in any way injured or abused her.

This issue goes to my fundamental views of what it means to be a liberal. The crux of it is liberty.

The liberty to decide things for myself or my family in such a way, that where it does not violate the rights of others, is the core of all the issues that you brought up.

The comparisons are valid.

Gay rights:check.

Pro-choice:check.

Euthanasia: check.

The right to enter into or dissolve a marriage covenant without interference from the government(religious freedom):check.

If the State is going to recognize the marriage covanant as a legally binding contract allowing for one party to make life and death decisions regarding the other in some cases, it should allow them in all, barring overwhelming evidence of mitigating factors that would dertermine that the other individual is incapable of, or would be incompetant or negligent in doing so.




This goes to the essence of equality and fairness.

That is a wide ranging issue.

[hollywood926]

133. Fifteen years of poking another woman while..

HER PARENTS sit by her bedside and take care of her.

FIFTEEN YEARS of poking another woman, refusing a divorce and jumping in front of every camera he can find. He's so fake, too. It makes me sick to even see his phony expressions of grief. Ick.

[mondo joe]

135. This is untrue. HE provided her care, not her parents, and the court

records confirm he took extraordinarily good care of her.

[janx]

149. This information is not true.

Where did you get it?

[Carni]

186. *Now isn't that special*

Maybe you would rather he sit by her bedside and "poke" her?

You want to talk about FAKE?

Have you bothered to watch the bullshit being spewed by the parent's right winged lawyers lately?

Terri is crying and trying to say "let me live" or whatever?

Damn, how stupid can people be.

[mondo joe]

61. This is an assault on the right of EVERYONE to designate the person who

is authorized BY YOU to make medical choices for you when you are incapacitated.

In 15 years NO ONE has come up with enough evidence against Michael Schiavo to even CHARGE him with wrong doing, despite a right wing government opposed to him.

[Bouncy Ball]

72. DING!!!!

You just hit on why this bothers me so much.

I have a wonderful, loving husband. HE is my next of kin. HE is the one I want making decisions for me in the case of my incapacitation. He feels the same way about me.

I don't want right wing nuts and the state of Texas getting other people to fight my husband and make it difficult/impossible for him to carry out my wishes. And I HAVE a living will! But damn if they aren't trying to make precedent with Terri.

It's really scary.

[Mr_Spock]

66. Who gives a fuck - they've had 7 YEARS to sort this out in courts!!!!!!!!!

Either respect our court system or let's become an anarchy. There is nothing wrong with the law - why don't we have congress intervene in other court cases? OJ, MJ, Blake... where does it end??????????????

[drdon326]

77. Did you say the same thing when the SC handed it to * ??

.

[mondo joe]

80. Handing it to * wasn't reviewed REPEATEDLY in multiple courts for

7 years and upheld EVERY SINCE TIME in almost 20 challenges, WAS IT?????

[Mr_Spock]

103. You are diverting - that was a completely different example of abuse

They never should have taken the case in the first place as they didn't have jurisdiction in Florida. NOW THE CONGRESS IS TRYING TO FORCE JURISDICTION TO THE FEDERAL COURTS WHO HAVE ALREADY REFUSED TO HEAR THE CASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do you see the difference?

[UTUSN]

74. He Has Been Under Court Microscopes for Yrs & Has NOT Been Removed

as Guardian. Yes, if you Google any of the SHIAVO case related names you will havest a SLEW of Wingnut-Fundie allegations, that the lawyer is on the Board of the hospice and has reaped Medicare funds, that he and the judge have conflicts of interest-----to INFINITY. If the legal Guardian, THE SPOUSE, had been found in misconduct, he would have been REMOVED as Guardian, and somebody else appointed.

On all the SCHIAVO threads I post in today, I am going to say that the TIME IS PAST to review the particulars of this case. That has been done by a humongous number of courts in the proper STATE venues and the outcome has been the same.

Also, the TIME IS PAST for us to be discovering which side of this case we are on and what we think the REAL ISSUES are. But for the record, the REAL issues are NOT about the "right to DIE" OR "SAVING A LIFE." It is about individual and family decisions to be made WITHOUT government interference, pressure, or POWER.

Effing A-hole McCAIN just said this is not about government interfering in private lives, YET he said that Michael SHIAVO should GET A DIVORCE!

So this is NOT about the particulars of the SCHIAVO case. It IS about SCOUNDRELS and COWARDS and PANDERERS, who happen to be in the Congress, being TRAITOROUS to democracy and trampling Constitutional rights.

Here is the non-relative, professional, impartial Guardian ad Litem's observations about Terri SCHIAVO's COMPLETE lack of awarenss and speech.

***************QUOTE*********
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2270&ncid=2270&e=2&u=/krwashbureau/20050319/ts_krwashbureau/_bc_braindamagedwoman_guardian_wa

.... Wolfson was appointed by a Florida court in the fall of 2003 to be Schiavo's guardian ad litem, or guardian at law, to deduce Schiavo's best interests and represent neither her husband nor her parents but Terri Schiavo herself.

This makes Wolfson one of the very few people to have spent extended time with Schiavo and gauged her level of awareness without having a vested interest at stake.

