What is with fundie Christian mothers killing their kids?

[Walt Starr]

Another one in Chicagoland:

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-kidsdead29.html

There is an epidemic in this nation of fundie Christian moms murdering their families. WTF is up with that?

:wtf:

[asthmaticeog]

1. I read that article this morning

and it seems this woman was mentally ill - that has nothing to do with her religion. Her husband was of the same religion, and he doesn't seem (based on the article) to have been mentally ill or homicidal.

[Walt Starr]

2. Yeah, and the Texas mom was mentally ill and so on and so forth

It's ALWAYS fundie Christian moms who are "mentally ill".

I'm not buying it.

[etherealtruth]

5. I "buy" the mental illness...

... don't the really crazed RW fundie religions attract people suffering from mental illness? I am NOT trying to be cute ... they attract emotionally vulnerable(at best) people the same way cults do.

I've seen crazed RW fundie protesters --- do not try to tell me a significant portion of them are not insane.


edit : clarity

[Walt Starr]

12. Well there's a plausible theory!

I can buy that! Fundie Fristianity draws the mentally ill.

Makes sense to me!

[ClintonTyree]

15. I agree...

a person who buys into that "apocalyptic paranoia" stuff is basically unsound to begin with. Then god tells them to kill their children so they can be with "him" in heaven.
They're lunatics. And they want to control the government. If we say or do anything against them, we're persecuting them and are branded "godless liberals". It's a no win situation. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't.
They all need serious psychological help. Look at those "snake handlers" on "60 Minutes" the other night. Those people take every word of the bible literally, like it was written in god's own hand. They're not smart enough to realize that the bible is man's interpretation of parables and ancient myths. They're scary, and need to be locked up someplace.

[FreedomAngel82]

33. Yep

Sad, really. A kid here who went to my high school (he was a grade older so I didn't really know him) killed and butchered his parents and he claimed insanity and said that God told him to do it. :crazy: I think people use that too much personally. It's so they get an easier punishment. I was watching one time something on MTV with Ozzy Osbourne and he was trying to get sober and he was in an AA-type meeting and this one woman was talking about how Christ helps her and everything. It doesn't matter to me how people stay sober but from my watching people like Robertson, Dobson etc. they love it because they can get these people. It's really sad how they are. :(

[asthmaticeog]

11. So no moderates or liberals are EVER mentally ill?

Maybe you're "not buying it" because you're cherry-picking evidence that confirms your bias. There've been cases of non-fundie moms who've killed their kids, so it's *not* ALWAYS fundie Christian moms.

Politicizing tragedies such as these makes one no different from the RW loony Schiavo protestors.

[Walt Starr]

13. Hmmm, haven't seen any stories about non-fundie moms murdering their kids

have you got any links?

[asthmaticeog]

16. .

http://www.canadiancrc.com/articles/Toronto_Sun_Murder_in_the_nursery_23MAY03.htm
http://www.ccdonline.ca/publications/latimer-watch/1196c.htm
http://www.karisable.com/ddowns.htm

[Walt Starr]

18. One in Australia, one in Canada, and one that does not mention religion at

all.

:shrug:

The links don't fit the criteria.

[asthmaticeog]

19. The links fit the criteria.

You asked for mothers who killed their children and were not Fundamentalist Christians. The article that doesn't mention religion serves to underscore the areligious nature of the crime. I've disproven your absurdly absolutist claim that only Right Wing Christian women kill their children. You're welcome.

[Walt Starr]

20. no you haven't. My post was specific to this nation

thus two of three links have absolutely nothing to do with this post.

The third mentions no religion. Usually when dealing with the mainstream media, that's a red flag that the person in question is a Reichwing fundamentalist Republican Fristian.

[asthmaticeog]

23. OK, disregard the non-USA stuff

That leaves me one perfectly applicable link (and remember, your assertion was absolute, so one is all I need) that you've denied, saying:

"Usually when dealing with the mainstream media, that's a red flag that the person in question is a Reichwing fundamentalist Republican Fristian."

The burden of proof is on YOU now, Walt. Why then, in all your other confirmation-bisaed examples (only one of which you've actualy produced) is Fundamentalist Christianity explicitly mentioned? Which is it, Walt, is the media's approach to spell it out or not?

So prove my example where religion isn't mentioned is in fact a Right-Wing Fundamentalist Christian. Then I will withdraw.

[Walt Starr]

26. No, you've supplied a link with no mention of the religion involved

it's incumbent upon YOU to provide information regarding that person's religious affiliation.

[asthmaticeog]

27. You asserted that lack of information = a specific religion.

Hop to proving it Walt, otherwise you have no basis for denying that link as evidence. I'm not playing your stupid semantic-chicanery parlor games. Argument is a tool for learning, not a kudgel to validate your need to feel right all the time.

[Walt Starr]

28. Wrong again. Look at my statement again

Keyword there was USUALLY.

