Okay,... So I teach "at risk" kids, here's my take on the handcuffed kid.

[liberalitch]

Okay here's what we know:
This problem was the second such situation in a week with this child in which the authorities were called..... Why were they called?
Because the mother had forbidden the school admin. from touching her that's why. YET..... SHE could not come to the school when HER untouchable child was freaking the fuck out.

That being said..... This child has serious problems which NO DOUBT began at home.... Her (mom's) lawyer says, "we're bringing unspecified legal action." That's slang for we'll sue....unless it is proven that this mother was a lousy parent and school partner.
.... and the school obviously has a lousy crisis tree.

This is what I would have done....
If the child refused to settle down as soon as she was in the Ape's office and motheroftheyear couldn't come in I would have called CPS (child protective services) OR the child's social worker (I'll bet my last lint ball she's got one) then the ball is in their court and mom has to deal with them.

Lucy will have a lot of 'splainin' to do:
Mom: What makes you think that you can pick up my child and take her to your office?
CPS: Haven't you given the school the right to deal with your child within a proper discipline plan?
Mom: I'll deal with my baby
CPS: Why haven't you?
- Then she would legally have to submit her child to anger management classes

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. Perhaps she didn't want her child touched because there was some

history with the school.

I think there's lots of ways to cam or distract a kid without handcuffing them.

It also does not surprise me that the mother was working and could not leave work in a heartbeat.

[lastliberalintexas]

21. I don't know all the facts about this particular parent

But it seems from little I do know that she was a part of the problem. I can tell you from the teachers and counselors I've represented, that I would never be able to deal with the parents they face these days. Too many students are thrust upon the schools for mere babysitting and have uber defensive parents who fight the school about each and every adverse decision concerning their child. And the administrators and board members are jokes, for the most part. One teacher was actually forced to continue "teaching" a student who'd brought a razorblade to class. Superintendents and school boards are so afraid to act, that vocal, defensive parents run roughshod over them, and thus the teachers, school counselors and principals have no support for their action against the students.

We seem to have far too many parents who think their little angels can do no wrong, and have forbidden the school from taking action against their child. I am in no way implying that parents should be required to allow physical discipline of their children, but appropriate physical restraint should be allowed, mostly to prevent the children from hurting themselves even.

This little girl needed help long before this incident. Unfortunately, public schools no longer have the resources to provide that kind of help. And most parents don't either, as any type of private counseling is very costly. It's very sad that it turned out the way it did, and there is plenty of blame to go around. But from what I've seen of this case in particular and the school system in general, I'd have to lay most of it at the parents' feet. I hope that they step up to the plate and act in the best interest of their daughter, rather than serving as this week's publicity hounds.


And yes, if employees actually had any rights in this country the parent(s) would have been entitled to leave work to meet with the school officials. Hopefully before the situation escalated to what it is now.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

22. your post certainly underscores how multifactorial these problems are

I haven't seen much of the case..but I think we're getting pretty militarized when we cuff 5 year olds

[lastliberalintexas]

23. Yes, I certainly disagree with the cuffing

She is only 5, after all. And I'm probably pretty biased, since I tend to favor the students and teachers' points of view over those of the parents. I (mostly) jokingly say that our public education system would be wonderful if we could just keep the parents out.



Yes, I know there are exceptions to that sentiment, so to those of you ready to flame me, just don't.

[Just Me]

61. The "media-zation" of that, should be taken to court!!!

All involved in "publishing" that trauma should pay out the A, BIG TIME!!!

However, I'd make the complete scuzzbuckets serve the next five years of their lives educating others about how making a public spectacle out of a five-year-old is the absolute MOST evil thing any adult human being could ever do in their lifetime!!!

With respect to the five-year-old CHILD, I repeat, CHILD,...I'd order both the baby girl and her momma to have a complete physical and psychological exam (at the expense of the DEFENDANTS), with a second and third opinion to verify diagnosis. Both would be ORDERED to comply with treatment for six months, at which time they would appear before the court for an update on their progress.

On edit: the media has become a dang circus,...making a spectacle of human struggle,...and, I just wasn't sure what to call that. So, I adjusted "medization" to "media-zation" which still falls short of what I'm trying to convey: a demonization of human frailty, weakness, struggle, imperfection. What do you call that?

[proud2BlibKansan]

66. Any parent who truly cared and wanted to help their child

would drop everything and rush to school to help their child, regardless of the consequences at work. And Mom does have the right, under the Family and Medical Leave Act, to do just that in this situation and not lose her job.

Sorry, but we deal with too many parents like this one. They can''t control their kids, give up trying and expect the school to turn them into model citizens. Unfortunately, we are educators, not miracle workers, and when a parent refuses to cooperate as this one did, it is a miracle if the child learns to respect authority and follow rules at school.

[bushisanidiot]

2. That 5 year old little girl could be autistic or have another behavioral

disorder that she either needs therapy for or medication for (or both). Sending her to anger management classes at 5 years old as if she is just some spoiled brat kid, is just insane. Don't bother trying to figure out why the poor kid is so troubled.. just punish her until she stops, right?

[liberalitch]

29. Oh, of course not but (according to NPR)...

Mommy had refused any sort of counseling or aid.

So, just ignore the problem and LOVE the child and it will go away.... right?

[bushisanidiot]

32. Ignore the problem is the opposite of what I suggested

the little girl probably feels ignored enough as it is. but calling the cops on a 5 year old girl and using the parents lack of parenting skills as an excuse, is pure CRAP.

[Goblinmonger]

3. I think you have it dead on

I'm sure mom was pissed but couldn't take the time to develop a 504 plan or anything. I do agree the CPS should have been called and not the police.

From and English teacher that does not teach "at risk" kids on a daily basis, bless you and all that you do.

[RobinA]

4. Yeah, But

I'm with CPS, and I'm going to tell you (in my state, PA) to call the police, because the police are the ONLY people, outside a residential facility, who are allowed to take the measures necessary to get an out of control person/child under control and keep them from hurting someone or themselves.

That's a fact that all the people on here whining about why the police were called to subdue a 5 year old have to understand. No one else has the authority to do anything.

And as for the person who suggested that someone get down on the child's level and offer crayons.... All I can say is that's a good way to get smashed in the face.

[JNelson6563]

7. Exactly. School followed the law.

The mother tied their hands when she refused to let them try to subdue her more gently. They had to contain the child if for no other reason, for the sake of the other children. The only option they had was to call the police.

I don't think there's much of a legal case against the school.

Julie

[liberalitch]

30. She was already up on the table and attempting to kick the...

AP in the face

[Cleita]

5. Remembering my own school days more than fifty years ago.

Incorrigible kids sent to the principal's office were confined in the reception area under the eye of another adult often the school nurse. The principal called the parents and told them to come pick him up and take him home. They wouldn't take no for an answer. The kid would have to stay there all day if needed if the parent didn't cooperate.

The incorrigible was allowed to do or say whatever he wanted to in that setting and was pretty much ignored. (There wasn't usually anything for him to destroy in there that he could access or a way out.) They would let him scream his head off, kick and generally act out and they ignored him.

When the parent arrived a teacher, principal and parent meeting advised the parent that their kid was indefinitely suspended until they solved the problem about his behavior and how the teachers could deal with him in the future.

In a really bad situation, there was a person called the truant officer they could call. He didn't just chase kids playing hookey. He was a policeman, and well back then more than fifty years ago, he was a little intimidating even to the parents. His job was often explaining to them what the law could do if they didn't take charge and come up with a solution for everyone concerned.

He advised them that the child could be taken into the foster care system if they didn't do what needed to be done. There was no handcuffing or arrests involved unless the kid had committed a crime like vandalism and even then there was no handcuffing.

I don't know if this would work today though, but I remember my classrooms being fairly peaceful with few disruptions back then. I also think the parents had to respect the authority of the school administration more back then.

[liberalitch]

31. If I had behaved the way that child did my mother would have...

seen to it that I now occupied a shallow grave in Norfolk, va.

Parents didn't used to tolerate their kids' humiliating them in front of school officials


Last week I had a young man who was arrested for beating up his own mom.

[barb162]

175. "young man who was arrested for beating up his own mom"

oh my god

[barb162]

174. it was pretty much the same with me

except they were not allowed to do things as noted in your second paragraph. They had to be quiet or the police would be called. Outbursts or whatever you want to call them were not allowed.

[Catchawave]

6. I agree with you lib.....

CPS should have definitely been called.

As they should have been when those kids were cuffed at the Schiavo Hospice protest !

[passy]

8. Isn't it easy to blame the parents.

Reading your post it seems that you totally blame the parent for the child's behavior without knowing very much about this case.
"This child has serious problems which NO DOUBT began at home"
Of course you have no knowledge of what her home situation is like, you have no idea if she might have been abused by anyone in or outside her home, if she suffers from any medical condition, be it physical or psychological and why her mother could not come to help her out of this crisis.
The bottom line to this story is that under no circumstance should you handcuff a 5 year old child. I seriously think that whatever was troubling that poor girl, that this type of attitude will only help to make it worse.
This whole episode is disgusting and should never have taken place.
You say that you teach "at risk" kids and your first thought is to call CPS instead of trying to deal with the situation yourself. I don't know if you have had training in dealing with this kind of situation but you should be able to deal with a 5 year old by your self even one that runs around throwing things. Of course I understand that the fact that the mother has forbidden the school administration from touching her, makes it much harder.
But if she trusted the school to do the right thing and have teachers that are trained for this kind of crisis, she wouldn't have been so negative to her daughter being physically constrained in a safe and positive manner. Reassurance could have been offered by the school that this could be done and I'm sure she would have accepted it to be in her child's best interest.
Of course if the school had no members of staff that knew anything about the proper way of handling children that behave in a destructive and violent manner and the parent of the child is not available then problems are sure to arise.
Although I would think that calling the cops on a 5 year old has to be the last option on a very long list of possibilities.

[RobinA]

9. Teachers

are not trained to be mental health crisis workers. Neither is CPS. The police are who you call for this. If there is a local mental health crisis unit, THEY will call the police.

I am a CPS worker. If I (or a teacher, or anybody)am walking down the street on the job and I see a 2 year old walking down the street unattended and I follow the child for 10 blocks and no one ever attends the child, I cannot pick up the child and take her to my office, or the police station, I have to call the police.

This is the way the law works.