In the end, after long hours at Schiavo's bedside and after poring over 30,000 pages of legal documents, Wolfson concluded that Schiavo was indeed in a permanent vegetative state. ....

But Schiavo never made eye contact. When Wolfson visited her when her parents were there, she never made eye contact with them either, he said. And for all of Wolfson's pleadings and coaxing, he never got what he most wanted: a sign. ....

Wolfson was dismayed to learn Friday that Barbara Weller, an attorney for the Schindlers, claimed that Schiavo tried to speak. "Terri does not speak," he said. "To claim otherwise reduces her to a fiction." ....

********UNQUOTE*******

[UTUSN]

107. I Hate It When George WILL Agrees with Us

He went on a tear about how the Repukes were throwing out hundreds of years of Common Law, not only of local jurisdiction for this type of case but also of MARRIAGE, since it is underming the ONENESS of spouses.

The other two panelists agreed. STEPANOPOULIS had let Effing McCAIN off easy earlier, where McCAIN said he was NOT interfering with private lives, follwing this up by saying that Michael SHIAVO should GET A DIVORCE.

[thinkingwoman]

139. OMG! Are you serious??

George Will??

Is Earth still spinning?

Wowie.

P.S. Thank you for posting that excerpt describing the other guardian's experience. In my opinion it cannot be posted often enough.

[Bouncy Ball]

150. I know, I nearly FELL the fuck over when I

was sitting there nodding in agreement with George Freaking WILL.

[msanthrope]

166. It's a sign of the Appocalypse...

That fact that I find myself agreeing with George Will makes me sick, but gives me hope that perhaps, finally, some conservatives might wish to throw off the party of the fundie whack-jobs...

[kskiska]

167. Even Morton Kondracke on Faux News

went on a tear over this case. His wife had MS for years and he knows what he's talking about. He couldn't convince Fred Barnes, though.

[mondo joe]

78. "You know there are questions about John Kerry's service in Viet Nam"

And you guys are eating it up just like the MSM did the Swift Boat liars.

[Bouncy Ball]

86. Hell yes, they are.

Rumors, slime, innuendo.

The right wing mantra: if you can't win it in court, just slime them with lies, rumors, and innuendo.

And the cool thing is, they've got the MSM helping 'em out the whole time!

[LisaL]

92. There are also questions about Bush's service.

It goes both ways, no?

[Evergreen Emerald]

119. There is proof about bush's service

Come on, for God's sakes. The fact that he did not get divorced or just let her rot in a nursing home bed is a testiment to him--not against him. He is fighting for her when all he has to do is walk away. That is commitment. The fact that he has moved on with his life shows a whole, healthy person--who continues the commitment to her while he LIVES. He did not die in that bathroom, she did.

[mondo joe]

89. NO ONE can produce a SHRED of evidence that Michael ever hurt Terri

and if they TRY to cite Dr Walker's testimony that he saw bone fractures that were not typical they should be reminded that Dr Walker in that SAME testimony:

1. Said no one is "typical"
2. Acknowledged multiple readiology reports that found NO indication of injury

[janx]

110. This is not new. It's all part of the right wingnut, cyber myth machine.

It adds to the melodrama, and the right wingnuts use it and even embellish it whenever they can.

[ryan_cats]

137. I did the same thing

I thought he was a scumbag too. When I went to find actual quotes, I couldn't find anything but innuendo. So now I think he's innocent.

The only thing I can't reconcile is that she is most definitely NOT in a persistent vegetative state. From the video I saw, she's responding to stimuli. I don't know if she's getting any kind of therapy or not but she does look responsive.

[mondo joe]

141. I'm afraid you saw a very deceptive video

Even the Schindler lawyers do not deny she's in PVS.

But the video you saw is fraudulent. Hours of non responsiveness were cut to give the impression she is responding, when in fact her random expressions havve nothing to do with the stimulus.

[ryan_cats]

192. Is that true?

I saw more than one. There's one where she's outside, too. She doesn't look as responsive in that one though.

If she is truly in a PVS without hope, this back and forth removal and adding back the feeding tube is torture, let the woman have peace.

[mondo joe]

194. You don't have to believe me. Look here at the court record.

The court opinions indicate that similar videos were viewed in their entirety by the trial court, which found that Terri's actions were no more than reflexive and could not be reproduced with any consistency. The Second District affirmed that decision.

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html

[ryan_cats]

195. Good site

I'll check it out later. Does it have the raw unedited video?
Thanks.

[thinkingwoman]

143. the video is edited

I could be wrong about the original length but I feel like I remember hearing or reading 4 hours.

Take hours of tape and splice out the 30 million times she made no noise or movement when spoken to and suddenly she looks responsive.

[mondo joe]

146. Precisely. Using the same technique you could make a goldfish appear

to understand English.

[ryan_cats]

193. If that's true, it's pretty f*cked up.

They're manipulating that poor woman for their own purpose.

[janx]

199. It is.

And they are.

[janx]

144. The tragedy is that she still has a brain stem but no cortex.

Study basic brain anatomy to get a better understanding of what is going on here. The brain stem allows her to breathe, blink, grimace, groan, etc. But the part of the brain that is responsible for any kind of cognition is gone.