:eyes:

[asthmaticeog]

30. You still have to prove your assertion.

Cite a study that has evidence that when the media leaves out mention of religion in child-murder cases, that the religion is *usually* Fundamentalist Christianity.

[etherealtruth]

24. Extremist positions or beliefs ...

...do tend to exacerbate underlying conditions. This (from me) is not an attack on religion but an ongoing attack on religious zealotry in this country.

The far right Christian fundamentalists (as well as Islamic extremists and other religious extremists world wide) tend to "forbid" or discourage women from becoming educated, they diminish the role of women in society and they place women in a subservient position in the family. This devalues and marginalizes women, leaving them feeling impotent and without options. Couple this with the ABSOLUTES presented in RW fundie practice and ignorance imposed on them by lack of education ... throw a little mental illness into the picture (about 10% of the population cutting across all demographics)and you have recipe for tragedy.

It comes down to the fact that extremist views elicit extreme responses.

[FreedomAngel82]

34. The thing with that

and Christianity is women are supposed to be equal to men through Christ. Of course to the fundies that doesn't matter as much. :eyes: Since they cherry-pick already. Remember the story of a woman who kidnapped another woman and cut open that woman's stomach to get the unborn baby out? It turned out she was a Christian. Her neighbors couldn't believe it and said she was a "good Christian woman."

[etherealtruth]

43. That's the point...

Its not Christianity or Islam or... it is the perversions that are problematic.

It's also not solely the zealotry, it needs to be coupled with the mental illness ---- but when those conditions are met the scene is set for tragedy.

Edit: grammar

[dogday]

38. I still say the husband has some culpability in the Texas Mom Case.

He knew she was not right, she had bald spots on her head from pulling her hair out and she walked back and forth in a 5x2 area for hours on end. Now it does not take a genius to know this was not the kind of person you leave the kids with....

[mutus_frutex]

49. Religious faith is a kind of mental illness.

In different degrees, of course. At least that's what it has always looked like to me.

Krakauer discusses this and makes some truly interesting points in "Under the Banner of Heaven". He comes to a different conclusion than myself, but his comments are very interesting.

Cheers..

[sniffa]

3. what? and risk the kids being Left behind?

[mopaul]

4. fundies kill their kids to protect them from evil & send them to heaven

you hear it over and over. the guy who killed his whole family and got away with it for 20 years, a fundie. said he wanted to protect his kids from sex and sin and guarantee them a place with jesus forever.

[apnu]

45. We have a winner!

This answers the question best. Fundies actually believe that bullshit. Fundies have the magical power to apply their "rules" when they like it and suspend them when they don't.

Of all the Christian sects, cults, and groups out there, those that fall into the "fundie" category are the most un-Christ-like of the bunch!

[maveric]

47. Here's her pic.

[swag]

6. There's a lot of child-killing in the Old Testament

Oh God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son"
Abe says, "Man, you must be puttin' me on"
God say, "No." Abe say, "What?"
God say, "You can do what you want Abe, but
The next time you see me comin' you better run"
Well Abe says, "Where do you want this killin' done?"
God says, "Out on Highway 61."

[demnan]

7. All that holy roller stuff

doesn't allow Mom to kick up her heels a little bit, say, "fuck you, husband, you cook for the kids tonight, I'm going to a bar and I'm going to flirt with some asshole so he buys me enough drinks to get me drunk". So all that secret hate and resentment builds up inside until it's too late.

[phaseolus]

10. I wouldn't be surprised if...

...their world frowns on people seeking & getting treatment for mental illness, since prayer should be able to cure everything.

I'm not in their world though -- feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, somebody...

[MountainLaurel]

25. No, you're dead on

I attended an independent, fundamentalist baptist church as a child. More than one sermon was dedicated to the secular evil that is psychology. The point was that mental illness doesn't exist: It's either a lack of faith and/or prayer, or a sign that you're too wrapped up in the selfish, secular world.

Having been present when my grandmother had a nervous breakdown, I knew this was utter bullshit.

[elehhhhna]

44. It's all about recruitment & retention.

[Horse with no Name]

8. I think it is continued dominance

The husband dominates the woman.
The woman is dominated by God.
Her time is dominated by the kids.
It is probably like a pressure cooker that gets too much steam and just finally blows.
Women that allow themselves to be dominated like this probably suffer from low self esteem and self worth.
I couldn't imagine being in a relationship where my husband "let me" do anything, but that is how alot of these fundie marriages are.
Perhaps thats why I'm not married,.:shrug:
If you don't value yourself--you sure as hell aren't going to value anyone else.

[TalkingDog]

9. Freud would say

That they are trying to silence the part of themselves that were wounded when they were small and defenseless.

And psychological studies tend to bear this idea out. People tend to re-enact trauma they experienced with children (their own or others) who are near in age to when their trauma first occured.

So pedos will pick children who are about the same age as s/he was when the initial abuse occured.

People who were abandoned, physically or emotionally, will leave their children at around the same age.

No, that doesn't mean everyone will react that way. But I think the combination of trauma and the fundie tendency to extreme repression make this a dangerous combination.

[salin]

14. I would sadly guess

that there is a lighter emphasis on treatment than on "prayer" in terms of treating the mental illness. That is, more lapses in therapy with the belief that prayer can help make up the difference (in the under treatment). I have also known some evangelicals who would ONLY go to "Christian" therapists... that is, therapists who entwine the bible into therapy. That greatly limits the ability to shop for therapists (eg if one isn't a good fit go to another and another) - and the one that I am familiar with - gave a lot of advice that was steeped in building "guilt" as a method for "healing"/Treatment - in ways that sometimes seemed that it exacerbated the underlying problems rather than treating the problems. Note, this is all speculation.

Damn tragedy, always. Innocent kids gone in the blink of an eye - and killed by the hand of the person they often turned to as their safe haven. Tragic. Rest in Peace.

[Cuban_Liberal]

17. I think it's a pereption created by the MSM.

I have no reason to believe tha funie moms kill their kids any more often than do non-fundie moms.

[janx]

21. There was another one in Colorado Springs last weekend.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/4412934/detail.html

[CO Liberal]

51. One of the Local Pastors Is Blaming the Hospital

But I think the problems were much deeper than that.

[jojo54]

22. I don't know what's going on but whatever it is

it needs to stop. Husband killing pregnant wife, wife killing her kids, convicted pedophiles kidnapping and killing kids (both sexes), lovers killing each other....

It's like "going postal" has taken on a whole new meaning.

[FreedomAngel82]

35. It is strange

Maybe they're just now finally popping.

[cmd]

29. These women are set up for failure

There are expected to be perfect wives and mothers in all aspects. No one can meet those ideals and stay sane. These women are stripped of their identities and put into a right wing mold of perfection. They mentally break down.

[moobu2]

31. It has to with the delusional belief that

the children will be in a better place, which makes sense for a lot of Christians during very stressful piriods unfortunately.

They're preoccupied with death anyway and even worship a bloody corpse nailed to a cross with steel spikes etc..

[johnfunk]

32. Religion + unhinged individual = potential catastrophe

...or maybe it's
Religion x ( unhinged individual - ( therapy x supportive family)² ) = potential catastrophe

I'll have to work on the math...

[donsu]

36. a lot of women are having children that they don't really want

and they cannot express this out loud (and sometimes even to themselves) because of family/mate beliefs and pressures. (there is something wrong with a women who doesn't want children, etc.) religion plays a big part in keeping women tied to having children.

after a number of years with their children their conflicted feelings come to a head and violence happens.

[youthere]

37. Jeez.

And they think abortion is evil. Wow.

[SoCalDem]

39. No epidemic.. Just a press corps that loves to focus on sensationalism

There have always been cases like this, but they were handled locally,and not beamed around the world to scare everyone into thinking that their child is in "danger"..

Media today is fixated on scaring the public into watching them..Don't dare miss the next "warning".. It COULD mean YOUR life:eyes:


We have gone from watching the news to see what happened....to watching the news to see what "might happen" to us..

We're so vainnnnnn.. we probably think the news is about us !!!!

[Cuban_Liberal]

42. Exactly!

"If it bleeds, it leads" in the MSM...

[leftofthedial]

40. I dunno. Christianity is a death cult

other than that I think fundy-ism is a kind of mental illness

so the sample gets skewed by people who see death as a positive transition (go to heaven) and are mentally off to begin with. Maybe this increases the selection for this kind of tragic act enough to seem like an epidemic.

[Taverner]

41. EXACTLY!!!

If dems had any balls, REAL balls this would be a total talking point.

We should talk Ad Nauseum about the "Fundie Child Killing" problem.

I'M dead serious!

[Quixote1818]

46. These kinds of people are mentally ill and that enhances their perception

of much of the content in the Bible. They are not able to separate reality from fantasy. Unfortunately the Bible has a number of writings that can lead to disaster if the person reading them is mentally ill and takes them too literal. It's just a bad combo! Mentaly ill people should stay away from the Bible.

[belladonna]

48. I worry about my brother's ex-girlfriend

Who is also the mother of my niece. She's gone seriously nuts over the past few years, claims that she talks personally to God on a daily basis and that God himself told her she didn't need to work anymore. So guess who supports her and my niece now? My dumbass brother, who just will not listen to the rest of the family when we BEG him to try to get custody from her.

[moobu2]

50. Talking to invisible people,

especially when a hallucination manifests and talks back, should be enough to get custody of a child.

Good luck to your niece.

[belladonna]

52. I think my brother is at the end of his rope and will go along soon

She's always held the child over his head and made threats that he'd never see her again if he didn't toe the line and, unfortunately, he bought into it. It's come to the point now that my niece is not even allowed to watch cartoons like Rugrats and has started telling her father that God told Mommy that they'd get a new three story house if she did all the right thngs. Honestly, the woman is whacked out and I'm concerned enough that if he doesn't make a move soon, I will.