I Hate Liberals

[WilliamPitt]

It's funny.

Find me a liberal cause and I'm probably behind it.

Save Social Security? I'm there.

Save ANWR? I'm with you.

Equal rights across the board for tax-paying freedom-loving American citizens who happen to be gay and want to get married just like every other tax-paying freedom-loving American citizen gets to do without a second thought from anyone? I'm there.

Find me a liberal policy initiative and I'm probably behind it. Health care is a right easily attained by each and every single American once health care no longer exists as a for-profit business? Yo.

The military and their sucker-fish defense contractors don't need eight billion gazillion dollars for a missile shield in space that can stop exactly no rogue airplanes in metropolitan airspace while millions go hungry all across the land? Yup.

Public schools need billions of dollars to stop the wretched fact that millions of children gratduate without knowing what the Supreme Court does for a living, to stop the push towards teaching our kids that creationism is the only truth, to stop the creation of stupid people as a matter of policy, said policy holding that stupid people make obedient consumers and compliant workers? Indeed.

Find me a cause, a policy initiative, a white paper, an idea, a belief, a theory or a protest that stems from the liberal philosophy. Chances are huge I'm on your side.

But man. Man o man. I hate liberals.

I agree with so much of what other liberals believe. All day, every day. But it seems like all I do is fight with liberals. I can't have a mildly divergent opinion on a matter of import without being called a Republican, or a Freeper, or a sellout, or a whore. If I'm a Christian, I empower the fundamentalist Right. If I'm an atheist, I'm bashing, period.

Two examples of this happened tonight, though I could give 200 examples if I felt like writing all night. These two will do. Example One: I was honored tonight to introduce Dahr Jamail at a talk in Boston. Jamail, if you don't know, got sick of the corporate news coverage of Iraq and went there himself. He got into Fallujah and let the world know what happened there. He is an amazing human being.

They gave me 15 minutes to say my thing and then introduce him. In my wee speech, I dared to forge beyond the self-righteous boundaries of 'Out Now!' to suggest the bare outlines of a plan on how to get out as soon as possible.

I used Howard Dean as a foil; he recently said we have to stay there, voicing the well-reasoned but argument-I-disagree-with 'Pottery Barn' argument. I think we can get out, we have to get out, but some kind of coherent plan/timeline is needed, because 'Out Now!' makes a good slogan but slogans don't make coherent policy.

I called Dean a hero before I went into this, because he is, but this is more to do with example two, to follow. The point for now is that I called him a hero before I said I disagreed with him. We need to get out of Iraq, I said. As soon as possible.

About halfway through my bare outline - somewhere between getting the Houston contractors out so Iraqis can actually work for pay and invigorate their economy, and get the UN and the Arab League to create a massive mostly-Arab force to take over security/police duty so the Americans can be cycled out en masse and sent home - I met the hecklers.

They were both white, both around my mid-30s age, both with those white-and-black Palestilian militatnt scarves wrapped around their necks. One of them yelled "Shut up with your pro-war bullshit!" Another wadded up the program and threw it at me. They kept this up for a while. As this wasn't my show, but Dahr Jamail's show, I worked through the last two minutes of my introduction of him without starting a shouting match with these two. It galled, yes, but wasn't appropriate to deal with it.

Example number two happened when I went out to have a smoke. A nicely dressed suburban fellow followed me out, and proceeded to scold me. Don't call people heroes, he said with index finger a-wavin'. I had called Dean a hero, you see. I had described the life and death of Marla Ruzicka in my speech, who went to Iraq to count the civilian dead and died there, and called her a hero. When I introduced Jamail, who went to the most dangerous place on earth so we could get the truth, I called him a hero.

Don't call people heroes, he said with index finger a-wavin'. It makes other people feel bad.

Liberals complain. They go to meetings with other liberals and listen to speeches filled with facts they knew before they got there, and complain to the person sitting next to them who already knows what they know and is ready to rock and roll with their own complaining.

All too often, liberals would rather complain and feel good about themselves than choke down the hard stones that sometimes have to be swallowed when seeking a solution that might actually work.

Liberals like to fight. They get into a room, either real or electronic, and wind up in huge, epic arguments about this or that while skating past the fact that the person they are arguing with and insulting agrees with about 90% of what they agree with. They forget the old rule: If you find yourself screaming in rage at someone who agrees with 90% of what you agree with, you might just be a zealot and therefore no good to anyone but yourself.

Conservatives used to be like liberals. They were out of power and fighting amongst themselves, the Birchers v. the Rockefellars v. the Nixonites v. the Reaganites v. the Fundamentalists v. the Internationalists. Somewhere along the line, they figured out how to quell all that, and whoosh! they were in power. I enjoy disliking conservatives and do not enjoy hating liberals, but since they both apparently share so many common characteristics these days, I am helpless before the tide.

I hate liberals. They do not get along, they enjoy disagreement for the sake of disagreement all too often, they are so hard to meld into a coalition that no one has ever, ever, ever managed to meld them into an effective coalition for any significant period of time. Liberals are the reason liberals lose elections nowadays.

I'm a liberal. I believe in the cause, the causes, the policy ideas. We ran the country for years once upon a time while winning World War II and salvaging the national economy by coming up with ways to help the helpless. Imagine it. The things we can do for the good of this country and the world positively boggle the mind.

But I hate liberals, because they won't let that happen. They make me absolutely crazy.

========

The preceding was truth-cum-sarcasm combined with massive exaggeration. If you don't like it, if it pissed you off, then it was probably about you. Cope.

[mark414]

1. fuck exaggeration

i thought you were spot on

[shadowknows69]

89. ditto

[BillyDoc]

171. Me too, and I wrote a SCATHING essay about it

called "A Nation of Kitty Genovese's Neighbors"

It's about an incident where 36 people (and I use that term very loosly) watched from the safety of their apartments as a young woman was murdered. And did nothing. Didn't want to get involved.

Would you agree that a person so inclined defines himself very clearly . . . and the definition is not good?

The essay is here: http://breakthelink.org/The%20reason%20why.php

If anyone can come up with a way to ACTUALLY motivate . . . I sure would like to hear it!

[woo me with science]

180. yep

note my low post count. primarily due to a reluctance to be attacked for my somewhat moderate views. but i still love DU and need to be here.

[mark414]

193. it's all good

i'm as far left as they come but there's nothing dumber than eating your own. that's why i'm not as politically active as i used to be; it seems i almost loathe self-righteous liberals as much as i loathe conservatism

haha, the only thing on this board that really makes me mad is when people trash hip hop music or complain about "reverse racism"

other than that i'm down for whatever

welcome to DU, BTW

[woo me with science]

253. ha ha

thanks for the welcome. actually i don't like hip hop music, but it has nothing to do with social issues. i also can't stand country or atonal jazz. i just have very sensitive ears i guess.

thanks for the welcome. it's always nice to meet another person who doesn't believe in eating their own.

[moddemny]

249. same here.....

note my even lower post count..... always people waiting to jump out and call you a "repub-lite".

[woo me with science]

252. it's nice to meet you.

you probably hate me already, because of what i wrote down there about repressed memories. but i am always happy to meet another moderate dem.

[moddemny]

263. I don't hate you.........

unless you think Clinton, Biden, Gore, Clark would make bad candidates in 2008 because Howard Dean calls them all bush-lites.

[cry baby]

2. It doesn't make me mad that you hate liberals...

it makes me sad.

Liberals are smarter than conservatives and like to discuss issues. Passions run high in these times. Hope you don't get flamed.

P.S. good luck at PDA

Edited to say that Dahr Jamail has not received nearly enough coverage. The truth hurts and won't be reported.

[shadowknows69]

90. "Liberals are smarter than conservatives and like to discuss issues."

any sweeping generalization gets us nowhere. I've met some abyssmally stupid liberals. My best friend (neo republican) is one of the most intelligent people I know but right now can't see the forest for the trees. Truly brainwashed. Never a good thing on either side of the coin. An open mind remains forever fluid in its openess.

[cry baby]

107. My experiences are different than yours.

But I'll try to be open to smart, well read conservatives.

[daydreamer]

177. You call that intelligent?

quote: can't see the forest for the trees
If you can be brainwashed, you are not that intelligent.

[woo me with science]

184. How many people here....

believe fervently in pseudoscience like astrology or crystals or repressed memories or widespread satanic ritual abuse (let the flaming begin). Go visit the some of the forums on this website and you will see that it is very possible for Democrats to get caught up in ideas and theories that are patently absurd. Even otherwise intelligent people must be educated. And
sometimes education takes real-life experience, beyond the book-learning. I have known fervent and highly intelligent conservatives who got that way by reading. Much of conservative philosophy sounds very intelligent and persuasive in the abstract--e.g., who can argue with the abstract concepts of having people pay their debts and take responsibility for their own lives? But once these textbook conservatives got out in the real world and actually MET the people who are struggling to raise their families and make a living, they crossed over. Intelligence is not the be-all and end all here.

[daydreamer]

219. Logic is the key for intelligence

If you believe in paying off your debt, then you should not believe that the CEOs can make millions while the stockholders get screwed. You can not have it both ways. You should not believe that the fat cats can keep their mansions while filing for bankruptcy while Joe has to use the equity of his house to pay for his medical bill.

[moddemny]

248. repressed memories...

are not pseudoscience....... they are a survival mechanism

[woo me with science]

251. sorry...

the concepts of repression and dissociation go against everything we know about how the human brain actually processes memories. they are pure psuedoscience, and the "research" out there supporting them has either been debunked over the past 10 years, or is so methodologically awful that people haven't even bothered to debunk it. they are also one of the worst frauds perpetrated on people in the history of psychology. i know you disagree, and i am very sorry that you are somehow caught up in this movement, because it ruins lives. but science says you are wrong.

[moddemny]

262. I am not caught up in a movement.....

I am not sure exactly what movement you are referring too and I realize there are many abusive/misleading forms of psychotherapy out there. I think I am getting lumped into some category of belief system that you may be familiar with that I am not specifically referring too. I simply think that humans can repress memories that are too painful or traumatic in order to get on with life. I don't think it is farfetched and science can keep researching. I realize that there are therapies out there that probably claim to systematically retrieve them and cannot. I was speaking very very broadly without a particular movement in mind.

[shadowknows69]

187. If you can be brainwashed You are not that intelligent.

Sorry but that statement is naive. Was everyone in Nazi Germany unintelligent? Was every one at Jonestown? Waco? The halls of congress? Being lead by a bad philosophy can happen to anyone. Intelligence is a treatment but not always the cure.

[daydreamer]

218. There is a difference

If you choose to watch Fox and close your mind to all other sources of information, then it is your fault that you are brainwashed. In Hitler's Germany there was no alternative media allowed.

Plus you can be intelligent and evil; likewise you can be simple-minded but kind. The moral positions you take have nothing to do with the level of intelligence.

[Romulus Quirinus]

190. That isn't very fair

Anyone can be brainwashed. History provides enough evidince of that. Remember that some of the greatest minds in the world were at one time members of the Nazi party and were doing their best to give Hitler an atomic bomb.

To Wlll Pitt: Spot on man!

[iconoclastic cat]

203. Read about brainwashing.

I think you'll find that the right pressures and circumstances can break down anyone's personality. When that happen, they can be rebuilt to order.

[daydreamer]

221. Generally you can say that Bush voters are idiots

How many at Harvard voted for Bush? 10%?

[ProfessorGAC]

217. That's Hilarious!

Really funny! Your really smart friend has been brainwashed! I see.

Get a psych book regarding conditioning. You will find it is VERY, VERY, VERY hard to brainwash a very smart person! VERY Hard!

Methinks you may overestimate your friend. Of course, that's what friends do. Good for you for ignoring your friend's faults! You should. But, don't lose perspective.
The Professor

[Writer]

3. Round of applause!

:woohoo: :applause: :yourock:

I am sick and tired of purist reactionaries. We're all the same color, just of different shades.

[JohnnyCougar]

14. "I'm sick and tired of purist reactionaries"

Don't say that around here! ;-) You freeper!

[Writer]

18. After I'm done with classes next Friday

I will repeat it again. I have had my fill with the tyranny of the majority. Viva la difference!

[G_j]

30. however

most of us have seen harsh sweeping labels such as "purist reactionaries" break down communication also.

Constructive communication is an art for sure.

[Writer]

35. I am just as entitled to my opinion.

I am sorry if that term sounds offensive, but I think Will's point about the zealotry on the part of some liberals has some bearing in that statement.

