My Mock Trial For School Tommorow- Insight Needed

[BamaLefty]

Tomorrow we have a mock trial in one of my classes and the case had to be dealing with the first ammendment. So, seeing how we live in a very religion oriented place, we choice to make a case of a student getting kicked out of school for wearing a shirt that says, "Satan is my homeboy!".

Since my friend and me are on the side representing the school in this case, we need some questions you'd ask the person being kicked out of school to make it sound like he is doing the wrong thing.

Hands down the first couple of questions will be, "Do you believe in Satan?" and "Do you believe in God?". If he says "Yes" to the first and "No" to the second, then we'll nail him. But what are some more questions I can ask because I really want to win this thing tomorrow.

And yes yes... I know I am on the losing, and morally unAmerican side, but I really want to make a good showing in my class. Remember, this is nothing but a MOCK trial so don't think that I really believe what I am going to be preaching. Just making sure y'all knew that.

I don't want to lose 9-0 at least. Thanks guys!

[BamaLefty]

1. Absolutley NO suggestions?

n/t

[teryang]

2. Questions about religious belief aren't allowed at trial

They are misleading and prejudicial, they are also improper character evidence. The area of religious belief is generally considered privileged.

However, religious speech has been restricted on school grounds and upheld in federal case law as far as I know. It's a permissable time, place and manner restriction.

You need to go to a law digest, or run the appropriate key words on Lexus or Westlaw.

It really doesn't matter what a person believes, the speech has protected content, either religious, artistic, political, etc. That is pretty much a given. The question is what is the scope of protection on public school grounds for such speech given the legitimate interest of the state in promoting an environment conducive to learning?

Where a goth t shirt really isn't as invasive as preaching on school grounds nor as provocative or potentially disruptive as having your boobs hanging out or wearing gang colors. Is it?

May I wear a crucifix necklace or a yamikah (sp?) in public school.

[The Doctor.]

3. I might start by

NOT asking those questions.

Whether he believes in God, Satan, or Cheesecake should have no bearing on the case whatsoever.
If it is your feeling that you can sway the judge or jury that way however, then by all means.

I would attempt to paint the picture of a disruptor who... are you ready for this?

... is trying to impress his religious beliefs on other students.

I would attempt to turn the whole 'separation of church and state' thing on it's head... even though that is essentially the case here.

Christians would be forced to either agree with you that religion does not belong in school (because they are viscerally opposed to Satanic messages), or state that any and all religions should have voice in the school halls.

Satanists would wind up having to side with Christians one way or the other.

I don't know if those persons will be in anyway represented in your Mock Trial, but that should give you some perspective on how to pin these people down.

The Separation of Church and State concept is clearly on your side here... unless you go to a Catholic School - then you win hands down because they can do whatever they want.

[zooloobush]

6. I agree DR.

This can be simply stated as a religion that is anti-religion. In those paramiters it as much so as any other.

A stated belief in any figure that is of being followed as a religious leader is Religious.

Thats my take, now back to Rum and Coke...lol.

Good Luck.

[MadAsHell]

8. I agree and disagree ...

First, the Separation of Church and State argument does not hold merit if the expression is not state sponsored. If this argument held no one could wear a cross into a public building.

Secondly, I think you point at the real argument with the "disruptor" line of thought. Most states give pretty board powers to schools to maintain the "good order". In my state, schools prohibit any clothing which bears advertisements for tobacco or alcohol. These restrictions would never hold in the "real" world but because of the special function and population of a school they do. If you can couch the message of "Satan is my homeboy!" as intended or likely to cause disturbances, you should be able to prevail.

[seabeyond]

4. i think i would go after a kid doesnt have rights

so doesnt get to use the arguement of the first ammendment. has to blindly follow the rules of the adults that have all the power and control of those under 18

[BuyingThyme]

5. In dealing with the First Amendment,

the first thing you do is ask about the person's religion?

Maybe you should read that First Amendment.

[Yupster]

7. Here would be my line of questioning...

There are two parts...

Part one - Ask him if he thought there would be anything wrong with a student wearing a shirt that said "Kill Mrs. Wright, the science teacher". Ask a few more horrendous examples like that. The point is to get him to admit that there is such a thing as clothing which should be banned.

Part two is to give him situations where decisions or judgement calls have to be made by a principal. A snow storm, cold, but not too icy. Who should make the call, the students or the principal? The maintenance budget? For the smooth running of the school, should the wall be repaired, or ten extra parking spaces built? Who should make the judgement call.

