I think Will Pitt and Howard Dean agree a lot about getting out of Iraq.

[madfloridian]

I believe Howard Dean and Will Pitt agree on a lot of things about getting
out of Iraq. Both are taking responsible approaches to this issue. I
have often said my opinion wavers day to day on this issue. I am glad to
see some are sort of on the same page. Most days I feel we should leave, but we have destroyed their infrastructure badly. I think of how we felt after 3 hurricane eyes hit us...lost, devastated, no infrastructure as we knew it. Then I rethink.

Here is something Howard Dean said in 2003 about getting out of Iraq. His words were almost two years ago, so some things are different. Let's concentrate on the similar tones of responsibility.

Agree or disagree, but be honest!
This is a man speaking from conscience.

http://www.blogforamerica.com/archives/001116.html

Wednesday, August 20, 2003
"We Cannot Afford to Fail"
BURLINGTON--Governor Howard Dean issued this statement on Iraq:

"Since last April, I have been calling on President Bush to internationalize
the reconstruction effort in Iraq. I repeat that call today.

"Expert after expert has returned from Iraq stating that the window of
opportunity is closing faster than anyone expected and that our chance to
successfully stabilize and rebuild the country is quickly passing. Despite
this, the Bush Administration refuses to seek a UN mandate so that our
historic allies and friends can join us in this effort and speed up the
reconstruction process.

"I call on the Bush Administration to take the following steps to encourage
our proven allies and friends, including France, Germany, India, and Turkey
to join us in Iraq and to accelerate the reconstruction process. We must:

* Work with the UN to build the largest coalition possible to help us
succeed in Iraq;
* Make clear our intention to share decision-making on security and
reconstruction issues in Iraq with those countries and international
institutions that join the international coalition;

* Prioritize restoring law and order and the resumption of electricity,
water, and sanitation services -- they are fundamental to success in all
other areas;

* Focus on developing Iraqi capacity to undertake key functions as soon as
possible;

* Decentralize the operations of the Coalition Authority and make money more
forthcoming and flexible;

* Employ the sizable number of available Iraqis with short term public works
projects and get state-run enterprises up and running, even if they must be
downsized and privatized later;

* Push for UN oversight of the successor to the Oil for Food program;

* Award reconstruction contracts to the best US or foreign bidder in a
transparent and open process.

"Yesterday's bombing of the UN headquarters in Iraq appears to have been an
effort to dissuade other members of the international community from
assisting us. It is vital to our chances of success that the Bush
Administration redouble its efforts to internationalize the military and
civilian presence and to speed up the stabilization and rebuilding process.
We cannot afford to fail."
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

And here is a post from Will Pitt from Sunday. Very responsible ideas, thinking of the Iraqis and that we not leave them in the devastation we caused.
"Some ideas:

* End the Houston-based contracting of work in Iraq and open the doors to Iraqi companies and workers. The believers in privatization here should practice what they preach and allow Iraqis to make money off the work and repairs needing to be done. As funds flow into the Iraqi economy, burgeoning and reconstituted private companies can take it upon themselves to make sure the lights work, the roads are paved, the water is running, and the trash is picked up. Once upon a time, Iraq was the most modern and industrialized nation in that region, filled with highly educated workers who know how to run a country. The Iraqi people must be allowed to run their country once again, and must be paid well for their work by Iraqi employers not beholden to profit margins in the United States.

* Arrange for the creation of a base of operations outside of Iraq where an Iraqi National Guard and police force can be trained to take over the security of their country. The old Christian canon states that whenever two or three people are gathered together to pray, Jesus is with them. In Iraq, whenever two or three people are gathered together to sign up for the army or the police, a suicide bomber is there with them to deal death. Establishing a place away from the violence where Iraqis can be prepared and armed for the work needed to gain control of the country will ultimately allow American forces to back away from policing the country, something that has been the chief aggravating factor among that populace. Doing this away from the violence will allow Iraqis to sign up for this work without fear of being blown sideways out a recruiting station.

* Until the infrastructure is repaired and security forces are assembled, steps must be taken to achieve stability without an American face on the action. Work in good faith with both the United Nations and the Arab League to assemble a large security force comprised of people from the region. Care must be taken to avoid any pitfalls regarding potential ethnic and religious friction between the Iraqi people and these Arab security forces, but this can be managed. Once Iraqi infrastructure is restored and a security and police force is in place, the Arab forces can begin a phased withdrawal. Meanwhile, American forces can be removed en masse.