[G_j]

43. I am simply discussing

the "art" of communicating, certainly not saying you can't have an opinion. What I said was that "labels" CAN at times interfere with communication.
I have no idea how you communicate with other "liberals" and I wasn't specifically criticizing you.
I've seen the label "purist" used here as a club in the past.

[WilliamPitt]

47. Fer the luvva God

would ya please not prove my point for me with the arguin'?

:P

[Az]

48. Hey! Not everyone bel ... er ...

nevermind. :evilgrin:

[G_j]

52. funny

I thought we were discussing how we can communicate in more productive ways. ..silly me

[WilliamPitt]

53. I was teasing

[G_j]

60. cool, but seriously

I share your passion for finding ways in which we can focus our passions to GET THINGS DONE!

I have spent some time in "creative problem solving" and boy is communication a BIG part of it.
We tried video taping some of our discussions and observing how we interact. It was a real eye opener for most.
I could see myself 'not listening' or dismissing another's idea without even realizing it. I definitely believe in practice.
In the end it is just so crucial to keep our eyes on the prize and put aside our self importance, bruised egos etc. The future is just too important.

[Writer]

79. I think the name-calling is like a plague...

One poster lashes out at another, and that poster gets angry and retaliates.

As you can see, I'm fairly new. I have been hanging about in the lounge as of late, because I really have found little value conversing with others who simply will not accept an alternative opinion. I have had very very reasonable posts turn into flame wars simply because I have stated an unpopular opinion.

I have been attacked, called an apologist, a freeper-lite, and some other unsuitable names. It seems Will here has encountered this attitude in person, and I happen to agree with him that this type of zealotry is destructive to the party.

So, instead of calling them "purist reactionaries," shall I say that they are, perhaps, quick to the trigger? Orthodox in their stances? A bit ruffled in the feathers? On edge? What more polite label shall I use? Because the point here is not to comment on the person, but the person's actions.

And it is the actions here that are the problem, not the individuals.

Writer.

[G_j]

98. that sort of thing

(name calling) just leads away from intelligent conversation or brings it to a crashing halt. Also remember, here at DU it is against the rules. So don't hesitate to alert on it.
You can also put an individual on ignore.

Having an alternative opinion should be able to foster lively debate as opposed to poop slinging.

[NAO]

4. I agree with 90% of your post...

but I will fight you tooth and nail on that other 10%.

Besides, I already knew all your points about liberals BEFORE I read your post.

Nuke the Unborn Gay Whales for Jesus. Peace Out.

[evlbstrd]

71. It's Nuke the Unborn Gay BABY Whales for Jesus

Haven't heard that one in a while. Thanks!

[MisterP]

191. quite right, NAO

[CaliforniaPeggy]

5. I couldn't agree with you more, Will...

This is very well put: organized, coherent, logical, TRUE. You don't really need my praise...I just wanted to give it. It makes me feel good to give you input...

GREAT JOB...The phrase "we are our own worst enemies" comes to mind, for me.






:kick:

[Bouncy Ball]

6. Well, I'm going to go out on a limb here

and take a big chance with saying this, but, um, I think you'd LIKE the liberals in my neck of the woods. It's all I could think of as I was reading that piece.

NOT that northeastern liberals are bad or wrong or anything like that! I'm NOT saying that, just so everyone is clear. I don't want to get into a regionalistic pissing contest.

But I think there must be some difference when you are liberal where you are treated like shit every day for being liberal. Where you have inadvertently learned to whisper and speak in codes to identify each other. Where just attending a protest is an exhilarating, life-altering exercise in free speech and not another ho-hum any day of the week protest.

Dunno. But it seems to make a difference. Not that I like living under these conditions, and I certainly don't want to romanticize anything. But it seems to change the landscape ever so much.

[G_j]

49. my experience is similar

in general the progrssives/liberals/activists I interact with work pretty well together, despite a myriad of differences.

[fudge stripe cookays]

135. WTG girl!

Up northeast way, it must be a pissing contest to see who can be more enlightened and liberal. I won't mince words.

Down here, just seeing a progressive bumper sticker in traffic, giving the other driver a peace sign or a thumbs up and seeing smiles all around is enough to keep us going for a couple of days.

Or like Bouncy says-- just going to a protest can be exhilarating. That's the only word for it. Finding like-minded friends down here is like finding a life perserver. They keep you afloat, and give you your sanity back just when you need it most.

Yeah, I was offended reading your post. Not because I enjoy being holier than thou about my attitudes, but because it's fucking HARD being a liberal down here. If you're so blase' about it, why don't you try moving down for awhile? Boston would loook pretty great by comparison. I give you a coupla weeks, tops.

We don't compete with each other down here, we work together. For as much bashing as we Texans hear on this board about ourselves, maybe that's one thing that Texas DOES have over blue states.

FSC

[eridani]

215. That's a good point. Sheer numbers can lead--

--to the formation of antagonistic sub-subcultures. If you don't have the numbers, you have to get along. Me, I live in a place where socialist mini-parties hand out literature at Kucinich rallies explaining how the Kucinich campaign was a dastardly plot to co-opt righteous revolutionary sentiment into the Democratic party.

[fudge stripe cookays]

223. Holy crap!

What, Berkeley? Santa Cruz?

See, I just don't understand that. I guess I'm of the "Why can't we all just get along?" set.

I mean, my county chair bugs the living crap out of me sometimes, but she's one of the few Democrats out here, and she IS a friend of mine. I couldn't handle people like your pamphlet people.

FSC

[eridani]

238. Seattle.

Like Berkeley and Santa Cruz in many ways.

I asked the pamphleteer why her party never considered running anyone for water or sewer commissioner, or school board. Her answer--why would we want to do that? She had never heard of Milwaukee's 'sewer socialists,' a 30 year run of elected socialist mayors.

[sparky_in_ma]

186. So now it's O.K to be hatin

us northeast liberals?:rofl: It really make's Will's point, half your post was an attempt not to piss anyone off about the rest of it.(I understand what you were saying):thumbsup:

[Bouncy Ball]

200. No, in fact I went out of my WAY to say

I was not trying to get into a regionalistic pissing match.

[sparky_in_ma]

201. My fault

I wasn't clear with my humor. I was pointing out that there actually was a need to feel you had to go out of your way to avoid people getting pissed. I agreed with your post and KNOW you weren't hating on us.:D

[Bouncy Ball]

202. Oh!!!

Well now that's MY fault, sorry! Duh. Thanks!

[sparky_in_ma]

206. It's cool.

:pals:

[G_j]

7. not exactly in the sense you are talking about here

but it seems almost mandatory to post Phil Ochs at times like this.

http://users.powernet.co.uk/hack/sleaze/love_me_liberal.html

Love Me, I'm a Liberal

By Phil Ochs
(Born 1940, died 1976)

I cried when they shot Medgar Evers
Tears ran down my spine
I cried when they shot Mr. Kennedy
As though I'd lost a father of mine
But Malcolm X got what was coming
He got what he asked for this time
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I go to civil rights rallies
And I put down the old D.A.R.
I love Harry and Sidney and Sammy
I hope every coloured boy becomes a star
But don't talk about revolution
That's going a little bit too far
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I cheered when Humphrey was chosen
My faith in the system restored
I'm glad the commies were thrown out
of the AFL-CIO board
I love Puerto Ricans and Negros
as long as they don't move next door
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

The people of old Mississippi
Should all hang their heads in shame
I can't understand how their minds work
What's the matter don't they watch Les Crain?
But if you ask me to bus my children
I hope the cops take down your name
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I read New Republic and Nation
I've learned to take every view
You know, I've memorized Lerner and Golden
I feel like I'm almost a Jew
But when it comes to times like Korea
There's no one more red, white and blue
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I vote for the Democratic Party.
They want the U.N. to be strong
I go to all the Pete Seeger concerts
He sure gets me singing those songs
I'll send all the money you ask for
But don't ask me to come on along
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

Once I was young and impulsive
I wore every conceivable pin
Even went to the socialist meetings
Learned all the old union hymns
But I've grown older and wiser
And that's why I'm turning you in
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

[AnnitaR]

8. See your ban on GD & GD Politics didn't last long!

;-)
Nice to have you back.

Yep us liberals do a really good job of eating our own. Pubs don't and that's why we get the shit kicked outta us sometimes.

[REP]

9. How Dare You Have An Opinion That Might Offend Someone, Somewhere

That's not very progresssive of you. A better person would have acknowledged that while Dean, Jamail and Ruzicka took extraordinary chances that could be considered heroic, everyobdy is heroic just for getting up in the morning (and those people who get up later are heroes too - hell, we're all heroes!).

[Pooka Fey]

243. Hee Hee Hee :-)

Wish I could have said it first.

[bridgit]

10. "They do not get along...

they enjoy disagreement for the sake of disagreement all too often..."

but 'liberals' (and d. brown laid out too likely a synopsis in da vinci code as to the subliminal neo-take on the stigma), and i'm beginning to shun the term for its Vandalous graffiti alone; are in no way as insufferably pissy & mean spirited as conservatives shunning that term as well for many of the same reasons.

when approaching the end of dated terms and i do say the sooner the better awake me. soon thereafter, 'things' & 'stuff' both will begin to get accomplished once again imo

[Jesus Saves]

11. Are you serious?

"Don't call people heroes, he said with index finger a-wavin'. It makes other people feel bad."

Someone actually said that? WTF?

I would of wanted to whack him upside the head.

[grace0418]

123. I bet he gets mad when teachers use red ink, too.

The only response I think I could make to that comment is "get over yourself, please."

[EST]

12. Yup

[Gelliebeans]

13. I agree Will

I don't always agree with you but I don't need to call it out to attention.

I sometimes think that we nit-pick too much or smaller things only to let the big ones get away because of disorganization

Good post though

[Jesus Saves]

15. Hell is other people.

How true is that?

[JohnnyCougar]

16. Yes, Will, you nailed it.

Even intelligent calls for order get locked for turning into flame wars around here. It's absolutely pathitic.

[Az]

17. It should be easy

As you say we agree on about 90% of the issues. So it should be easy. But its not. Its never been easy and its not going to get easy any time soon.

The right has in many ways a far easier task. They are looking to dismantle the advances they find troubling of the past few centuries. Corporate regulation. Civil rights. You know the things we work so hard to build up.

Destroying is always easier than building. When building a complex thing it is necissary to have an organized and well laid out plan. You have to struggle to keep to the plan and deal with unexpected problems along the way. Its not easy.

But to destroy a thing you can simply go in swinging. There are a multitude of ways to bring a structure down. And if it is a structure in the process of being built the options are all the more ripe. It is the easiest thing in the world to disrupt the progressive people trying to build a complex structure.

Add to this complexity the fact that not everyone has the same vision for the structure. If consensus is not reached between those performing the contruction dissent may arrise that causes some to sabotage the project. Or they may derail the project in middevelopment to demand their view be placed in it.

Its not easy. Building things. Even when we all agree on 90% of the project. But things still get done. We still make progress. Because we do agree on a great number of things.

Not only do we get things done. But if we put our minds to it we can even increase our agreement with each other. By consistantly communcating with each other and coming to understand our differences as well as our similarities we can find ways to compromise and build bridges between the gaps.

It should be easy. But its not. But the only way its going to get done is if we do it together. Even with our disagreements and petty differences. We can learn to overcome those. But only if we want to.

[FizzFuzz]

216. again a great post from you Az

can I put you o n my buddy list? Not that I ever DO anything with my buddy list, but what the heck.....

I think there's a parallel here with the description of Repub politics being a top-down arrangement, the party appealing to those in power whose interests are to hold onto that power and control the masses of people they depend on.

The Democrat party is a bottom-up party of masses of varied people, many of whom don't have the experience of working together, since we are somewhat separated by location and "separate" interests. I put "separate" in quotes because at heart, Democratic interests are NOT isolated discrete "special interests", but varied expressions of what I think I'd like to call One Great Dream: To do what's Right.

Well, now that the word "Right" has been appropriated , perhaps its best to say, "to do what honors the dignity of human beings". Hmm, I need to work on that, it doesn't have a ring to it.

[More Than A Feeling]

19. I agree with you 100% which means...Nominated!

Although, I have to say, you haven't started any flamewars yet, so you may be wrong.;-)

[WilliamPitt]

20. You talkin' to me?

No flamewars?

Feh.

I haven't started any flamewars because I've been avoiding this goddam forum like the plague.

:)

[More Than A Feeling]

22. I meant in this thread.

:-)

[Writer]

27. It's called the DU Lounge

Like that little, rusted trailer in the back... our sanctuary during exile.

