If you are not a feminist, you are not a progressive.

[Zenlitened]

Have a nice day. :hi:

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

1. ok.

:hi:

[Deep13]

2. and if you're not a progressive, you're suicidal.

[lonestarnot]

7. I wish that were so for sure!

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

70. Unfortunately, it's suicidal in the "72 virgins" sense, not in the

"goodbye cruel world" one.

[getmeouttahere]

3. care to elaborate?

[Dhalgren]

4. When you're right, you're right.

:hi:

[chicagojoe]

5. ok, bu what about masculinists? Do we not count? Well ?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

8. no.

Well, that's not my answer, but you might want to get your flame suit ready.

[chicagojoe]

19. I can take hotter flames than ANYBODY at DU can spew.

I just refuse to walk on eggshells.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

23. Good - I like that.

I just had this fight on Sunday. I've had my fill of being called a misogynist this week. But I'll keep an eye on this thread.

[Warpy]

9. that's "patriarchs," and you've already had your shot, thousands

of years of it.

How patriarchs expect the human race to progress while keeping half of it in ignorance and bondage is beyond me.

All you get is stagnation and hopelessness.

Have a nice day.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

10. And there's the first "evil men" post of the day!

Considering this entire thread is merely flamebait, I'm not surprised.

[Stuckinthebush]

22. Feminism isn't anti-man

It is about the critical analysis of societal power structures that keep women in a position of powerlessness.

I would agree with the original poster that progressive=feminist or anti-misogynist.

Progressive = anti-racist

Progressive = anti-homophobia

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

24. No, Warpy's statement is anti-man.

Not feminism. As I recall, feminism isn't man bashing. It's about obtaining equal rights. There's a huge difference.

[chicagojoe]

38. That's how I've always understood it.

Original poster didn't come off that way, though.

[Zenlitened]

49. We have a winner!

Congratulations and thank you! :toast:

[RaleighNCDUer]

25. Now, now. Men aren't evil.

They're just stupid.

And women are crazy.

It's what makes the world go 'round.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

27. Now there's the most honest post on DU today!

Everybody sucks - get a fucking helmet.

[chicagojoe]

15. It was always my understanding that the feminist movement

was about putting us all on a level playing field. Some "feminists" always sound like they want to be "in charge". Isn't this a bit hypocritical? And before you shoot off again, I am not a "patriarch".
I'm sure my sister and mom and wife and any other woman who has ever known me will be happy to tell you that I've never been "anti-woman".

[Mairead]

29. Your understanding is completely correct

Feminism is and always has been about equality and nothing else

[seabeyond]

43. well shut my mouth

ok not really. which is a woman thing. and here is the man doing the male thing, saying what about me, and what do women do wiht the issue. we talk to him. no not about dissing me. you hvae issue, talk

yet.......when men talking about feminism, what do we get

does say something doesnt it. males have issue lets talk, we are that good we can do women and men at the same time. has something to do with being a mommy. we mommies dont say, we are just going to take care of the girls. oh no. we take care of both girls and boys. we know how to do it. we are mommies.

lol lol
it always boils down to this.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

53. You might want to learn basic grammar.

It was an absolute struggle just to read that post, which has no grounds in this discussion in the first place. I don't know where you got any of that tripe from ChicagoJoe's statement.

[Lars39]

57. You are being offensive.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

60. I'm not trying to be, but the post really is hard to read.

Please tell me that post is grammatically correct in any way if you can. If you cannot, retract your comment.

[seabeyond]

62. i am not going to argue with you

whatever. dont read. i dont care. sometimes, i put out. in whatever manner. i send. read /dont. i try to be good a lot of the times though. you have a valid argument. challenging, my read is. lol

[Lars39]

64. "If you cannot, retract your comment."

Fuck that.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

71. okay, well fuck you.

[seabeyond]

61. lol lol lol

i thought it was all funny. lol,

you are cute

you know, life is feeling pretty good today lars. i think it is time to play.

tornadoes are comin, this afternoon. a day of swirlin energies, wink

have a good one

[Lars39]

67. It is funny, seabeyond!

Swirlin energies is right. :D

[Igel]

73. Didn't we have matriarchy for the

thousands and thousands of years before that?