That's why you are seeing what you are seeing in those little clips of video. It doesn't happen often, and it takes hours and hours of tape to catch it.

That is also why Michael Schiavo essentially asked the court for their opinion after so many years of trying to rehabilitate his wife.

[trapper914]

145. Editing

You see seconds of video culled from hours of videotape. The judge saw the tapes too, and believed the medical experts, who confirmed that what you see are involuntary responses.

[Shanty Oilish]

140. Is he still refusing to take a lie detector test? Yes, he is.

There. That's one less question about Michael Schiavo.

[mondo joe]

142. Link please.

[janx]

151. You're not really expecting one, are you?

If you get one at all, it's guaranteed to be one from some right wingnut web site or publication.

This topic really brings 'em out, doesn't it?

[mondo joe]

153. No - they feel justified in making shit up and smearing an innocent man

who is the ONLY person in Terri's life trying to do right by her.

[seabeyond]

152. they have been saying this for a decade

come on people., the decision was made, the court has decided.

are we now the salem fuckin witch hunts

[ultraist]

163. exactly! The courts have decided again and again and again...

16 courts and at least 20 trials.

The State has NO RIGHT interfering in our medical decisions. I don't think those advocating for giving Congress this power realize what this means. Nor, do I think they would be willing to give up their rights over their bodies or the bodies of those in their custody.

How much of our Bill of Rights are they willing to forgo because they have heard rumors from RW websites that Terri's husband is abusive? People need to get a grip and stop letting their emotions get the best of them.

[GoldenOldie]

165. Ravages of Anorexia/Bulimia

Has anyone of the posters been personally associated with a loved one who has/had this dreadful disease???

For the Bulimic, the constant gorging then purging, the continual use of laxatives, causes serious damage to the esophagus, tongue, teeth, from the acids of the stomach. It causes a total imbalance of nutrients required for the total cell structure of the body: hair, teeth, bone, heart, lungs, etc., etc. This is why Terri's heart stopped, if any bones in her neck were broken, they could have been weakened by her disease and any attempts by paramedics/medical personnel to perform treatment could have snapped already weakened bones. Any and all of Terri's cell structure was severely compromised due to her Bulimic disease. A Bulimic may look perfectly normal to those around her/him.

For the Anorexic, the disease becomes much more obvious as the Anorexia, as the patient is unable mentally able to consume foods and consumes large quantities of laxatives. The Anorexic can look like the walking dead yet still pictures themselves as being obese. They hair becomes dull and limp and falls out. Their teeth become gray and yellow as they begin to lose the enamel. Their chemical imbalances goes awry and their bodies are not able to replace the cell structures. If unable to change their mental thinking, the final result is death.

Both of these eating disorders are not a pretty sight. My family spent years fighting to save our anorexic daughter. She was a beautiful 15-year old girl who went from 120 lbs to 81-lbs. She looked like a concentration camp victim and to hold her was to hold a skeleton. We were told by doctor's that if she was unable to turn it around, death was eminent. Our story has a happy ending. Our daughter is now a 39-year old teacher, with a 14-year old daughter of her own, who is teaching in Russia. Although she was fortunate enough to overcome her Anorexia, she understands and senses that her body will never totally recuperate from her disease and that she can face serious medical problems in her future.

If Terri was in fact a Bulimic, much of the ravages of her body were done prior to her heart attack. She began dying when she became bulimic.

[seabeyond]

169. i did a decade and half end of 70's thru 80's

in calif. i was watching girls around me drop like flies, and i was right there in it myself. my mom watching news programs a decade later, when they actually started talking about it

and i am not going with the expert says, parents fault

[_testify_]

182. Okay I know this is going to piss a whole lot of you off

But doesn't anyone see the irony writ large here of a debate over whether or not she wants to EAT?

I think she's spoken on the matter, IMO.

What if she fully recovered and went back to being a bulimic?

It boggles the mind...

[Bouncy Ball]

185. That is some pretty serious irony, you are right.

Wow.

[loudestchick]

196. That is the first thing about this whole circus to make me laugh instead

of scream. Thank-you. I needed the laugh.:think:

[Elidor]

188. The smears against her husband re being spread by her brother

Whose name I forget. I was forced to endure Hannity's radio show on Friday and the brother was on, insinuating that her husband beat her and caused her to be in this state. It was all presented without a shred of supporting evidence. There was no mention of the bogus broken neck. If she'd truly had injuries consistent with a beating, they'd be trumpeting it 24-7, instead of whispering it here and there and waiting for it to take root.

"I have no idea where I got those from."

We all have our moments, but it's usually a good idea to know where you got something from if you're going to label someone "scum." Kudos for owning up to your mistake.

Forgot to add the obvious: smears against her husband serve no purpose other than distraction from her right to die and the underlying issue-everyone's right to die and the new republican power-grab.

[Carolab]

200. It doesn't have bearing on the case.

Whether or not she was injured at his hand is NOT a factor in her disposition.

Unless/until an investigation is opened into whether or not she became brain dead because he tried to strangle her, it has NO bearing.