[MisterP]

192. for someone avoding the forum like the plage you shure've been posting

here a lot...
:evilgrin: ;)

[two gun sid]

21. Well, some good points here....

I hate liberals also. They lack the courage of their convictions.


How does it bring us closer together by posting: "If you don't like it, if it pissed you off, then it was probably about you. Cope." at the end of your rant?

[WilliamPitt]

25. Eh?

:P

I'm gonna try to bring you closer?

That's a laugh.

No attempt in DU history to 'bring us closer' has succeeded. Ever. Not once.

So you take this how you like to. It is what it is. End of file.

[Syrinx]

23. I'm going to reread that to make sure, but...

I think I totally agree with you.

Don't mean to be a suck-up (because there's a lot of sucking up to you around here), but how did you get to be so darn smart?

(Geez that sounded totally suck-uppy.)

[WilliamPitt]

28. Had a bit to do

with the face in your avatar and the state in your sig.

:)

[Syrinx]

34. what a nice thing to say

:thumbsup:

[WilliamPitt]

45. Grandmaw, granddad and my father

and a lot of time between Montgomery and Decatur.

:)

[Syrinx]

54. if you ever visit Tuscaloosa, PM me

I'd like to meet you.

EDIT: Or Birmingham, or Columbus, or Jackson, or Montgomery, etc...

[WilliamPitt]

55. I lived in Tuscaloosa for a while

Right near the campus.

[Syrinx]

67. it's a nice area

(If you overlook the crime.) Lot's of pretty trees and really quite tame squirrels and pretty, historical buildings. I wouldn't mind living there, but I'm more out in the country.

[Robeson]

37. Nicely done.

[RoyGBiv]

24. Good piece ...

I have a running "gag" with a friend of mine via e-mail. We're often annoyed by the very same things you mentioned, although I extend it out to include some less glaringly political issues such as support for Open Source software, GNU/Linux in particularly, and the like. These e-mail rants we send to each other begin with some variation of "I hate liberals ..." even though we're the two most radically liberal people we know.

In the end, though, we realize we're describing ourselves because we're all guilty of it in one way or another.

[xmas74]

26. I agree w/ you.

I get tired of reading the pissing contests on GD and GDP in reference to who is the biggest liberal. There are times that I log off of here w/ a headache that no amount of Excedrin will kill.
We are all in the same boat, we tend to have similar views on key issues and points. Why the f*ck do we sit around and fight about the wording of a post all the time? Can't we all just unite and actually take action, instead of sitting around and b*tching about it?
If we can't figure out how to get along, how the heck will we be able to take some Senate seats back next year? (I live in a state that needs the extra attention right now. We could feasibly take one seat if we worked at it hard enough instead of sitting around and insulting each other).

[Heidi]

29. "Liberals like to fight."

Boy, ain't that the truth. I don't hate anyone, but I'm getting sick and damn tired of factions in our movement cannibalizing one another at the expense of progress and meaningful change.

End of short rant.

[QC]

97. Too bad they'd rather fight each other than the reactionaries. n/t

[Clarkie1]

31. Best post I've read all night. n/t

[LoZoccolo]

32. Impari ottenere che cosa desiderate.

I've brought back my little slogan I used to have in my signature in honor of this post.

"Learn to get what you want."

I do have hope that little by little, certain people will become conscious of the sort of things you point out, remove themselves from the riot, and coalesce outside of it. Someone was on here earlier saying that DU was having some sort of depression, that people weren't posting as much, and I think it's people reclaiming their activist time. I think it's actually encouraging and healthy to see people leave here, because I think a lot of them are going on to do actual things. Even Skinner left the riot, in a way. If DU serves as a springboard to activism in an odd way like that, to demonstrate the destructive power of idle exaggerated whining, it's still a springboard.

[GirlinContempt]

33. Another job well done....er....said....

:woohoo:

[Djinn]

36. yep

it’s terrible when liberals attack each other for having slightly divergent opinions calling each other “self-righteous” is an example of it.

[expatriate]

38. Thanks, WilliamPitt

One thing I've learned over more than thirty years of being politically involved - most of those who label themselves as "liberal" are anything but. Intolerance takes many forms, and it seems that many human beings have an insatiable desire to conform to some kind of standard, and the hell with anyone else who fails to do so.

At this point, whenever I hear the word "liberal" all I can see is a snake swallowing its own tail, or a scorpion stinging itself to death.

[Spider Jerusalem]

73. Reminds me of this quote from George Carlin:

"I love individuals. I hate groups of people. I hate a group of people with a common purpose, because pretty soon they have little hats, and armbands, and fight songs, and a list of people they're going to visit at 3AM."

[XemaSab]

165. Amen to that

There are many so-called liberals who are as intolerant towards divergent viewpoints as the worst freepers.

Furthermore, if it's one thing I can't stand, it's an underinformed liberal zealot trying to tell me I shouldn't eat honey, or use paper or wood products, or wear cotton, or wear wool, or wear polyester, or eat conventionally farmed food, or eat food grown more than 200 miles away, or add a modest amount of nitrogen to my otherwise organically grown corn in my back yard, or use any petroleum products, or any number of other infractions against the environment or human rights, or any other sacred cow.

Fer chrissake, I'm a vegetarian and I only got a car this year when I moved to the mountains where there's no public transportation. I grow a vegetable garden every year and my kitchen is a horrible mess due to the MOUNTAINS of recycling piling up. I don't own a TV. I got in trouble with my boss a few weeks ago for trying to move a gopher from out in front of a tractor.

And what's more, half the time you ask eco-freaks for the scientific basis for their arguments, and they can't provide one, or it's totally confused. They're basically parroting what they heard someone else saying. (Which isn't to say that there aren't valid scientific arguments for the above issues). But it's usually the so-called activists who are totally uninformed about whatever it is they're berating you for.

Heinous.

[Lorien]

39. That's what I've been saying for several years now

I've gotten to the point where I just drop the argument if I get nowhere with someone in a post or two. So many argue to feel superior or clever and it doesn't advance anything; neither understanding nor the cause. Those people I usually just put on ignore and move on. Life is too short and there's too much to be done. My activism is now limited to writing letters and signing petitions (I've lost count of all the groups I "take action" for; TrueMajority, Progressive Majority, Planned Parenthood, The Sierra club, the Union of Concerned Scientists, MoveOn, NARAL, The ACLU, The Audubon society, etc. etc.). It always seems like I can get more done when no organization of others is required, which is disturbing. :-(

[Tux]

40. United Liberals of America

New party, new leadership, new ideas.

To me, both Republicans and Democrats are out of date and out of touch with reality. What is needed is a new paradigm. Merge some ideas from libertarianism (very few since I still want laws and such) and liberalism (minus communism) with a touch of small town USA (conservatives got that one) plus environmental concerns from the Greens and a new view can be formed. One that focuses on not only the working class but also the whole of America. Fundies and some liberal Christians feel left out. Bring them in and let them share their ideas. There are problems that need solving and bitching about judges from one side and bitching about gay marriage from the other isn't going to solve them: our environment is dying and we will go with it.

Everyone put aside their differences, hold onto their pet causes, and unite to get our nation back from fundies, neocons, and corrupt CEOs. Whether Christian, Deist, atheist, Wiccan, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist or whatnot, we need to understand that we all have the same goal and beliefs: a better world can be made so people can live in peace (Christianity), justice can be served to criminals (Islam), suffering can be relieved (Buddhist), nature can be recovered (Wiccan/pagan), and create a future our grandchildren can be proud of (all).

[tkmorris]

41. You got it all wrong

You see, you ARE a Liberal, and so am I, but those people you refer to are not. Republican pundits have spent a generation trying to turn "Liberal" into a dirty word, and doing so by claining that we are all like the people you describe.

Is Tom Delay a Conservative? I say no, he is rather a Christian Fundamentalist nutball. In the same fashion the people in your post are not Liberals, they are just loons whose insanity happens to manifest itself through their interest in leftist politics. Don't let the proverbial "them" define a word that belongs to us.

[WilliamPitt]

42. No, they're liberals

[Swamp Rat]

84. HA! I get it.

Because it was post #42. :D

[Az]

44. A liberal

Is determined by the notion that one tries to build up the society by a continuing process of improving it. A conservative attempts to hold and maintain a particular position or view.

There in lies the problem. A person can be a liberal and not share another liberals particular notion of what progress actually means.

[Lexingtonian]

46. well, see

My take, and experience, is that when I'm arguing with a selfprofessed liberal too vehemently usually one or the other of us is in fact taking the side of a latent (or overt) conservative p.o.v. Often it's because one side doesn't realize it, or- more disappointingly- there's a certain amount of bad faith involved.

The militant types- anarchist, Left, 'progressive', Naderite, Communist- almost invariably tend to give me grief of the kind. The peaceable kind is generally just happy for an intelligent conversation.

You've become a battlefield commander, Will. A lot of the soldiers- on both sides, in any and all units- are crappy fighting material. The trick to creating a crack unit is to pay equivalent attention and care to the 10-20% real fighters as well as the needs of the inept other 80-90%. Don't let them notice that you make the distinction, just act according to it and both groups will thank you for it- the fighters for acknowledging their role and ability, the inept for not demanding what they cannot usually deliver. They'll thank you by their behavior under fire.

The movie "Top Gun" is propagandistic Reaganite crap. But there is one good line and piece of advice in it, a real bottom line among serious men: "When you fly out to combat, do you want him with you?"

There is a Dilbert cartoon book entitled "Cancel All Meetings With Time-wasting Morons". I think of it a lot when I see nonproductive political masturb- uh, talking.

[LittleClarkie]

50. Robert Frost

"A liberal is a man too broadminded to take his own side in a quarrel."

My own pet name for what you describe: Lefty Freepers.

Courage, Mr. Pitt.

[donheld]

51. I hear ya Will

speak on.

[gumby]

56. You smoke cigarettes?

Please try to stop. neener, neener, neener.

If you got heckled it only means that you had a forum. Good for you.

The right is not unified. Listen to the Savage Weenie go after the PigMan. The thing is that the right figured out a fascist formula to unite enough voters to make a bloc. The people in power now are wacknuts who got there through fraud.

Don't forget that Bush LOST the last 2 elections. Who knows how many down-ticket elections were fixed too?

If some scream at you, you will be the better for being able to handle them. All people on stage get applause for adequately dealing with hecklers. Go to it!

[WilliamPitt]

57. Next time

It wasn't my party, so I didn't want to make a mess.

[Justitia]

58. I Hate Self-Loathing, Scolding Liberals

So sue me. :hide:

[Donald Ian Rankin]

181. Really?

I think self-loathing is a good thing - certainly, it's far better than having an inflated sense of self-esteem.

A £15 donation can save the life of a child in Africa. Today, I spent £15 on having my bicycle fixed, and £15 on printer paper. In these circumstances, I think a little self-loathing is in order, I'm afraid.

[mitchtv]

185. and I hate liberal bashers from rush on down

and mealy mouthed "progressives" who are afraid to say "liberal"

[Warren DeMontague]

59. So you strayed from the script and someone blew a gasket.

Happens to me all the time. See, depending on who you talk to, my "credentials" are questionable.. In 2000, I supported Al Gore, when clearly Ralph Nader was the integrity laden choice of the discerning scorched-Earth political purist. I've been told I must not be a real Democrat because I don't support PETA, I've been told I must be a reactionary, male chauvanist fascist because I don't think banning pictures of naked people fucking is the way to stop violence against women.

I'm not on board with the DLC gang because I support things like a single payer health care system, while my self-identification as a social libertarian (there's that dreaded "l" word, again!) seems to piss off the Che t-shirt crowd to no end.

Don't even get me started on the crap I catch from some quarters for supporting Israel's right to exist.

Funny thing is, though, I AM a liberal. And for all the like-herding-cats crap you have to go through building coalitions of funky, different groups with different agendas, that's the price you have to pay for a constituency that has brains and (cue ZZ Top) knows how to use 'em. There's a reason fundamentalists and right-wingers are so good at being in lock-step; all they have to do is turn on the AM radio and someone is there, telling them what to think today. Sure, back in the day, "conservatism" meant everything from Rockefeller to Goldwater, but it's also hardly any coincidence that BOTH of those dudes would easily fall into the moderate camp today.

Plus, the crazies on the right had eight years of the high unholy Clenis lording it over them like a giant satanic phallus in the WH, which provided a great motivator for them to put their shit aside. There are certainly fissures in today's GOP, and although 9-11 provided a respite for the inevitable fragmentation of their coalition, I think (next year's primary season will make this especially evident, I suspect) it can only hold so long.

