How to win the South (In a Young Dem's Opinion)

[true_notes]

I was raised on a mid-sized Tennessee farm, right by the Tennessee river. My roots are planted there. I listen to country music, drink Budweiser (only when I'm home)and I swim in the river. I'm a redneck, but with an opinion.

My father,grandfathers,mother and grandmothers all are yellow dog democrats. They would vote the democrat in regardless of his name in the community, past political record, etc. Dangerous voting, sure, but it worked. The tides turned in the '04 elections when my parents voted for Bush. When confronted about it, They said they voted for him simply because he was a good o' boy from Texas. Simple minds, people, this is what we are dealing with, so here is the solution to that.

The south and midwest are about grit. That's all they want to see in anything, from football to a congressional election. If you have balls, they will vote...period. This goes without saying you have must have a brain to sway the educated. All in all, you have to have the package to win, not just a brain such as Kerry.

We need a hybrid dem to run for office. The Progressive Dixicrat is what I would call it. Prime example:Howard Dean! Sure the guy is from the NE, BUT he's got a brain and balls, and plays smart and fair. The southerners, once exposed to Dean, I feel would appreciate him as a valid candidate.

Deep inside every southerner is that yearning for the days of Roosevelt's New Deal. The old guys pass stories of the depression and how Roosevelt was the south's, not to mention the nation's savior. That is the dixiecrat spirit at work, and we, as a party need to figure something out fast.

The south will vote Dem if there's balls involved.
Thanks

[Coexist]

1. Clark's a tough general from Arkansas

in your opinion, will go over well?

[true_notes]

7. It doesn't matter where you are from..

Clark didn't go over to well, in my opinion because his opinions were too thick. People who scream, act a damn fool on stage, and promise bread on the table will have people in the south going to the polls in droves.

[bookman]

18. Clark is fine tuning...

..his style. I saw him with Wolf today and he was excellent. Wolf gave him 10 seconds to make a point and he did a great job. Clark in '08 will much improved over '04 as a politician.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

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[Al-CIAda]

36. Huey P. Long...yes, 100% spot on. "A Chicken in every pot...

...and every man a king.

Moral outrage, conviction, no mincing of words.

[Clark2008]

78. I'm IN Tennessee and I know NO ONE who dislikes Clark

Sure, many Republicans may not vote for him, but they said they'd be fine with him as president.
I do know classic conservatives who were slobbering to get a chance to vote for him in a general election against Bush.
Maybe there's more your parents aren't telling you. I rather suspect they've been "brainwashed" by all that right-wing media we have down here.

[true_notes]

91. Brainwashed

couldn't be more truer. I set em straight though ;).

[formernaderite]

65. he comes across as a policy wonk....

even though he's a general. That's what happens when you're entrenched in the power structure for too long.

[Clark2008]

80. "I'll beat the shit out of 'em..."

That doesn't sound too wonkish to me. :7

[Al-CIAda]

2. "The south will vote Dem if there's balls involved."

Speaking also as a southerner, THIS is the SIMPLE TRUTH.
The spirit of Huey Long.

Good post.

[Must_B_Free]

31. I have always accued the South of feelings of emasculation left from the

Civil War.

So it would go to figure that they'd admire balls.

[B Calm]

3. Personally, I don't want another Dixicrat. I want a pro labor

politician. Where he or she comes from means nothing to me as long as they stand up for the working class!!

[patricia92243]

10. Dixicrat - wasn't Strom Thurmond a Dixiecrat? n/t

[ultraist]

33. Yes, and Dixiecrats voted for Jesse Helms

Dixiecrats voted Dem on a local level and Republican for US Congress and President, for the most part.

[rfranklin]

4. The other part of the formula for the Dems was...

Letting the Dixiecrats keep the black people segregated and oppressed. That part of the mindset is still exploited by the Republicans by hammering "affirmative action," "the gay agenda," and "godless liberals."

Without the scapegoating, will there be any traction?

[serryjw]

5. Not Balls but Charm

I lived in Atlanat for 10 years and have friends,black & white, some more educated than others....They voted for Clinton because he was charming and they 'thought' he understood their blight. Dean is not running in 2008 so forget talking about it. He made a promise that he said this morning on MTP that he will keep.
I have no idea who we have that would be as charming as Clinton but my vote is for Clark or Boxer...or BOTH!

[patricia92243]

6. I'm Dean all the way - but he will not run in '08 - and it kills me to say

this - he didn't win the primaries. So, its not likely he would win even the primaries again - much less the Presidency.

I think he has found the right nich for himself. I believe he is/will be great at Party building, and that is what we need.

Now, if we can teach him to be rude and stand up to Timmmy, he will be perfect - and I have every confidence he will learn.

[billymc2]

134. re: I'm Dean all the way - but he will not run in '08 - and it kills me

Me too, he should go for it

[SCRUBDASHRUB]

169. Welcome to DU, billymc2. Lots of new DU'ers lately.

[quaoar]

8. The Republicans have demonized Democrats for so long

that it will take a while to reverse that perception.

John Kerry had balls. It takes balls to win the Silver Star. The only balls Bush encountered during the Vietnam War were highballs. And yet Bush was perceived as the tougher candidate. That was because of the decades of demonizing Democrats as limp-wristed pantywaists that people automatically assume it -- regardless what the facts are.

The Democrat with the best chance to win the South would be a governor or someone else not connected to Washington, someone with charisma who talks like a populist, someone who doesn't spend a lot of time trying to massage his stances -- someone straight forward.

And he doesn't have to be from the South. The new governor of Montana is such a person.

BTW, welcome to DU.

[true_notes]

12. Military records do not get you the Presidency

That's apparent. I'm not doubting Kerry's BRAVERY. But he didn't have BALLS to stand up what he believed in. He was the common I dunno dupe that we get every once in a while.It's ok. He was weak as a candidate. Not every state is Massachusetts (sp?).

[Al-CIAda]

13. Kerry in the 60's-70's had 'balls', this Kerry in '04 -um, no.

I will not go over the list, for it would be redundant and far too long.
The man is clearly brilliant and quite intelligent, but was afraid to take the gloves off, while being blown to bits over lies, lies, and more lies.

[chaumont58]

102. I'm not a real Kerry fan

but from what I read, it was his campaign team that didn't want a response to the Swift Boat Liars. He wanted to. He should have went after those POS with hammer and tongs. He could asked a simple question: When my ass was getting shot, where was Bush? Kerry could have said, "I got three Purple Hearts and a Silver Star. Bush has callouses on his butt." Hindsight is 20/20, so its easy to fault Bob Shrum, but jesus, Shrum was zero for seven before he took over Kerry's campaign. He retired after another zero.
I don't think the Kerry team ran a good campaign, but being from California, I really didn't see much. Most presidential campaigns are not national campaigns, but a series of state campaigns. California was not contested, so he didn't campaign out here.

[true_notes]

9. I'm saying

Dean is should be a mentor for future candidates. In the near future, we'll need someone like him sitting in the oval office. And for the dixiecrat loathers, sometimes you have to take a hit for the team to get the win. The south is where the votes are these days, and that's apparent in the past 2 elections.

[autorank]

176. The West & the South are where the votes are.

The West because we whooped up out there in 2004 - Colorado, Senator; Montana, Governor, Legislature; and you saw how we did in my birthplace, California. When we win Montana, you know there is a fire building.

The South becaue we have so much room to grow and because there is a populist message that will resonate down there.

Get those voters out!

[Solly Mack]

11. You do know that Dixiecrat is just another word for conservative racist

from the south, don't you? That went on to become part of the Republican Party...a HUGE part of the Republican party....a lasting part of the GOP.....elements of which are still within the GOP today.

Google the Dixiecrat Party...circa 1948.

Progressive Dixiecrat is right up there with Compassionate Conservatism. Doesn't exist.