[formernaderite]

10. Okay then...

"f course I understand that the fact that the mother has forbidden the school administration from touching her, makes it much harder."

much harder? WTF, should they have done...thrown a net over her? It is sad how we have deteriorated the authority of teachers and school administration. I don't blame them for calling the cops...what were they supposed to do? They simply passed on the liability...it's this poor kid that has no chance. Though I don't personally see handcuffs as the huge deal they're being made out to be.

[mondo joe]

16. Since the mother HERSELF called the police when the kid was 3

I think it's safe to suspect there may in fact be some problems at home.

And forbidding the school staff to TOUCH the child is not a good indicator of her willingness to work with the system to a better outcome.

[liberalitch]

27. The child was a frequent cause for police calls when she was three....

YES I do teach "at risk" kids.... everything that you wrote indicates that you know nothing about educating the "at risk".

No I do not say that the kid should have been cuffed, but the film I saw said to me that at that point she is a danger to herself and the staff.

AND I do not know what their response system in Tx is but in Va.... things get out of hand..... call CPS and the school shrink.
This school was not even allowed by the parents to "nonviolently restrain" the child.

HANDLE IT MYSELF: Hmmmm, sounds like someone who has never been in a class full of 25-30, 15-17 year olds who have "issues".....
I am female, 5ft.2in, 112 lbs..... sorry things get freaky I call the school resource officer.... and people have gone out of room D31 in cuffs at least three times in the past 14 years.

[passy]

35. Sorry for knowing nothing.

I would just like to say that we are not talking about 15-17 year olds here. I did not suggest that you should handle a child that old by yourself. A five year old in an empty class room is a very different matter. You also mention that in your experience you would have enlisted the help of the school shrink, something you did not mention in your first post.
I also reacted to the way you seemed to accuse the mother for the child's condition and criticized her for not being able to come to the school quicker without knowing the facts.
If this girl already has a history of violent behavior at the age of five then this should should have been taken into account when she started at this school, but as a poster mentioned with the cuts in education being bigger and bigger mental health is one of the sectors suffering the most.

[ProfessorGAC]

59. Let Me Check With My Wife

She's been teaching special ed, emotional distrubance, behavior disorder, and at-risk kids since 1977! Then you can tell HER she knows nothing about it.

You have absolutely no idea what others on this board know or don't know. If your mind is completely made up on this issue, that's your right, but don't expect others to toe the line, just because you say so.

My wife probably knows a thing or two, and when i called her last night from here in Boston, the little girl with cuffs was the FIRST THING SHE BROUGHT UP! Her first reaction: What did the admins and teachers learn over their career? What were those cops thinking?

You want me to tell her that you think she doesn't know anything either? I doubt she would agree.
The Professor

[liberalitch]

155. I didn't say anything about the wife.... what I said was that...

it's clear YOU never had to deal with what those extremely professional people at the school had to deal with..... being a professor.... rarely requires wrestling....

[MsTryska]

28. I have a tough time buying your reasoning.....

judging fromt he mother's behavior in all this either she is blind to the fact that her child has a behavioral problem (and watching the full tape i'm pretty convinced she does) or she doesn't care or believe in them.


parents who are taking care of their kids understand the problem and work WITH the school, and any other caregivers - not actively tie their hands.

[okieinpain]

123. well here we go again. " I would just talk to her and she would sit

right down and be a good little girl. see the teachers are stupid, and all they have to do is be nice to the little girl and everything would be just peachy"


:~(

[hector459]

11. Why didn't they call "The Nanny?" That's what they do for all those

little white children who all but murder their parents.

[mondo joe]

14. Gee, maybe because it's the parents calling Supernanny.

Not that this kid couldn't use it.

[XemaSab]

20. White children have nannies,

Children of color have the cops.

[liberalitch]

34. Now, now.... we're acting like there are no poor white kids again

I grew up DIRT poor and had NO nanny....

My mother, who did not drive, WALKED up (7 miles) to get me if ever I was bad or sick.... Sick was no problem.... but LORD HAVE MERCY.... don't let it be cause I was bad!

[TreasonousBastard]

12. A lot of people seem to have THE answer...

but you and a few others who have actually dealt with this sort of thing seem to be spot on.

Not knowing all of the circumstances, no one here can say exactly what should have been done, but the problems certainly seem deeper than the simple act of the handcuffs.

We don't know what the homelife is like, and we don't know what therapy, if any, the child is going through.

We do know that calling the police in was probably the only option under the circumstances, and we can take a pretty good guess that better-trained cops would have better ways of subduing the child than cuffing her.

[tjdee]

44. The only option is to call the police?

So when a kid acts up in school, the police should be called?

Honestly?

[RobinA]

141. Yes

If the child is acting up in an uncontrollable way. No one else is allowed to do anything other than talk to the child.

[noiretextatique]

166. isn't that what school counselors are for?

:shrug: not so sure the schools in florida have funding for them though.

[merh]

13. Posted in another thread.

What the majority of the "pro teachers/school" posters, the "bad cops/bad school" posters and the pro parent/bad parent posters have missed is that these type of "incidents" will continue to happen and will escalate because of the cut backs in funding to education, social services, law enforcement and the almost none existent funding for mental health. Add to that our awful economy that forces parents to work too much at too many jobs, neglecting their children so that they can provide for their children, and we are on a downward spiral. Not excusing the extreme measures that this school chose to take, just saying things like this will continue to happen because of the thugs we have running our nation.

Things will get worse folks, as long as we have the theiving, corrupt bastards in office, piratizing everything, not funding social services, not caring about the families they profess to represent. What family values do they really care about? Protecting estate taxes and tax cuts for the rich while not funding after school programs or "no child left behind" programs. Schools are cutting positions because there is no funding, classrooms are growing in size and a "teacher's aid" is an almost extinct position.

Not until we get the snakes out of our government will we see an improvement. Every day they remain in office incidents like this will continue to occur and will increase in number and frequency.

Recognize the true issues and debate them and how we can make changes and what we can do.



www.missionnotaccomplished.us

[chalky]

86. THANK YOU! Someone is FINALLY getting to the crux of the matter!

And in the many, MANY threads I've seen on this subject, I keep running into the same unanswered questions:

Does the mother have transportation to get to the school ASAP, or does she use public transportation that would take her an hour to get there?

Does the mother have an understanding job/boss that would let her leave at a moment's notice? Would she have to make a choice of having her pay docked (or worse, lose her job)? And would that choice make the difference between having food or shelter?

What history did the mother have with the school(or any institution) that made her tell the school "Hands off"?

What kind of help did she have if she resorted to calling the police when the child was 3 years old? Why didn't the fact that she called the police on her 3-year-old trigger some sort of referral a program to help her?

This child obviously didn't spring into existence as a rabid, "evil-eyed" 5-year old. SOME SAD CONFLUENCE OF FAILURES GOT US TO THIS STATE.

[proud2BlibKansan]

15. I watched the video again last night

and saw a portion I had never seen. The look on the little girl's face as the cops were talking to her (before they handcuffed her) was one of sheer evil. She was rocking back and forth and gripping that chair so hard you could tell she was ready to pounce at any moment. Those cops had every reason to restrain her. After seeing that, I do say they did exactly the right thing.

I too work with at risk kids and the few times I have seen a kid with that kind of look it caused me to immediately remove the other students and get help for the raging child ASAP.

Speaking of Mom's lawyer, she fired him. I heard him interviewed last night. His tone was much calmer now that she is no longer his client. (surprise)

This mother sounds like a clueless idiot. TWO incidents in a week and she orders the school staff not to touch her child, yet she doesn't drop everything and come to school when her kid is having a tantrum. Sorry Mom, no sympathy here. I am a mom too and my kids come first, before everything else, even my job. I also never called the police to help me control them when they were three years old.

[merh]

18. You cannot be serious. The look in her eyes justified that she be

cuffed? A FIVE (5) YEAR OLD GIRL - the look in her eyes? Please tell me you wouldn't handcuff or have someone handcuff a child because of the "look in their eyes"? :scared:

[liberalitch]

37. Beeep sorry.... those of us "on the job" know...

"the look"...
Sorry it's a fact after 14 years.... I see that "look" and I look to protect the other kids and myself.... AND get help for the flippin' out kid

[merh]

40. BEEP, sorry, those of us who have had to deal with adults in these

types of situations know those looks too! Jesus Christ, she is a fucking five (5) year old child. I have stood between a 35 year old, 300 pound female having a schizophrenic episode and the deputies/jailers that wanted to pepper spray her and beat the shit out of her with an asp, despite "that look", actually, because of "that look".

Your fear should not dictate abusive action or "restraint" when none is necessary. There are certain people in this world that have a different sensory system than you and I. Little noises, tones, stares, giggles and whispers can set them off. It is not the fear of the child that should cause one to reaction, but fear for that child if the reaction is wrong or too harsh or too extreme or not enough.

The child "had that look" because she was fucking frightened. She was a "trapped" animal, being handled by untrained and moronic handlers.

Don't tell me about that look, I would put my experience with people with these type of disorders against yours in a new york second. Get some training if you don't know how to handle that look!

It is about tone, it is about body language and it is about making them feel safe. It is about a sense of quiet, a sense of calm, it is not about 4 people or 10 people or 15 people gauking and video taping and whispering. It definitely is not about 3 police officers hand cuffing this FIVE (5) YEAR OLD CHILD!

Social Services/Child Welfare should have been called in after she was removed to a room where she could have been left alone, in the quiet, not to be observed by everyone. I would bet you a dollar to a doughnut that if she was left in a quiet room for 15 minutes, without all of the commotion and activity and stares, she would have fallen asleep - it was nap time and she was ONLY FIVE (5) YEARS OLD!

Everyone says, what about the needs and rights of the other children, well take them out to recess, bring them to the gym for gym class, walk them on the campus for a nature walk -- adapt for christ sake.

[tjdee]

41. Don't forget the shackling of her legs!

Because that happened too, apparently.

So, if you don't sit down, or walk (not run) around tearing up papers and knocking things over, you can be handcuffed and shackled like a prisoner on death row.

Even if you're five!

I agree with your post.

[merh]

45. This just scares the hell out of me, more so than the look

in a five (5) year old's eyes. :cry:

Suffer the little children unto me!

Whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me.

A little five (5) year old that could cause such fear and such anger! :cry:

[Horse with no Name]

51. You're my hero

:grouphug:
I almost decided to leave DU over some of the responses that I read advocating this for this child, but instead, took a deep breath and backed off of the topic.
I agree with you 110%.