The point is to get him to admit that for the school to function smoothly, the principal will sometimes have to make judgement calls. Of course many people will disagree with them, but that's what he/she's there for.

Then you put the two points together.

So Jimmy. You agree that there is such a thing as bannable clothing. You agree that for the smooth running of the school the principal must use her judgement to make calls.

Isn't what this case is all about is that the principal made a judgement call and you don't like it? Well you know Jimmy - that happens a lot to all of us in our lives. We all have people over us, mostly good honest men and women like principal Smith, and they're making the best calls they can. Sometimes they'll make calls we agree with. Sometimes they'll make calls we disagree with, but you know what...


When a principal like Mrs Smith, who's been doing this job well for 10 years and has devoted her whole life to educating children first as a reading teacher, then a department head, then a principal makes a call like this, she's thinking of which decision will help her school run best so that 400 children can learn to the best of their abilities. That's a whole lot more reponsibility than a student who really wants to wear a certain shirt one day.

So how about giving Mrs. Smith a little help, try to make her job a little easier, trust the judgement of a life-long educator, serve your punishment, and in the future, try to be a force for helping your school run better, not trying to put unnecessary controversies in front of kids trying to learn.

What do you think???

[TexasSissy]

9. I don't think you can ask him about God, can you? I mean, what does that

have to do with anything?

I assume you're going to try to win on the basis of separation of church and state...religious or similar attire is not allowed? If so, it doesn't really matter what he says about his beliefs about Satan. What matters is that "Satan" on the t-shirt represents a religious-type expression....not allowed in school. I mean...even if I say I don't believe in God, I STILL can't wear a t-shirt that has God-religious sayings on it, can I?

So I would ask him:
1. What exactly is the expression on the t-shirt you were wearing?
2. Were you, in fact, wearing that t-shirt on (state the date)?
3. Have you ever been a Satan-worshiper? (he'll say no, probably)
4. But you do know know that there are Satan-worshipers in the country, just as there are people who follow the Christian faith and other religions?
5. You do know that the rules adopted by the school board, and the laws of this country, prohibit the wearing of religious articles at school, don't you?
6. Were you told on the day that you wore the shirt to go home and change? (I'm assuming this happened, and he refused, which was why he was expelled?)
7. Who told you? When? Where were you when he told you that?
8. What did you say when (George) told you to go home and change your shirt?
9. I see. And did you go home and change your shirt that day at all?
10. So you refused to change your shirt, even though your teacher, George, informed you that you were in violation of the school's rules by wearing that shirt?

(If there's a different basis for the violation, other than separation of church and state, then never mind!)

[TexasSissy]

10. I might add here that....middle aged person that I am...it's a little late

to BEGIN preparing for the mock trial, isn't it?

[zooloobush]

11. I am off to bed soon but.

Kick this for Bama!!! Good luck.

[southlandshari]

14. Welcome to DU, zooloobush!

From another Alabama Duer!

Shari

[newyawker99]

15. Hi zooloobush!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[beyurslf]

12. I would start by asking him if he knows the dress code and understands

disruptive attire is not permitted.

[kodi]

13. schools/govt. has a responsibility to maintain order

one could claim that the wearing of that shirt could be an act that instigates violence.

on the other hand the federal govt. let nazis hold a march thru a neighborhood of survivors of the holocaust in skokey IL in 1978.

the fulcrum on the debate is whether or not the state has a claim to maintain order that overrides 1st amendment rights.

holmes's example of a cry of "fire" is apropos, but you have to establish that there was a clear and present danger if the kid was allowed to wear the shirt.

you could ask the judges if it would make any difference if someone had already been provoked to violence by a like display or if a recognizable threat of violence had been received if the kid wore the shirt.

drive the issue to the point where a judge has to decide whether the shirt wearing was okay in all situations, or if not, what circumstances or situation would it be legal and conversely what was special about the situation where it was not legal.

[southlandshari]

16. Report in, son!

How did it go? I thought about you today, and hope it went well. You've got a big "family" here at DU and many of us would love to hear about your experience today.

We NEED more young people like you out there!

Love,
"Mom"

[BamaLefty]

18. Good News

The trial was moved to Monday.

Thanks for the insight guys! And yes, I had started preparing before the eve of the event as one member alluded to.

[Toots]

17. Most schools have some sort of dress code

I would think it would be pretty elementary. He is penalized for not following school policy. It has absolutely nothing to do with religion. Otherwise there could be a discrimination problem. Federal law says you can not discriminate on the basis of religion. He has every bit as much right to worship Satan as the others have to worship who/whatever...