[true_notes]

15. Back home...

Dixiecrat has morphed into the Yellow Dog Dems that this party has unfortunately lost. Complaining of past racism isn't going to get them back. Times and terms have changed,solly, and so does this party.

[ultraist]

23. Here in NC, Dixiecrat is white code speak

"Complaining of past racism"

Racism is a CURRENT social ill.

[Solly Mack]

26. I'm from the south and Dixiecrat racism isn't in the past

and nothing will change the fact that the Dixiecrats were a group of white southern democratic party bigots who embraced Jim Crow and left to join the GOP. Not time...not anything.

I'm not holding an olive branch out to anyone who wants people to make allowances for their bigotry. It's not me that has to change or compromise my beliefs.

I grew up in the south. I managed to grow up there without falling for the bullshit republicans dish out and too many southerners have bought into. It's those people who did that need to change and to rethink their beliefs.

I'm sick of southerners that blame the Democrats for "abandoning" them...no one abandoned the south...the south has made some incredibly stupid choices they like to frame as state's rights.

[true_notes]

50. I can't believe that post...

The democrats has pretty much fucked the south over due to letting the republican leeches pour money into corporate farms. As we ALL know most of the southern states are based around industry and agriculture. Once you loose your livelyhood, you loose your policies that you leaned against, and you change your politic to better suit you. The republicans know this, so they used, I hate to be redundant, the good ol' boy tactics to get bush elected so they could further destroy great people like my family. DONT TELL ME THE DEMS ON THE FEDERAL LEVEL HAVEN'T HUNG US TO DRY! I HAVE LIVED IT.

[Solly Mack]

60. Oh, bullshit

Anyone that believes the lies of the GOP is to blame for ANY repercussions that comes from believing those lies. No one told conservative southerners to believe the GOP. No one twisted their arm.
Southerners that bought the GOP lies can blame themselves and ONLY themselves.

You said it yourself...the republicans used the good ol' boy tactic and southerners fell for it. Well? If you fall for shit why are you surprised to wake up in shit? The GOP "good ol'boy" tactic is nothing more than playing to a persons bigotry , ignorance, and fear...and some southerners bought into it.

I've no doubt Republican policies have harmed your family...but that in no way changes that conservative southerners bought the lies the Republicans were selling. Whatever reasons they had...they still bought the lie.

The conservative south has to change. The conservative south needs to let their belligerence go. They need to remove that chip off their shoulder and wake up to the fact that the GOP is selling them out everyday. They've been sold a false bill of goods...and instead of asking for more, they need to tell the GOP to go the fuck away.

[true_notes]

73. Hey,

Why don't you tell me YOUR solution to make this happen since you are educated on the south and all. I would sincerely be all ears and would consider every word. Then I will put it in front of the common thinking southerner and see what they would say.



Your reply please?

[Solly Mack]

74. I have told you :o)

You just don't like the answer. Conservative southerners have to change. Oh, it has to be a grass roots effort...but the fact remains, conservative southerners have to let go of the lies they tell themselves and the republican party encourages.

[tavalon]

136. That will take generations

This representative republic will be history before that happens. Sorry, we do have to find a way to get them back and if that means putting up another good 'ol boy to counter their rethug crap then we had best do it because there isn't much time left.

(of course, without fixing the Diebold problem, this whole conversation is moot but discussion on this topic is important)

[Telly Savalas]

141. So we need a two-pronged attack.

We need to both find candidates which appeal to current voters and to engage in a longterm fight on the battlefield of ideas at the same time. The problem with a lot of bigwigs in the Democratic Party is that they eschew the latter cause in the hopes of promoting the former. That is, we water down our message and sell out important causes in the hopes of keeping our candidates "electable". The end result though is that we wind up failing on both counts because our candidates come across as insincere, and we only help reinforce the conservative smear that "liberal" is a dirty word.

The O.P.'s comments essentially apply not to just the South, but the entire country. With the exception of us internet politics geeks, most Americans aren't policy wonks. They just want a straight-shooting no bullshit candidate that has a clear vision of where (s)he wants to take the country. So called "good ole boys" voted in droves for a quasi-socialist 70 years ago, and could very well do it again if we find the right candidate.

[ultraist]

85. "The GOP is selling them out everyday"

That is the key. To convince them of the truth. And the way to do that is by highlighting economic issues, such as Bush's cut on farm subsidies and other policies that cater to the upper 6%.

This is not to say we should pander to the worst of the worst racist fundie types. We don't need their votes and we should not compromise to gain them.

[Solly Mack]

92. Exactly. You tell them the truth

But you NEVER pander to anyones bigotry.

[oxbow]

107. Many don't care about economic issues

social issues trump those because they are part of a person's identity. They will gladly go with less food on the table rather than change who they are. Until the Democrats become the party of God again in the public eye, they will not win these people over. Part of this is framing, part policy. I really like the billboard that says "Jesus helped the poor, So do Democrats" for instance. We definitely need more of that thinking out there.

[misanthrope]

72. I concur...

...from the deep, dark heart of Dixie

[Clark2008]

88. What part of Tennessee are you in?

That is NOT the definition of Yellow Dog Dem in the Eastern part of the state, I'll tell you that much.
I'm sorry. I don't get what you're saying?
A.) Clark has balls and connected very well. It was the media who said he didn't.
B.) We don't call Yellow Dog Dems, "Dixiecrats."
C.) While I do agree with you that Southerners want "tough talkers," you must understand that most of the media in the South is dominated by right-wingers who will never let these "tough talkers" filter through. Kerry's problem was that he didn't campaign down here, to speak of, and the folks didn't hear him talk tough. The next Dem nominee needs to climb down out of the Ivory Tower and walk amongst the blue and purple folks on the farms and in the diners in the South.

[true_notes]

93. There you go

another key to another gate.

Campaigning! Kerry didn't do shit in TN, and I suspect in the south, other than florida due to fear of reaction. Get down here and politic at a hayride. get away from the cameras, connect with the people. Get something going on the roots level. Running for president isn't american idol, and shouldn't be treated as so.

[Al-CIAda]

17. What I percieved the poster to infer by Dixiecrat was

Pro gun rights, pro labor, pro immigration reform, and such, but I agree, sans-racism.

[true_notes]

21. Things like that

possibly will not change in the south. It's a values-rich community, and jobs are still believe it or not slimming out there due to Mexican immigration. It's pissing the locals off. Guns are a must in the south. Hunting with your son is like milk in your cornbread. It's that essential to them.

[tavalon]

137. That would be buttermilk with your cornbread

I'm from way southern Georgia (okay, Central Florida but I promise you that part of Florida is indistinguishable from south Georgia)

[ultraist]

14. Dixiecrat? NO WAY. Progressive populist works tho

Charm, charisma and TALKS ABOUT RACISM AND POVERTY. (Which Kerry did not). That's who we are as DEMOCRATS. The party that cares about EVERYONE, not just the white middle class and elitists.

[Lannes]

16. Im a fan of Dean's but..

But I dont think he helps the Dems by branding people with centrist views on certain issues as "Republican lite".IMO a centrist would have the best chance of getting elected.He or she could then move further to the left after being elected if they so desired.

[Stinky The Clown]

19. Folks ........ ignore this young person at your own peril

He's (She's?) speaking truth to ya ..... he really is.

You can parse and yammer and find fault all ya want .... but that would be a mistake.

This view tends to be avoided or ignored by us .... but the message is absolutely spot on. For you Dean folks out there, I'm sure you can provide the quotes or links that show Dean's message really would have worked in the South. I know I heard it, but don't recall where. I'd love to see that posted here.

So back to my point ...... ignore this message at your own peril.

[ultraist]

29. Except Dean was totally out of touch with Southerners

"Rebel flag pick up truck drivers" WTF?

I do agree with Dean that Repuke lite will not work. We need to return to our core values, which INCLUDE discussions of POVERTY and RACISM. It's not just about the "middle class."