I thought the big boom in patriarchy had to do with cattle and property.

[seabeyond]

28. tell me what your issues are. lets talk

you serious, then come on. it is not a battle between men and women. winner loser. i am all for win win. so lets talk

what is the masculinist issues

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

59. I'll take a shot at MY masculine issues.

Custody battles. They almost always currently favor women, unless the mother is a murdering crack addict, and that's not even a guaranteed win for the male. There are a lot of men who are and WANT to be terrific fathers that get simply pushed away by the system. There needs to be more equality in this arena.

The draft. I think all men AND women should be eligible for the military draft. There is no reason a man and a woman shouldn't have an equal risk of being killed in combat against their will.

A rebalancing of Title IX. Title IX itself HAS been invaluable in creating opportunities for women to excel in athletics. The problem is that no funding went along with Title IX. That needs to be changed. There needs to be Federal funding to help support athletic departments in public schools and universities so that men and women have the same opportunities WITHOUT having to take away opportunities for anyone. Robbing Peter to pay Paul (or Mary in this case) isn't moral.

Men's health. Greater research needs to be conducted for things like prostate cancer that affect only men. I believe this is probably a clear cut "grass is greener on the other side" issue, where men think women's health gets more attention and vice versa, but there should be no arguing that increased health research for ALL people is worth fighting for one way or another.

This isn't necessarily just a men's issue, but I think there needs to be a reform of the judicial system, such that neither the victim nor the accused are put before the spectacle of a public trial. It needlessly tarnishes the name of two people and creates an unhealthy media circus. I put this as a men's issue, because many men in particular have been victims of false prosecution for various violent crimes. By witholding the names of all involved in a trial until after a conviction is made, both the victim AND the defendant are not put through a media hell, and the innocent can remain innocent even after an unfortunate ordeal.

Domestic violence. Too many people think this only happens to women, but weapons are the great equalizer. There needs to be more resources and awareness of the problem of domestic violence against men.

[seabeyond]

69. i agree with you on custody issue

my brother battled 7 years for his daughter. spent over 150k to fight. i was raising his baby as i had my own babies and we were all tired. this was my first awakening to the unjust, in court system. we kept saying if we walk this in honesty and integrity it will be so obvious. it was so obvious, and the court system still fucked brother, ergo niece. he just got custody last summer. she is 12

i agree on the draft issue. i am not in battle with this. if you want to protest, i wil stand with you. i already have stood with you. i argue this whenever it comes up. now military has to quit raping the women too.

having been in a competitive sport, and scholarship to university with this sport, and in the late 70's early 80's calif, lol lol. i think there is plenty going to male sport. maybe they need to balance and bring into line football, but i am open into seeing if there is an unfairness. i am really good at seeing unfairness. not an issue for me


research it, that is cool, it is in a line with my family. and to suggest that men is unfair treated really is a silliness issue if looking at facts. which is cool. you werent sure on your stand. but it would just take too much time ot point out all the unbalance favoring male to even start

got in an accident. i hit a person. i was a mess. the camera was on me. i thought it such an invasion. asked cop to tell them to stop. he said sorry cant. i dont know what we can do with the media circus. i have started my part by refusing to see a bit of it. i follow the technical of the cases thru internet and listening here. but i will not watch all the disgusting shows. but sure whatever. i am there

well i think we all need to do individual and quit with the sweeping on here. to say womans fault, is wrong, to say men fault wrong. depends. both are a possibility. a lot more

i see it is both. my sil did it in a sneaky quite way, while my brother did it in a loud in your face way. i dont trust a womans story anymore than a mans story. these are stories full of anger and pain and fear. they are what they are

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

72. I appreciate your agreement on most issues

You don't have to agree with ALL of the issues. I'm sure you don't agree with every issue that someone labels a feminist issue. That is not the point.

The point is that there ARE issues that concern men that are not just trying to keep women down, as is the popular assertion.

[mopinko]

6. so true

thank you

[Deep13]

11. How come ...

... discrimination based on race is always a civil rights issue but discrimination based on gender is just a cultural peculiarity?

[KharmaTrain]

12. Where Does One Get Membership In This Club?

My wife is asking this question, since she's stood for many liberal and progressive issues and she doesn't consider herself a "feminist" or any other label...just being who she is.