We're constantly hearing about how much we're doing wrong, but I'm really not sure it's like that. Most Americans agree with most of our positions- that's reality, and that's why the GOP is so surprised when their constant ideological over-reach comes around and bites em on the ass.

And you're right, we have to think seriously about where to go from here in Iraq, and Howard Dean IS a hero.

Fuck those people.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

61. idealists make great activists but terrible leaders

if people understood how politics worked they would stop whining at the concession our leaders have had to make

[merh]

137. Amen.

The only sensible post in this thread.
Thank you. :hi:

[Carni]

164. I agree with you and with the original post

Everyone opposed to this bush reich needs to learn how to pick their arguments (myself included) or we will just continue to be screwed and maligned.

Right now all the pet causes and exploding egos are just fodder for the right winged media IMO.

I am not one of the more thoughtful or *deep thoughts* types and I frequently find myself being accused of being all sorts of things when I post.

From what I have seen out of this bush regime idealism and actually getting in office (notice I didn't say winning)do not mix.

[info being]

169. Not just politics, but in all areas of life

Leaders improve people's lives. They deliver solutions. They deal in reality, which is always imperfect. We deal in the intagible far too often.

[Kire]

62. you didn't get someone to "proof-listen" your speech, did you?

I'm right there, with you.

But, I see this as similar to fundies who preach on the street-corner and in White House press conferences:

Matthew 6:1-3
"Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward from your Father in heaven. 2Therefore, when you do a charitable deed, do not sound a trumpet before you as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory from men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 3But when you do a charitable deed, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing."

Good luck.

[vajraroshana]

65. You ARE a Liberal

and you've expressed liberalism very well.

You're pissed at our feckless "liberal" leaders, mostly, I think; as well you should be.

They've got to start actually hearing us at some point.

(great rant, btw, nominated)

(on edit, my reply was supposed to be to the original post, oops!)

[Wizard777]

63. Do you hate all of us?

Because that would be a damned liberal application of hatred. Conservatively speaking you might want to try hating two or three of us first to see how that goes. But hating just one of us would be the conservative ideal. If that works well then you could begin to expand your hatred of liberals while claiming to be reducing your hatred of liberals. Start the expansive conservative hatred program. Thats were you publicly encourage the expansion of the conservation of Hatred. "Hatred, save it for the enemy" could be the program's moto. So of course you never tell anyone the enemy is thier fellow liberal Americans. Most of all you don't want the Liberals to find out about the program. They would just start exploring the liberal uses of anger and probably end up just giving you a liberal ass kicking. Who needs that? Now I don't know about you but if I have to get my ass kicked. I want a conservative ass kicking. That's why I became a liberal. Well that and I like messing with the conservatives minds. It's fun to watch them implode.

[rman]

64. 3 out of a crowd... you love the rest of them?

does't look so bad.

[sandnsea]

66. This thread is hysterical

I gotta' watch this. I think it's going to be a laugh riot as it goes alone. One teeny tiff, one disagreement, one semi-pretentious explanation, and we're just getting started!! lol!

To your post:

:applause:

[NoSheep]

178. (munching)

:popcorn:

[MrScorpio]

68. If I was there, I'd be happy to kick their asses

Don't fuck with Pitt

[Bouncy Ball]

69. You know, now that I think about this,

it does seem odd to say you hate all liberals.

So if you are good on the issues, but hate the people, then I guess you need to avoid liberals in person and online, which of course means no more get togethers with other DUers at local watering holes.

[Borgnine]

70. Bravo.

It's a reason so many DUers only hang out in the Lounge now... every discussion in GD turns into a war over the simplest detail. It gets to be rather ridiculous.

[lady lib]

72. Those guys stepped over the line and had no right to

embarrass you and behave like assholes. Ditto the finger wagger. The liberals you're running into might be disagreeing for disagreement's sake, but they're also demonstrating that they feel comfortable enough with you to express their opinions (however inappropriately). And since you've gotta make due with the liberals you have, not the liberals you might want or wish to have...you might want to learn how to quickly disarm these guys when they start to heckle you. Comedians and politicians are great at this. Someone who gives frequent speeches should be able to help you, and with practice you'll become more confident and proactive (so say I from the comfort of my family room). :)

Good luck! I appreciate everything you're doing.

[Gemini Cat]

74. Yes!

Well said, I agree and thank-you for saying what I've been thinking for a long time.

[democracyindanger]

75. Yeah, but how do you feel about progressives?

Just kinda, sorta kidding. Sometimes it's funny to hear people label themselves "progressive" because it's supposed to be more liberal than liberal. Mostly it's annoying. But it's almost always about being more-liberal-than-thou.

[frustrated_lefty]

76. Will....

You know, sometimes you piss me off, but generally I read your thoughts and have the basic feeling that, "well, I agree with him, but I would argue nuances." Maybe I'm one of those crazy liberals? :)

I like a lot of what you write. Some, I'd argue on principle.

I am a liberal, or maybe even a progressive. I do NOT like fighting or disagreement. I believe in personal choice. I believe in Medicare and Social Security, I believe we should care for our fellow citizens. I believe invading ANWR is an atrocity, I believe we should NOT reduce restrictions on mercury in water, I believe we should embrace the Kyoto treaty, I believe we should embrace the UN, and I believe we should find a humble, but responsible, road to leaving Iraq.

And, sometimes, I still disagree with you. Sorry to make you crazy on occasion.

Keep on coming with the truth-cum-sarcasms.

FL

[deacon]

77. oh yeah, this is more important than the onslaught push for a theocracy

gimme a break and a half.

[LdyGuique]

78. I understand perfectly as flaming discussions DO happen all too

often. Insistences on litmus tests. Trashing a major party figure because he/she does one or two votes that don't coincide with some notion of liberal purity. Those on the front lines of being an elected representative have to make tough decisions based on not only their constituency, but on their personal POVs, and even based on the fine art of political compromise to get business done.

The reality is that we all hold multiple POVs -- which are based on a combination of age, gender, economic status, educational background, social background, race, ethnic background, and/or religion. In other words, the entire gamut of elements that make us individual. It is a ridiculous idea that we will or could agree on all topics down to the last crossed T or dotted I.

It is an immature mindset that insists on mirror imaging. Many of us don't even agree with our own selves on a day-to-day basis as new emotions rise and new data appears. Why would we agree with each other all of the time?

The fact that current politics is so devisive and the rhetoric has been ratcheted up to a constant insult level by many of the so-called RW pundits hardly helps the mood. Makes many of us kneejerk at times. Somedays, it's simply too difficult to keep a sense of humor.

William Pitt -- I think that it's not liberals you hate nearly as much as human nature. Humans are not especially introspective and prefer to react rather than invoke a tolerance mechanism, such as, "Well, maybe you have a point -- I'll have to think this over."

[fleabert]

80. I love you Will Pitt! (that means I agree with you, more than a little bit

exceptional piece. Thanks for saying what is so often on my mind, but I don't have the words.

[Andromeda]

81. I agree with most of what you said.

Liberals are sometimes their own worst enemy and they don't know it.

I'm a liberal but I'd like to think I'm a more tempered and reasonable one. :)

Getting liberals to coalesce on anything is like trying to herd cats.

[dad]

82. I hate William Pitt

It's funny.

Find a 7000 word essay with 200 responses, and William Pitt is probably behind it.

I'm sorry two people heckled you during your speech. I hope it didn't make you cry.

[info being]

170. So you have a problem with how many words he used?

What's funny is how you are proving his point.

[OneBlueSky]

83. it's not just liberals, Will . . .

self-righteousness is a pandemic affecting Americans of all social, political and religious stripes . . .

"You're either with us or against us!" . . .

I think they get it from George W. Bush and his ilk . . .

[bklyncowgirl]

85. There's something about self-righteous liberals

That make you wonder why you bother.

I once was approached by some ernest young activists in Park Slope Brooklyn asking me to sign a petition protesting the cops for breaking up groups of kids who were congregating on the street with loud boom boxes blaring at all hours of the night. As a working person who happened to live in a first floor apartment without airconditioning, I had some strong feelings about people with loud boom boxes and needless to say they differed from those of the activists.

Well to make a long story short, despite my "US Out of El Salvador" and Reagan is not my President" (this was the '80s) buttons I was called a fascist and a racist.

This was just one incident and most of the progressive's I've met have been wonderful people but there's truth in every stereotype and the angry, intransigent, humorless and totally clueless liberal does exist and the rest of us need to work hard to keep them down in their little caves plotting their revolutions so the rest of us can get on with trying to get a little sanity into the world.

[JHB]

116. I hear that! As a self-described 'left libertarian'...

...I've wound up on the receiving end of some very sincere and earnest people who nevertheless managed to write a good deal of El Pigboy's material for him.

[marions ghost]

86. If this is true...

ie. that many Liberals (more so than anybody else you might encounter)--are complainers, overly critical, impatient, constantly dissatisfied, like to fight for the sake of it, are thin-skinned and defensive, follow "politically correct" as a religion, etc...

--What's the reason for this? Is it just a "type," with all the attendant psychological factors? Is it really the pent-up venting of those whose ideas and values are trampled in the larger arena--ie. frustration and deep-seated anger? The idea that conservatives used to be like liberals until they figured out how to pull together would support this theory. Do Liberals just need some little seminars in anger management, listening to others, learning how to recognize insecurities and fear reactions? How to channel the fire into constructive action? Maybe we need some group therapy. Self-help books?--"I was a Rabid Close-minded Liberal Zealot."

I don't know. But it seems there's some interest in the topic. Where are the rational, conciliatory, cooperative liberals, or more rational people of any kind? Are they more likely to be scientists, journalists, teachers, carpenters--ie. people whose job it is to observe, take an objective view and think before acting? Maybe it's just an American tendency to be impatient, insecure, one-uppy, competitive--as that's certainly the environment we grow up in.

You raise good questions. The answers might fill a book.

[wyldwolf]

87. "liberals" like those made me a moderate

I used to believe I was a "liberal" until I met up with some like you mentioned above. But I met those on Democratic Underground.

I realized if those rigid, intolerant, self righteous souls are representative of what "real" liberals are, I'm not one of them.

... but then I realized those types are hijacking the term "liberal" much the way their rightwing counterparts hijacked "conservative."

[sportndandy]

88. Thanks Will. You NAILED it.

[GalleryGod]

91. This expresses most of my frustration with Our Side.

Sure it's a "complex world", now...but the Righties have sure figured out a way to make their "Up the Down Staircase" logic sell to the electorate.

[jpgray]

92. Everyone will agree with you

And then go back to doing exactly what you described.

[StopTheMorans]

94. exactly

:thumbsup:

[Misunderestimator]

104. LOL... very astute!

[DistressedAmerican]

93. Your Problems Are Two!

1) You fail to prescreen anyone coming to events you are appearing at.

2) You fail to have Secret Service agents to rope and hog tie these disruptors and haul them off to Guantanamo Bay!

[Lab2112]

95. Give in to your hatred...

Good! Your hate has made you powerful...let the hate flow through you.

[ananda]

96. I love liberals..

.. for exactly the same reason that Pitt hates them. We can disagree and still be liberals, for fundamentally we are all on the side of humanity, not some crazy OT fundie God, not some filthy rich WASP-y corpocracy, and definitely not privatization and deregulation.

Why would I want to be on the same side of people who agree with me on every issue? If I wanted that, I'd turn into a Reeptile.

Sue

[Coexist]

99. very funny - very exaggerated

but very funny

[anarchy1999]

100. Well, you certainly are on fire. Thank you again, Mr. Pitt.

Nice piece.

[QC]

101. Love Me, I'm a Liberal

By Phil Ochs
(Born 1940, died 1976)

I cried when they shot Medgar Evers
Tears ran down my spine
I cried when they shot Mr. Kennedy
As though I'd lost a father of mine
But Malcolm X got what was coming
He got what he asked for this time
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I go to civil rights rallies
And I put down the old D.A.R.
I love Harry and Sidney and Sammy
I hope every coloured boy becomes a star
But don't talk about revolution
That's going a little bit too far
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I cheered when Humphrey was chosen
My faith in the system restored
I'm glad the commies were thrown out
of the AFL-CIO board
I love Puerto Ricans and Negros
as long as they don't move next door
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

The people of old Mississippi
Should all hang their heads in shame
I can't understand how their minds work
What's the matter don't they watch Les Crain?
But if you ask me to bus my children
I hope the cops take down your name
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I read New Republic and Nation
I've learned to take every view
You know, I've memorized Lerner and Golden
I feel like I'm almost a Jew
But when it comes to times like Korea
There's no one more red, white and blue
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I vote for the Democratic Party.
They want the U.N. to be strong
I go to all the Pete Seeger concerts
He sure gets me singing those songs
I'll send all the money you ask for
But don't ask me to come on along
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

Once I was young and impulsive
I wore every conceivable pin
Even went to the socialist meetings
Learned all the old union hymns
But I've grown older and wiser
And that's why I'm turning you in
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

[HuckleB]

102. Fundamentalist creeds and folk do cover the political spectrum.

This, in itself, offers a wonderful, albeit scary, starting point for exploring the human condition. What leads to such rigidity? Yeah, I know the common answers, but I'm not sure that they are the end of the story.