[merh]

57. Don't leave the community because a few are so conflicted as

to what is the proper response to this issue.

Many have watched that video over and over again, as if they want to find some type of justification for the behavior, wondering how they would handle it.

For those who wonder how they would handle it, I can only suggest they remember the golden rule. How would you want to be treated if this was you and/or how would you want your child to be treated?

Don't give me that crap, if it were my kid, they would never act out this way. You just don't know, you can't say.

No one has said what caused this child to go off the way she did. Even if she had no reason, HAND CUFFING A 5 YEAR OLD IS WRONG!


:blush: Thank you for the kind words. Stay, please stay, we need all the hearts and minds we can get to beat the evil that is poisoning our society. :hug:

[ultraist]

54. "the look" and "sheer evil"

What a horrible way to speak about a FIVE YEAR OLD CHILD. It's frightening that such people work with children.

I've noticed a trend towards puritanical and demonizing attitudes toward children and increased discussions of harsh and abusive punishment of children.

[merh]

56. I have worked with guys on death row and siociopaths and

"crazed rapists". You want evil, they have evil in their eyes, but guess what, even they are humans and they deserve to be treated like humans.

The talk of many here is the same type of talk that justifies the torture and abuse of those evil "rag heads". Do these same people condone abuse in jails? Hell no! Do they condone torture? I bet not.

If anyone can find the justification in HANDCUFFING A FIVE (5) YEAR OLD LITTLE GIRL, then they are one step away from shocking or beating a terrorist to make him tell us about the other terrorists that might blow us up one day.

"What other options do we have, it is for the safety of our nation!"

I CALL BULLSHIT!

Any teacher, social worker, or other professional that condones and accepts this behavior by the school and law enforcement should be looking for another job or, at the very least, be signing up for classes to learn how to properly handle situations like this.

[H2O Man]

It's scarey.

Some of these people should never be around children in a classroom setting.

[merh]

70. Some of these people should never be around children

in any setting! :cry:

JESUS LOVES THE LITTLE CHILDREN

"Jesus loves the little children,
All the children of the world,
Red and yellow, black and white,
They are precious in his sight,
Jesus loves the little children of the world."

[H2O Man]

74. "I believe implicitly that the child

is not born mischeivous in the bad sense of the term. If parents behave themselves while the child is growing, the child will instinctively obey the law of truth and the law of love. ... From my experience with hundreds of children, I know they have a finer sense of honor than you and I have. ... Jesus never uttered a loftier or grander truth than when he said that wisdom comes out of the mouth of babes. I believe it." - Gandhi

[H2O Man]

75. "Out of the mouth of babes

and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger. - Psalm 8:2

"And Jesus said unto them, 'Yea, have you not read, "Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise"?'"
-- Matthew 21:16

[H2O Man]

77. "And I will give children

to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them." - Isaiah 3:4


"In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, 'I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hid these things from the wise and prudent, and have revealed them unto babes.'"
-- Luke 10:21

[merh]

80. Amen.

This child is our future and look how we have treated her.

What will she think of law enforcement now?
How will she ever trust her teachers?

Fear is a horrible teacher! :cry:

[liberalitch]

150. YOu agree with most of what I said in my original post....

CPS or a social worker.... but no handcuffs!

I'm sorry.... My parents raised me and I feel that their guidance helped me be a person with self control, all parents should do as much for their child.... this mother did not....

[merh]

157. Guess you know this is a perfectly healthy five (5) year old.

Damn, do you make your call from the video alone?

[laylah]

135. As another

youth care worker, as much as I hated the thought of the kid being cuffed, the thought of her getting away, running into the street, and getting hit by a car would have been much worse!

I read where mom has a deal with a tabloid and is moving she and the kiddo out of the area. Just an fyi.

Jenn

[liberalitch]

148. In my past experience "the move" takes place....

After the real issues come to light.
That she did not do all she could do to assist in her child's educational experience.

Oh, well I guess some of us have better things to do.... I'll bet her hair and nails look great!

[proud2BlibKansan]

38. Watch it

It is really scary. The tape also shows several different adults trying to restrain her but she squirms away every time and resumes trashing the room and the office. She jumps up on furniture and pounds her fists into people and objects. It is unbelievable that she didn't get hurt. I am also pretty certain that a few adults were injured by her; that is also obvious when you view the whole tape.

This little girl is disturbed. She is clearly a danger to herself and others. The police dept's policy is to handcuff people to prevent them from injuring themselves or others. You can also hear the cops tell her that they talked to her mother and mother said to handcuff her if she didn't calm down.

So saying no, it's not right to handcuff a 5 year old, regardless of the circumstances, is just not right. I challenge anyone who feels this way to watch that tape and decide what the cops should have done instead of handcuffing her. Something needed to be done. If not handcuffs, then what?

[tjdee]

42. Are we watching the same tape?

It's scary??

Y'all all had me set up to see some kind of demon seed, LOL....and it was *nothing* like that, IMO. She wasn't even moving fast. She wasn't screaming.

I certainly would want everyone to see the videos, because obviously it can be interpreted in fifty thousand different ways.

I also didn't see her trying to kick the teacher when she was on the table (as liberalitch suggested).

Here are the videos:
http://www.sptimes.com/2005/04/22/Southpinellas/Video_shows_police_ha.shtml

[proud2BlibKansan]

46. The portion they showed on KO last night

was very different from any of the other videos I have seen. She was much more violent than in the videos from the classroom.

The videos posted here won't play on my computer. But I did find an article with some good points in it:

In schools, violence starting at earlier age

Increasingly, teachers face the task of controlling kids, even kindergarteners, who lash out physically.

She terrorized Room 13 at Fairmount Park Elementary, trashing Mrs. O's desk, smashing a candy dish and kicking another teacher in the shins, officials said.

At the principal's office, it got worse. The girl threw books and boxes, climbed atop the desk and started stomping. She drew on the walls, hit the assistant principal in the stomach.

The number of Pinellas students referred to administrators for discipline was down slightly in 2003-04 from the previous academic year. But referrals for student violence, such as battery on adults and fighting, are way up. Pinellas elementary schools reported 406 referals for batteries on adults last school year, up from 272 the year before.

"We're just seeing more and more children at younger ages displaying very, very violent behavior," said Pinellas school spokesman Ron Stone. Pinellas has no written policies for physical contact when a student shows aggression.

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/03/18/Tampabay/In_schools__violence_.shtml

[merh]

43. The look of a scared child scares you?

Jesus get out now, retire when you have the time in.

That is fear, she has been the subject of ridicule, torment, aggravation and now attack by the police. After she sat there quietly for five minutes or so at the table, after she sat there, not doing anything, they send the police in to get her.

SHE IS A FIVE (5) YEAR OLD CHILD! She doesn't have your ability to comprehend and time passages are so different to children. 5 minutes to her is like an hour to me. She was sitting still and behaving and the cops come in to get her and tell her, I told you I would cuff you. That look is fear, it is not evil. When some people are afraid, the only course of action they know is to attack or to appear as the aggressor.

I am crying as I type this because you see the "look as evil" when it was "fear" - Put yourself in her place. Be a child again and imagine the fear she felt.

Damn - this is the most depressing topic I can imagine.

SHE IS A FIVE (5) YEAR OLD CHILD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[proud2BlibKansan]

48. That is not fear

And the look I am referring to is the look she had on her face BEFORE the cops started talking to her.

Yes, it is a depressing topic. She is a violent child crying out for help. It is also infuriating that her mother appears more interested in publicity than in getting help for her child.

[merh]

50. When being oppressed, assaulted or attacked, fear often

looks "evil". It is a way to scare off the oppressor/attacker.

This is about the school's unprofessional reaction and failure to have adequate plans to handle this situation and the illegal action of the police.

Let's say the mother had been killed and could not come to the child, does that make any of the actions of the school less appalling or the cuffing less illegal?

The mother apparently cannot be absolved from blame, but this video is about the school and the police, not the mother.

Again, I have seen these "looks" and they are fear. Some people don't understand as you and I do, some people's brains have circuitry that work differently than ours. Does that entitle us to treat them badly?

As I have posted in the past, does anyone know what caused this child to act out? No, but they continue to label the child "evil" and her behavior "bad" when it could have been defensive or reactionary to what she perceived a threat.

[mondo joe]

53. Or maybe she's a little sociopath.

She posed a danger to herself and other students.

Her mother saw to it that the school had no ability to restrain her.

They took the only option available to them.

[merh]

55. What the hell!

What danger did she pose to the other children? Where in that video did you see that?

=================================
OPTION:
Class, we are all going to go outside for a walk on the grounds. Mrs. Smith will lead and Mrs. Jones will be with her. I want you all to consider this a part of your science work. Find a rock, an acorn, a leaf, a blade of grass that you like and bring it back with you. We will then talk about them and draw a picture of them later on.
==================================

Then the class leaves and you have a one on one (on video if preferred) with the child. Even in this instance, the child was removed from the rest of the class and was in the principals office.

SHE WAS A FIVE (5) YEAR OLD CHILD - you can't even come close to diagnosing her a sociopath at this stage. AND WHAT CAUSED HER TO ACT OUT? DO you care?

GIVE ME A BREAK!!! SHE IS FIVE (5) YEARS OLD!



They took the wrong option, there are hundreds of others like the one I described above. Imagination, empathy, compassion and respect have to be used daily, not just by teachers, but by each and every one of us.

[H2O Man]

65. Obviously you didn't see

that the "5-year old" (I am convinced she is at very least 34) was wearing an Angela Davis t-shirt. You have offered no convincing proof, merh, that this woman-child had not commited numerous murders in the past, as well as in the future. In the educational guidebook "Teachers Are From Honor Role, Parents Are From Detention," it clearly states that in cases involving children under 6, teachers should use stun-guns.

Try to be more objective, and accept the wisdom and insight expressed by those who note, among other gems, that: {1} the mother should be turned in to social services for NOT ALLOWING her child to be spanked; {2} this 6-year old has Charles Manson-like eyes; {3} she is surely a sociopath -- what other explanation could there be?;{4} her mother could get free mental health services .... even though she was not able to get to the school before the cops, it can't be because her workplace is not willing to let her come and go at will (ALL workplaces are progressive, as you know) .... her type likely gets welfare, even if she has to cheat (handcuff her on suspicion!); and {5} this 5-year old needs to be in an anger management group.