I've lived in the South, most of my life. I know many, many conservative Democrats and the old guard. For them, it's more about somone who understands the South and speaks their language. That's why they liked Clinton and Carter. (They did NOT like Kerry).

If you want to win the South, you need a Southerner, like John Edwards.

[Eloriel]

58. What do you think he meant by that

"Rebel flag pick up truck drivers" WTF?

Or at least the context in which it was said, which involves what he meant by it. Do you know? I seriously doubt it. If you even remotely understood it, you'd have had no occasion to say this in the context of Dean:

We need to return to our core values, which INCLUDE discussions of POVERTY and RACISM.

[ultraist]

81. No need to be RUDE

Dean made a MISTAKE by using that phrase. I understand what he intended, but it came off as though we should embrace "rebel flag" waver REDNECKS and that all Southerners are rednecks. Believe me, we in the South CRINGED when we heard him say that.

We all KNOW good and fuck well, here in the South, that rebel flags are a racist symbol. Do you understand that aspect of his rebel flag comment? Have you ever been to the South? "I seriously doubt it."

[Bouncy Ball]

178. I didn't cringe.

I knew exactly what he was saying. And I was intrigued that anyone was actually SAYING something like that. We DO need to talk about racism. I knew he was saying that and I welcomed it.

[Bouncy Ball]

177. You obviously didn't understand what Dean was saying.

He wasn't saying we had to AGREE with the guy with the rebel flag in his truck.

He was saying that guy has been ignored by one side and pandered to by the other and maybe someone out to see what he has to say.

If what he has to say is ugly, then go on with your bad self.

But at least someone asked.

I'm as Texan as they get and I loved Dean, and I knew tons of Texans who loved him, too. Hell, even my repuke friends had to admit (begrudgingly) that they really liked Dean's style. They were afraid he'd win the nom and then beat bush, but in their honest moments, they had to admit they admired him.

[AP]

20. I talked a TN'ean into voting for Edwards after having a conversation...

...about how all this guy wanted in life was enough money to pay the rent and buy food.

We talked about how retail prices for food have increased, yet the price food companies pay farmers for their food hasn't increased. So, what has been happening over the last couple decades is that super-large corporations have been making a ton of profit that comes out of the wealth that should be accumulating in the hands of the people who work to make the food (the farmers) and the consumers (who are paying too much food). The net effect is that farmers are really struggling and this guy isn't saving money so that he could buy a house, which would be a great way to make his life easier and happier (due to the fact that he'd have more economic power coming from built up equity). I said that that was wrong.

He said at the end of the conversation, "is this what John Edwards's believes in?"

I told him that John Edwards cares about closing this gap ... about not seeing all the wealth of this country flow to the hands of a few people while people who work to create it and people who buy from them suffer.

"Then I'm voting for him."

Edwards did pretty well in TN.

[true_notes]

27. My Father...

Is on Welfare because of that exact situation. I sent 20% of my pay home to the parents to help pay bills. Small town farmers are a dying breed. I don't know what I will do when I inherit the ranch. But aside from that, Edwards did well in TN because *gasp*He was in touch with the southerners and he knew what people like my father were going through.

[AP]

40. People who work, people who buy: getting squeezed. Big Corps in the middle

doing well BECAUSE they're squeezing everyone else.

Who is surprised that the Democrats who speak to this issue do well?

[whistle]

22. Perhaps, but deep down inside every southerner....

...do they wish to give up what the Republican southern strategists have appealed to and apparently delivered on?


<snip>
From The Black Commentary
November 20, 2003
Black Voters and White Racists Frustrate Louisiana GOP

It was to have been the glorious culmination of an utterly cynical strategy. Louisiana would become the fourth state domino in less than six weeks to fall to the GOP juggernaut – only this victory would be the sweetest of all, propelling a young brown Republican into a Deep South governor’s mansion and ending forever the GOP’s stigma as the White Man’s Party. A Black Trojan Horse Democratic Mayor offered son-of-immigrants Bobby Jindal the keys to New Orleans, lending deeper color to the deceit. Wine-sipping white suburbanites anxiously anticipated the ascension of their Great Brown Hope, who would cleanse their privilege, purge all vestiges of guilt, and validate once and for all their assertions of color blindness. A harmonious, business-friendly era would commence, and maybe, just maybe, the more recalcitrant and bitter Blacks would finally see the futility of their racial fixations.

Black folks and Bubba burst that bubble. When the election returns rolled in on Saturday night, November 15, Republicans discovered that their phony minority outreach strategy had failed its southern test, defeated by an abused but still remarkably unified Black electorate and a revolt among the party’s mass base in the rural and small town white “heartland.” New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin’s cross-party endorsement turned out to be only worth an extra four percent of the city’s Black vote, and the pro-Jindal editorializing of two hustling Black newspapers, less than that. Come January, conservative Democrat Kathleen Blanco (nee Babineaux), from Cajun-land (politely referred to as Acadia) will plant her undeserving behind in the Governor’s chair, imagining that charm and vacuous “moderation” put her there. Leroy (or more accurately, Leona) and Bubba know different.

“There was a quick, gut reaction to equate Bobby Jindal as an Arab Muslim,” says Dr. Marshall Stevenson, Dean of Social Sciences at historically Black Dillard University, in New Orleans. The fact that Jindal is of East Indian extraction “apparently didn’t mean anything to the white rural voter.”

The ballot numbers testify that an American-born, converted Catholic scion of an upper caste Hindu family is still just a “sand nigger” to Bubba, who takes the creed of the White Man’s Party seriously

<more>
<link> http://www.blackcommentator.com/65/65_cover_louisiana.html

[Radical Activist]

24. If you stop trying to make Dean something that he isn't

then I think you'll really be on to something.

[Stinky The Clown]

28. Don't make this *about* Dean .....

.... cuz you'll lose the kernal of truth ....... make it about the underlying message of what reasonates down there. That's the truth.

[Radical Activist]

116. I think that's what i was saying.

There's a good message there about what we need. The mistake is in thinking Dean fits that description.

[napi21]

25. Well, I'm originally from Pa, but lived in SC, TX and now Ga.

True_Notes has it right! Just look at how a whole lot of Americans responded to that short 45 minutet hearing with Galloway! It wasn't only Dems that are hungry for that kind of strong, plain speach! Lots of people call that "having the balls to do it"!

I keep trying to think of who we have in the Dem party who is not only like that, but also capable of appearing to be your good friend.

Boxer has the "balls" but she doesn't seem to have the charisma. Clark has them too, but doesn't seem to connect on the personal level. I personally was very interested in Biden, because he seems to have both charachteristics, but he's been in the Senate for so long, I'm afraid his past positions and votes would burry him in a campaign.

I keep watching and listening to cspan, DU and waiting for that shining star.

[Stinky The Clown]

32. Good analysis

Particularly about Biden .... right style and capable of the right rhetoric ..... but the record .... he's tired, he's wishy washy philosophically. He's a REAL wet-finger-in-wind kinda guy.

But yeah .... he's got the style we need.

[ultraist]

39. There is no way Biden could win the South

Another New England elitist doesn't stand a chance. Have you ever lived in the South?

[Clark2008]

82. Yep... Biden wouldn't make a dent down here - even though, MOST

of the time, I like him.
(There have been times he angers me, though).

[tnlefty]

37. Plain talk is easily understood is another way to phrase it.

In other words, talk straight, be a straight-shooter, and don't be afraid to tell the truth.

I DON'T mean to dumb things down 'cause that won't necessarily go over well. How so many were suckered in by bush** and still remain suckered by him just blows my mind.

[AP]

41. Biden?! I accept Biden as the best Dem who can get elected in Delaware --

a state RUN BY BIG CORPORATIONS.

I do not accept Biden as the best Dem to run for president. Not by a mile.

[chaumont58]

34. I'm a senior citizen from California

I'm sure I reduce the South to stereotypes, but I feel there is a lot of latent racism in white male Southerners. Nixon had a Southern strategy for a reason. If my stereotype is correct, it is going to be a tough sell to overcome. As a democrat, I don't want to see my party give up on civil rights.
Another stereotype is the belief that the fundies churchs have enormous power in the region. Is it called the bible belt without reason? The separation issue, as is the civil rights issue, is a national issue, witness Kansas battling over the teaching of evolution. In California, this fight reared its ugly head some years ago in Southern California. Costa Mesa, if I can remember right.
If it really is a question of grit, Howard Dean would do just fine. But a more likely nominee is Hilary Clinton, and good lord, has any couple on earth had to show more true grit than the Clintons?

[true_notes]

38. Clinton would die

a horrible bloody political death in the south. 1:/she's a woman (southerners view women in office as strict tabboo) 2:/the media labeled her a ultra-liberal. 3:/south views her as a reverse carpet bagger. 4:/Doesn't really care about interests in the south.

There you go, 4 reasons is all you really need to realize Hil wouldn't stand a chance in hell in the south.

[Al-CIAda]

43. I am forced to echo this analysis as well. n/t

[QC]

44. "southerners view women in office as strict tabboo"

That's not strictly the case, as you would surely know if you knew anything about Southern politics. There are quite a few women holding statewide elected offices in the South, including Alabama's Lieutenant Governor Lucy Baxley, a favorite for our gubernatorial nomination next election.

[Al-CIAda]

46. Its more of a food chain type thing.

A post above refers to La.'s choosing Blanco (woman) over Jindal(male). Is the woman pro gun? She would more or less have to be, unless she's running against one of them thar' foriegners (Jindal). This is getting slightly off as it relates more to the old Dem. racists. Not many left, as David Duke took them with him to the Repubs., but they are there.

To win the South, especially for President, the woman must be at min. pro gun & pro immigration reform -IMO She's got to be percieved as 'tough', but even so, I do not think the south will go for womenfolk in the Oval Office. Just my opinion, not saying it is correct or that I even hold such views (I don't), but it is how I percieve the situation.

[Daphne08]

118. You perceive it correctly.

I was born and raised in the South, and until a few years ago, had lived there most of my life, so I know what I'm saying is true, and any other Southerner will back it up.

The Democrats lost millions of Southern voters with the anti-gun talk. Period.

[true_notes]

47. We're talking Presidency here

I once heard a man in the barber shop say he would rather see a black man in office before a woman. That sentiment pretty much echoes throughout the conservative south. Sure women hold offices, the feds would come down on the state if they didn't, but then again, a woman in the presidents chair is not a fantasy of the south.

[QC]

48. Do you have any actual evidence to base any of this on?

All I'm seeing here is "conventional wisdom" and anecdotes. A little something empirical would be nice.

[true_notes]

52. Unfortunately

I do not carry tape recorders into the barber shop and such. But I will tell you this, Polls, news stories, and rumors are not what get you elected in the south. It's that old man telling stories to the other 10 gents in there getting their necks shaven. The common mouth is the greatest tool of the politician, not some talking head on tv, or fancy graphical poll blowing things out of porportion. The ability to sway peers is the best way to sway elections. Period.

[Debs]

87. Here is another anecdote

I work for a railroad and they bought another RR line into New Orleans. I went there for nine months so they could open the line with experienced people before they hired for the area. I lived in a medium sized city (Opelousus) and worked in a large city (Lafayette) The racism was so thick there you could cut it with a knife. This was 1997 long after Duke ran for office and virtually every telephone pole in Lafayette had a 'This is Duke country" placard on it. The KKK had two programs on the cable access channel. I am not a southerner so I am not sure what the answer is. I AM sure that appeals to racism cannot be part of the Dem party message. Its flat out wrong. IF thats what it takes and I am not saying it is but IF it is then the price is WAAAAAY to high. When you dance with the devil the devil don't change, he changes you. I say find a good populist candidate, one that will not soften his message about the need for racial justice and let the chips fall where they may. If the south votes for him all the better, if they cannot do so, they can continue to suffer from GOP policies and blame it on Dems.

[wildflower]

63. How do you feel about...

1) Barack Obama?

2) Brian Schweitzer (recently elected Dem. Gov. of Montana)? Good article on Schweitzer if you're interested: http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0412.sirota.html

Someone recently posted a list of historical keys used to predict winners. One of them is charisma. In my view, Obama and Edwards both have this. I've never seen Schweitzer speak so I don't know if he does, but from what I've read (e.g. in the article above), he's got that "grit."

-wildflower

[oxbow]

109. Obama in '12 maybe

He won't have been a senator for even one term in '08. Wayyy too green.

[ultraist]

54. I agree, what an outdated perspective

Elizabeth Dole & Mary Landrieu, case in point.

I will say however, I do not think the US is ready to elect a woman as PRESIDENT. The Midwest, for instance, has very traditional views on gender roles. It's one think for a woman to hold public office of Senator, Gov, and other state level positions, but as PRESIDENT?

[Extend a Hand]

124. lurleen wallace

was elected governor of Alabama in 1966 (3rd woman governor in the nation)

[southlandshari]

152. To be fair

she was only elected as a proxy for her husband, who was prohibited from running again by term limits.

But Alabama does have a good shot at another female governor - one who is the "real deal" - in Lucy Baxley in our next election. Oh, and she's a Democrat, too.

[southlandshari]

150. I disagree that southerners view women in office as strict taboo

There are female legislators in several states, both at the state and national level.

But I do agree that Hillary is unelectable in the South. I think it has far more to do with her malleability on important issues than it does with her gender.

[renaissanceguy]

189. Not so.

If southerners view "women in office as taboo," Texas wouldn't have had a Governor Richards; Arkansas wouldn't have a Senator Lincoln or Rep. Berry; North Carolina wouldn't have Reps. Foxx and Myrick; Louisiana wouldn't have Governor Blanco or Senator Landrieu; Kentucky wouldn't have Rep. Northup; New Mexico wouldn't have Rep. Wilson; Arizona wouldn't have Gov. Napolitano; Georgia wouldn't have Reps. McKinney or Westmoreland; Virginia wouldn't have Reps. Davis or Drake, Missouri wouldn't have Rep. Emerson; and Florida wouldn't have Reps. Brown, Brown-Waite, Harris, Ros-Lehtinen, or Schultz.

So much for taboo.


http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues.21272015

[ultraist]

42. We also have a large Black population in the South

22% in NC (nearly twice the national average)
28% in GA
29% in SC

90% of Blacks vote Democrat. IF a candidate FAILS to discuss racism, they will not turn out the base.

There is just as much racism in Northern states and the Midwest, where there are few Blacks, is WORSE IMO now, than in the South. The gap between education, income, health care is WORSE in NY than it is in NC. Racism is not just a "Southern" problem anymore. Northern states are very segregated.

SC has four times the number of black-white marriages than the nation as a whole.

The white Evangelical or fundies are REPUBLICANS and will not vote Democrat. They are the worst racists.

[true_notes]

45. There's a lot of Evilenglicals

That can be turned around. in my old church you could here the bible thumping a mile away, but they voted democrat because they lived more comfortably.

[ultraist]

59. I don't think we should waste our time

on wooing anti-choice Evangelicals. They are NOT typical swing voters. The fact is, if we simply turned out all registered Democrats, we could win. NC has more registered Democrats than registered Repukes. This is the case in many Southern states. We need to be certain they vote and they vote Dem at the top of the ticket. That's the issue: Low turn out and swing votes at the top of th ticket.

[chaumont58]

106. I'm pleasantly surprised

"SC has four times the number of black-white marriages than the nation as a whole."

About 10 years back, I worked with a white NewYorker who had married a Jamacian girl. She was a really pleasant person. At that time, they had a little boy about 2 years old. Mulatto, of course(there is a word I hope sees it last). He was one of the cutest, best behaved children I have even seen. I left the company, and later heard that family had moved to South Carolina. Sweet Jesus, I thought, into the den of hell. Its good to hear I was not right. That family consists totally of good people.

[autorank]

35. Very good point. We need to get angry and make the case.

Why would anyone get really excited about our candidate unless that candidate has some passion. I voted and worked for Kerry. Even without passion, he did extremely well (after all, he won the fucking election, which was stolen, doubt me, go here ALL THE PROOF YOU NEED THAT 2004 WAS STOLEN

I think Clark is the most qualified presidential candidate. I support him but I want to see him come out swinging more. He's done it and he can do it, he just needs to start rattling cages.

This approach will work everywhere, not just in the South.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

49. You've got the right idea

The south is winnable again but the people here require a straight shooting, hard-ass that isn't afraid to slam the opposition when they don't show the same. The winning candidate in the south will have a style that resembles Dean in passion and a message that speaks to the struggling masses. They want to hear that things can and will get better for each and every one of them. The majority of the southerners have to be reached on individual issues and not global ones.

You're correct about them yearning for the days of Roosevelt's New Deal, I've heard that concept glamorized many times in different ways here. The people are hungry and it's within our reach to feed them. We need someone who when they cry "gay marriage" will reply with, what does that have to do with feeding your family? How does that apply to your mother not being able to pay her bills now that your father has passed on? Don't let them distract you! I'm here to help you, not use you! In other words we need someone who will call them on their game in words that the average person can relate to.

I don't think the candidate has to be a southerner by geography but they have to express the true feelings of the south. Grit, I like that word. It's exactly what the people of the south crave and would vote for.

[Al-CIAda]

51. Huey P. Long. He could have been President -until he was assasinated. n/t

[Lone_Star_Dem]

55. Yes, he could have.

Because he offered a clear alternative and wasn't afraid to voice his opinions. That is how you reach southerners still to this day.

[Stinky The Clown]

56. "I'm here to help you, not use you!"

You need to get a copyright on that line!

Best line in this whole post ..... best line I've read in weeks.

Donate it to the DNC .... they can use it!

[Lone_Star_Dem]

76. Thanks

I'll offer it and hope someone listens.

[Cleita]

53. So they would vote for another white guy like Howard Dean.

How come they didn't vote for him in the primaries the first time around. (Now I don't know if Tennessee voted for him or not, but I do know that Iowa didn't and that dumped him out of the race.)I supposed a woman of color or even a white one like Hillary Clinton wouldn't stand a chance.

This is what's wrong with the south. They will let a person with brilliant mind and morally upstanding character slide by just because that person didn't come in the right packaging. What if Howard Dean had been a Black or Hispanic woman, would S/he have won them over?

[true_notes]

57. Then again that's what's wrong with you,

That you can't realize that changes take a LONG TIME in politics. It will take time for the south to become minority/female friendly because of the past, which is something that the south doesn't want to let go of. In the mean time, we have to work with what we've got, so I suggest for all feminists to put their plans for a woman president on hold for a while. The south will NOT vote!

[ultraist]

61. The midwest will NOT vote for a woman for President

KANSAS, for instance with it's HUGE Evangelical population.

[QC]

68. Exactly--it's not only the South that's at issue,

but I think you and I both know by now what a popular strategy it is around here to locate all social problems in the South. I guess it makes people feel better.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

75. The sad thing is

It's a Republican strategy and some (Dem's) promote it time and time again.

[mitchtv]

101. I guess Gov. Kathleen Siblelius (D KS) can forget

about "favorite son" status

[ultraist]

62. The midwest will NOT vote for a woman for President

KANSAS, for instance with it's HUGE Evangelical population.

[Solly Mack]

66. Then the south needs to evolve doesn't it?

All you are doing is advocating for people to adapt to the bigotry of some southerners instead of working to change the south for the better...and that's right wing neo-con bullshit.

I'm female and FUCK anyone and everyone in the south (or anywhere else for that matter) that is sexist. I'll not take a back seat to any ignorant bubba who has some ass backward notions of what woman should be doing.

[true_notes]

71. NeoCon Bullshit is...

Making you, as a woman, staying the kitchen and cook and clean, raise the kids, with no hope of the outside world. Thank you for trying to undermine the message dear, but it's not going to happen.

Women in the south are regarded as property of the man. Period. I'm not saying that is MY beliefs, because it isn't, and I'm not promoting this because it is entirely wrong. BUT it is the problem, that is facing the feminist movement in the south. GET USED TO IT SOLLY. This is going to take time to change. In the mean time, put a progressive in office and smooth the south over little by little. Why are you in a hurry?

[Solly Mack]

77. Bullshit. My father never regarded me as property and neither does

my southern born husband. It's not a southern thing, it's a sexist thing. Not all men in the south are sexist...and anyone that makes excuses for them? Well, I'd wager they're sexist and just want to keep being sexist.


You are still trying to get people to adapt to the bigotry...it's time to make the bigots adapt to equality. No matter how bad it hurts the bigots to do so.
It's the bigots that are wrong...and they should never be treated as if they are right.

[true_notes]

86. Magically 2 people

represent the south. You are working some pretty smart words up tonight.

And believe it or not, YOU are considered a bigot to some in some way, so YOU are in fact wrong in things too.

That's beside the point...

I'm not trying to get people to adapt to bigotry, but I'm trying to stir the thinking pot to how we can win the election.

Solly, are you happy with bush in office? My primary instinct is hell no, right? Wouldn't you want him out by someone such as John Edwards, Howard Dean, etc, and further down the road a more progressive candidate? YES we all would. This is what I'm trying to get at. We have to start slow there in the south. It is a slow place. YOU on the other hand want to stir hot shit up by calling me a bigot and a womanizer when I am the complete opposite.

I just want what's good for the country.

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[true_notes]

94. You gave up on the "fallacious arguments" that you stirred

so No, I got the better half.

[Solly Mack]

96. You really need to keep your fallacies straight

In one thread you whine about not letting the past stop the future..yet in another you say how the past changes how men feel about women in the south...


you whine about the word sexist...yet you defend how the south isn't going to change it's paternalism overnight...got news for you sweetie, paternalism IS sexism.



Cheers!

and anyone that tells feminists to shut up about equality (female President), IS a sexist. :)

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Solly Mack]

99. Hmm..you sound familiar with this last post

very familiar...

[ultraist]

104. WHAT?

"whining" "feminism to the point of exploding" "extreme in your cause"

Typical oppressor methods of silencing. Don't you have any new tricks in that bag? These are getting really quite boring. :boring:

[Lone_Star_Dem]

114. "Women in the south are regarded as property of the man. Period."

Simply not true. You need to travel to other parts of the south and see what is going on there if that's they way it is in your world. Speak of a generalization! Where I am we face the same issues as the majority of other women in the US but I've never been reduced to being property.

You see, that grit the you referred to being respected in the south, it applies to all genders and races. Yes, we don't have equal rights in this country, yet, but that's not exclusive to the south.

For the record, I don't know a single female in my little southern town who wouldn't tear your head off and serve it to you on a platter for that statement. We are not a pack of meek little follower's as you've been misled to believe.

[Daphne08]

119. That's hogwash and you know it!

[Syrinx]

129. "Women in the south are regarded as property of the man"

I don't know who you hang around with, but that's bullshit. I wonder if you're really a Southerner... or even a Democrat.

[cap]

143. i think people are projecting statements by the

Southern Baptists like "men are head of the family. A woman should be subservient to her husband. A woman needs her husband's permission to work outside the family" to be representative of ALL Southerners.

You just dont have a major Southern institution rebutting these remarks.

[southlandshari]

154. "Women in the south are regarded as property of the man. Period"

That is a pretty broad brush there, and does more to reinforce outdated stereotypes here than much that is written by non-Southerners. I grew up in Alabama and was never treated like property by any man in my life.

[Cleita]

67. ...

If we change the electoral system to a popular vote system, the south becomes small peanuts. We don't need them. Maybe having decent progressive governments for a change might change their minds faster, when they start enjoying the benefits, than pandering to their bigotry ever will.

I mean the poster saying that his parents voted for Bush because he was from Texas says it all to me. I'm tired of idiots making decisions for me with their votes.

[true_notes]

69. If your tired of them voting....

then you are tired of democracy. BFEE owns you.

[Cleita]

98. I want real democracy, not democracy for the elitists, which

is what we have now. Apparently the BFEE owns the Democratic Party. None of our Democrats, other than Barbara Boxer is attempting to make the BFEE accountable.

[Syrinx]

130. I'm not sure whose comments I find more distasteful

Yours or the original poster.

[southlandshari]

153. Look at the faces in most Southern state legislatures

Plenty of color there. The majority of this country's African American population (I think last I read was 54%, according to the 2000 census, I can find a link if need be) live in the South. There are plenty of U.S. representatives from the South who are people of color as well. We haven't broken the color barrier in the U.S. Senate yet, but how many states in other regions have? If it was commonplace all over the country, Barak Obama wouldn't have been such a big deal.

I think folks underestimate the South when it comes to putting minorities in office. We ARE minorities, far more so than any other part of the country save large urban areas in certain states.

[JackDragna]

64. I couldn't disagree more.

Southerners only appreciate grit if the grit is shown by a Republican. If "grit" is shown by a leftist, it is characterized as something bad, depending on the Democrat. If it's a woman, she's a bitch. If it's a minority, it's an uppity (insert favorite epithet here). The Democratic party in the south has become so inexorably tied to defending the rights of people Southerners hate (blacks, intellectuals, Catholics, etc) that we have pretty much no shot of winning them back. It's not necessarily the Democrat's fault as much as it is a by-product of the Southern strategy used so successfully by the Republicans.

I have said it before and I'll say it again: every dollar spent on the South on presidential elections, and most campaigns for house and Senate seats, is wasted. The only chance we have to make any headway in this nation is in the Rust belt and midwest. Leave the South to rot. I wish I felt differently about my home here, but there is simply no turning around a region that becomes even more staunchly conservative the worse the situation gets for its citizens. We've bought the lie about how liberals cause all our problems and will not listen to anything else.

[true_notes]

70. If you leave the south to rot...

Then the pugs are in like sin. EVERYWHERE. What has gotten into us Dems that we give up so easily? Fight for what is ours! The south is full of hard workers who do not have time to educate themselves. We need a hardworking candidate that isn't afraid to educate them! I love my homeland, and hate to see it fall under the grips of a pseudo-totalitarian corporate shit pond, and that is what's happening. Fight for the south my friend, it will pay off :).

[JackDragna]

126. No, it won't.

Fighting for the South is a useless exercise. The people here will not appreciate it. How do you convince a group of poor white Southerners, for example, to care about issues related to jobs when they wholeheartedly endorse right-to-work laws? How do you make them care about tolerance and equality when they've been brainwashed into thinking there's some cabal of liberals out there trying to toss Christianity into the trash?

I would like nothing more than for the South to vote Democratic, but I think it needs to progress further before we can make any substantive gains. Specifically, I think we will be in a much better position in 20 years, when the vast majority of the dinosaurs from the segregationist era are dead. I can see the South slowly becoming more progressive, but until more progress is made within the political climate of the South itself we just cannot make any headway here.

[QC]

83. "Leave the South to rot."

Yeah, that strategy's been working so well for us these past few years we should keep doing it.

[ultraist]

95. LMAO!

Kerry did well by writing off the South, eh?

I suppose Clinton and Carter just got lucky.

[JackDragna]

125. LMAO!

Oh, yes, and that Southerner Gore did so well in those southern..oh, wait a minute. LMAO! He did horribly. That's why we should keep banging out head against the wall in a futile effort to convince people who want nothing to do with us to vote for our candidates. LMAO!

[JackDragna]

127. Wow. Your sarcasm belies a lack of knowledge.

Have we really left the south alone to focus our efforts on more worthwhile places? Last I checked, both Gore and Kerry made at least passing efforts to get Southern states to vote for them. Boy, look at the massive fruit it provided, too.

[quaoar]

133. I'm guessing you don't live in Alabama or Mississippi

Probably some place where you have no clue as to what makes the South tick.

Perhaps once you drove through the South with the windows up for fear you might be attacked by marauding bands of rednecks.

[southlandshari]

146. Can you name ONE "passing effort" Kerry made

to get Southern states to vote for him? Because he sure as hell didn't show up in Alabama. His campaign team encouraged Democrats from Alabama to get themselves up to Ohio and other "swing states" to impact the vote there.

And when people did, our state got blasted by "fellow" Dems for not going blue in November. Well, big freaking surprise.

[Syrinx]

147. well he sent Edwards to Birmingham for a fundraiser

Our "corporate" money was good enough for him, but our people weren't.

[southlandshari]

148. Exactly. n/t

[QC]

161. I can't remember any efforts at all, passing or otherwise.

I hope we have seen the last time we campaign in only four or five states.

[Syrinx]

131. your comments are "rot"

I, for one, don't hate blacks, intellectuals, Catholics, gays, Jews, Arabs, movie stars, Japanese-car owners, or cat lovers. But I do hate the people who hate certain people because of who they are. And that includes people who hate me because I was born, and live, in the South. I hate every form of bigotry that I can think of. And there are a surprising number of bigots at the big ol' DU, believe it or not.

[QC]

162. Yeah, but some forms of bigotry are acceptable, even admired,

among many "enlightened liberals and progressives."

[misanthrope]

79. Think so?...

...I would say that "perception" is indeed a part of the story.


http://www.al.com/news/mobileregister/index.ssf?/base/news/111675354623000.xml&coll=3

[kentuck]

84. They're waiting to hear the truth...

In the meantime, they will vote for the bullshit artist that sounds closest to their values.

[true_notes]

89. Vice a

Pretty boy with a vague past of disruptions. Pretty much everything southerners stand against, defiling military service, and decision making lacking. I'll say it once and I'll say it again, Kerry was a weak ass candidate, and had no hopes in the south. Period. The election proved that.

[OnionPatch]

100. I lived in the south for awhile

and my two cents says that, sure, there are those who are indoctrinated into the "southern strategy" mindset and will never change. But I don't believe they are the majority. I think totally giving up on the south is a mistake of monumental size. (Do you think the Republicans have given up on Dem strongholds?!) I think there is some leeway for change in the south and agree that the "grit" factor would be key in tapping into it.

[JackDragna]

128. The reason why Republicans can be successful anywhere..

..is because they're the ones pitching the easy message. I would love for us to campaign on Republican issues..patriotism, love of the country, being on the side of God..so easy to run, such strong emotional appeals. People everywhere eat that up. Democrats, however, have to explain to our sound-byte trained, attention-span addled citizens in less than 10 seconds why privatizing Social Security would be a train wreck.

Democrats are in the position of having to be the "smart" party. Even if we make sound bytes for our stances on things, our sound bytes still will require more explanation and mental processing than Republicans. That's why Republicans can win virtually anywhere, while Democrats are pretty much locked out of the South and Mountain west.

[autorank]

157. Well, that's right but we don't even pitch the smart message.

We need someone who will go South and fight for our cause, which is the cause of many southerners, of all races! The Republicans give out the easy message and they are the only messenger with any passion down South. We should go down there and just let is all hang out -- we've got very little to lose and our current strategy doesn't work.

This is one area where we can experiment, make daring moves, and not pay a price. We did win some of those states (Virginia, Arkansas, and Florida) but had them stolen due to election fraud. We need to be more optimistic about this.

I admire Dean for going down there and meeting the folks, doing grassroots work.

We need to fight everywhere!

[Book Lover]

103. I think everybody, urban and rural, thinks that way

Voters vote for the ballsy guy, the one who doesn't back down and who does it with a wink and a grin. Why else did Guiliani win over Dinkins? Sure wasn't on debating points.

[SouthernDem2004]

105. Lol, love the generalizing...

People seem to think there is a magical geographic boundary that changes people. Once you move to the South you must turn into an ignorant, sexist racist. You think scientist would study the effect that turns everyone in one location into the exact same person since all Southerners are alike. Imagine the weapon the military could develop. We could hit North Korea with our new "ignorant ray gun."

[WildEyedLiberal]

108. How to win?

Get control of the media, so people like your parents don't believe that the chickenhawk deserter was "ballsy" while Kerry the war hero wasn't.

[sandnsea]

112. duh

How can we ever win if Democrats are just as bamboozled by the media as the right wingers are? Don't they understand they'll just roll out some other lame Dem weasel line in 4 years?

:banghead:

[InfoMinister]

110. My Dad Said He Would Have Voted For Dean

I'm from the South too and I've wondered why my dad actually voted for Bush. He was a reluctant Bush voter who just said he just couldn't stand Kerry(He basically said he didn't feel any of them deserved to be president but out of fear of terrorism, etc. he voted for Bush). He actually said he would have voted for Dean since he felt he was a more consistent candidate who seemed to stand up for himself which is something he felt Kerry never did. He also said he didn't like how Kerry looked. He claimed he could tell from someone's face if they were a crook and he thought Kerry looked like a crook. Ugh! Well, at least he believed Bush was a crook too. I just wish he'd have voted for nobody if he didn't like either one of them.

[autorank]

179. Great username! Well, that's good news about your dad.

I want a presidential candidate that just rips the shit out of the Republicans, calls them what they are -- a bunch of lying bastards who sell their people down the river.

BTW, unless you're making more than about $250,000 a year, you are totally screwed by any Republican presidential candidate. That message applies in the South and the rest of the country.

We, the Democrats, let the odious Nixon steal the South by playing the race card to make people forget their economic and policy interests. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice shame on me and the assholes who are giving me information. This applies to the entire country. Lets get a candidate who just hates Republicans and let him/her rip.

NEW LEADERS FOR A NEW DEMOCRATIC PARTY

[oxbow]

111. Couldn't hurt to try being ballsy

democrats are about as powerless as they can get right now.

[Joe Chi Minh]

113. They already voted Dem, big time.

Don't worry. It seems even simple folk know what purple hearts signify.

[Joe Chi Minh]

115. "Deep inside every southerner

is that yearning for the days of Roosevelt's New Deal. The old guys pass stories of the depression and how Roosevelt was the south's, not to mention the nation's savior".

Then why did your parents vote for a capitalist oil baron, who'd made the poor and even the middle classes much poorer in his first term, instead of Kerry, an accredited war hero who promised a New Deal? There's simple and there's unconvincing.

[WildEyedLiberal]

120. My thoughts exactly

Some "yellow dog" Dems. Hell, even non-yellow dog Dems think Bush is awful. Something smells.

[Joe Chi Minh]

145. You bet, WEL...

The content and even the style of his text.

We knew they'd never give up trying to marginalise Kerry, the man who'd whupped the neocons from here to beggary, and they sure haven't let us down, have they!

Hillary, Deane, etc, good strong Dem leaders, but they'll even push for them, ANYONE rather than John Kerry.

I'm still mystified to see the passionate way some of the people here keep touting Clark, too. His Republican credentials could hardly have been more impressive, could they?

[Joe Chi Minh]

164. In fact, I just can't imagine anyone else

from a working-class background like me, being so simplistic as to call his/her own parents "simple", because they are unworldly - certainly not to strangers.

And the reason is that non academically-educated people usually set an example to their children of higher priorities in human affairs than ambitious go-getting and money-grubbing, even though they will be pleased to see their children in secure well-paid jobs. And their childen are not ever able to forget that that is the only true intelligence worthy of the name.

When Republican operatives try to boast about being "rednecks", above all, in this political context, they sound stupid in a way that the people they so fulsomely patronise, never do. And that's the biggest give-away of all.

[Yellow_Dog]

117. Born and raised in the Mountains of NC, and I am also a redneck

and I wear that badge with pride.

I am happiest out in the woods with my dogs, sitting by a river or pond, drive a 4x4 pickup, and enjoy my Bud also.

Several times I have attempted to start a thread here on why Bush won the south without any problems at all.

The reason; the democratic candidate was unelectable in the south for many of the reasons you stated that Bush won, he has appeal to the majority of the voters in our part of the country.

How was this received, insults, name calling, that fact that I did not have the right to speak my mind as my posts tally does not say 1000+, to the point that the moderators here deleted one thread completely, and locked another.

My impression is, and remember that I am only a proud redneck, is that if they don't pay attention to what beat them the last time they will certainly setting themselves up to loose in '08. But what the heck, I'm just some dumb redneck, never mind that there are millions of us.

[autorank]

160. We need to listen to you...fight the good fight everywhere.

We don't have that far to go in the South. Basically, we get killed with white voters (look at the percentages). Dean said it clearly, the Republicans use race to divide white and black people with the VERY SAME INTERESTS.

What the hell is wrong with shouting that truth. All we need is about 20% more of the white vote and we're 'the beast.'

BTW, I don't know if you're in the hills or not but I'm sure you know that in the Civil War, the term "Hill Billy" referred to North Carolinians living in the hills who opposed the war because they knew it had nothing to do with their interests. I'm a big Hill Billy fan!

Keep the faith from a fellow Yellow Dog.

[SCRUBDASHRUB]

170. Welcome to DU, Yellow_Dog.

[bluestateguy]

121. Target Florida, and write off the rest

Southern Appeasement is not a good strategy.

But at the same time the Democratic nominee in 2008 should also target Colorado, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, Montana, Missouri and South Dakota.

[cap]

122. plant the seeds in the South... Demographics are achangin'

a lot of transplants are movin' in. A lot of minorities too.

The question is will they change the culture or will the culture change them?

The South is the fastest growing region demographically. Cant write it off. Gotta change it.

[Syrinx]

132. what about Texas

[bluestateguy]

135. Texas should be the first state written off

Right up there with Utah, Idaho, Alabama, Mississippi, etc. Just flyover territory as far as I'm concerned.

[cap]

138. TX will be majority non-white in 10 years

we need to build the party. We cant ignore it and then run out during an election year and build up the party. We need to work on the Hispanic, black, and dispossessed white coalition. This takes time.

[bluestateguy]

140. Many of those Hispanic people are under 18 or non-citizens

So it will be a lot more than 10 years before Texas is 50%+ non-white voters.

[cap]

142. nope go check the demographic trends...

TX will tip non-white within 10 years... that's why DeLay had to redistict... He bought time for the republicans.

[bluestateguy]

144. Remember, I said voters, not people

If you have a big glut of people that are not yet 18 and/or are non-citizens, that will be counted in the raw population totals, but not the pool of eligible voters in the electorate.

Oh, don't forget all the people in prison in Texas, that takes out a lot of non-white voters too, but they will be counted in the population.

It will take longer than 10 years for the Texas electorate to be majority non-white, even if the population is majority non-white in 10 years.

Also, Texas Hispanics appear more willing to vote Republican than Hispanics in California or New York.

[cap]

172. there are many Hispanics under the age of 18 right now

soon they will be voters. Non-white felons do depress the totals but not that much. Also, the redistricting was a big set back.

But, The non-white majority factor is already playing in Houston politics.

This is a long term project... no doubt about it. But it will come.

[Bouncy Ball]

181. Well then why don't you just take your own advice and

write off Texas.

We're fine, we can do it without you and your attitude.