Anyway, I enjoyed the piece. I mean, don't get me started on those friggin' hippies.

;)

[Dob Bole]

103. Yay! Somebody said it!!

I'm an Alabama-born, now evangelical, open-minded, optimistic person with a penis.

So yeah, sometimes I don't feel comfortable around other liberals.

[Walt Starr]

105. I think just about everybody on the left is guilty of this behavior

Mayhaps it's time we all took a look at the person in the mirror and realize what we need to change about ourselves in order to become more effective as a group?

[mopinko]

122. yo walt

maybe you could start by giving obama a break.

[Walt Starr]

126. I gave Obama a break long ago

and continue to give him a break.

I had to, since I've given Hillary enough of a break to be 100% behind her winning the Dem nod in 2008.

[mopinko]

174. goodonya nt

[WI_DEM]

106. I agree with a lot of what you just said, even if it is somewhat

of an exaggeration. DU has some people who think they are purer than anybody else (heck even I have gotten into that misconception from time to time). If you don't like my candidate then something is wrong with you--we can't have a simple disagreement. If you aren't 100% pure you're a DINO. If you are a Christian you aren't mearly a Christian but you must be a FUNDIE!! and you certainly are not thinking things out rationally if you are a Christian. If you are a catholic you have a Nazi as the pope. Heck, even if you like watching American Idol, you buy into watching mindless junk on TV--and on Fox no less (as if NBC, ABC, CBS are any more pure). I always thought that Liberals were the more accepting of the political philosophies and I'm proud of my liberalism, and we have many wonderful people who post here but there are times when those who dismiss us as self-rightious snobs is spot-on.

[crispini]

108. In my neck of the woods, there are two kinds of Democrats....

those who want to argue, and those who want to work.

Those who want to argue make me tired, especially because they like to argue about things that we as individuals have very little control over. Foreign policy. The DNC. Etc etc etc. These are the same people who are totally willing to come up with big sweeping plans for the budget, the Senate, stuff like that -- but they're not willing to help put on a forum for local candidates, or show up to block walk, or so on. Yap yap yap. All hat, no cattle.

You need to find more of those who want to work. (They like to argue too, but not as much as they want to work.) I suspect that your move to PDA will help with that a lot.

[FlaGranny]

109. The only reason I read this thread

was because it was in "Greatest." I no longer go to GD or GDP. The posts there are intentionally misunderstood and intentionally contentious. There was a post in Latest the other day that called ALL real estate agents "scum." I'm sure there were many more like that in GD/GDP.

So, in other words, I couldn't agree with you more.

[AwakeAtLast]

209. I rarely go to those forums, either

I find that some of the wild-eyed bashing and arguing can be more than I want to get into after a long day at work and then a long night at home alone with my daughter.

The Greatest page is truly the greatest, at least for me!

:thumbsup:

[Cuban_Liberal]

110. "...I can't have a mildly divergent opinion on a matter of import...."

No shit, Will!

[Misunderestimator]

112. I think you misspelled "wildly"

[Cuban_Liberal]

113. I only copied and pasted it.

If so, Will Pitt misspelled it.

[arwalden]

129. Heh-heh... It's NEVER your fault.

BUT, HE MISSPELLED IT FIRST!
I WAS ONLY COPYING HIM!

[Cuban_Liberal]

130. What did I say that wasn't true, Allen?

I frankly fail to see the point of your post, other than sheer antagonism.

[arwalden]

131. Well, Tony..

<< I frankly fail to see the point of your post, other than sheer antagonism.>>

It would appear your sense of humor has been taken over by your sense of hypersensitivity. Geeze... it was a joke. Lighten up! :eyes:

[Cuban_Liberal]

132. Sorry.

In light of the other post from Misunderestimator in the sub-thread, I was a bit gun shy.

Peace.

:hi:

[Misunderestimator]

136. Yes, I am quite dangerous...

:eyes:

[Cuban_Liberal]

138. It's the 'chain syndrome'

After one has been beaten with a chain often enough, one has only to hear the links rattle to flinch. You're not guilty of doing so, of course, but the point nonetheless remains.

Peace.

:hi:

[Misunderestimator]

140. Who's been beating you with a chain, CL?

:hi:

[Cuban_Liberal]

144. Oh, there's a group of asshats.

There's a small group of asshats who have made it their mission at DU to harrass me. These self-proclaimed 'progressives' have deliberately misconstrued and misrepresented my attempts to inject coherent legal or factual expositions into debates as 'support' for whatever position they are in opposition to.

[Misunderestimator]

146. Why do I get the feeling you are trying to circumvent the rules of no PAs?

Since I am positive that you include me in this fantastical little group of "asshats" who oppress you.

No one has misconstrued anything you've written that I've seen.

[Cuban_Liberal]

151. One example:

What I have written has indeed been misconstrued, and not just once, but many times. One example would be in the debate over the pharmacists and birth-control pills:

In one of the numerous threads on that subject, I had the sheer 'audacity' to state that, under most current state laws, the pharmacists were within their legal right to do what they were doing; that is a fact. The fact that I also posted in the same thread that states should make it a condition of licensure that every pharmacy agree to keep and dispense every drug on a state-mandated formulary--- including birth-control pills--- was either overlooked or deliberately ignored.

That's just one example; there are others.

[Misunderestimator]

152. Um... This is not Allen..

Care to rethink your answer?

[Cuban_Liberal]

153. I'll let it stand.

It's still acurate.

[Misunderestimator]

156. Even the part where you say I'm not part of them?

Cause... I remember plenty of those threads of which you speak, and your position on the entire subject.

[Cuban_Liberal]

157. My position is as I stated it.

Have a nice day.

[Misunderestimator]

158. Well, that was fun.

[Cuban_Liberal]

139. I have no wildly divergent opinions from mainstream DU...

Have a nice day.

[Misunderestimator]

141. Hmm, you forgot the smilie...

this one: :sarcasm:

[Cuban_Liberal]

145. I didn't forget a damned thing.

It wasn't a sarcastic or ironic statement; rather,it was an accurate one.

[jpgray]

121. ..ance!

(sorry)

[Ann Arbor Dem]

111. Bingo!

And well stated. Thank you!

:applause:

[cry baby]

114. Your post looks different to me today than it did last night.

Yesterday, things were so depressed here and I had been reading almost all day. Therefore, I was depressed and didn't have a good perspective.

Today, I see what most here saw last night (I can be slow to come around). I see the point today and I agree that we should be tolerant of each other. It is a liberal value, is it not, to be tolerant of others - in religion, politics, etc.

Sorry that I was not in the frame of mind yesterday to see clearly.

[PATRICK]

115. Thicker skins

Which the Right really doesn't have but at least it has more satisfaction as king of the hill lobbing retribution and hand grenades at dissenters.

Of stupidity, nuts and destructive personality types. Of the forums, the corruption of power, the simplicity of single causes that give terrible shape to the former.

At least you are mentioning it was a few absurd and doctrinaire persecutors- without violence. The historical rule is that you will have the harshest disagreements with those closest to you over the slightest veering of views rather than distant and diametrical enemies. Internecine and civil war are the most bitter and the craziest.

The brilliant relative lost to conservative ideology IS the bigger problem, but it helps to see destructive mindsets, despite ideological distance, as of one cloth in our times. Maybe it is only by luck that a fanatic will stumble onto a just cause, but rarely will they refrain from abusive behavior. More damage will be done by people who can intellectually claim "I see" but are as blind as bricks.

The liberal blanket is not a security blanket, but I agree that the main problem is hiding revealing corrupt and divisive principles by bad behavior while most of the community is totally absorbed in democratic issue discussion. If these people are our banana peel, we are the ones without an eye to the path rubbing our butts resentfully- instead of waking up to reality a bit.

And the complaining and arguing is typical misdirection of those out of power. Most human energy is wasted. Patient direction would move more of this into practical action- hopefully before we run out of air.

Forget the liberal label if that is becoming a sore point- since that is falling into line with the Conservative redefinition. One's enemies always define one in real and subtle ways. The cult of blame should not be front and center more than the community of service if liberalism is not to become as self contradictory as the Mad Empire of the Right. The framing of reality by a corrupt media forum should not lure us inside the frame.

Of course, a maor chunk of the people bothering to come out to such events will not exactly be rainbow of real liberal representation, but mainly a few types of what are sometimes innappropriately labeled "activists". Small wonder that the common aims sometimes self implode in the imbalance.

[Arkana]

117. Excellent post, Will.

It is no better to be an uninformed Democrat than it is to be an uninformed Republican. There are reactionaries in our camp too--and they do not do the party any good.

[Roland99]

118. Petty bickering will get everyone nowhere.

Good post!

[TreeHuggingLiberal]

119. Good luck with dealing with all the festering hate...

I hope it serves you well.

[demgurl]

120. Will, don't give up on us!

I know you never would. I have to say that most of my experiences here have been wonderful.

When the whole Dixie Chicks thing was going on, everyone was outraged at the backlash. I spoke up and said I didn't want to point it out but that freedom of speech basically means the government is not going to haul you off or behead you, it does not mean that the public will go on supporting you and even buying your records. One person wrote agreeing with me and everyone else either respected my right to my opinion or just ignored me.

I would rather have someone ignore me than attack me because I do not voice their same opinion. That being said, I do welcome opposing view points if put forth in a friendly and non-attacking manner. Sometimes they even change my point of view.

I do not know if it is freepers or people who are just frustrated, but then there are those, on the board, who will read the post you just made on Bush and they will not have anything to retort except that your spelling and grammar are poor.

I had one person who was very nice. I misspelled one word and they said some very positive things about my post and then pointed out the spelling mistake. I did not mind this at all and felt almost like they were looking out for me. Another time (very recently) someone replied to me and their entire post was about my spelling. I went back and looked over their past posts only to find that they, too, had made mistakes. I could have countered with the examples I found but decided that that was too ugly.

It honestly feels like some people attack just to attack. They become angry and just sort of lash out. I welcome different view points and I think it makes all of us better people in the long run.

I have interacted with the types of people you spoke of. I understand what you are saying, but I think the majority of people have so much more respect than that. Maybe it is the liberal in me that wants to see the best in people.

I love liberals and embrace them. Without this board and liberals, the world would be a much lonelier place for me.

[grace0418]

124. You rock so freaking hard

Thanks again Will.

[Arugula Latte]

125. Aren't you the guy scolding some of us for painting religious people

with a broad brush?

Could your brush get any broader here?

[Cleita]

127. Liberals or extremists?

Exremists are on the far left too. As a vegetarian, I once got in trouble with another vegetarian for wearing a leather purse.

"Fer chrissakes, I reasoned, the cow was already killed for meat. The leather is a by-product that might as well be put to use," I said.

Those of us whom I rather call common sense liberals, need to develop a thick skin against the hard left extremists who are as dogmatic, closed minded and dare I say as demented as the freepers IMHO.

Good essay Will and an opinion that needs to be aired and discussed more often.

[goodhue]

128. sorry to hear of these two uncool experiences

But seems to me the problem with absurdly rightous and irritating human behavior is by no means limited to liberals.

[IronLionZion]

133. Thank you Will, for saying what we all need to hear.

Yep, I agree with you on everything except one. Why did you go out for a smoke? Liberals don't smoke! You dirty freeper! :P

This forum gets a bit out of sorts for ridiculous reasons now and then. Thank you for bringing some sensibility back. People listen to you.

:applause: :yourock: :headbang:

[CitySky]

134. small numbers + big mouths = disproportionate impact

I agree that the behavior you describe is counterproductive and annoying.

HOWEVER, I don't think this describes most liberals. You spoke your mind before a liberal crowd and three jerks complained. There's always SOMEONE who feels the need to argue or complain, but this isn't liberals: it's every crowd. Stick your neck out, and someone will rush forward to chop of your head. That's one of the universal laws of leadership. But I don't think that the majority of us are like that.