[merh]

69. LOL

The only one that should be in anger management is me at this point. That and a couple of BC powders for my head as I continue to pound it against the closed minds that post justification for handcuffing a FIVE (5) YEAR OLD might help me get past the outrage that I feel every time I read someone defending the school and the cops! :banghead:

:hug: Have I told you lately that I love you my friend! :hug:

She is only five (5) years old!!! :cry:

[H2O Man]

71. At first I thought

we were intruding on a game of faculty charades; I was going to guess "what wass wrong with the old Catholic schools in Ireland?" But then I realized that we stepped on the stage of the faculty cast for "Lord of the Flies." A learning experience.

[merh]

78. You know, even my parents (who were firm believers that the

actions of the Catholic nuns that provided my elementary education were always right and should never be questioned) would have found handcuffing a bit much.

:banghead: SHE IS ONLY FIVE (5) YEARS OLD! :cry:

[H2O Man]

79. What terrible things

went wrong in some peoples' lives, that keeps them from seeing that this was terribly wrong?

[merh]

81. Fear --

Fear of making a mistake when trying to do the right thing.
Fear of getting kicked in the shin when offering a helping hand to someone that is down.

Fear is a horrible teacher!

[H2O Man]

82. "Ignorance

is the mother of all cruelty." - Voltaire

[merh]

83. Fear, like ignorance can be overcome.

If you face your fear and recognize your ignorance.

[mondo joe]

88. How many things does she have to throw before it puts other kids at

risk of injury?

And the idea that the class should have to EVACUATE every time this disturbed kid goes off the deep end is appalling.

[merh]

91. Go back and watch the video again.

She was removed from any contact with the other kids.

Get over it - this was handled improperly by the school and the cops had not legal right to cuff her (thus they violated her civil rights). For you to even consider calling a 5 year old a sociopath is absurd!

SHE IS ONLY FIVE (5) YEARS OLD!! :banghead:

[mondo joe]

94. She was - and she needed to be removed.

And you must not know anyone who has worked with disturbed or violent children.

A 5 year old can indeed pose a threat if unrestrained.

[merh]

96. Wrong again!

And I have personally worked with disturbed and violent adults and have been able to calm them and diffuse a situation without force, tasers, pepper spray or handcuffs.

A five year old is not a threat, sad you think she is. :cry:

[mondo joe]

99. A 5 year can indeed be a threat. Unfortunately her mother disallowed any

more gentle restraint.

[merh]

100. Restraint wasn't necessary.

You have not dealt with disturb children or adults have you?

[mondo joe]

101. Sure - we can just have the teacher spend her whole day tending to one

disturbed child.

After all, the schools are so well funded they can afford a teacher per discipline problem.

[merh]

107. HELLLLLLOOOOOOOOO

Go back and watch the video. The child was removed from the other students and the Vice-principal had "custody" of her.

Try again.

[roguevalley]

102. I have. Frankly, with the full inclusion laws, we have become the

caretakers of idiots. These kids don't belong in the regular classroom but with mainstreaming crammed down our throats, we have to give major energy AT THE EXPENSE OF THE OTHER KIDS to these idiots. Put them in a separate classroom with people to deal with them. I would LOVE to see a parent of a normal kid SUE THE BUTTS off the school district for neglecting or imperiling their kid's education because of idiots like this.

RV, 27 years in the classroom, bitten, slapped and punched.

[mondo joe]

103. I'm so appalled at the willingness to hold hostage the interests of the

rest of the class to cater to one dysfunctional family, and yet more appalled when it's done wrapped up in liberalism.

[merh]

105. Caretakers of idiots?

My god, have you retired yet?

[mondo joe]

108. As a parent who doesn't want my kids' education held hostage by

dysfunctional kids who don't belong in mainstream classes, I hope not!

[merh]

111. The children in that classroom did not have their education held

hostage. The only civil rights in that classroom that were violated were the civil rights of that little five (5) year old girl.

[mondo joe]

112. Sure they did - they had their education disrupted by an out of control

kid who could not be restrained or removed or reasoned with.

And too many people seem to think the teacher should spend her day talking down out of control problem children rather than TEACHING.

[merh]

114. I saw no attempts to reason with the child.

I saw adults who had no clue as to how to talk to the child.

Sorry, been there, done that and it can be done.

[mondo joe]

117. Some reading is helpful:

Some reading is helpful: http://www.nbc6.net/news/4416060/detail.html
Monday, the school district superintendent said it appeared staff and police were following procedure.

"We called our own police. Our own police couldn't get there, so we called the St. Petersburg police," Pinellas County Superintendent Dr. Clayton Wilcox said. "When the St. Pete Police came in, given their history with this young child, they simply acted as police officers do."

"In hindsight, there are probably a lot of things that we could have done, but I'm pleased generally with the way our people handled it," he said. "She was over a table and screaming and it was horrible, but the fact is, there is other video out there on some of the Web sites that clearly shows that we spent over an hour trying to de-escalate that behavior."
*****************
Pinellas County records show that a St. Petersburg apartment complex where she lived moved to evict her on March 31, about two weeks after the handcuffing that put her daughter's face on TV screens across he world....

John Trevena, who had been serving as the attorney for Akins, said he learned from an executive producer at A Current Affair that the girl and her mother traveled to New York City over the weekend, where they stayed at the show's expense....The show blamed Trevena's release of the video to major media outlets last week, including the St. Petersburg Times . The lawyer said a producer from the show "raged" at him last Friday, saying the release of the video violated an exclusive agreement between Akins and A Current Affair.
Trevena said he had been unaware of any agreement.

[merh]

120. Goody, the spin put out by the school.

I watched the entire version of the video that is out. I repeat, I saw no effort by any adult to reason with the child. You would be surprised what body language, lack of fear, tone and the true desire to calm can do to diffuse a situation.

Let me say it again, been there done that. It is possible.

[mondo joe]

124. How many hours should the teacher spend trying to reason w a disturbed

child?

[merh]

126. I don't know, you tell me.

If it is your disturbed child, how many hours is not enough?

Empathy is an amazing gift that you can cultivate and use to your advantage in life, if you only try.

[mondo joe]

128. More than half an hour is too much. And my empathy extends to the kids

who are being deprived of their education - not just the disturbed klid who doesn't belong there to begin with.

When you get over your victim mentality you too may empathize with them.

[merh]

133. No empathy extends to all.

Those other children were not deprives of a thing. If they were, again it was the fault of the school. The school is responsible, legally responsible for the children. They should have had a system in place where they continued the education of the other children while calmly removing the little girl from the environment or vice-a-versa.

So much responsibility on the shoulders of a child.

And you are so wrong in your cute little response of 1/2 hour. If she were your disturbed child you would want the school to spend as much time as possible to calmly handle the situation and not call in the cops.

I don't have a victim mentality, I have an appreciation for all of the victims in our society that we so readly blame for problems they have no control over. Would you prefer that we perform genetic tests at birth and determine the defective children and then just do away with them because they disrupt our perfect society?

[mondo joe]

137. Your empathy can't extend to everyone if you expect the kids to go

without a teacher every time this one disturbed child has a fit.

You say they could have "removed" this child but her mother's Do Not Touch order makes that impossible.

If she were MY disturbed child she'd be getting help and I'd be working WITH the school, not antagonizing it.

I have empathy for this troubled child, but her parent bears the greatest accountability for the choices she makes and the outcomes. When she creates scenarios that negatively impact the rest of the kids it has to be dealt with.

[merh]

147. They did remove the child from the same environment as the other

children and the vice-principal, in theory was handling the matter, if she had been properly trained. It became of game for the adults, stand around and witness the crazy child - they neglected their duties and did not properly handle the situation.

You have no empathy, if you did, you would appreciate that this child, and yes, five years old is still a child without the mental capacity to be evil or criminal, probably has a health issue that results in this behavior. It is so easy to try to lay the blame at her feet, such a small child with such huge responsiblity, but there are so many factors involved.

Things are not always black and white. One day, in time, you may appreciate the complexity of the issue. Go home, hold your child tight and thank the good lord that he is not mentally or physically impaired so that you don't have to face these type of situations.

[proud2BlibKansan]

63. And why would she be perceiving a threat

when she was merely told to clean up and get ready for the next activity in the classroom? 5 year olds across the country are given those directions all day long and the vast majority don't go in to a rage and start throwing things and assaulting teachers.

I understand what caused this child to act out. It's called poor impulse control, difficulty dealing with frustration and trouble controlling anger. Most parents, if they see these types of problems in their child, help them overcome these difficulties. This mother not only refused to come to school and work WITH them to help her child, she also ordered them not to touch her. So I would guess the major problem here is poor parenting.

[merh]

67. The poor parenting is one of the problems.

It is not the only problem.

The unprofessional behavior of the teachers and the vice-principal and the unprofessional and illegal behavior of the cops far outweigh the "bad parenting".

Bad parenting goes on in this world. How we deal with the "victims" of poor parenting is our responsibility. To say that a five (5) year old child deserves to be handcuffed is ludicrous.

How many times have cops used the excuse "they didn't do what I told them, so I peppered sprayed them and cuffed them". Is that excessive force? YES -- and excessive force was used in this situation.

[proud2BlibKansan]

72. I am not going to criticize the cops

because they had a history of being called by both the school AND the mother to help control this little girl. If this had been the first time, I would consider calling this excessive force. But it wasn't the first time.

I also think poor parenting is the major problem here. Just think at what may have NOT happened if this child had been helped through therapy and counseling to control her anger and frustration. And that therapy is clearly the responsibility of the PARENT. I don't believe for a minute that this option had never been suggested to the mother.

I also think it's ludicrous to say a 5 year old should NEVER be restrained or handcuffed. If they are posing a danger to themself or others, what else should be done rather than restrain them?

[merh]

76. One call out to handle the child is not a "HISTORY".

Do me a favor, go to the store, buy some plexi cuffs and have some one strap your wrists behind your back and walk down the street.

Go on, do it, feel those plastic bands cut into your flesh as you wiggle when you walk. EXPERIENCE THE DISCOMFORT and the HUMILIATION.

Try it. Then get back to me.

The child was sitting at the table, not moving, not posing a danger to herself, the other children or the cops (who by the way had guns and asps and pepper spray).

There was no danger - the danger was created when they became the aggressors!