* Practice what has been preached about bringing democracy to that nation. Democracy is not the installation of some bastardized Vichy government managed by remote control from Washington. The Iraqi people will never accept such a government, and the violence and chaos will never end. Provide security by way of the aforementioned steps and let the people decide how their country will be governed. The recent farce of an election did not achieve this; almost all of the candidates were anonymous because they feared assassination, and large swaths of the populace did not participate because they saw it as the sham it was. Let the government be formed as it will, and prepare for the diplomatic ramifications.

* A vital element to the process will be the establishment of a set timetable for withdrawal. Timetables are dangerous; if they are not met, rage is the inevitable result. Yet the changes required of our status in Iraq need date markers and deadlines to push the process along, and the Iraqi people need to know exactly when their country will be their own again."

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/031405Z.shtml

[Walt Starr]

1. We certainly can't walk out overnight

unless, of course, we stay on our present course which may result in a vietnamlike exit a few years down the road.

[Itsthetruth]

7. We Should "Cut And Run" From Iraq!

""We certainly can't walk out overnight"

That's true. It would take about 60 days, not walking, but using planes, busses and boats to withdraw from the region.

If U.S. troops could walk or even run out overnight from Iraq I would favor that.

[Walt Starr]

9. What you suggest is what I consider "walking out overnight"

Sorry, 60 days would be "walking out overnight".

We broke it. We have to fix it. That cannot be accomplished within sixty days.

And it sure as hell won't be accomplished in the next 3.5 years.

[Itsthetruth]

15. You Don't Own Iraq!

"We broke it. We have to fix it."

What arrogance! You don't own Iraq. It's not your nation. If you want to help them "fix" their nation pull out the troops and send them money!

I'm sure the Iraqi people can do just fine without anymore "help" from the Bush government.

[shance]

16. Thank you ITT. We definitely do not own Iraq , but the Administration

has illegally invaded it and has done so in this country's name.

We have, or many in our governing bodies have been accomplices in giving a blank check to allow individuals to essentially privatize that country for the Administration's own gain.

This Administration does not own Iraq. This Administration does not own their oil. It is unbelievable the amount of murders, death, ruination of families, hopes, laughter, pets and spirits for a crude, smelly substance called oil.

So what do we do to undo what we have done wrong? I could agree with fixing it, however, part of that means GIVING IRAQ THEIR INFRASTRUCTURE BACK.

It does not belong to this Administration. They've wreaked enough havoc on Iraq, Afghanistan and our country and our lives as Americans.

[Walt Starr]

18. If we walk out now, things will get EVEN WORSE

We broke it. We have to fix it. It's a moral imperative.

How do we fix it? We get Arab nations on board to take over the security via a coalition. As we move these nations of the region in, we can move out.

That will take a hell of a lot longer than your 60 days.

What you suggest is not only unwise, it's downright ignorant.

[Zorra]

25. Like we did in Vietnam, only without waiting 10 years to do it. n/t

[WilliamPitt]

2. I think you are right

which is why I am glad he made that statement last week about the need to stay in. We are a hell of a lot closer on the issue than we are far apart, and if the Chairman can be convinced to open a public dialogue (as a first step) towards withdrawal, we will all be the better for it. Given his past statements, he's a perfect choice to lead that conversation.

Thanks for the post, MF. :toast:

By the way, here's the link to the PDA letter and petition on the matter:

http://www.pdamerica.org/articles/news/iraq-exit-action.php

[madfloridian]

4. You are welcome. This is about more than us.

:hi:

[Zynx]

3. We should be out ASAP - but that's not immediately

An extremely short withdrawl operation would be a fiasco on a number of levels.

[Walt Starr]

6. An extremely short withdrawal operation is precisely where we are headed

so long as the administration keeps its collective heads up its collective arses, eventually you'll have an Arab coalition taking over the country and driving us out, which will result in a retreat from teh embassy not unlike Vietnam.

The problem is, we are so over extended militarily in the world that I can see an Iran stepping in and crossing the border, after which all hell breaks loose.

We need sane leadership running things, which is to say, we've got about 3.5 years before we can hope for a wise resolution.

[LittleClarkie]

22. That would damn well figure

Since many of the same folks in the Ford admin during the Saigon pullout are also in the Bush admin. I remember reading something in the Rolling Stone that it was, if I recall correctly, Cheney and Rummy who encouraged Ford to get out of Vietnam in that way.

I've been expecting another Saigon clusterfuck pullout for a while now.

[xultar]

5. I agree as well. We can't just pack it up and run. We do owe the

Iraqi people some security, stability, an infrastructure, and an economy.

I would be upset if we just left them with nothing and a civil war.
People are less likely to fight one another if they have jobs, running water, and security.

[Itsthetruth]

13. Don't Dictate To Iraqi's What Kind Of Government They Must Have

"We do owe the Iraqi people some security, stability, an infrastructure, and an economy."

"We" owe the Iraqi people only one thing. Respect and recognition of their right to self-determination and independence.

Most Iraqi's want an end to the occupation and foreign domination of their nation. They don't care about what kind of regime is acceptable to you, liberal or otherwise. Your opinion on what kind of government they should have, backed up by an occupation, has no standing among the Iraqi people. You are not an Iraqi citizen. Therefore you have no business meddling in their internal affairs and have no right to dictate to the Iraqi people what kind of government or economy they should have. Respect their rights. Don't write and act like an old fashioned colonialist who knows what's best for them.

[xultar]

19. I think we agree on the same thing. I'm not saing we tell them

how to govern but we do owe them an infrastructure, water, sewage, electricity. since we bombed it.

We owe them an economy, that is helping them to start their own business not brining in our own with white folks running it. They should sell their own oil not us selling it for them and keeping the money.

We do owe them stability, with their neighbors.

We owe them security. That is we need to put their army and police force back.

I didn't say anything about occupation. I didn't say anything about domination of their nation. :shrug:

[LittleClarkie]

23. Not everyone agrees with Powell but I keep thinking about the pottery barn

It seems like we would be saying "Sorry we broke your country. See ya. (zip)."

The problem is Haliburton needs to get it's meathooks out of the way, and let the Iraqi contractors in.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

8. Out Now!! Iraq belongs to the Iraqis.

Sure, they might make a mess of it. But, we aren't "helping" them by having our military there shooting people.

Many people seem to forget that the United States went through a long and very bloody birth. It wasn't all Thomas Jefferson and George Washington making memorable speeches. There were insurrections, slavery, the genocide against the Indians, and the mostly costly war in our history, the civil war, before we became a nation.

Let the Iraqis decide who will govern them, who to ask aid from, what they want for their country.

It's called democracy at it's most basic. What we're doing there now is called imperialism.

[patrice]

10. IMO, one thing, amongst several, that Howard Dean is doing

is actively preparing for when * calls it a victory and "brings" the troops home, while keeping them there to use the built up bases and fortifications for the pipeline that we are mortgaging our children's futures for here.

Our lives are oil futures. Real patriots shop. (sarcasm)

[patrice]

12. Sorry again, I have a new system. It's different. My old computer

never did that. Is it something to do with the keyboard and its macro keys?

[patrice]

11. IMO, one thing, amongst several, that Howard Dean is doing

is actively preparing for when * calls it a victory and "brings" the troops home, while keeping them there to use the built up bases and fortifications for the pipeline that we are mortgaging our children's futures for there. So they are going to come home and stay at the same time. IMO, Dean is positioning himself for that eventuality.

Our lives are oil futures. Real patriots shop. (sarcasm)

[mitchtv]

14. all American contractors should be withdrawn immediately

rebuilding should be given to Iraqis, paid for by us.All Iraqis should be given a monthly reparation check to help pull themselves up for at least 2 years. Military withdrawal should begin immediately and much eq left to the local security forces>When? sooner rather than later all out in two years

[Gold Metal Flake]

17. Many Democrats must be elected before that could happen.

I agree that all rebuilding should be turned over to Iraqis, and I believe an international group of engineers could be collected to consult to get things going. But, as we know, the constant cycle of destruction and rebuilding by US forces and US-based corporate entities is a persistant criminal enterprise, and Bushco is providing the protection and PR for it.

Iraqis will not have control over their own country as long as republicans control the Executive branch. And we are a long way away from having a chance to replace them conventionally.

[madfloridian]

20. A good statement on the eve of the war...warns of the aftermath.

He has always said we should look to what happened after we invaded.

http://www.blogforamerica.com/archives/000395.html

Tuesday, March 18, 2003
Howard Dean's statement on
Howard Dean's statement on the President's decision to send U.S. military troops into war against Iraq:

"Tonight, for better or worse, America is at war. Tonight, every American, regardless of party, devoutly supports the safety and success of our men and women in the field. Those of us who, over the past 6 months, have expressed deep concerns about this President's management of the crisis, mistreatment of our allies and misconstruction of international law, have never been in doubt about the evil of Saddam Hussein or the necessity of removing his weapons of mass destruction.

Those Americans who opposed our going to war with Iraq, who wanted the United Nations to remove those weapons without war, need not apologize for giving voice to their conscience, last year, this year or next year. In a country devoted to the freedom of debate and dissent, it is every citizen's patriotic duty to speak out, even as we wish our troops well and pray for their safe return. Congressman Abraham Lincoln did this in criticizing the Mexican War of 1846, as did Senator Robert F. Kennedy in calling the war in Vietnam 'unsuitable, immoral and intolerable.'

This is not Iraq, where doubters and dissenters are punished or silenced --this is the United States of America. We need to support our young people as they are sent to war by the President, and I have no doubt that American military power will prevail. But to ensure that our post-war policies are constructive and humane, based on enduring principles of peace and justice, concerned Americans should continue to speak out; and I intend to do so."

Posted by Zephyr Teachout at 11:23 AM

[madfloridian]

21. One last kick for partial agreement.

:kick:

[jmatthan]

24. Grossly arrogant

Implies that Iraqis needs to be taught how to take charge of their own affairs!

US cannot manage a simple Presidential election in their own country and they want to teach Iraqis what they have known for hundreds of years!!

Americans cannot manage the fascism now in place in their country and they want to teach "democracy" and institutional management to an educated country.

Americans have caused death, destruction and chaos in Iraq and now want to teach Iraqis to create order because of their mismanagement!!

Americans should put their tail between their legs and quit Iraq - they lost the war!!

Jacob Matthan
http://jmpolitics.blogspot.com

[madfloridian]

27. No, most on this forum are not arrogant.

I spare no one the blame. Blair was a puppet to Bush. However, I remember after the 3 hurricane eyes hit us. I felt like I had never felt....we had running water still but that was all.

There was no emergency service in most areas. If my husband had had a heart attack, we would not have been able to do a thing for several days. It would have taken a helicopter in some areas. In all effects, for days there was no power, no radio communication because all our radio here is right wing and carries only brief news. We were through no fault of our own helpless for days. I had to call my kids in other states to find out what was going on with the other hurricanes and in the world.

There was no one to call on. We had very little infrastructure for a while.

We have done that to the Iraqis. Staying long enough...if it is even possible now....to at least give them power and water would be human.

I am sorry you think all of us are arrogant. I think you are wrong. I think your assessment is wrong. The man in the white house is arrogant and uncaring. Howard Dean is not, Will Pitt is not. Those statements are not statements of arrogant people.

I find your post very judgemental and it paints us all the same. We are not the same at all.

[DulceDecorum]

26. The US should leave Iraq immediately: RIGHT NOW

The story of Iraqi -US relations is a tragedy similar to another drama which took place in Greenwich Village some years ago.

Joel Steinberg -- played by the Republicans
Hedda Nussbaum -- played by the Democrats.
Lisa -- the people of Iraq.

While Nussbaum attempted to revive Lisa, defendant continued dressing. Defendant told Nussbaum to let her sleep, promised to awaken the child upon his return, and then left for dinner. Nussbaum did not seek medical care for Lisa because she believed defendant had supernatural healing powers, and felt that calling for assistance would be considered a sign of disloyalty.
Defendant returned about three hours later, at 10:00 p.m., retrieved a file relating to his oil well investments, and left again. When he came back a few minutes later, Nussbaum urged him to revive the still-unconscious child. Defendant declined-- explaining that they "ha(d) to be relating when she wakes up"-- and he instead freebased cocaine for the next several hours. Finally, at 4:00 a.m., after Nussbaum's repeated urgings, defendant carried Lisa from the bathroom floor to the bedroom, where her breathing seemed to sound better. Defendant rested his arm on Lisa, and continued talking to Nussbaum.
At 6:00 a.m., when Nussbaum left the room, defendant called out that Lisa had stopped breathing. Defendant initially rejected Nussbaum's offer to call 911, but finally acceded when his attempts to resuscitate the child failed. Police and paramedics arrived shortly after being summoned, administered oxygen, and rushed Lisa to the hospital.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/nyctap/I92_0125.htm

Take that child to the hospital NOW.
And stop this "relating when she wakes up" crap.

The people of Iraq do NOT belong to the US.
They did not come out of a Pottery Barn slave-mart.
The US attacked Iraq for no good reason
and the US should stop killing the Iraqi people.
NOW.