Despite what that twit said, we NEED heroes, Will: their example gives us courage and inspires us. Keep speaking your mind.

-Peace!

[warrens]

142. Shaddup, Freeper

Snicker.

[MissB]

143. Democracy is messy.

[erichzann]

147. Here is the actual definition of "liberal" - not many people actually are

(sig)

[NoSheep]

179. That's me!!!!!

:hi:

[seabeyond]

148. but will..........i love you.........lol and a wink. hate? n/t

[Pathwalker]

149. Nice rant. I wish you'd mentioned all the "Purity" tests.

As if anyone could actually be pure ENOUGH to be called a liberal. I flunked so many I gave up.

[merh]

150. Sometimes you just have to suck it up and take it!

Throwing stones and complaining just seems like such a waste of effort.


He who would write heroic poems should make his whole life a heroic poem.
Thomas Carlyle (1795-1881) Life of Schiller.

Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will.
Martin Luther King, Jr. "Letter from Birmingham Jail," April 16, 1963

[bloom]

154. You know how to stir the shit better than anyone around here, Will.

Your post makes you sound rather self-loathing. :dilemma:

[VOX]

155. Lack of disclipine on the part of the left.

Loathsome as the right-wing may be, it is, for the most part, highly disciplined. Their message, even when delivered from various and overlapping sources, stays on track. They rarely throw one of their own overboard, unless s/he is an extreme liability.

The left apparently has no shame about allowing its differing factions to duke it out in public. It seems like the left would rather sink like an anvil with a "clear conscience," instead of competitively repositioning itself with a compromise or two.

The left would do well to tear the discipline-page out of the right-wing playbook.

[MarianJack]

159. FAR From Pising Me Off, Will...

...I think you hit the nail exactly on the head!

[Cuban_Liberal]

162. So do I. n/t

[mimitabby]

160. it could be you

you stand up head and shoulders above the rest of us, so you
end up taking a lot of the heat.

On the other hand, it sure seems like conservatives are not
exactly GETTING ALONG with each other lately either :)

[XemaSab]

161. Yesterday I was at the local taco shop

and I was thinking that the problem with liberals is that we're too happy to compromise. Compromising is a virtue to liberals, and it shouldn't be.

If the bush administration wants to send 400,000 troops into Venezuela, we'll make a counter offer of 200,000 troops and feel proud of ourselves for having found a compromise position.

Fuck that.

We need to be hardasses and fuck with the Republicans the way they fucked with us during the Clinton years.

Compromising with each other is OK, but when you compromise with your enemies, you're a damn sellout and you don't deserve to win.

[mistertrickster]

163. This is SO true. "All too often, liberals would rather complain and feel

good . . ." than actually DO ANYTHING.

Better to light one candle than curse the darkness, said JFK. All the meetings I go to, we just sit around and curse the darkness.

If I don't get with some people who can set goals and meet them, I'm going to just bust.

[specimenfred1984]

166. So Does Ann Coulter...

PLUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZE!

What would you have liberals do, shut up like good brainwashed repuke zombies do at repuke events?

Rude people are everywhere and those people sure sound rude but "I Hate Liberals"???

[info being]

167. You can't get a Liberal to do anything constructive

Liberals don't want solutions because then we'd have to stop complaining and start working. We want to live in an ivory tower where we see what should be...not in the real world where we deal with imperfection on a minute-by-minute basis.

I'm an MBA, so I learned how to get things done and not just complain. Over the years, I've also become a Liberal, but I tell you every time I talk about a solution with another Liberal, it goes absolutely nowhere.

We have no leadership legitimacy if we can't deliver solutions that improve people's lives. And we don't need to wait around until George Bush is out of office to get started.

[Catholic Sensation]

168. the problem with the reactionaries

is they might make up only 5-10% of the "liberal" population, but they seem to be the source of like 75% of the volume for the leftist ideology.

There weren't that many people calling the new Pope a Nazi, but the few ignorant "liberals" (I didn't know hating a religion one doesn't agree with is liberal) who were doing this posted this apocraphical shit repeatedly for a week.

And it's not that I want the reactionaries to shut up, because they have as much right to their opinion, it's that the liberals who are reasonable people, who are thoughtful in their speech, need to speak up just as much as the reactionaries to make liberals and leftists not look like the zealots.

[fooj]

172. Yes. I suppose LIBERALS do complain. Thanks for the model!

:banghead:

[Zorra]

173. Wow.... that really sucked.

The language I mean. The generalized, blanket "All liberals do this and are bad" theme....ouch. We was framed, I tell ya, framed.

Jeebus, how about "radical airheads" or something, to describe people who scream before they think?

And I don't agree with everything that you wrote, and maybe what you wrote was somewhat about me, and maybe somewhat not, but I really don't give a rat's ass, I still have a right to my express my opinions even if I am a liberal.

"Cope";-)

I do think you have some valid points about lack of centralized agreement, and realize that because you are out there as a political public figure/(target for abuse) that you have dealt with a lot of idiotic unreasonable bullshit from the screaming cosmic airheads of America faction of the "left". Seems like they really pissed you off this time.

Yeah, even some liberals can be off the wall sometimes, and yes, even some liberals in general are usually very difficult to herd, and immediately particularly when asked to support any type of idea that smacks of RW agenda.

You made an analogy to how conservatives used to fight amongst themselves like "liberals" do now.

But to my mind there is a big difference: Liberals face a massive, well financed RW machine/propaganda onslaught, (complete with conservative think tanks that have been active for years, dreaming up ways to bring fascism to America) that is determined to, and indeed already has, shifted the Democratic Party pretty far to the right. We constantly have to deal with blatant, and also subtle, attempts by the RW, including even members of the Democratic Party (notably many DLC founders and members), to accept unethical, undemocratic RW ideas, ideologies, policies, and practices. When folks within the Democratic Party start suggesting that we liberals adopt conservative republican ideas that are unethical, impractical, and are against our principles, we immediately get suspicious - because we have to.

Some of us get unreasonably reactionary, but

There is nothing the RW would like more, (and IMO they actively promote) than the assimilation of the Democratic Party into the Republican Party as the GOP's Junior Varsity. This is even better than the complete destruction of the Democratic Party, because a completely ineffective, "semi-allied to the RW" opposition, is much better than creating the possibility of the rise of an effective opposition that actually opposes and threatens fascist republican policies on all fronts.

So I really, really gotta disagree with this statement:

"Liberals are the reason liberals lose elections nowadays"

I believe that most liberals want to unite within a viable, practical, and reasonable organization that is not corrupted by RW ideology, and the Democratic Party as it stands now is no longer giving us anything like that.

Compromise within the party is fine within a reasonable framework, but if the party framework has termites, you need to either move out or get rid of the pests and the rotten wood or the house will eventually collapse.

Liberals came out en masse to vote, and Greens even willingly abandoned their own candidate, to vote for John Kerry, and/or against Bush. Liberals, despite their faults, never vote republican like "moderate" Democrats sometimes do, and "conservatives" usually do. Liberals never adhere to RW ideals.

It appears to me that it was the "moderates" and "conservatives" who are primarily responsible for helping to select Bush, not the liberals, not even the few "radical airheads of the left" .

And I believe that if you want almost all liberals to agree on one single issue, just yell, "out of Iraq now"....

...and all the liberals will unite and join you on the group liberal bench and pat you on the back and smile and scream "yeah!" and march with signs and sing kum ba yah and then go out and vote for whoever the republican candidate ain't.

Your, Dean's, Kucinich's, (or whoever's) idea on how to get out of Iraq "gracefully" is, IMO, logical and reasonable politically and on paper. And maybe some Dem nominees for Congress can run and win on that seemingly reasonable coherent policy platform in 2006. And 2008. And, maybe again in 2112.

But you stirred a hornet's nest when you suggested that there would be any type of rational policy instituted withdrawal of US forces from Iraq, before the radical airheads stopped listening and attacked you, and before you got to your real point.

It is very possible that many liberals remember, or have studied, the Vietnam era, and all the nifty proposals for ending the war in, and the occupation of, Vietnam, that were kicked around back then, but never came to pass.

What finally actually worked in Vietnam, in practical reality, 10+ years, and 58,000 dead American soldiers and countless Vietnamese civilians too late, was the "Out Now" solution.

[MisterP]

196. well put: the (real) moderates often have their own litmus tests

and purge demands (as opposed to the "moderates" who play go-along-to-get-along with the neocons and wrap themselves in the mantle of "hard choices" and "necessary compromises" like Daschle and all those Sen. candidates who said the only way to win was to turn right and who--lost)

[bloom]

175. I hope you don't think that this is the way to motivate people.

I think you would be wrong.


I went to a speech the other day by someone from a liberal think tank. It was a pretty lame speech - but people in Indiana are pretty polite - for the most part and so nobody gave him any grief...


You actually - can give a good speech when you have a mind to. But you're not going to motivate people with this approach - and I don't care if you do have 25 nominations for this page. You must have groupies or something - It's not going to inspire people when you say that you that you hate them - or the person next to them (for the people that don't want to think that you are talking about them ).

[lala_rawraw]

176. I understand

Your perspective and frustration. God knows I understand. In fact, If I was less concerned for the left movement, I would tell you just how much a few people have acted in a way that I find to be incredibly unethical. How they have not only insulted me, but stolen from me, spread crap about me, and so forth. So I understand Will, I do.

With respect, however, I cannot agree on the generalization of using one word describing many to describe the few. You have every right to hate people who are instinctively in attack mode with no sense of loyalty or respect. You have every right to hate people who distill all of your work to one opinion they do not agree with and use that to dismember you. People like the ones I have described - are the same intolerant and hate driven mob as the right wing, neither of these groups are liberal or conservative, they are hateful, narrow and self-serving. But, I cannot agree with your use of the word liberal to describe the few who in no way do or should represent liberals.

So I will I respect and understand your sentiment, I cannot (but still with respect) agree in your approach with regard to this matter.

Always a friend, LA

[plasticsundance]

182. Couldn't you see this coming? Can't you understand?

WilliamPitt,

You might have a sound argument quoting Dean and all. You and Dean might even be correct in your assertion about the Iraq occupation. I'm not sure I agree with you. I recently listened to a spot on Democracynow.org between Naomi Klein & Erik Gustafson that looked at both sides of the issue, and let me tell, it's a tough call. If anyone is interested, you can listen or read the transcript of the discussion at the following address:

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/20/1427259">Should U.S. Troops Withdraw Now From Iraq? A Debate Between Naomi Klein & Erik Gustafson

With that said, let me be the Devil's Advocate to your take on things, realizing of course I did not have the benefit of attending the event.

Why do you think that some might have grown angry at you? You were given 15 minutes, and then you were to introduce Dahr Jamail, as I understand it from your posting. You took a very controversial and passionate topic to speak about. Now, as we all know, Dahr Jamail's writings serve as a reminder of the horrendous shortcomings of the Iraq war. Jamail's writings also serve to, IMHO, delineate, or at least imply, the hegemony aspirations of the US, and in particular this current Administration.

Jamail's writings, for a very large part, deal with what can be considered war crimes in Falluja.

Given the latter journalistic writings, what kind of mindset did you think composed, at least, part of that crowd? How many people were actually involved in the dissension to your presentation?

You said yourself in your posting:

I was honored tonight to introduce Dahr Jamail at a talk in Boston. Jamail, if you don't know, got sick of the corporate news coverage of Iraq and went there himself. He got into Fallujah and let the world know what happened there. He is an amazing human being.

Taking to heart your own account of Jamail and the MSM, don't you think that at least some in the audience might be a wee-bit not prepared to hear what they probably saw/see as a centrist view.

Let me ask, to be fair to you, and please be honest: During your presentation, was there any chance for that audience to ask you questions, or did you take this chance as a platform to present solely your beliefs, your ideals. What were your inner thoughts when you saw those that were wearing those Palestinian scarves? Did you honestly reach out to them, or did you think that calling Dean a hero might inflame them? How did that really offer anything to the real issues of the occupation?

I ask the above question, because realizing that such a passionate and touchy topic deserves a critical discussion, do you really think it was a smooth move on your part mentioning Dean as a hero? Do you really think that was quite the right approach? How is that pertinent to such a sensitive topic about the US role in the occupation of Iraq?

Are you absolutely sure, and can I be absolutely positive, that you did not intentionally, even on a sub-conscious level, seek to prove your premise about liberals by inciting a crowd that obviously wanted a different take from the event? Are you not now trying to deliberately draw flames on this DU topic, so that you can piously prove your point once again?