[mondo joe]

89. The school has limited options. It could not restrain her or carry

her in any fashion - and the idea that everyone else should disrupt their day to accommodate her fits is appalling.

Her mother guaranteed there was no option to remove her but to call the police.

[merh]

93. Wrong

There were other options available.

Glad you aren't a teacher.

SHE IS A FIVE (5) YEAR OLD LITTLE GIRL!!!!! :banghead:

[mondo joe]

95. When you learn a bit more about disturbed kids your opinion of

the options willl be more impressive.

[merh]

97. I know a lot about disturbed kids and adults.

Apparently you don't know as much as you think.

The options are there, hundreds of them. Said that handcuffing a five year old is an option you accept as legitimate and justifiable.

When the NYPD put the protestors in a pen because they were afraid of them causing a safety risk, was that just, was that proper?

Is torturing a suspected terrorist in an effort to find out where the other bad terrorist are an acceptable and just action? I mean, afer all, those other terrorists can harm the unit, the country, the world. Violation of civil rights for a just cause is just the right thing to do because it is! :sarcasm:

Handcuffing a five year old child is a violation of that child's civil rights, she cannot lawfully be arrested and handcuffing someone is only an acceptable practice when you are making a lawful arrest or when the child is threatening you with harm. Since the unarmed, five year old little girl was sitting quietly in a chair when the big bad police officers came in to the room and "went for her", their cuffing her was a violation of her civil rights.

NOTHING JUSTIFIES THE TREATMENT THAT CHILD RECEIVED!!

[mondo joe]

98. Here - read about the violent behavior of kids that young:

Here - read about some of the violent behavior in children as young as this one:

http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,556865,00.html

Pennning protestors who DIDN'T endanger others has nothing to do with a kid who DID.

Go ahead and rant away, but your uninformed emotionalism is not convincing.

[merh]

104. I am not informed and have worked with violent children,

disturbed adults and convicted criminals with violent pasts.

You give me an article as your source of information and claim that I am uninformed, how "intellectual of you". I have done the actual work and have had success in diffusing situations such as this without violence. Try again, this time get a real source.

[mondo joe]

106. Then you should know a 5 year old can be a threat to other kids,

but you don't.

You should further know a disturbed child may need to be removed or restrained.

[merh]

109. Go back and watch the video.

The other children were not at risk.

GO BACK AND WATCH THE VIDEO!

Damn, don't profess to have the answers when your statements clearly reflect that you don't. The same thing over and over and over again.

[mondo joe]

110. There's more than just the video in popular release, including her

throwing things in the classroom. Furthermore it was not the first incident and her own mother previously called the police to deal with her.

This kid was a menace, and her classmates are better off without her.

[merh]

113. There is no justification for violating this child's civil rights.

All they had to do was remove her to the vice-principals office and keep her there until social services or her mother (eventually) came and got her. They did have her in the vice-principals office you know. Once she was removed by trained professionals or her mother, then the school could have suspended her from returning.

End of subject, that would have been that.

[mondo joe]

115. Her civil rights were not violated no matter how much you say it.

Some reading is helpful: http://www.nbc6.net/news/4416060/detail.html
Monday, the school district superintendent said it appeared staff and police were following procedure.

"We called our own police. Our own police couldn't get there, so we called the St. Petersburg police," Pinellas County Superintendent Dr. Clayton Wilcox said. "When the St. Pete Police came in, given their history with this young child, they simply acted as police officers do."

"In hindsight, there are probably a lot of things that we could have done, but I'm pleased generally with the way our people handled it," he said. "She was over a table and screaming and it was horrible, but the fact is, there is other video out there on some of the Web sites that clearly shows that we spent over an hour trying to de-escalate that behavior."
*****************
Pinellas County records show that a St. Petersburg apartment complex where she lived moved to evict her on March 31, about two weeks after the handcuffing that put her daughter's face on TV screens across he world....

John Trevena, who had been serving as the attorney for Akins, said he learned from an executive producer at A Current Affair that the girl and her mother traveled to New York City over the weekend, where they stayed at the show's expense....The show blamed Trevena's release of the video to major media outlets last week, including the St. Petersburg Times . The lawyer said a producer from the show "raged" at him last Friday, saying the release of the video violated an exclusive agreement between Akins and A Current Affair.
Trevena said he had been unaware of any agreement.

[merh]

118. Go buy yourself a pair of handcuffs, the type they used on her,

and have someone put them on your wrists, behind your back and then walk down the street with them.

Better yet, put them on your child and see what reaction you will get.

A five year old cannot be arrested, therefore, you cannot cuff them. Civil rights are precious, when you violate one persons, even a little person's, you violate your own.

I have read all of the write ups and all of the spin the school has put out. They are trying to protect themselves.

[mondo joe]

119. If I ever behave in that way, cuffs will be well deserved

Not everything we dislike is a violation of civil rights.

[merh]

122. You have no clue do you.

Let me type slowly in the hopes that you can understand this.

The police have to have a reason to handcuff someone. They cannot go around handcuffing willy nilly. To put someone in handcuffs is to restrain them and to arrest their movement, thus the term place them under "arrest". Now, since a five (5) year old little girl cannot, by law, violate the law, she cannot be lawfully arrested. If said five year old little girl was attacking someone when the police came in or if she started to attack them, they arguably could have cuffed her. But that was not the case. She was quietly sitting in a chair, at a table when not one but three big, bad adult police officers came for her. They seized her and in effect were the aggressors.

That is a violation of civil rights. You are so big on articles, go read up on unlawful arrests. You will find them, just not many, if any at all, where the police are stupid enough to handcuff a five year old child.

[mondo joe]

125. Please tell me, what do you believe to be the minimum age of criminal

culpability under FL law?

[merh]

127. Your not trying to tell me that it is five are you?

:shrug:

[mondo joe]

129. YOU are the one saying she can't be arrested legally. You tell me: what

is the minimum age of criminal cuplability in FL?

Or are you just making shit up?

[merh]

130. You like articles - here ya go.

http://www.law.fsu.edu/faculty/2005workshops/ward.pdf

No, I am not making this shit up! If the little five year old killed someone, then there is the chance that the court could find she should be held responsible. But it is very doubtful.

I know of no state in this union and that includes Florida, that has found that a child of five years old has the maturity necessary to find that they can be held responsible for their crimes. Did you miss the part about the US Supreme Court ruling that minors cannot be sentenced to death for murder??? That means that they recognize that minors, under 18, cannot be help as responsible as adults. Under 18, well shit, I think 5 is well under 18 and their maturity level and ability to be responsible for their actions severely limits their appreciation of right and wrong relative to committing crimes.

[mondo joe]

132. So you are making shit up. Goodnight. When you come up with a legal

minimum age in FL let me know - for now I'm going to bed.

And yes, minors can't be held responsible in the same way adults are - but they can be held responsible and often are.

What a funny interpretation of law you have.

[merh]

134. Read the article, I didn't make it up.

It clearly sets it out. I have no funny interpretation of the law, you do, it is your way and only your way. Protect me at all costs, protect me and mine and the hell to the consequences.

[mondo joe]

136. The essay you linked to actually says "some states entirely reject formal

age restrictions on prosecution of children" - thus nullifying your own argument that aa 5 year old cannnot be legally arrested!

You have no idea what you're talking about.

[merh]

138. I have every idea as to what I am talking about.

If you can take the time to try to read and comprehend the article, you will see that it is a matter of interpretation, depending on the extreme nature of the crime, and even then, it is not cut and dry, it is complicated from both a MORAL and legal standpoint.

Try again.

I can guarantee you that this five (5) year old did not commit a crime. Her actions may be violent in terms of disruptive and uncontrollable, but not violent to the degree that it is a crime.

Its whether or not she is old enough or mentally developed enough to understand the nature and consequences of her actions. She is not, especially, as you have loved to state through all of your posts justifying the violations of her civil rights and the MISTREATMENT OF THE CHILD, if she is mentally disturbed or imbalanced.

The only one who doesn't know what they are talking about is you.

[mondo joe]

139. Fine: Tell me the minimum age that a child can be legally arrested in FL.

It's simple - you say a 5 year old cannnot be legally arrested. All you need to do is point out the minimum legal age.

[merh]

142. Again, you go read the article.

It clearly explains to you the complexity of the issues.

Maybe the resources provided below will help satisfy your curiosity. Bottom line, it is the nature of the alleged crime that even makes the age an issue. Kicking in the shin and tearing pages does not reach that level, no matter how disruptive it is. This five (5) year old could not be legally arrested because she committed no crime. Felonies of extreme nature, such as murder, aggravated assault and/or rape, if committed by a child of "tender years" would require a hearing to determine whether or not the child could be tried as an adult or adjudicated as an adult. The court has to determine that that the child of "tender years" has the mental capacity or mens rae to understand the nature of the crime and the consquences of their actions.

Enjoy the reading.

"Most states also have statutory exclusion provisions for certain serious offenses which require trials in adult courts; most apply only to minors over a certain age, and some apply only if the minor has a prior record of felony convictions. Four states (Florida, Nevada, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin) have no minimum age for exclusion from juvenile court jurisdiction for certain felony charges; five other states (Georgia, Illinois, Mississippi, New York, and Oklahoma) have set the minimum age as low as 13."
http://www.asfar.org/zine/8th/cover.html

Recently, the U.S. Department of Education identified the fundamental qualities of a safe and responsible school:

* The school has strong leadership, caring faculty, family and community involvement that includes law enforcement officials and representatives of community-based organizations, and student participation in the design of programs and policies.

* The physical environment of the school is safe and schoolwide policies are in place to promote and support responsible behaviors.

* Prevention and intervention programs are sustained, coordinated, and comprehensive.

* Interventions are based on careful assessment of student needs.

* Evidence-based approaches are used.

* Staff are provided with training and support to help them implement programs and approaches.

* Interventions are monitored and evaluations are conducted to ensure that the programs are meeting measurable goals and objectives (Safeguarding Our Children: An Action Guide, American Institute for Research, U.S. Department of Education, 2000).

* Schools that incorporate these characteristics will achieve improved academics, reduced disciplinary referrals and suspensions, greater staff morale, and enhanced safety (Safeguarding Our Children: An Action Guide, American Institute for Research, U.S. Department of Education, 2000).

http://www.ncjrs.org/school_safety/summary.html

http://www.ncjrs.org/html/ojjdp/nationalreport99/toc.html

[mondo joe]

145. Again, please point out the MINIMUM AGE for a legal arrest in FL.

All your tap dancing around an answer will not suffice.

[merh]

146. Not tap dancing, I have provided you with the information.

Go read. :hi:

[mondo joe]

164. No, you didn't provide any mimimum legal age.

And you can't provide it.

[RobinA]

151. What Has Any of This

got to do with handcuffs. The police cuff people, including minors, all the time that they have no intention of arresting. When a kid is freaking to the point where they can't be safely controlled the police will put handcuffs on them. It beats having the kid hurt him/herself, or worse.

[merh]

153. Go watch the video tape.

Damn, how many times must this be repeated.

The child was seated, calmly in a chair when the police came in. Listen to the cop, it was not for restraint or to protect the child, it was to teach the child a lesson, as promised, which is outside of his duties.

To cuff someone that has not committed a crime, that is not posing a threat to the officer or is not under arrest is to violate that person's civil rights. If you think otherwises, then I suggest you go read up on civil rights and illegal arrests.

SHE WAS ONLY FIVE (5) YEARS OLD!! A LITTLE BITTY FIVE (5) YEAR OLD!

:banghead: :banghead::banghead: :banghead::banghead: :banghead::banghead: :banghead::banghead: :banghead::banghead: :banghead::banghead: :banghead::banghead: :banghead::banghead: :banghead::banghead: :banghead::banghead: :banghead:

[RobinA]

149. I'd Be Curious

to know where you worked with disturbed child and adults that calling social services was the answer to this type of problem. I AM social services, and as I mentioned above, if you called my agency from this school about this little girl, we would have told you to call the police.

Also as I mentioned above, if this were an adult and you called crisis mental health (if your locality had it), THEY would have called the police.

[merh]

154. This child is not causing a "health concern".

Damn, I want to know what agency you work for. It appears that some proper training is in order if you can justify the handcuffing of child of "tender years".

[mondo joe]

165. Some people are far too removed from the reality of situations

to know how things work.

[merh]

179. I know you are but what am I.

That is about as mature as all of your responses. The facts have been presented (video clearly reflects no health or physical concerns existed). Law Journal articles discussing the complexities of the issues relative to adjudicating a child of "tender years" as an adult. Actual scenerios that would have worked to have diffuse the situation and have been used successfully in the past.

You are right, some people are too far removed from reality. How ya doing some people! :hi:

[Goblinmonger]

161. Oh Please

I know you work with troubled adults. I get that. But you don't work in a school system where you are responsible for the education of 25+ kids. You CAN'T spend your entire time dealing with the problems of one kid. Sorry, but you can't. You bitch about how the teachers such because they don't do what you do. Well, you go do what we do. How about that. You teach literature to kids while you have one pain in the ass that is out of control and you see what happens. It's nice to bitch from the sidelines. I tell Culpepper that he throws shitty passes all the time, but he is still better than I would be in that situation.

[Goblinmonger]

160. I think the hancuffing was wrong

That being said, i don't see anything in the video that places blame on the school. They could not restrain the child per orders of the mother. Are they supposed to have one person to make sure that child does not hurt herself follow that kid around all day. There is no funding for that. Somebody needed to be called. I would probably have picked social services instead of the police.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

172. OK

So after they offer her crayons and let her continue her tantrums and just ignore her and she realizes her tantrums are no longer effective and she now needs to step it up a notch (and she will escalate it when she realizes she is not the center of attention) and the next day in class she pulls out a pencil and jabs it an inch deep into your childs leg will you still be crying the "poor little baby girl, they should just leave her be she's just scared and for pete's sake she's only 5" tune?

[jmowreader]

182. Five MINUTES or so?

Are you sure you watched the same tape I did? That kid was at that table for less than a minute. (I just rewatched the tape with my timer running: 24 seconds between the time the child walked behind the table to sit down and the time the cops entered the room. For all we know, the child could have seen the cops approach through the office window and decided to sit down: "See, officer? I've been here the whole time."

I didn't see "fear." I saw a child who attempted to dominate the situation. That's what climbing on the table was all about--taller people are dominant, and she used the table to tower over the assistant principal.

Look at her legs in the video when she's sitting in the chair. They're just churning.

I also noticed when the cop spoke to her, he asked, "Do you remember me? I'm the one you told your mom to put handcuffs on you." Defiance? We know the mother called the cops on this kid when the child was three.

There's a lot more here than meets the eye.

[proud2BlibKansan]

52. The cops decided she needed to be restrained

for her own protection. Same reason they handcuff anyone. I think it's remarkable that little girl didn't get hurt.

[merh]

58. The cops violated the laws.

That was not for their own protection - go back and watch it again!
The cop was playing tough guy, he even told her "I told you if you did not behave I would have to use the cuffs" or something to that effect.

I have escorted adults without handcuffs from rooms and homes when the cops couldn't get them to budge. It is not about restraint, it is about so much more.

Go watch it again, maybe you can convince yourself that they were right. Me, I won't be suprised to read the training cop, the male, is fired or at least suspended.

IT IS ILLEGAL TO HANDCUFF SOMEONE THAT IS NOT UNDER ARREST OR POSING AN IMMEDIATE THREAT TO YOUR SAFETY! She IS FIVE (5) YEARS OLD!!!!
She cannot be lawfully arrested.

If they had used a taser to "restrain" her, would you still be comfortable with this? The handcuffs on a five (5) year old are illegal. End of story. No justification!

[proud2BlibKansan]

60. The cop said

'we told your mom we would handcuff you'. He also said 'remember me?' Now how many other 5 year olds in that school have a prior history with cops???

And if the handcuffs were illegal, why weren't the cops charged with a crime? This happened nearly 6 weeks ago.

[merh]

64. I would betcha that they are being investigated.

And that they will be suspended.

Gee, when the cops locked up the protestors in those little pens during the RNC convention, was that legal?

Damn, violating one person's, even one little person's civil rights is a violation of the law and is ILLEGAL!!!

Picture yourself sitting at the table of a restaurant where two days before you had pitched a fit because the waiter stepped on your toe or something. At that time, things may have gotten heated and a cop came in to help settle things down. He didn't take your side, but he didn't arrest you either and he told you "the next time you cause a problem, I will take you in". So, here you are in the same place and that same waiter steps on your toe, you again argue, but it isn't as heated because you had your 2 cups of coffee that morning or you had your lunch or you just weren't as grumpy. You have your moment with the waiter, words are exchanged and the manager calls the cops again. But the moment passes and as far as you are concerned, it's over with. So there you are just sitting there, your bad behavior having passed. Then in comes the same cop and he says, "you again, I told you that if I had to come out, I would cuff you!" and he cuffs you! What the heck did you do wrong? What the heck were you doing wrong?

Try to put yourself in the child's place - empathy - it is a tremendous gift that you can cultivate.

You don't know what percipitated this child's "acting out" and you haven't even bothered to question it throughout any of your posts.
Automatically the child and her mother are the evil/bad people and I find that sad and so very strange.

There is no excuse for the unprofessional manner in which the school handled this and/or the illegal manner in which the cops handled this.

I REPEAT -- SHE IS A FIVE (5) YEAR OLD LITTLE GIRL!!!!!!!!!!!!

[proud2BlibKansan]

68. I work with kids like this one every day

I have great empathy for them. If I didn't, I wouldn't have so many successful years of managing children in both regular and special education classrooms. I can proudly say I have never had to call the cops to calm down a raging child.

But I also understand the effect these rages have on every other kid in that classroom. My empathy goes to them in this situation. I also find nothing unprofessional in the way the school handled this child. My criticism lies with the mother. She dropped the ball big time.

[merh]

73. See my post 55 for one of probably a hundred other options

that were available to protect the other children.

With all due respect, if you find nothing wrong with how this school handled this FIVE (5) YEAR OLD LITTLE GIRL, then I am grateful you do not teach in a school district that any child I know might attend.

It is so easy to blame the mother, you don't even know the mother. You have your suspicions and your made up mind, but you haven't a clue about how she has had to live and what she has had to deal with during her life or the child's.

The school was wrong, the police were wrong.

She is only Five (5) Years OLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[proud2BlibKansan]

84. You are reacting without having all the details

The class WAS removed. Which is by the book. When the child did not calm down in the classroom after her classmates were removed, she was taken to the office. Again, by the book. She was supervised, only touched when she was a danger to herself or others - also by the book. The parent was called.

When Mom refused to come, the asst principal asked the secretary to call for help. The secretary called the cops. One article said the secretary tried to contact district security first but they were unavailable. Another article said the secretary thought the asst principal wanted her to call the cops rather than security.

I know all this because I read every article I could find about this story, going back to March, when this incident occurred. I too was appalled when this story came to my attention. But I have spent nearly 6 weeks gathering information and I am not reacting impulsively here. I have also discussed this incident with numerous other elementary teachers, special ed teachers and administrators. I discussed it today with a school social worker and counselor. I have yet to hear ONE criticize how the school chose to handle this out of control child.

Now since you have lowered yourself to critique MY competence, (which is not at all relevant to this discussion), I am through with this conversation. Perhaps you will take this opportunity to read some articles and get a good handle of the facts before you take on a new opponent.

[merh]

85. It was you that said that the safety of the other children was your

top concern. "But I also understand the effect these rages have on every other kid in that classroom. My empathy goes to them in this situation." It was you that brought up the other children, not me.

I have read the articles and all of the justification that you and the school want to promote.

THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR HANDCUFFING A FIVE (5) YEAR OLD CHILD.

Since you find there is justification, then you have put your reason in question, not me.

SHE IS A FIVE (5) YEAR OLD CHILD.

You never once responded to my inquiry as to "what if mother had been killed or injured in a car accident and could not come for her child?"

Would you still find the behavior of the school and the police excusable?

NO -- It would not have been because it cannot be. IT was wrong.

She was not "OUT OF CONTROL" when the police cuffed her and took her out of the room. She was sitting quietly until the police approached her, threatened her with the handcuffs and became the aggressors.

She was not even "out of control" when she was in the principals office. She was "acting out", but she was not "out of control", there is a big difference.

You want "out of controll", I can give you examples of out of control adults that would make your head spin and force you to run from the room. I can tell you that the use of the proper body language and tone and attitude allowed the "out of control" adult to be calmed and "brough under control" without violence, pepper spray, tasers or handcuffs.

Go read all you want to try to justify the VIOLATIONS OF THIS CHILD'S CIVIL AND HUMAN RIGHTS.

Once you justify the violation of one person's civil rights, you have justified the violation of your own.

It is a tough pill to swallow, but it is the truth!

She is only five (5) years old for God's sake! 5 years old! :cry:

[The Magistrate]

92. Nonesense, Ma'am

Police do not handcuff people to protect them from themselves; police handcuff people to protect themselves from the people they handcuff.

In this case, the policeman who felt he needed to handcuff a five year old made an open and public confession, by that action, that he is a coward and a fool who cannot possibly be relied on in the face of danger or trusted with authority over so much as a bowl of gold-fish.

In a well-run world, he would be seeking employment today, and with scant prospects for finding any....

[ernstbass]

162. Nice way to label a child

"pure evil" - WTF?

[Sapphire Blue]

17. After viewing both videos - classroom & office - my question was

... why wasn't CPS called... or a social worker, school psychologist, or anyone in the mental health / social work field? It didn't seem that the involved school personnel were very effective in defusing the situation (ironic, since the video was supposed to be for some kind of a 'self-improvement' program)... why did they wait so long to call for assistance?

I wonder whether the police department could have referred the school to CPS, or if they were obligated to respond themselves? Seems that they (the police) were drawn into a no-win situation, unless they could have deferred to CPS.

I hope, for the child's sake, counseling is available & pursued... and for the other children's sakes, I hope the teachers receive effective training to help prevent a situation like this from occurring again.

[RobinA]

156. Again....

CPS HAS NO AUTHORITY TO DEAL WITH CRISIS MENTAL HEALTH SITUATIONS. Had the school called CPS, CPS would have told them to call the cops. The police know this. CPS knows this. The school should (and in this case apparently did) know this.

I work for CPS. I am not allowed to handle this sort of situation. I have no training in this sort of situation. If I tried to handle this sort of situation my agency would be liable for anything that went wrong, because I would be working outside of my expertise and authority.

[Sapphire Blue]

178. Can CPS respond with the police?

Does it make a difference whether a CPS worker is an MSW or not? It just seems that an MSW (or psychologist), within the school system or otherwise, would be better able to defuse a situation like this than the police... but that's only my opinion, and I'm not informed of the legalities & liabilities as you would be. Is it known whether the school had a psychologist or security on staff?

I'm personally aware of a situation involving 'X', a young child, in which 'X' repeatedly attempted to leave the school campus... the staff, when unable to dissuade 'X', would call security. Security would then take 'X' to the counselor's office. Police were not called in 'X's' case. As a classroom volunteer, I had occasion to experience 'X's' behavior... I was working with another child just outside the classroom when 'X' slipped out the door, heading for the great beyond. I asked the child that I was working with to inform the teacher, then went outside, asking 'X's' destination. 'X' said 'X' was mad at the teacher, that the teacher did this and that, and 'X' was leaving. Well, I informed 'X' that 'X' wasn't allowed to leave, suggesting we sit down & talk about what was going on. After we talked ('X' talked & I listened) I presented 'X' with two options... going back into the classroom or going to the counselor's office. 'X' chose the classroom, and the rest of that particular day was uneventful.

On first impression, 'X' appeared very sweet, helpful, and co-operative within the classroom... the stereotypical 'teacher's pet'. After some observation, 'X's' need for attention & manipulative behavior became apparent. The parents (a 'well-to-do', 'professional' couple) had been contacted numerous times, and reacted defensively, accusing the teacher and the school of not meeting 'X's' needs (in 'X's' presence), rather than cooperating with the school to work with 'X's' behavior. Since 'X' was aware of the parents' defense of 'X's' behavior rather than addressing it, the behavior continued. The teacher was looking forward to the end of that school year with anticipation.

As the saying goes, it takes a village to raise a child... and when involved members of the community, including (and especially) the parents, fail to do their part, everyone's hands get tied, we see the fallout, and the child loses.

[proud patriot]

19. The police should of 5150'd the child

an uncontrolable child should of been treated as a medical
situation and an ambulance should of been called .

the 5150 takes it out of the parents hands for a 72 hour
evaluation period .

[XemaSab]

25. When someone is 5150'd

it's NOT an ambulance that comes, it's the cops.

They would then take her to the Psych Hospital.

[merh]

24. Now a 7 year old boy is cuffed?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3546766

Damn, this is just ridiculous.

[semass]

181. Another 7 year old boy in my hometown (MA)

http://www.projo.com/digitalbulletin/content/projo-20050429-fallriver.226868bde.html

Fall River police use cuffs to restrain 7-year-old student

03:15 PM EDT on Friday, April 29, 2005

By JACK PERRY
projo.com staff

FALL RIVER, Mass. -- Police cuffed a 7-year-old boy around the wrists and ankles yesterday after he allegedly assaulted three teachers at a local school and punched a police officer in the groin, city police said today.

The boy settled down after being restrained and was released to his mother, who had been contacted by authorities, according to a press release from the police.

The student at Coughlin School will face charges in juvenile court for assaulting the three teachers, two police officers and disturbing the school assembly, according to the police.

In the press release, Fall River Police Chief John M. Souza called the cuffing "an appropriate means to insure the safety of the child and others."

[GumboYaYa]

26. If that was my child, she would be grounded until she turns 18.

Regardless of how the school reacted, I would not permit my child to act that way at school.

The number one predictor of a child's success in school is the number of times the child's parents visit the school, regardless of whether the visits are for confernces, sproting events, or other school events. Too many parents refuse to be proactive in their kids' education. When I see that video, I see a child with no discipline or guidance from the adults in her life. That is the real tragedy here.

[tjdee]

33. This kid was NOT "freaking out", and the only option is NOT physical.

I'm starting to wonder how many of you have seen a kid that is *really* freaking out.

I imagine that this girl *has* freaked out in school, but in the videos, she *is not*.

She is being disobedient.

I'm somewhat surprised by the number of posters willing to call this girl "seriously disturbed" and "out of control" and "freaking out" and "raging".

Are all of you suggesting that there is NO other way to deal with a disobedient child other than "touching" her or calling the police?

The school attempted *NO* conflict resolution, distraction, etc., and the most basic tactic, "Gee, Jaisha, WHY won't you sit down?" If an adult was acting like a jerk, wouldn't your first question be, gee, why did he do that? :eyes:

Which is why I'm sure this mother's suit will be successful--which is a shame, because you are right that she sounds like she has done a crappy job.

[mondo joe]

47. When the kid is throwing things and hitting other people she poses

a danger to herself and other kids.

Her own MOTHER has called the police to deal with her.

Some simple physical restraint like carrying her to another room or just holding her was disallowed.

How long should she be permitted to monopolize the time of the teacher?

[tjdee]

62. Until the situation is taken care of.

Which is why I have also said that she should have been suspended *before* this, if she is that much of a problem. Does that suck for the teacher? Yes, it does.

(This would be another time to mention again that none of the school personnel tried other tactics in this tape besides no no no stop stop stop. They could have calmed her down, or maybe not...of course, we'll never know because they didn't even try.)

My last ditch effort would have been social services maybe, but not law enforcement, who handcuffed and leg shackled a five year old. And when her mother called the police on her, *she* was wrong too.

This is not a 200 pound man, this is a five year old girl.

I'm kind of amazed that so many are willing to condone the complete lack of creativity and problem-solving skills of the teacher/administrators.

[mondo joe]

90. I don't expect teachers to have to be that creative with families like

this one.

They were put in a bad situation and they responded - they have no way to know or control what the officer will do.

I suspect the other kids in the class will be much better off now.

[Pathwalker]

36. I am a parent who signed a "Do Not Touch" order repeatedly,

because I had 3 sons go through the public school systems and they sent that piece of paper home EVERY YEAR - asking whether or not the school STAFF had the authority to use CORPORAL PUNISHMENT on my child, and every single time I refused to give ANYONE ANYWHERE ANYTIME the authority to HIT MY CHILD.
I did so because I was raised with religious violence and I was absolutely determined that my children who grow up without violence against them from anyone. ANYONE.
I had one son suspended for DUCKING a punch thrown at him. The kid who threw the punch broke his hand when it hit the wall. But school policy demanded that both students be suspended. if your a victim of violence in the public school system, you're punished too. I HATE THAT.

OTOH, several years back, a teacher at a local school saw a student walk inot his classroom and proceed to engage in a DOPE DEAL with another student. The teacher grabbed the kid and threw him out of his classroom.
So, of course - they fired the teacher. Twice. Publicly disavowed the teacher's actions - against the dope dealer -er, student. I HATE THAT.

The reasons that students don't respect a teacher's authority anymore is simple - teachers have no authority whatsoever. The laws make that perfectly clear. Many kids today are not "raised" by their parents - they are "housed". The parents gave up their authority over their children, because they're working for the money just to house everyone. So, the teachers are there trying to teach children who are no more civilized than a Bruce Willis in Die Hard 1,2,3 or Stallone in Rambo. These are their role models. So, now society is asking teachers to RAISE the children, but to do so within the strait-jacket of laws that no longer work. Somehow, I don't think that's what any teacher signed up to do, and it is grossly unfair to ask that of them.

So, please understand that not every parent who signs a Do Not Touch order does so because they are lazy, or don't care. I did. I also understood that it was MY duty to raise my children in such a way that they knew better to ever behave in such a way - at least where anyone but me could see. Through my many years of parent-teacher conferences, I never had any complaint from any teacher about them showing them any disrespect; it would have only happened once, had it happened. mostly I heard how bored they were - they knew the subject thoroughly already.

Teachers are in a no-win situation today; they are the low-rung on the school-system ladder, the worst-paid, and the least respected. Our local school systems are top heavy with administration, but they always cut the teachers - never, never the adminstration staff. Teachers have to buy supplies for their students themselves, that's how bad it is. considering how lousy they get paid - I just find that outrageous.

All that being said, I still believe that hand-cuffing AND SHACKLING!!(yes, they shackled her legs too!!) that five year old child is inexcusable. Period.

[slor]

39. I have worked with many troubled children...

and I have seen some real tantrums, and have never seen a need for police involvement. And trust me, I have seen tantrums that made her look like a perfect angel. The police were way out of line!

[Horse with no Name]

49. A voice of reason

Thank you. Your view speaks well for your profession.

