Reaction to tantrum open to interpretation

[barb162]

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/04/28/Floridian/Reaction_to_tantrum_o.shtml

ST. PETERSBURG - What's a school to do when a 5-year-old girl punches the assistant principal, rips papers off a bulletin board and climbs atop a table?

In the days since a Largo attorney released footage of three police officers handcuffing a 40-pound Fairmount Park Elementary kindergartener, education officials have praised the way administrators tried to defuse the situation without touching.

snip


Nothing about the girl's tantrum was ordinary, psychologists said.

"A normal tantrum would be verbal refusal to obey, to cry or scream and to do that for a brief period of time, maybe five or 10 minutes," said Patricia J. Shiflett, a St. Petersburg clinical psychologist with 20 years' experience.

snip
Rodney Thrash can be reached at 727 893-8352 or [e-mail]

[Kerrytravelers]

1. I work with kids where stuff like this happends all the time.

We manage not to have the cops put handcuffs on our kids. It's tough though, especially if they aren't in Special Day classrooms where this behavior is more typical.

I've heard about this, but I haven't heard all the details. I'd like to know if this was the first time, if meds threw her little system out of balance, if other children were hurt.

However, from my limited knowledge, I don't see the need for handcuffs.

[barb162]

2. can you touch the kids or

put them in therapeutic holds

[Goblinmonger]

4. Not this kid

Her mother had a "no touch" order for the district. That's my understanding anyway (which is why you hear the vice-principal saying she isn't touching the girl on the tape).

[Kerrytravelers]

5. We have to hold the kids, at some point.

It's much easier to remove the other students, in my opinion.

Was the no-holding part of her IEP (Individualized Education Plan)? I'm surprised more of the specific instructions weren't included there. However, if there was a no-holding rule, it seems they have traveled this path before.

As a parent, when you have a child who clearly has exceptional needs, you must be willing to work with the teachers. If holding is necessary, it's necessary. The school can also say- if we can not restrain for safety, she can not come here.

It gets really legalistic and ugle, and the laws change from sate to state, county to county.

WHen I say holding and restraining, I'm not talking about a ton of adults doing a football pile-up, but one adult holding in a specified restraining hold from behind that keeps the child from hurting themselves and others. It must be a pre-approved hold per the IEP.

If someone here is an educational advocate, especially from FL, tell us what else we should know.

[barb162]

7. that's what I mean by therapeutic hold and that's what they use in

locked wards at a lot of hospitals

[barb162]

6. that's my understanding too

I think if the school staff could have held her, once it became very clear this child would not stop, the cops wouldn't have been called. Or put her in a "rubber room" where she couldn't hurt others until the mom could pick her up.

[The Witch]

8. Apparently it was not the first time she's had contact w/police

I've heard about this, but I haven't heard all the details. I'd like to know if this was the first time...

The video of this incident was circulating and I (like an idiot) watched it. When the police entered the room, they said, "Do you remember me? Do you remember we said we'd have to put the handcuffs on you?" or something to that effect. So it was not the first time.

[barb162]

14. the mother called the cops on the kid when the kid was 3 yrs. old

[Spinzonner]

3. It's barbaric

Don't they make child-sized Straight Jackets ?

[The Witch]

9. What do you mean by that comment?

Please explain so I don't misunderstand you.

[Spinzonner]

11. I fear my sarcasm is becoming too subtle

[barb162]

12. too subtle? I was thinking more along the lines of child-sized

boxing gloves the way this child was swinging her fists, but give a punching bag to her instead of teachers and principals.

[LdyGuique]

10. It's another case of schools literally having their hands tied --

If they cannot restrain a misbehaving child, cannot locate the parent, and cannot incarcerate a child in a small padded room -- calling 911 is about their only option and then eject the child from the school permanently.

The entire issue of autism, increasing bipolar cases, and various other developmentally disabled children verus the plan to mainstream these children is at odds with the realities of working with these children and the lack of funding to provide constraining environments for their unique outbursts.

[barb162]

13. good point

[LdyGuique]

15. As a followup, it's sad when they have to run a video camera

to protect themselves from lawsuits or unwarranted complaints, too

[barb162]

16. yes

I have heard so many teachers complaining about this and I think they are right. The other thing I wanted to mention is I am glad this article came out but the problem I have with it is that the average teacher has a bachelor's or master's in ed and the people reviewing it here are PhDs in psych and ed and of course are much more experienced and have the hindsight aspect going for them. I think a fair number of people were expecting the teacher to react to the child in the story like they were full- fledged psych PhDs. But I wonder what the full-fledged psych PhD would do if they had a classroom full of kids in the exact same situation. They are accustomed to dealing with people only one on one or in small groups. I am glad they mentioned this was not some normal tantrum; I never thought it was.

[DearAbby]

17. Would they have handcuffed the child ...if the child were white?

Makes you wonder...at least the thought passed through my mind. Would they have treated the situation the same had the child been white?

[barb162]

21. One of the cops was black, the asst. principal was black...

so I am not seeing any racial overtones in it. Although I don't condone handcuffing kids, if it were the exact same situation, I would then hope they would treat the white kid exactly the same. I think (maybe I am not) I am pretty good about seeing racism and sexism. Like when I see a story about, let's say, "a 35 year old mother" did you ever notice they never say "a 35 year old father." No, they will say "a 35 year old man." When I was watching the video of the incident I never even noticed the asst. principal was black as I was just watching the action and interaction; I was just watching what she was saying and doing and paying no attention to skin color. Until 2 days later when someone pointed it out, I didn't know she was black.

[roguevalley]

18. these kids are being mainstreamed into the regular ed classroom

and everyone is paying for it, including the other kids who don't get an education because their teacher is dealing with these dingbats. It makes kids with problems look bad to normal kids when they are with them, doing this stuff. Putting kids like this in a regular classroom because you don't want to damage their 'self esteem' by 'labeling them' is crap. Do you think anyone is EVER going to believe that kid is normal now? Not on your life. The kids will remember her as a nut forever. The mom needs to be investigated about her ability to raise this kid and not tie the hands of the school and threaten them when they are stuck with her tantrums. Some of the principals up here expell kids like this from their schools. Maybe they need to do that down there so this mom can get a clue.

RV, retired after 27 mostly great years in k-6

[barb162]

22. there are two bipolar, ADD kids a few doors down

and they are in regular classes. Each child has a full-time one-on-one teacher asst. and even then the parent is called fairly often to pick the kids up. I do know these two kids are called crazy by the neighbor kids. I don't know how much disruption they actually cause. Ummm, Our school taxes are incredibly high here.

Let me ask you this, is it your experience that separate ed. is just as effective in kids learning?

[bpilgrim]

19. they keep saying they didn't touch the child, but they did, repeatedly

what i saw was a hovering automaton waiting to swoop in at any violation to enforce the rules.

no attempt at real communication or distraction just reactionary.

and when they chained her she was sitting calmly in compliance... i wonder what that teaches the child?

should have taken her to the gym and let her kick a ball around till her mom came instead of bringing her into a foreboding office with more opportunity for the upset child to make a mess.

yeah, she was throwing punches, too :crazy:

it is barbaric.

peace

[justjones]

20. I see plenty of little kids.....

kicking and slapping their parents and tearing up things on those so-called reality Nanny tv shows. If they act this way with their parents, who knows how they act with teachers and administrators, yet I don't see their tantrums being labeled as "out of the ordinary." Instead, the adults attempt to deal with the behavioral problems in a constructive manner.

What's the difference?

[barb162]

23. Do you think this behavior is becoming more common or just

more publicized. By the way, I have never seen one of these shows.

[justjones]

24. Probably more publicized....

although I'm not sure if that is the right question to ask.

I'm not a fan of these so-called "reality" tv shows, especially because they are anything but, however, when I watched the little girl's behavior in Florida, it didn't strike me as anything I haven't seen on one of those stupid Nanny shows, except THOSE kids are typically white.

I swear I just watched a four year old little white girl kick and slap her mother and then have a 45 minute temper tantrum where she was tearing things up and throwing things because she didn't want to go to bed...of course, it was outrageous behavior, but I have a hard time imagining anyone justifying the police being called in and handcuffing her to "teach her a lesson."

Which makes me conclude that this has to do with race. Not that the police were called because the little girl was black, but that the perception of what is okay to do to a black kid to teach them a lesson versus a white kid is fundamentally different. It's symbolic.

[LdyGuique]

25. well, you're overlooking the difference

On the Nanny show, it is the parent(s) being hit -- and they have the right to take certain actions. The school situation had those rights removed -- they were not allowed to touch -- and the parent was unavailable. Since this had occurred before, they took the 911 option.

Schools don't have the same rights as parents.

[barb162]

26. I never saw this Nanny show but things should never get to the

point where children are hitting the parents or other adults. How does this kind of pathological crap get on TV? (I know...ratings)