It's not that I am saying you don't have a right to your opinions, but could it have been discussed, perhaps with even Jamail and the audience, given the volatility already embedded in the topic of the occupation, that such a discussion would have a proper platform so that both sides of the issue would have equal time to present their thoughts about the role of the US occupation?

If I am in error, and this did take place or was discussed, you might then have an argument, but you're still taking an awfully broad general brush stroke, IMO.

In other words, were you baiting the audience? Are you absolutely sure that what you did not serve as a passive and intellectual way of doing what is sometimes done here at DU, when PETA members voice their opinions? The latter are flamed with cruel animal jokes by delusional posters who think that they're actually being more honest about the discussion through harassing with inane puriele jokes, attempting to show-off that they can be insensitive to a topic. That this somehow is supposed to prove how sensible their alleged centrist point of view is? Do not such tactics only serve to derail the discussion and distract from the issues, just as someone rolling up a flyer and tossing it at you?

There are two sides to every story, and as Jim Croce once remarked in one of his songs: "you don't go messin' 'round with people strange to you, even if you do have a two piece custom pool cue."

Or, if it's not a pool cue, Dean is your hero.


:shrug:

[marions ghost]

198. LOL are u for real?

:eyes:

OK let's assume you're being serious. Speakers usually present their beliefs, their ideals, without polling the audience first. You want honesty, not pandering, in a public speaker. Debate later.

[plasticsundance]

259. Yeah, I'm serious.

Usually, prior to a speaking event, one will see an advertisment or flyer stating the speaker's/speakers topics. I think that was probably true for Jamail, but it might not have been. However, it wouldn't matter, since in Jamail's case his reputation proceeds him. Jamail doesn't have to poll his audience.

In addition, WilliamPitt didn't have to poll his audience, he appears to indicate in his original post that he had already come to this conclusion about liberals. Liberals, mind you, not the individuals involved.

WilliamPitt: "I agree with so much of what other liberals believe. All day, every day. But it seems like all I do is fight with liberals. I can't have a mildly divergent opinion on a matter of import without being called a Republican, or a Freeper, or a sellout, or a whore. If I'm a Christian, I empower the fundamentalist Right. If I'm an atheist, I'm bashing, period.

I asked very pertinent questions to his posting. For I all know, there might have been a pre-warning among others in his audience/group.

Sheesh, the dude is waving his own red flag, and he doesn't appear to heed it. Although, if there was a flyer stating the topic, and these individuals behaved like that towards him, then he would indeed have a case against these two individuals.

Wasn't there any mediation? A person/people overseeing the speaking event? Who was running the show? Who are these people? Who sponsored the event? What is their reputation?

How the hell does it not dawn that this is a passionate topic? Hint: Look at all the protests prior to the invasion of Iraq. Look at some of the current rallies.

Now, based off this knowledge, you're now speaking before an audience that is probably pretty pissed off about the war, let alone the Republican power grab, and a feeling of impotence to change it, and you don't feel you might not want to take precautions?

Nah. I have a case to play a Devil's Advocate.

[bloom]

210. I was wondering about some of that, also

That was a good discussion on Democracy Now. I don't think the two sides are all that different. Not enough to go inciting people and making divisions where they don't need to be.

It can be an interesting discussion - what the fine points of difference are.

I don't see how saying, "I Hate Liberals....blah, blah, blah..." helps the cause.

[Maestro]

183. Rhetoric flies in both directions.

I just hate it as well when stupid self-righteous rhetoric with no base in fact or reality flies from our side. Good goin' Will. You did fine.

[SmokingJacket]

188. People suck.

Okay, not all of them. Idiots come in all stripes.

But I'd rather be trapped in an elevator full of liberals than an elevator full of rightwingers, ANY DAY.

[mitchtv]

189. wow , you sure brought out a lot of hate

Sorry I call myself a liberal. And all these haters are what? Good luck. I'm starting to hate haters.

[Renew Deal]

194. "'I'm starting to hate haters."

:banghead:

[psychopomp]

195. I found this to be your best post in a while, Will

Thanks for saying it and I think it needed to be said. Excellent prose; hats off.

United we stand, people.:patriot: Let's take it back!

[jus_the_facts]

197. hypocrisy and self-righteous indignation knows no bounds....

....no one is immune... :nopity:

[Generic Other]

199. So how many would throw shit at you if you spoke at a Bush rally

Just keeping it in perspective.

You only got three liberals mad at ya? Forgeddaboutem!

Everybody else thinks you walk on water.

By the way, didn't you say you weren't ever gonna post on GD again? Glad to see you changed your mind. :)

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

204. Hey, Will Pitt...

I loved it. I'm with you.

[gristy]

205. This comment of yours makes me sad

I had described the life and death of Marla Ruzicka in my speech, who went to Iraq to count the civilian dead and died there, and called her a hero. When I introduced Jamail, who went to the most dangerous place on earth so we could get the truth, I called him a hero.

Don't call people heroes, he said with index finger a-wavin'. It makes other people feel bad.

I've known of Marla for only a short time, but she appears to me to have been a brilliant humanitarian. Thank you for including her in your speech. I really cannot understand where the finger-waggin guy is coming from...

edit: typo

[seventythree]

207. hmmm?

Last I read, you had said you were only going to hang out in the lounge because you felt that DU had changed from what it was in the beginning. I thought that you weren't finding enough liberals on the boards any more -- but maybe it was the opposite, not enough moderates -- or maybe it was just others weren't agreeing with you? I pretty much agree with you on this one.

[bpilgrim]

208. a self HATING liberal

maybe thats the problem :shrug:

peace

[bloom]

211. YOU forget the old rule:

"If you find yourself screaming in rage at someone who agrees with 90% of what you agree with, you might just be a zealot and therefore no good to anyone but yourself."


It seems to me most of your rants that you go off on people around here are just like this. Like you want everyone to be locksteppers with you and you complain when they are not. You complain when people have ideas of their own. You complain when they don't. But mostly you complain when people disagree with you.

[WilliamPitt]

214. This would be your fourth post in this thread

Thanks for keeping it kicked.

[fudge stripe cookays]

225. So now there's a limit to how much we can post per thread?

{self delete}
:eyes:
FSC

[WilliamPitt]

226. Didn't say that at all

Interesting inference.

I was just saying thanks.

[fudge stripe cookays]

227. self delete

[bloom]

256. It's staying on page one without my help

like now.


Interesting that you are keeping count... is this 5 or 6?

[Inland]

212. Got to speak the shibboleths.

You should have spent fifty minutes running through every issue to prove your bona fides and your liberal stands. Otherwise, you must be on the wrong side of something or other.

I don't think liberals are alone, or even more than others. It's a sign of the times.

[mzmolly]

213. Here here!

"I hate liberals. They do not get along, they enjoy disagreement for the sake of disagreement all too often, they are so hard to meld into a coalition that no one has ever, ever, ever managed to meld them into an effective coalition for any significant period of time. Liberals are the reason liberals lose elections nowadays."

[yvr girl]

220. You're full of crap

;-)

Liberals tend to be idealistic and not pragmatic. Sometimes you have to make progress base by base - you can't always hit it out of the park.

[Lone Pawn]

228. No, he's quite correct.

Our "idealism" is what causes us to become such psychopathic zealots.

[bpilgrim]

233. "'idealism' is what causes us to become such psychopathic zealots" - lol

if thats how yall see liberals i suspect you might have a hard time communicating with them.

will is well known for over-reacting when folks don't see eye-to-eye with him though i would ever call him a "psychopathic zealot"... passionate, definitely but certainly not a psycho.

we all need to become better listeners especially when we don't exactly see eye-to-eye over such serious issues and ALWAYS treat each other with respect.

peace

[Lone Pawn]

237. How can I have a hard time communicating with myself?

And yes, idealism does turn some of us into psychopathic zealots.

Psychopathy: Serious mental illness or disorder impairing a person's capacity to function, characterized by antisocial behavior.

I would call our behavior when around each other--disagreeing so forcefully that we are unable to work together in the slightest--over a 5% difference in thought "impairing our ability to function," and I would call our habit of calling those of differing thought "Fascist" and "Nazi" if they're a Republican or merely "Sellout," "Whore," "DINO," or "Freeper" if they're a Democrat moderately "antisocial."

And we're certainly zealots. That can't even be argued.

[bpilgrim]

239. thats the problem, talking with yourself

and leaving no room for other opinions and then expressing arrogance by belittle the opinions of others as crazy.

the FASCIST elite who have conspired with corporations to enrich themselves at the expensive of everyone else by using the M$MW to program the thought of the day have EARNED their labels by their history and actions.

why do you think DU is so popular? we speak TRUTH to POWER and back up our opinions with 'links'.

we got a paper trail unlike the closed and secretive neoCON elite.

peace

[Lone Pawn]

241. So the problem is I come up with my own opinions after doing research as

opposed to letting someone else do both the research and thought for me? I do have no room for opinions that are counter to fact; that is correct. And I do quickly grow tired of arguing with people who only have room for facts that fit into their ideologically-driven reality; that's true too. But I certainly don't call the opinions of those who seem to base their opinions on reasonable fact "crazy." For example, I would not call some uneducated Republican who honestly thinks Iraq had WMD and thus supports the war crazy; I would call him willfully ignorant. I would, however, believe that someone who thinks that the "liberal media's just covered up all the findings" is crazy, and that it is simply useless to talk to him.

And lordy, I do know you love your links, bpilgrim. Why, you're so proud of them, if I offer a refutation to or different interpretation of link A, you offer me link A as a counter! Who knew that opinion was self-evident?

But I wouldn't want to be expressing any arrogance and or be belittle you. So I won't point out the irony in both claiming that people need to be more open-minded and declaring that everyone to the right of you is a fascist.

Oh, and DU isn't so popular because we speak truth to power or anything like that. That's not that popular. It's popular because we're partisan. Partisan sites are far more highly ranked on Alexa than nonpartisan sites.

[bpilgrim]

245. and condemn others who disagree with you as crazy. thats a problem.

and if you were 'listening' carefully i NEVER said that "everyone to the right of (me) is a fascist" but that is typical of your style of lashing out at your fellow DU'ers.

and your right, i do love links and i love DU because there are plenty of them because if you can't back up your opinion round here you will definitely hear about it.

there is nothing better than open-source discussion with real people vs the M$MW that is definitely a major problem in our society today that the many fine folks on DU have spent countless hours documenting and pass'n the word on it.

constructive criticism is fine but calling folks crazy or telling them you HATE them is no way of making the problem better ESPECIALLY with your allies.

peace

[Lone Pawn]

254. I hope you do realize, though, that

if your link does not back up your point, linking a second time does not actually help your position.

I find it odd that you have no problem insinuating that I am
1. A Republican
2. Arrogant
3. In favor of indiscriminately murdering the population of Iraq
all based on my failure to believe that the word of the Allied Commander in Europe ought have overturned the official report on Use of the Atomic Bomb, but yet call my habit of occasionally telling people their conclusions do not logically follow from the evidence presented "lashing out at fellow DUers." I suppose it would be nicer if I always agreed as long as we were bashing Bush, but realistically, while echo chambers like you would have DU are nice for riling up the base, they're useless for producing strategists who can be of some use to the movement. Of course, around here I've found actually being interested in challenging the Republicans for control isn't as highly prized as complaining in ever-more-bombastic terms about the manner in which they excercise control. Or perhaps I'm just a pessimist.

And really, you're one of the two or three people on all of DU I've ever thought was crazy. Not necessarily a bad thing. And I really don't hate you, though you're certainly frustrating from time to time.

[bpilgrim]

255. in keeping with your history, here and other threads, you don't listen

1. i never insinuated you were a reTHUG, though you insinuate DU'ers are crazy all the time
2. yes i pointed to the arrogance in your posts
3. i simply pointed out that ALL military leaders in theater thought the bomb was unnecessary, hello...

we got a paper trail here and the record speaks for itself.

and jic anyone is interested in learning more about the ABOMB debate here is a great place to start...
http://www.doug-long.com

FYI: i couldn't care less what you think of me just be prepared to be called on your arrogant, name calling posts and not just from me ;->

have a nice day :hi:

peace

[bling bling]

247. "Always treat other people with respect."

Yes. Absolutely.

Respect should be the most basic principle during a discussion where people disagree. A fundamental principle of mutual respect will keep the discussion going and keep it, at the very least, constructive.