[Eloriel]

87. I just want to say that I'm not at all comfortable with

what seems like an antagonistic, firmly entrenched adversarial and rather judgmental tone on yor part. I'm not entirely comfortable with YOUR prescription, based on so little information, for "anger management" classes for a 5 year old. I'm not at all comfortable with your knee-jerk anti-mom attitude, including your automatic assumption that she has been an insufficient enough parent to be under CPS supervision. (No stereotypes there! I can't help but wonder if the same assumptions would have been made for a white mother and her child?)

YOU MAY BE RIGHT ABOUT ALL OF IT. My concern is that you're an outsider to this story and this process and these people, and yet you have all the answers, and few of them seem particularly humane, compassionate or likely to foster healing and understanding to me.

Come to think of it, I'm not entirely comfortable that you're teaching "at risk" kids. I hope you do a better job than you've been able to convey here.

OR, if not, if it's made you this hardened and jaded, perhaps it's time to consider another career. Might be the best thing for both the kids and yourself.

[chookie]

131. Pot, meet Kettle

Okay -- so on one hand "what seems like an antagonistic, firmly entrenched adversarial and rather judgmental tone on yor part. I'm not entirely comfortable with YOUR prescription, based on so little information" and "My concern is that you're an outsider to this story and this process and these people, and yet you have all the answers, and few of them seem particularly humane, compassionate or likely to foster healing and understanding to me."

but on the other hand you are confident in suggesting "perhaps it's time to consider another career. Might be the best thing for both the kids and yourself."

[enigmatic]

116. Great post, and thank you. n/m

[okieinpain]

121. well finally a plan that I can agree with. excellent. way better than

calling the cops.

[Nigel_Tufnel]

140. the lack of understanding on these threads is astounding

those of you who are so quick to call the child evil (seen too many Omen movies, perhaps) or to criticize her mother, might want to familiarize yourselves with the symptoms of autism. it sounds like the child might have asperger's syndrome. she may need help to regulate her behavior, and there is no blame to be assigned, except to blame the mercury in vaccines and in the air, toxins in food, lack of resources to the schools, etc.

i feel sorry for a child with behavior problems who has a teacher who just wants to blame her parents. maybe you should learn more about autism.

flame away.

[merh]

144. No flames from me.

I thank you for such a wise and caring post.

The people who expect a perfect child in a perfect society best get used to the fact that situations like this may well continue to escalate given our economy and the budget cuts to education and social services.

Sadly, the child is an evil criminal to most and not the victim of society who more likely than not has health issues which make it impossible for her to understand the nature of her actions, let alone control them.

May I Welcome you to DU! :hi:

Thank you for sharing your insights. :-)

[Nigel_Tufnel]

171. thanks for the nice welcome....

i lurk a lot but rarely post. i guess i'm just upset to see how many DUers are big Dobson fans.

as a society, we have to learn about dealing with these behavioral difficulties in a constructive way. i have been doing a lot of reading about autism recently, especially asperger's. a person with this type of autism is usually very smart, yet doesn't perceive the world in the same way as most. they are easily frustrated, unable to understand and use society's normal outlets for frustrations, and lose control.

they have to be instructed in great detail about what is happening to them, how to take other people's feelings into consideration, and what to do instead of coming apart at the seams. since they are smart, it usually doesn't take much time before they start to understand what is expected of them, and do much better.

one source (i can't find it again to reference it, i'm sorry) said that 1 of 200 children today have some sort of neurological difficulty. if this is true, teachers and parents need to learn to recognize the symptoms as early as possible. intervention at very early ages can help these children to integrate into society with a great deal of success and a minimum of effort.

i know that teachers are overworked and underpaid, and that sometimes help is not available easily. i think it is important for them to be aware of this type of difference, because these kids are much easier to deal with if you have some knowledge of their difference in brain functioning.

just my 2 cents....

[merh]

173. Your 2 cents worth is very precious.

Again, I thank you. Best wishes to you and yours.

:hi:

[Bo]

143. Very good post...I agree with you totally

CPS should have been called not the police. The parent is obviously an idiot.

[liberalitch]

152. We're only allowed to say that about white parents now

After Bill Cosby, black parents can do no wrong

[merh]

158. Seems to me you might have some issues.

:freak:

I can't put my finger on it, but it is just some of things you write :scared: And you say you work in the field :scared:

[H2O Man]

159. "some"

Sister Merh, I do believe we called that "understatement" when I was in school!

[merh]

163. So do you think we can find an island where we can start our own

civilization, free from these "liberals". They scare the hell out of me. Thank god they weren't part of the civil rights efforts, we would still have segregated water fountains, lunch counters, classrooms, etc, because, after all, they did serve a purpose and get the job done with little disruption. :cry:

[H2O Man]

168. It's strange.

When I was young, I learned from the Haudenosaunee, or Six Nations Iroquois Confederacy, the social decay that had resulted from the fall of the Ohio River Valley Empire(s) -- Adena, Hopewellian -- had reached people far away. These were the tribal peoples who had trade associations with the city/state, or empire. It started between "tribes." But it was also conflicts in the clans, or extended families. And it was tension between men and women: agriculture had resulted in women replacing men as the primary suppliers of food. The social upheaval included blood fueds, and terrible violence.

When the prophet we know as the Peace Maker came, along with the actual historical figure Hianawetha, he taught The Power Of the Good Mind as an avenue to The Great Peace. It is a fascinating topic. One thing is important for this discussion: the Iroquois outlawed the hitting of children. They did it because they knew it was part of the cycle of violence and blood fueds.

In 1798, the prophet we know as Handsome Lake brought his vision. Part of it dealt with his warnings about environmental terrors. But part had to do with the new white empire, and he had specific teachings about the role that confused adults who justified hitting children. Today we see that it isn't one color or one ethnic group or race that suffers from the diseased mind. The attitude on here that has made you feel physically ill to read is that confusion of the societies' diseased mind. Hold strong.

[merh]

170. I will hold strong because of people like you.

You help me remain centered. I would think I had lost my mind to be posting on a liberal, progressive website wherein everyone believes the abuse of a 5 year old is acceptable.

I swear, if I could, I would put plasticuffs on each and everyone of them and walk them down the street.

Please pmail with a list of books or articles that I can read about the prophets you mentioned in your post. If I weren't of Polish descent, I would swear that I was a lost member of one of the tribes.

:hug: Thank you :hug:

[noiretextatique]

169. no shit...spare me from this reverse pc crap

as if it's taboo to be an overt racist in america...

[noiretextatique]

167. let's talk about whether or not this action would have been taken

against a 5 year old white kid, including shackling her feet. some idiot on another thread actually said the police did it to protect themselves...from a five year old child.
black parents are america's and bill cosby's favorite scapegoat, and of course YOU are allowed to continue with blaming them.

[tblue37]

177. I think a white kid might have been treated this way, too,

if she happened to be poor. I don't think a wealthy kid would be treated this way, no matter what her color, and I suspect a comfortably middle-class white kid would not, but a comfortably middle-class Black kid probably would.

The child's behavior was completely unacceptable, and the parent did tie the teachers' and administrators' hands, though there might well be a history that made her feel she had to do so.

The adults were "following procedure" directly from a handbook. They were (understandably) covering their asses by adhering strictly to procedure. But the procedure, however lauded it might be by some "experts," is simply not an effective procedure.

The child's behavior did not seem autistic. Nor did it seem that of a child with Asperger's. She was actually controlled and deliberate in her behavior--systematic, even. I would guess her to be very smart, and very, very frustrated. She obviously needs help--and so does her mother, if she had to call the cops on her own daughter when the kid was just three years old. Just the fact that she did call the cops suggests her lack of imagination in dealing with her kids.

There is plenty of blame to go around. More than enough, really. And the little girl, who is admittedly as cute as a button, is also obviously a royal pain in the patootie. But she probably wasn't born that way. Some kids have neurological disorders from birth that make such behavior likely, but this one is probably a normal child. It took adults a while to screw her up to this degree, and the adult who is most likely to have been the major screwing-up influence is the mother. (None of the articles refer to a father, so it seems the mom is on her own raising these kids.)

But I see it all the time these days. An awful lot of adults have no clue about how to socialize children. I mean absolutely no clue. The mother is probably an ineffectual parent, but that doesn't mean she doesn't mean well or doesn't try (though that also could be the case). But knowing how to socialize kids and modify unwanted behavior is a learned skill, and one best learned through successful modeling and hands-on experience.

In our society, few people have any access either to decent information about parenting or to useful parenting models or assistants. They live in isolated nuclear family units, and usually there are no grandmothers, aunts, or other older women with child-rearing experience around to help them learn and to add their influence to the child while the mother is learning and maybe screwing up. Also, a lot of young people in our society have not grown up babysitting younger siblings and cousins as was once the case.

And then on top of that, mothers of very young kids are in the workforce, so their kids are often being raised by inadequate babysitters.

That child's behavior, the teachers' and administrators' ineffectuality, the cops' boneheaded move, and the mother's parenting problems are all symptoms of a much wider social malaise. This is just the tip of the iceberg. Unsocialized children and uncooperative, combative (and often litigious) parents are a major problem for schools, and the impossible conditions that teachers work under are also a big problem.

Some teachers are poorly trained, and some are dumb and mean--just as in any profession. But considering the crappy conditions and lousy pay, most people who go into teaching do so because they really like kids and really want to work with them and help them. One reason so many burn out so fast is that although they would be willing to put up with bad pay and bad working conditions, they can't deal with the frustration of being unable to really teach kids or to really help those that need help. The conditions they work under block their best attempts.

[noiretextatique]

180. common sense gets lost

when folks are just trying to cover their asses. yeah and poor white kid probably would have been treated the same way, however, i know for a fact that black kids are still labelled and steered into special ed, for example, in disproportionately high numbers. clearly this child needs help, not handcuffs and shackles, especially considered that she is only 5 years old. the adults..all of them...were ALL idiots in this sitaution. i know teachers (and cops) get a lot of shit dumped on them that is not their's to deal with, but as someone else here mentioned, this incident reveals more about how our society treats those with (likely) emotional and mental problems than anything else. in the regard, the races are more equal...all mentally/emotionally ill people get treated like criminals.

[barb162]

176. I have to hand it to you...how do you keep your sanity

A very dedicated friend of mine taught "special ed" for 2 yrs. until she just got sick of kids throwing things, like chairs, books,etc., at her.

PS: I just started a new thread in gen. discussion. on the subject where the experts weigh in on the "tantrum" from a St. Peterburg Times article