[QC]

163. Quite right, old chum. Be done with the silly flyover rotters!

[Bouncy Ball]

180. Hey bluestateguy

the Democrats in Texas who are working their asses off to reclaim their state, say "fuck you very much for caring."

I'm one of them. :grr:

[bluestateguy]

184. Don't worry, I'm already on my way out within the next 12 months

I intend to take my vote to a state where it will matter.

[Bouncy Ball]

186. Oh you're IN Texas.

Well, actually your vote would matter more here than some place where they have more than enough Dem votes.

But yeah, bye.

[bluestateguy]

187. The "Dream Team" in 2002 was my last straw

The TX Democrats could have claimed victory by winning one, JUST ONE, of those races. Just one. Instead, they lost every race. All but one race was a double digit loss. All that fund-raising, mobilizing and chatter. For what? A clean sweep.

That tells me that it's time for Texas Democrats to move to swing states where their votes will be more valuable. Hence, I am taking steps to move to a swing state in time for the 2008 election (maybe in time for 2006), like Ohio, Pennsylvania, Florida, New Hampshire, New Mexico, Nevada, Missouri, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa or Colorado.

[QC]

158. Yeah, writing off the South has worked so well for us these past few years

that we should just keep doing it. Just ask john Kerry what a brilliant strategy it is.

[bluestateguy]

185. The only one who wrote off the south was McGovern in 1972

In 1980, Jimmy Carter targeted the south very hard, and lost all but his home state of Georgia.

In 1984, Walter Mondale targeted Florida, Texas and Georgia and lost those states badly.

In 1988, Michael Dukakis targeted Texas, Florida, Arkansas and Louisiana. Zero electoral votes.

In 2000, Al Gore targeted Arkansas, Tennessee and Florida. He lost the former two, and made Florida close enough to be stolen by Jeb Bush's people.

In 2004, John Kerry began the campaign by targeting Tennessee, Virginia, Louisiana, Arkansas and Florida. In all of those states, save Florida, Kerry's poll numbers were so bad that one by one he had to pull his ads out. He lost Florida by over 4%.

I happen to think if a Democratic presidential nominee wins Florida, then the rest of the south is rather unnecessary. Florida could have 29 electoral votes by the 2012 election.

[LuPeRcALiO]

123. hmm... what about Al Gore and John Edwards?

"The south will vote Dem if there's balls involved."

I kinda think ANYBODY at the top of the Dem ticket is going to get the SBVT treatment, and if you think they have balls now, wait 'til they've been smeared to the tune of several hundred milllion.

[B Calm]

149. I'm sick of pandering to the south! It's time for the south to wake

the hell up! We need a pro union, pro labor, northern bred Politician.

[derby378]

151. And one who will renounce the assault weapon ban

See the problem? You might need a Southerner for this job, otherwise the Southern states are gonna stay red.

I like Kerry, but he's no longer the right man for the job.

[B Calm]

165. I still say screw pandering to the red necks! It's about putting

into office someone who backs the working class and workers rights!

[southlandshari]

167. Most rednecks ARE working class Americans. n/t

[autorank]

173. That's absolutely right. Economic class is the key issue, not regoin or

ethnic identity. Enough regional bashing. We have to make our case with a candidate who has credibility in making the case.

That's why I like to say...

NEW LEADERS FOR A NEW DEMOCRATIC PARTY

[B Calm]

174. Well then they better start waking up. When one works for a paycheck

and votes for cheap labor cons, they are shooting their selves in the foot for their bosses entertainment!

[derby378]

190. That's fine...

...I back the right of every eligible working man to own an M1 rifle.

[QC]

159. Yeah, Mondale, Dukakis, and Kerry worked for well for us.

Maybe we could put two of them on a ticket. We'll lose 49 states, but at least we won't be "pandering."

[ultraist]

175. Pandering to the South? Kerry didn't even campaign in the South!

He wrote it off early on. He spent VERY LITTLE money here and virtually no time.

[lonestarnot]

139. Blah blah blah

[Hobarticus]

155. Kerry had balls to spare...he actually WENT to Vietnam

I'm not saying I disagree with you, but the public was offered a genuine combat veteran on one hand, and a yellow silver-spoon drunkard on the other. They chose the latter, and it involved a lot more than just a choice between grit and brains. Bush is an idiot and a coward; he loses on both counts. So why did he win?

[WI_DEM]

156. Yeah, Bush sure had "grit" and "balls" that is how he avoided

serving in Vietnam while that "brain" Kerry was getting how many purple hearts?

[nickshepDEM]

166. Good post... And this is exactly why Im supporting Mark Warner in 2008.

The man refuses cater to the right or the left. He does'nt wait to poll before he acts... He just does the right thing, and goes on with the rest of his day.

[SCRUBDASHRUB]

168. Welcome to DU, true_notes.

[noiretextatique]

171. there is nothing particularly special about the south or southerners

we cannot keep feeding into the balkanization that works for republicans because it doesn't work for democrats. the kind of candidate you are talking about: one who isn't trying to appear to be a mealy-mouthed moderate, would have broad appeal all over the country. i agree with some others: it's not just about "winning back" anyone...it's also about people making better choices.

[Bouncy Ball]

182. So I have a few questions:

1. Does this mean people in the north don't care about "balls?"

2. Does bush actually HAVE courage, or is he just a little weenie who likes to play dress up and pretend? (Answer: the latter.) So in that case, do you mean that southerners like candidates who just ACT like they have balls? (And are any of them who voted for him aware that bush is from CONNECTICUT?)

3. Not a question but a comment: the south is far too large and heterogeneous anymore to be able to make sweeping generalizations about what will work and what will not work.

BUT, I strongly dislike this "fuck the south, who cares?" attitude that some Dems have adopted, such as one on this thread who is ready to write Texas off. Dems like that forget that there are Dems in EVERY ONE of the fifty states and many of us are working our asses off to change things.

Oh, I'm a seventh-generation Texan. Before that, we were from Georgia.

[Bouncy Ball]

183. I just looked at your profile.

You live in Italy???

[Fifth of Five]

188. Politics is a contact sport....

"The south and midwest are about grit. That's all they want to see in anything, from football to a congressional election. If you have balls, they will vote...period. This goes without saying you have must have a brain to sway the educated. All in all, you have to have the package to win, not just a brain such as Kerry."


I think this quote sums up a large percentage of the Southern world view. Everything is a contact sport in the South - football, pro wrestling, NASCAR (watch sometime if you don't believe it). In many places cock fighting and dog fighting are still popular, if illegal, underground sports.

Politics is also a contact sport. You have to be willing to bloody your opponent to get the respect of a large percentage of rural white males. That's why the same type of candidate should appeal to any rural area of the country - South, Midwest, West.

Unfortunately, it's not always just what you say, but how you say it. And they will not stand for being ignored as we have done in the recent past. Gore lost Tennessee because he ignored Tennessee. Bush was here almost every month during the campaign. We rarely saw Gore - he took the state for granted.

[sectorzero]

191. "Balls" is only part of it. A Dem would have to move right to win.

I just think after Clinton and Carter (southern boys who 'betrayed' southern conservative Dems by supporting some liberal policies), a Dem candidate truly has to be to the right on certain issues, especially the cultural issues like gun control, abortion, gay rights and feminism. The key thing to understand about the South is that it is a very macho culture - regardless of race. Black male southern voters are every bit as conservative on social issues as their white counterparts.

The only type of Dem who could win in the South is a southerner or midwesterner who is to the right on cultural issues and defense, but to the left on social programs, trade, civil rights - someone like Harry Truman or LBJ.

[JimmyJazz]

192. I could not possibly disagree with you more. The problem with

moving more "right" is that you then become "Repub-lite." I think in order to win, the Democrats need to nominate a STRONG anti-war candidate who keeps Jesus out of people's bedrooms and off women's bodies.

I can't believe you think a pro-war candidate is what is going to win it for the Democrats. War is not an economic policy.