[yvr girl]

234. That's why I winked

[daydreamer]

222. That's not fair

There are more obnoxious people on the right. Compared with Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh, Michael Moore is a gentle soul. Nobody on the left side would dare to wave a pair of flippers at a party convention. I was sick to my stomach when I saw that.

[Bouncy Ball]

235. Or make fun of the Purple Heart.

:-(

[mopinko]

224. read john sayles "at the anarchists convention"

or get this recording of it from npr's selected shorts-
http://store.symphonyspacestore.org/ci.html

you'll feel better.

[Melissa G]

229. Good to see you stirring it up outside the Lounge...n/t

[Qanisqineq]

230. Holy Shit! I am so glad you said it. I agree

This statement sums up my feelings on liberals lately:

"I can't have a mildly divergent opinion on a matter of import without being called a Republican, or a Freeper, or a sellout, or a whore. If I'm a Christian, I empower the fundamentalist Right. If I'm an atheist, I'm bashing, period."

It seems like lately if you don't agree with another liberal on every minute point, then you are just a f***ing freeper.

Bravo for saying it.

[flaminbats]

231. why you screaming leftist..

finger waving, draft dodging, big spending, freedom hating, godless, ammoral waffling, lawless, biggovernmentwanting, tree hugging, alternativelifestylepromoting, illegal drug using, antiAmerican, flag burning, probabykilling, soldierfacespitting, faceless, thoughtless, judical legislating, proadultery, world copping, nationbuilding, antibusiness, wildeyed, tax and spend, book burning, criminal freeing, unpatriotic, success hating, finger waggling, lawsuit loving, special treatment screaming, antidefense hating, profilibustergridlocking, media loving, Jesus hating, antifamily, marriageloathing, conspiracy hatching, unprincipled, medicine socializing, prowaitingroomsitting, antiDoctortreating, free money loving, lawandorderloathing, pope bashing, multiculturaldistricting, court packing, moral majority hating, gun confiscating, proterrorist loving, men enslaving, southhating, doubletalking, WashingtonDCdominating, antiSocialsecurityreform, antiIsraeli, socialiststalinistloving, lawenforcementscrewing, prounionslapping, litmustesting, partyoverpersonvoting, DNCpartisansucking, bible trashing, overregulating, bleedingheartultraliberalfollower.
:crazy:
but calling yourself conservative?

[Tigress DEM]

232. Luv ya' Man. Been there, done that....

But hating is investing too much of your time into their game.

There are lots of liberals who can listen and effectively move forward when asked to do so. (Focus on them - us.)

In your own way you are out on the edge (being in the middle) because you are so passionate about what you believe in. Still, liberals need to learn not to heckle or scold thier own.

[LincolnMcGrath]

236. And now for something completely different...

[WilliamPitt]

246. Heh

[Carolab]

240. Will, you are so right (as always)

I've given up on going to Democrat "meet-ups" because no one can seem to get organized and especially on what's really urgent (like election reform????)...

When I attended meetings to discuss election fraud rallies earlier this year, everyone got into silly, stupid discussions about the colors we should wear, and whether we should sing, and how precisely to word the signs (and of course the more obtuse, the better, it seemed)...

What IS it about being a liberal that makes it so damned difficult to just build a team, some concensus, and get out there and DO something that REALLY matters?

All anyone wants to do is argue and discuss and go "what?", and fight about who should be the nominee for 2008, for chrissake, while 2006 looms and we should be doing something NOW.

I, for one, am just waiting for some GD direction from somewhere...I want to fight but I want to fight for election reform and I don't have a clue what to do about it and where to go! Everyone's got an opinion about how to do this, what to do, and there is NOTHING unified as far as I can see...

WHERE IS THE LEADERSHIP?

[Festivito]

242. You talk essay to bumper-sticker people, misunderstandings abound.

With tea and cookies, or beer and nuts, you could resolve things once and for all.

[Book Lover]

244. Did your copy editor

track your use of "we" and "they" in this piece? You're all over the place. Which is it? Are you a part of "we" liberals, or are liberals "they" to you?

[dad]

250. -

I would guess that the guy used to consider himself a "WE" liberal, but now to him liberals are "THEM". It sounds as if he has grown more moderate over the years and cannot take criticism for it very well.
Every time I log on to DU William Pitt has a thread with 300 responses ... I cannot for the life of me figure out why he has so many groupies on this web site!

[SpaceBuddy008]

258. I ate Liberal, at reasonABLY priced Oriental buffet & divide/conquer M.O.

Yes, i ate Liberally at that buffet, as their was a cornucopia of foodstuffs to satisfy the diversity of pallets.

Modus-operandi is ever apparent, and So prevalent...it's--- surreal..macabre.

CHILL WILL PITT QUITT using Divide & Conquer, Hegelian Dialectical tactics so craftily in favored use by the 'rulers'

Hegelian Dialectical 'double-binds' ?

thesis-antithesis-synthesis

problem-reaction-solution

with regards to tired conventional political 'marketing' and as Dennis pointed out, he said, 'I've sat in the democratic strategy meetings- they make their decisions by holding their finger to the wind, It's sick'-he said.

here is what I wrote about his authenticity and courage focus, just one of the 'hearts' of the historic campaign

"Image posturing and stylistic showmanship is being trumped as the Progressive candidate D. Kucinich continually, consistently focuses Plans on the carefully thought out Right thing to do. Not only inspiring people looking for a True New Breed of Leader, but also invigorating because of its Truth-Focus, Believability, Trustability that what he says IS Doable, and what he promises, if we help and support, IS possable AND necessary to be done.Through his actions, authenticity and integrity we can GET OFF the carousel of pedantic waffling, machevellianistically finger to the windbag, corporate diversionary tactics from listening to tired, conventional political marketers of what will "sell" to the public.

as action from anger- hate is not sustaining but entropic and wears energy & commitment down

"A new, spiritually based social activism is beginning to assert itself. It stems not from hatYing what is wrong and trYang to fight it, but from LoVing what could Be and making the commitment to bring It forth."

-Marianne Williamson -- Taken from "Healing the Soul of America: Reclaiming Our Voices as Spiritual Citizens"
*****

your sensibilities or current belief system gets questioned and threatened and

you make a emotion laden post that puts your feelings up for discussion, it seems ahead of the point to be debated.

create an exaggerate problem which is peripheral to and diminishing to the ? of illegal occupation

it then generates reactions of superficial, me-too, ho-hum, typical expected, PLUS contentious comments and

and then in a clique-ish psycontrol ..the minions are cajoled, 'herded', browbeat to a popularity by numbers, though lowest common denominator consensus to

a centric ..moderate (moderatOR?) establishment position

as if there is some unspoken politically correct parameter or thought boundary that one cannot go to or is deemed not possible or hopeless.

well i tell ya' if we let go the reins, and open mindedly grasp for the true and good, enough people will jump on board...
WE WILL HAVE CRITICAL MASS and with determination & courage ~NewWorlds~~ all things are possible because of the fact and reliance of our~~~
divin!ty.

"contempt for the intuition and intelligence of the Public is really stifling growth, change, creativity and a NewDay Forward!"

I agree with the perspective of post #182

consensus is shifting and you start bitching
sometimes you don't have to be the conductor but a conduit

swallow some pride, dissolve a little ego, 'by any means necessary'

could be the 'lead' is calling for fresh and radical approach
'radical' we shan't be scared, it only means 'roots' bach to the root, origin.

surely we are already there-back to the beginning, with an unprecendented challenge to the very constitution and protection from tyranny.

maybe your talk would have resonated, if you left dean out and focused, on innocent Iraqi's, who had to stay inside with either dead or dying realtives, cause of sniper fire, or moms that endured as only son bled to death for 4 hours, because house fell on him from jet's bombing. you did honor Marla, her and people like Rachel Corrie have more courage, heroism than men 3times their weight, 3times their age, 3times their experience,and 'reputation'


I respect Dean for tough talk at times, & have some compliments for his team, but he hasn't done much. alot of regular folks are seizing ground and providing cover, stretching consensus to enable

Like other have given you feedback, that you look over your shoulder, when you write, think about how you sound, play hotshot and mistakenly try to mirror and outdo tactics of the side that reprehensibly does not honor ethical, mature standards and Fairness, ie; They have big personalities, so We need big personalities..read; ego

wait...this we/they us/them that is what Dennis teaches about the failure and 'disease' of Dichotomous thinking is at the root of our gridlock, paralysis.

your either with us or against us is being internalized in progressives? we must still reach out a hand as little do they realize, we have 'their' best interests in mind AllSow, when we allow our selves to be conduits for the Truth that is in-charge.

'bloom' makes a valid point and you respond -oh yeah thanks for kicking my thread to the top again. teasing and more concern for quantity and not quality ?

conflict convolution, myopic revolution of subjective banality's or confict resolution, goal-oriented better choices building imperative solutions.

you gotta get your kicks

so here is a soft KICK, wearing tennis shoes....


A LONG HABIT OF NOT THINKING A THING WRONG

GIVES IT A SUPERFICIAL APPEARENCE OF BEING RIGHT

AND RAISES AT FIRST, A FORMIDABLE OUTCRY IN DEFENSE OF CUSTOM

BUT TUMULT....SOON SUBSIDES

TIME MAKES MORE CONVERTS THAN REASON

-Thomas Paine & Mark Twain wouldn't board this killin' train.

FIRST THEY IGNORE YOU

THEN THEY SHAME YOU

THEN THEY RIDICULE YOU

THEN, THEY FIGHT YOU

THEN YOU WIN, LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL


GOD BLESS YOUR PURE HEART, All those trying to join/be/stay....
in~of~with The Light

gimmee my 'Space' MAN !

signed,
a brother who bothered

In other words, when former intelligence operatives get a new job in the media, does their psychological warfare ever stop? Mind control by mass media manipulation is just another variation of the Hegelian Dialectic, the concept that "conflict creates history." The theory is simple -- if you control the conflict, you control the outcome. In other words, an existing force (the thesis) generates an opposing force (the antithesis) and the conflict between the two creates the final effect (the synthesis). " Uri Dowbenko, from "The General's Daughter: Psyops & the Military Career Criminal"

check out this authors book~ HoodWinked: Watching Movies With Eyes WidE opEN

[goodboy]

257. I wish you'd change the word 'liberal' to hypocrite.

lumping liberals together like this is like saying all black people are lazy...

[Tigress DEM]

260. Yeah or maybe they were freepers attending the event.

[norml]

261. Sounds more like personality problems, rather than political problems.

You might run into the same sort of thing at a camera club, or in a gardening society.

[The Traveler]

264. As a group, we seek perfection

but right now I would be content with progress. Unless we begin to accept that our common purposes are more significant than our differences, we cannot prevail.

That being said, I must disclose the following about myself.

1) I am disgustingly straight. But I cannot compromise on the rights of gays to marry. This is a civil rights issue ... pure and simple. We're either on the right side or we're on the wrong side. Take a stand. We cannot win by doing the wrong thing.

2) I am not a pacifist. I want a strong national defense. I want it employed sparingly, conservatively, and precisely. War sucks. I know what burning babies smell like. I never want to experience that again. I certainly don't want to experience it here. The best way to achieve that is to beef up the military while simultaneously establishing a Department of Peace. Perhaps that function could be discharged under the Department of State ... but you get the idea. Dennis is right. Until we spend as much effort trying to prevent war as we are willing to fight 'em, we'll always have conflict. We must be fiercely compassionate in our dealings with the world ... always ready to fight, always ready to find a way to NOT pull the trigger. Still, only the naieve can believe we can get through all that lies before us without a fight or three. There are some bad, mad people out there. It sucks. Deal with it. Flip side of that coin: We are engaged in an unncessary conflict that saps our strength and brutalizes too many innocent bystanders. It is a stain upon our honor. We should have never invaded. Again, all we can do is deal with it and do the next right thing. We broke it ... we own it. God help us.

3) Global warming is really happening, and it means we are in a struggle for the lives of our children. We must deal with it as best we can. Our solutions will not be perfect, for there are no perfect solutions. But on this issue we as a nation better get effective. Fast. That means sacrifice. No one wants to talk about that. My fellow Georgian, Jimmy Carter, tried to tell us ... we followed Reagan back to the fifties for some short term good times. Bad decision. Our road is rougher than it had to be. Again, deal with it.

At this point, you're either on board on these matters or you are not. If you are not, I cannot take you seriously. I will not vote for any individual who will not fight to secure the God-given rights of gay people. I will note vote for those who would diminish our ability to defend ourselves. Nor shall I vote for any individual in denial about global warming.

If that makes me a bad liberal, then someone here should probably spank me.

:evilgrin: