About FreeRepublic and DU

[tavalon]

I've heard people compare the two places as though we are pretty similar except they are the far right and we are the far left(I don't agree but that's not what this is about). So, I thought, "hey, how many of them are there?". Our numbers are posted on the lobby page of DU. I ventured over to the nasty freeper lair and I couldn't find that information.

Anybody here know that information?

[merwin]

1. There's at least 12 people. Maybe 13.

[tavalon]

2. Cute

and there's a part of me that thinks you are spot on. But I'm seriously wanting to know. Why is it that they don't advertise their numbers? We do.

[ComerPerro]

13. Based on their "outings" and "protests"

I would say that 12 or 13 is about right. That's the most I've ever seen at a FReeper event.

[applegrove]

7. Yup. 13. That is all the neocons. My they recycle. I guess Bolton

& Wolfie have the time to post.

[Jara sang]

3. It is actually a C.I.A. front operation

They contract the work out to prison inmates, that is why at times they are so incoherent. Whole thing is run on a budget of about $150 a week with about 20 cons doing 24 hour rotating shifts on ten terminals.

[IChing]

5. I heard it was out sourced to Uzbekistan

under the control by the CIA psy-ops crew.

[oasis]

4. Hard to say since a majority of freeps are half-wits. Two half wits equal

one person of Laura Bush's intelligence.

[tavalon]

6. Aw, now come on,

Laura Bush would probably be plenty smart if she wasn't Xanaxed out of her frickin' mind. It's hard work to think when you take as much mind numbing medicine as she does!

[oasis]

12. I took the Xanax into account. The pig on "Green Acres" would be no

match for her in a contest of wits. Provided the pig was Xanaxed too.

Laura, you go girl :yourock:

[DiverDave]

23. Arnold Ziffle was on DRUGS??!!

I'm SHOCKED...LOL

[Yupster]

37. It was the Sixties

Leave him alone.

[tavalon]

8. The thing that got me thinking about this

is the memorial day check in threads here and there. I admit I haven't viewed all of the posts to the one here nor there. But the post count to their thread is 156 and ours is 800+. Is that a testament to how much more we actually walk the walk or is it just an indication of how much larger this community is.

[Erika]

9. Who cares? n/t

[tavalon]

10. I'm interested in an actual answer

but I wouldn't say I care all that much. Just curiosity. It keeps my mind young, that curiosity.

[Erika]

11. Intellectual curiosity is a good thing n/t

[IChing]

16. You can get the info from this site

but have to pay a fee. Its free for two weeks,

http://www.sitemeter.com/default.asp?action=home
it reveals in graphic terms

Page Views
per Visit Site
Tracking Web
Browsers

Day Month

Durations
Month

Time Zones
Language
OS
Domain
Organization


Browser Share
JavaScript

[Bandit]

28. Keep in mind DUs numbers are not really accurate

That number is every single person who has ever registered at DU. Over the years there have been at least two trolls that I know of that have been tombstoned and many DUers that have gone by the way side. I would venture a guess that there are not more than a couple of thousand that regularly post. Just a guess though and I just don't ever go to Frei Republik so have no idea at all of their numbers. Hate is very popular in America so I would bet there are a lot of them.

[ldf]

40. pish tosh

i bet there are few who have registered, left, and never come back to take a look-see at what is hot/not. of course that doesn't count the tombstoned trolls. but they probably just register under another name.

the REAL lurkers are probably many times the registered members.

du is much larger than the posting base (that ripple effect).

on the one hand, posting is anonymous. you can type anything you want (within the rules).

BUT

once you post something, it is out there for the rest to tear to shreds.

so, even posting anonymously takes a little guts. i'm sure there are a lot who don't want to be made to look silly/stupid/whatever, and won't post.

the lurkers probably lurk here because they see others with similar thoughts and opinions.

so, all in all, i think du is the most significant progressive site on the web. the research that du'ers do here, once they sink their teeth into an issue, is incredible.

du ROCKS!

:toast:

[dweller]

14. do you want the numbers

in total poundage, or collective IQ?

for the totals are at opposite ends of the spectrum.
dp

[Spinzonner]

15. Well, they have periodic purges

of the not sufficiently pure of soullessness so it's hard to get an accurate count.

[Swamp Rat]

17. Here they are! Count 'em:

:D

[Straight Shooter]

18. FreeRepublic has 666 members. n/t

[shimbo]

19. FreeRepublic versus DU memes

You might be interested in these graphs.

These aren't hard numbers, but they're a rough proxy for
rate of growth -

#

[Jim Lane]

20. Alexa data: FR gets many more visitors, but page views are about equal

Alexa.com surveys traffic on internet sites. It has FR (rank: 1,367) well ahead of DU (rank: 4,206). The rankings take account of both the number of page views and the number of different users. Alexa doesn't track the number of people who post to a site or who are registered as members.

Here's Alexa's comparison of the site's reach for the past six months: http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?&compare_sites=freerepublic.com&y=r&q=&url=democraticunderground.com
(Reach is the number of different visitors.) Many more people visit FR.

But while you're at that site, click on the "Page Views" tab. The two sites are very close through March, then there a couple of Freeper bubbles, but now it's back to being close again. If DU is generating the same number of page views from a significantly smaller number of distinct visitors, it means the average visitor reads more of the stuff that's on DU.

All these data come with a major caveat: Alexa compiles its statistics from the Alexa Toolbar that it offers. The Alexa Toolbar is compatible only with MSIE running on Windows. I'm now using Firefox instead of MSIE, so my visits to DU (and, OK, I admit it, occasionally to FR) will never be included in the rankings. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a correlation -- that progressives are more likely to use Macs or open-source software like Firefox or Linux, while the RW is more content to follow Microsoft. If so, that would distort the data.

Here's Alexa's explanation of its ranking methods, in more detail: http://pages.alexa.com/prod_serv/traffic_learn_more.html

On edit: I should've mentioned that, although DU trails FR on Alexa's measurements, a rank in the 4000 rank is still good. For a couple other comparisons, weeklystandard.com is at 8,801, and the DNC's website, democrats.org, is at 20,946.

[Old and In the Way]

21. What we don't know is how much freeping they do on their own site

I look at the posters and don't see anywhere near the breadth of posters here....seems like they same people are on all their threads. Since they've made "freeping" a household word and are proud to admit that they will vote in polls multiple times, I have no doubt that they automate their own hits to make them look larger than they are.

It's the Republican way....

[ConsAreLiars]

22. Alexa reports numbers only for those who install this Spyware

on their machines. Why people do this is hard to understand, other than the sort of pathology which is represented at FR: http://securityresponse.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/spyware.alexa.html

[blondeatlast]

30. That's what I thought. Indicates we are vastly more intelligent and

security-savvy than they are.

[ET Awful]

24. Actually, what it implies is that Freepers are too stupid to not install

spyware on their machines.

It would appear that DU'ers are smart enough to either not install spyware or to figure out how to remove it after it appears.

[magellan]

26. Those rankings are bogus

The numbers are skewed by the different ways DU and FR present themselves to search engines, and specifically how that impacts Alexa ranking, using its toolbar.

Alexa ranks through 'reach' and 'pageviews'. From the site: "Reach is determined by the number of unique Alexa users who visit a site on a given day. Pageviews are the total number of Alexa user URL requests for a site." Alexa also ignores subpages unless it's a personal website.

FR's top level "focus" area (latest threads) and keyword search are on its homepage. Also, and most important perhaps, anyone can search their forum. So if you type the word 'filibuster' into the Alexa toolbar you'll get FR's keyword search page among your results, which lists all the posts on FR with that word in them. By contrast, DU's search function isn't public.

This holds true for other search engines. I use a tool called Webferret that searches multiple search engines all at once. A search on 'filibuster' returns the FR homepage and keyword page in my results. The only page I get for DU is an article by Alex Sator from 2003.

I have very little doubt that this explains FR's Alexa ranking. It isn't necessarily true that they get more traffic than DU. (In fact I seriously doubt it does.) But there's simply no way of knowing for sure -- using Alexa, anyway -- because of the different ways DU and FR are set up.

[CarefullyLiberal]

36. Very interesting...

I thought your post was interesting and well written, however, I would like to ask you about one portion if I could.

"...that progressives are more likely to use Macs or open-source software like Firefox or Linux, while the RW is more content to follow Microsoft"

This is a fascinating and truly astounding claim! Do you have any evidence that could back such a statement up?

Not trying to stir things up here but I'm interested how you came to that conclusion.

-Fergus

[Jim Lane]

47. Correlation between progressivism and open source?

The only thing that stirs me up in your post is the last sentence, which seems to imply that I can't take anything remotely resembling criticism. What do you think I am, a Freeper? :)

As to your question, I can't help you much. I was presenting Alexa data, which are not obtained through random sampling of all Internet users, so I sort of automatically asked myself whether the sampling method would introduce any bias. I didn't exactly "claim" that Freepers would be more likely to be sampled; I said, "I wouldn't be surprised if there's a correlation...." So, although you ask a good question, I'm afraid I can't give you any hard evidence.

You might find this article interesting, though: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/05/technology/05systems.html?ei=5090&en=269f1a83d00e9e51&ex=1246766400&partner=rssuserland&pagewanted=print&position= It's a New York Times piece from last summer, "Knowing Their Politics by the Software They Use", reporting that the Kerry and DNC sites both went with open-source software. Bush and the RNC chose Microsoft. (Side note: The Clinton Administration brought the antitrust case against Microsoft; when Bush got in, the case was essentially dropped.) My comment was based on my feeling that there was a general affinity in attitude, for which the Times provides some evidence: "(T)hose who find the cooperative, open-source ethos appealing tend most often to be libertarians, populists and progressives. Not surprisingly, open-source software was well represented in Howard Dean's Democratic presidential primary campaign...."

I wish some pollster would ask whether Firefox users were more likely to vote for Kerry than were MSIE users. My guess would be "Yes", but it is just a guess.

[CarefullyLiberal]

48. Reply

Jim Lane,

Thank you very much for your well thought out reply.

Since arriving at this website late last year I have seen a few posts regarding a correlation between open source and mainstream software use and I'll be darned if I can see it myself.

I'm a moderate liberal and I own a company that makes use of almost no open source software. My reasons are numerous but I will list a few:
1.) Microsoft product just work, particularly if the OS is installed on a computer that is on the Hardware Compatibility List.
2.) I'm an MCSE on NT, 2000, and 2003. You could say I'm very familiar with the platform and what it takes to keep it going.
3.) While Sun OS (basically Berkley UNIX) was my first OS and I have played with Linux for over 10 years and have used all the famous distros. I wouldn't even consider pushing out Linux to an employee's desktop computer, but I would consider it for something like a non-important web server or a high volume print server.

My reasons for using MS products are a little off topic but I still don't see a correlation between liberals using open source and conservatives using MS products.

Last time I checked, Bill Gates is one of the largest contributors to charity in history. He's given more that Linus Torvalds for sure.

If Dean and Kerry were open source users last year I suspect it might be because their IT people choose that platform as opposed to the candidates mandating it. However, it would be a good question to ask Dean or Kerry if I ever run into them.

Thanks again for your well thought out reply.

Take care,

-Fergus

[johnaries]

38. How many of those page views are DUers looking for a laugh?

:shrug:

[mongo]

43. Damn, maybe I should be posting over there

whenever someone has an anti-porn message.

It's funny but the pro and anti porn sentiments run about the same on FR and DU. It's weird being hated by elements on both sides.

I'd much rather play with you guys over here...

[AngryAmish]

25. We are not like FreeRepublic

They are subhuman filth. I still don't understand that a just and free society would allow that garbage to have a public forum to spew their hate.

[tavalon]

27. You answered that one yourself

We are a just (sort of, not as much as in other times) and free (for now) society. I hate what they say, but I will defend their right to say it. The mark of a liberal.

[woo me with science]

31. thank you!

i am always stunned when people on this board advocate suppression of free speech. geez.

[jmowreader]

29. There's no way to know

You can't ask Jim Robinson. He probably doesn't know himself, and if he did he'd tell you "130,000 members"--about twice as many as DU reports.

You can't believe Alexa stats. Freepers would all install the Alexa Toolbar (buying Windows machines specifically to read FR if they had to) just so they could freep Alexa. OTOH, not all DUers could run Alexa Toolbar if they wanted to, and not all DUers who could run it would.

I also don't go by the number of people at FR rallies. There are two reasons for that.

The most important is that freepers tend to be of the class that was hit hardest by Bush's policies. While blaming Clinton for everything Bush has done wrong does tend to bring them closer, the fact that they've gone from building cars for $25 per hour under Clinton to changing the oil in them for $8 per hour under Bush means they don't have the disposable income or the vacation time necessary to travel to Washington to demonstrate in support of Dubya's war.

The second is they're the kind of people who like to live vicariously. Let's throw out a scenario: a freep in Cincinnati. Cincinnati's fairly conservative, so there are probably quite a few freepers there. They may even have a chapter and let's say it has 100 members. Okay, so let's have the Cincinnati Chapter of Free Republic have a big pro-war march on Monday. We'll even announce it on FR three weeks in advance. You'd get TONS of "I can't make it, but God Bless You" messages on the thread--from freepers who live in Cincinnati. The rally itself would be attended by twenty to thirty people, plus spouses and children to bring it to maybe 100 total attendees. Remember, this is on Memorial Day--most people don't work then. The Cincinnati paper, of course, would run a super tight close-up of the freep and claim that "hundreds" of conservatives attended.

My opinion? Between 7,000 and 8,000 people have ever registered on FR, and possibly 4000 of them remain. Robinson's mods are exceptionally vigilant to tombstone anyone who says a harsh word against Dear Leader, no matter how conservative that person may be.

[amandae]

32. It's amazing you can find anything over there

Their layout is HORRIBLE. It's difficult to see who is responding to whom. It's just one big mass of collective crap. Good luck finding anything, especially coherent thoughts and complicated pieces of information, like the number of members!

:hi:

[mogster]

34. I agree

I've tried to understand their info-structure, no success so far, lol! :D

[LiberalPersona]

39. Heck yes

They easily have the most incomprehensible forum design I've ever seen over there.

That's not a suprise though, they don't understand anything about the structure of a society either.

[aaronnyc]

33. According to court documents from year 2000: FR had 20,000 members

I did a Google search, and found link to a LA Times vs. Free Republic court case from 2000. Apparently, the LA Times was suing Free Republic for posting their archived articles against their wishes.

Anyway, according to a case study based on the court documents:
"Free Republic has approximately 20,000 registered participants. The website receives as many as 100,000 hits per day, and between 25 and 50 million page view each month."
http://www.tomwbell.com/NetLaw/Ch07/LATimes.html

Keep in mind : This is an estimated total, so I'm not sure how accurate it is. It is also from 5 years ago, so the totals have likely changed a lot since then.

[mogster]

35. DU is an information gathering community ..

FR is an information shaping community.

It's what's makes the difference between real data and propaganda.

[Blue Belle]

41. Anything left of John McCain or Joe Lieberman is considered...

"FAR LEFT" anymore. I think the DU is a pretty healthy mix of Democrats from every range of the "Left" scale.

[Cyrano]

42. Oh, c'mon people. Don't you know that freerepublic is a BushCo operation?

BushCo probably spends more money keeping them going than they do on armor for our troops.

On second thought, they've probably out-sourced the entire freerepublic operation to Halliburton.

[dogday]

44. DU Represents Freedom of Speech - while Freerepublic.com

takes pride in cultivating and manipulating their posters. I joined and there was a subject about Tom DeLay. All I posted - my very first post was that I thought it was time for people to stand up and take responsibility for their actions instead of blaming others for their actions. Well I barely got it posted when pow, went to post again and bam, no more posting privileges for me.

If you can remove someone from a board for what I said, there is a huge freedom of speech issue involved with that board....

[11 Bravo]

45. All I know is that the number of Porta-Johns at any freeper rally

is ALWAYS larger than the number of actual attendees. (But then again, they are really full of shit.)

[IChing]

46. I thought it was "The Free-Re-Butt-Lick"

but that's only my comparison