Is there some membership requirements? Some kinda test ya gotta take? Some initiation rite that needs be performed? Ya listen to Rushbo and this club sounds sure like some real wild S&M group (and he's pissed cause he's never been invited to join).

So is there an application? Or a "feminist test"? Curious minds want to know

:sarcasm:

[Stuckinthebush]

30. Perhaps she isn't familiar with what feminism means

Many women and men have been indoctrinated by our society that the word "feminist" is bad. We also hear a lot of people say, "well I believe in civil rights and many liberal ideas, but I'm no liberal!" They say this because liberal has been turned into a dirty word by those that are most threatened by it.

Feminism is a movement and ideology and theory that highlights the historical patriarchal powers and how those powers have negatively affected our wifes, mothers, sisters, and daughters over the centuries. It is quite a beautiful ideological movement that if given a different name would be acceptable to all progressives.

It is a shame that the term has been co-opted by the right wing to signify man-hater.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

35. No, it's been co-opted by people like Warpy to mean "man-hater"

No zealot ever does justice to their cause. As is true for evangelists, so is true for feminists. Sad, but true.

[Stuckinthebush]

45. Well if so...

Warpy doesn't speak for feminism. (Note: I do not know warpy or her/his positions)

Feminism is NOT about man-hating.

[KharmaTrain]

40. It's A Concept...not quite a movement

There are various factions of that movement...some for the right to choose, other on job/wage issues, others on health issues and so on. It's the progression of women's own self determination over the years as much as anything else.

I don't find the term offensive and I agree it's been co-opted by the right wing...as it's a threat on their patriarchial system...much inbred over the same centuries women have fought to gain their rights. I suggest this will always be a struggle, but woman have made a lot of strides and the various woman's organizations have helped to further this progress.

IMHO, many women are conditioned, as are men, is a culture where women are still that "step behind a man" attitude. It's changing...and a far better situation than what faced my mother or grandmother, but I think this is a slow process as well. Our world has changed, women's roles and responsibilities have changed as well...there's just some out there who haven't been able to deal with this yet.

[Stuckinthebush]

47. Women's roles and responsibilities

should be the same as men's roles and responsibilities.

The fact that we still distinguish between which gender does what is a societal problem. Apart from roles that can only be accomplished by one gender (breast feeding and giving birth), there really is no use to tell our daughters and sons that they are to do X but not Y.

[KharmaTrain]

54. We Know It To Be True

It takes time for the rest of the world and society to do so, but I see that day being a lot closer now than it was when I was younger...and surely in generations past.

This week the local PBS station ran a program on the life of Emma Goldman...a fascinating look into what feminism was 100 years ago...the progress she and other women made, and their mistakes along the way. Examine the conditions women, especially immigrants in this country, faced at that time and it puts today's issues in a different perspective.

A lot of the sexual divide is religious and cultural...not based on science and reason, but on power, control and influence. Many religions still preach woman's secondary status to men...this is one of the biggest roadblocks to progress. Always has been.

The glass ceiling is cracked, and light is coming through...the problem on the other side is are women trying to be too much in their new roles of responsibility...being both the X and the Y. But that's another topic.

Cheers!

[lukasahero]

56. Actually by definition it is a movement

From www.dictionary.com

fem·i·nism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fm-nzm)
n.
- Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes.
- The movement organized around this belief.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

feminism
n
1: a doctrine that advocates equal rights for women
2: the movement aimed at equal rights for women

Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

[KharmaTrain]

63. This Still Isn't Organized...

like labor with an AFL-CIO, or religions in their various denominations. I see feminists as a variety of different groups...and each goal is a part of the equal rights struggle...no one represents all the interests in this way like the labor unions fight for their members.

NOW is a fine organization to promote women's causes, but they're more of a think tank these days...playing the beltway games.

[bryant69]

13. The world of moral certainty

Nice enough to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[murray hill farm]

14. for a feminist...

that was a mighty chauvinistic remark!

[Stuckinthebush]

33. Why?

Are you equating feminism with anti-man?

[murray hill farm]

no...equating chauvinism with chauvinism

get our your Websters and look up the word...especially consider the generalized nature of such a statement.

[Stuckinthebush]

51. Indeed you are correct

I had subconsiouly added the "male" to the front of the word:

Chauvinism is extreme and unreasoning partisanship on behalf of a group to which one belongs, especially when the partisanship includes malice and hatred towards a rival group. The term is derived from Nicolas Chauvin, a soldier under Napoleon Bonaparte, due to his fanatical zeal for his Emperor.

The term entered public use due to a satirical treatment of Chauvin in the French play La Cocarde Tricolore (The Three-colored Cockade).

The origin of the term and early usage indicate that it was coined as a term for excessive nationalism or patriotism. An equivalent English term is Jingoism. Today "Chauvinism" is most often used to reference racism or sexism. As an ideology, it is not a reasoned explanation of society, but an excuse for the way things are (or could be).

In "Imperialism, Nationalism, Chauvinism", The Review of Politics, p. 457, Hannah Arendt describes the concept:

Chauvinism is an almost natural product of the national concept insofar as it springs directly from the old idea of the "national mission." ... (A) nation's mission might be interpreted precisely as bringing its light to other, less fortunate peoples that, for whatever reason, have miraculously been left by history without a national mission. As long as this concept did not develop into the ideology of chauvinism and remained in the rather vague realm of national or even nationalistic pride, it frequently resulted in a high sense of responsibility for the welfare of backward peoples.

(See, for example, white man's burden.)

The word does not require a judgment that the chauvinist is right or wrong in his opinion, only that he is blind and unreasoning in coming to it, ignoring any facts which might temper his fervor. In modern use, however, it is often used pejoratively to imply that the chauvinist is both unreasoning and wrong.

In the United States, chauvinism as a perceived social problem was brought to the forefront of national politics by the feminist movement, and the use of male chauvinism as a synonym for anti-female sexism. The prototypical "male chauvinist" is the character of Archie Bunker in the hit television comedy All in the Family which explored the issue as a recurring theme.

[Village Idiot]

16. That's like saying if you are not a member of PETA or ALF,

You don't love animals...

or

If you are not a Zionist, you are not a Jew...

or

If you are not a racist, corporate shill obsessessed with the acquisition and abuse of absolute power, you are not a ReThuglican.

Wait a sec...

;^(

[Deep13]

34. I don't think so.

Feminism is merely the proposition that women should have equal footing in society as men. That is no how it is or ever has been and it is only radical for that reason. The other examples you mention are all extremist groups (especially that last one!) Feminists aren't.

[Stuckinthebush]

41. Those examples aren't really comparable

Feminism is not a club or group like PETA. It is not a religious organization, nor is it a political party.

The critical social theory aspect of feminism is very much connected to progressive ideals.

I think we would all agree that one can not be a progressive and be a white supremacist. Likewise, one can't be a progressive and be a misogynist. The ideologies just don't mesh.

[lukasahero]

More like if you are a member of the KKK

you aren't a progressive. I have to believe some things are obvious.

[Terran]

17. Question, enlightened one

Can I have ethical reservations about abortion and still be a feminist/progressive?

[chicagojoe]

21. Maybe not .

[Terran]

26. chicagojo, can I ask:

Is that your opinion, or is it what you think the answer will be from feminists? To clarify, I am pro-choice; but I also do have the aforementioned reservations about taking life. Of course, I'm not a vegetarian, so I'm a hypocrite.

[chicagojoe]

37. I think that would be the answer from the original poster,

and maybe others. I'm pro-choice with the same reservations. Of course, I will never have to make that choice, being male. My wife and I, however, have discussed this at length, and have decided that if it ever IS an issue in our life, we will act according to our situation at the time.

[Terran]

44. Cool, thank you

It's good to know that some others are in the same quandry I am. I get dismayed by some DUers' refusal to acknowledge the validity of said reservations.

[chicagojoe]

50. My attitude toward pro-choice people with reservations AND

anti-choice people is one in the same: If you don't like abortions, don't have one.

[Greybnk48]

18. True n/t

[Zynx]

20. Um, define "feminist"

You mean people in favor of equality, or do you mean the people who say "Women can do any job men can, even if they don't meet the physical strength requirements."

[iconoclastNYC]

31. feminist=identity politics

i was raised by a radical feminist.

i share her values but i am not a 'feminist', does that mean i'm not a progressive?

identity politics divides us.

why must we get so tied up with labels?

[tx_dem41]

32. I just love drive-by posts....

NOT.

Nothing like stirring the pot.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

36. if expect equal treatment for everyone am i a feminist?

i don't understand why it is important to draw distinctions like this. of course i expect and demand that women be treated fairly, but i don't arrive at this position simply by classifying myself as a feminist.

[MountainLaurel]

39. That's the definition of feminist

Believing that women are human too.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

52. indeed

here is what dictionary.com says:

feminism:

1. Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes.

2. The movement organized around this belief.


it seems strange to me that a word that is supposed to mean equality for the sexes is based on a particular gender. i would prefer something less gender specific like equal rights.

i understand the social climate most live in holds women at a lower status than their male counterparts, but still i find the terminology too gender specific. i think this semantic game confuses the issue. i think you would have many more people proclaim themselves as "feminist" if a different word was used that is more descriptively accurate.

i am not try to be contrary or anything, i just find a disconnect between what the word means and what it sounds like it means. Feminism sounds like it is entirely about females when as i understand it that is not the case.

[MountainLaurel]

58. I think the issue is

That men as a group haven't had to worry about being equal with women, so the language reflects the group trying to become equal.

[newportdadde]

42. Here wo go again.

:popcorn:

Predictions:

Thread will reach 150 posts then be locked.

Someone will accuse someone of having their 'Wheaties pissed in'.

:nuke:

[Kipling]

46. Feminists have given up too soon.

Nowadays everyone thinks the battle is over. So everyone talks as though men are evil and women are great, but they still think the other way round. It's a disaster. Men aren't allowed to criticise women in any way, which is bad for us, and then when something important comes up it's "Look, I'm not sexist, but the audience might be, so you won't be doing the presentation..."
Feminists should keep going, but they need to focus more on present-day discrimination than fighting the Nuclear Family, which is pretty much a dead concept. That calls for a less combative approach.

[sweetheart]

48. as much as its true, its an abuse of logic

You are a progressive, if you decide you are, and as life develops,
you'll come to mature in to whatever that is for you.

[Redstone]

55. Labels and words, yackita yackita yackita...

If everyone just treated everyone else with respect, there wouldn't be any need for arguments about words like "feminist" and "progressive" and so on.

I treat women with respect. Does that mean I'm a "feminist?" Fuck if I know, nor do I care. Labels mean nothing.

Redstone

[RaleighNCDUer]

65. That is a real big "if".

And since much of the world does not treat everyone else with respect, these labels are needed to clarify our own positions in opposition to those others, IOW, republicans.

[highlonesome]

66. I think it's completely possible...

...to seek gender equality and yet not be a feminist. To me, feminism -- in the US anyway -- hinges on the belief in a large net disparity in social power between men and women and that it's the result of the fact of living in a patriarchal society.

There are many people, like myself, who desire gender equality, yet don't really accept that we live in a truly patriarchal society. There are those of us who believe we live in a culture and society that is something wholly different and more complex than a straightforward patriarchy and therefore reject some of the central tenets of feminism.

[Misunderestimator]

68. Not a "straightforward" patriarchy, but surely you see the patriarchal

influences throughout our society?

Which central tenets of feminism do you reject?

[patcox2]

74. I don't define (and limit) myself by labelling

I do not want or need to put a big label on myself saying "I am a Feminist" or "I am a Progressive." I am me, I believe in many different ideas and values in varying degrees which can vary with context and situation.

So sad to see people trying to define who has the right to bear a label, arguing over it, even.

I am Patrick. I believe in absolute legal equality for people of every gender and sexual orientation, as well as equality of opportunity.

I am not into dwelling on the historical roots of chauvinism, nor do I believe I have any complicity because I am mired in a culture which embodies so many deep and subtle anti-woman blah blah blah shit.

I am whatever I want to be. Keep your labels and your entrance exams and your purity tests and all that hierarchical holier than thou shit.

[Moderator]

75. Locking...

This is flamebait and a continuation
of a discussion from another thread.



DU Moderator